The Free Speech Thread

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  • segoviussegovius Posts: 9,872member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Huh? Is that as far as you read? Did you read enough to realize that she was merely mentioned in this context:



    Did you read beyond that?



    Currently am doing but I needed a moment....



    It's kind of like if I ask someone to click a link on quantum physics and there's a reference to Christine O'Donnell's perspective in the first para.



    Kind of makes it tough but I'm persevering......
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by segovius View Post


    Currently am doing but I needed a moment....



    It's kind of like if I ask someone to click a link on quantum physics and there's a reference to Christine O'Donnell's perspective in the first para.



    Kind of makes it tough but I'm persevering......



    If it helps, I don't think the essay is particularly Randian. I was just so surprised to see that reaction, especially given the context in which she is mentioned.
  • segoviussegovius Posts: 9,872member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    If it helps, I don't think the essay is particularly Randian. I was just so surprised to see that reaction, especially given the context in which she is mentioned.



    It was Pavlovian. We are all conditioned...it just depends how.



    Which brings me to my major criticism of that article - which I agree with in large parts - we already live in such a society. People are persuaded (ie brainwashed) every second of every day.



    And it's bad.



    Because the power is vested in the 'persuaders' - and this is always the Govt. I would have thought that the ideal situation was no persuasion at all but loose groups of free-thinking individuals who join together for common purpose and to achieve certain goals.



    However, in a bigger picture which to be fair the article probably meant (though it is old - 1991 is a long time ago, things were different then) that persuasion works where force doesn't. I agree with this.



    The bit on drugs I could not agree with more....no-one ever asks why people take them.



    I have an example you might like from Afghanistan before the Russian invasion - then, under village Islamic law, if somebody stole something the court decided between two things:



    1) Were they insane



    2) Were they stealing for survival



    There were no other options - stealing for 'fun' was classed under the first category for example.



    If they were found insane they were acquitted. If they were stealing for survival - say food or something to sell to get food - then the entire village was fined.



    The idea was that in an Islamic society there could not be a situation where people would let someone starve or get into the position where they needed to steal. If it happened then the society had failed - the 'sin' was theirs not the thiefs.



    This seems somehow connected to the idea of the questioning of 'why' people take drugs and who should be punished for it.



    Btw - the North Whitehead reference is interesting - have you heard of Process Theology ?
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Incredible stuff being done by Joel Salatin:



    Polyface Farm, Part 1

    Polyface Farm, Part 2

    Polyface Farm, Part 3
  • floorjackfloorjack Posts: 2,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Incredible stuff being done by Joel Salatin:



    Polyface Farm, Part 1

    Polyface Farm, Part 2

    Polyface Farm, Part 3



    Friend of mine from high school owns his own butcher shop in Va and gets PolyFace meats. I'd love to try it some day.
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post


    Friend of mine from high school owns his own butcher shop in Va and gets PolyFace meats. I'd love to try it some day.



    Overall it sounds pretty good. We're too far away, but looking for similar stuff near we live. We have tried some local grass fed beef and it's pretty good. Much better for you too.
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:

    Sometimes it seems that the beau ideal of many conservatives, as well as of many liberals, is to put everyone into a cage and coerce him into doing what the conservatives or liberals believe to be the moral thing. They would of course be differently styled cages, but they would be cages just the same. The conservative would ban illicit sex, drugs, gambling, and impiety, and coerce everyone to act according to his version of moral and religious behavior. The liberal would ban films of violence, unesthetic advertising, football, and racial discrimination, and, at the extreme, place everyone in a “Skinner box” to be run by a supposedly benevolent liberal dictator. But the effect would be the same: to reduce everyone to a subhuman level and to deprive everyone of the most precious part of his or her humanity — the freedom to choose.



    The irony, of course, is that by forcing men to be "moral" — i.e., to act morally — the conservative or liberal jailkeepers would in reality deprive men of the very possibility of being moral. The concept of "morality" makes no sense unless the moral act is freely chosen. Suppose, for example, that someone is a devout Muslim who is anxious to have as many people as possible bow to Mecca three times a day; to him let us suppose this is the highest moral act. But if he wields coercion to force everyone to bow to Mecca, he is thereby depriving everyone of the opportunity to be moral — to choose freely to bow to Mecca. Coercion deprives a man of the freedom to choose and, therefore, of the possibility of choosing morally.



    The libertarian, in contrast to so many conservatives and liberals, does not want to place man in any cage. What he wants for everyone is freedom, the freedom to act morally or immorally, as each man shall decide.



    Murray N. Rothbard, For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto
  • hands sandonhands sandon Posts: 5,270member
    Monty Python, Dennis Moore- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLkhx0eqK5w
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony



    Quote:

    A federal judge has ordered a Texas school district to prohibit public prayer at a high school graduation ceremony.



    Chief U.S. District Judge Fred Biery’s order against the Medina Valley Independent School District also forbids students from using specific religious words including “prayer” and “amen.”



    The ruling was in response to a lawsuit filed by Christa and Danny Schultz. Their son is among those scheduled to participate in Saturday’s graduation ceremony. The judge declared that the Schultz family and their son would “suffer irreparable harm” if anyone prayed at the ceremony.



  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:

    The judge declared that the Schultz family and their son would ?suffer irreparable harm? if anyone prayed at the ceremony.



    I suppose it depends on what people were praying for.



    And the world gets more ridiculous by the day.



    I wonder if we could apply this "irreparable harm" standard to others forms of expression and speech. For example, when Barack Obama opens his mouth...
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Seriously, this reminds me of the Knights Who Say: "NEE!" from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.



    I can just imagine someone running around at the graduation ceremony saying "PRAYER!" and "AMEN!" and people writhing in fear and pain.



    "Irreparable harm"? Really?







    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIV4poUZAQo
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    Seriously, this reminds me of the Knights Who Say: "NEE!" from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.



    I can just imagine someone running around at the graduation ceremony saying "PRAYER!" and "AMEN!" and people writhing in fear and pain.



    OK...you seriously need to come over here and clean the Coke off my laptop screen.
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    OK...you seriously need to come over here and clean the Coke off my laptop screen.







    I mean seriously? Is it not just as absurd as the movie?
  • noahjnoahj Posts: 4,500member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post






    I mean seriously? Is it not just as absurd as the movie?



    First of all they don't say Nee, it is Ni. And thus your entire argument has suffered irreparable harm and cannot be considered any longer.
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post


    First of all they don't say Nee, it is Ni. And thus your entire argument has suffered irreparable harm and cannot be considered any longer.



    BR? Is that you?
  • noahjnoahj Posts: 4,500member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    BR? Is that you?



    Sorry, couldn't resist. Was not trying to channel any particular person though. just a general mindset.
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post


    Sorry, couldn't resist. Was not trying to channel any particular person though. just a general mindset.



    Of course.
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