Big mistake by the FLA allowing Apple to join them. Now instead of Apple being put under scrutiny for their labour practices, FLA will be put under scrutiny for their methods.
It's already happening. Forums everywhere are filled with comments like "FLA only issues reports based on who pays them" or "Foxconn will clean up just before the FLA arrives so they get a good report and it will be back to slave labour when they leave".
Funny how anything that gets mentioned along with Apple automatically becomes the target of all the iHaters.
jragosta, why do you continue to insinuate that it is ok to treat people poorly as long as its in the context and societal norm of their culture, socioeconomic status or geopolitical condition.
Was it OK for Serbs to gang rape and kill Bosniak women because they could? The Chinese need to aspire to a higher standard in worker treatment but its not up to Apple to lead that charge. If working in a foxconn plant is such a glorious experience that pays boats loads of money I don't see many Americans swarming to work in those sweatshops.
Please answer my question.
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't give a year of paid maternity leave like Canada?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they require workers to work more than 35 hours per week like in France?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't pay their janitors the same as their CEOs?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't give a year of paid maternity leave like Canada?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they require workers to work more than 35 hours per week like in France?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't pay their janitors the same as their CEOs?
Community standards matter.
Those aren't issues I am really passionate about. I think Canada and Europe's maternity leave is great by the way. I don't have time to picket, I had a contract that expired and I was hired on to another tech company in a week.
You don't have to work 40 hours per week to be productive. Don't work to much either, its bad for you, live a little.
CEO compensation lately has little bearing on performance, Apple excluded from that mix of course.
Go to China and work at Foxconn if its so great. I hope that doesn't sound insulting but I think anybody would be insulted because its really not that great.
Just to echo the sentiments of all tech site comment sections I've seen so far..
LOL OBVIOUS PR MOVE, THIS WILL DO NOTHING, RESULTS WILL BE BOUGHT AND PAYED FOR, APPLE WILL CONTINUE ABUSING WORKERS, APPLE MUST BE BOYCOTTED!!
..meanwhile, we don't hear a peep from any other company which deals with production facilities with WORSE conditions (ie. every single tech company out there)- and they all get a free pass. Just mind-blowing.
Just to echo the sentiments of all tech site comment sections I've seen so far..
LOL OBVIOUS PR MOVE, THIS WILL DO NOTHING, RESULTS WILL BE BOUGHT AND PAYED FOR, APPLE WILL CONTINUE ABUSING WORKERS, APPLE MUST BE BOYCOTTED!!
..meanwhile, we don't hear a peep from any other company which deals with production facilities with WORSE conditions (ie. every single tech company out there)- and they all get a free pass. Just mind-blowing.
They've all turned out the lights and are sitting quiet in case anyone comes knocking at their door.
Go to China and work at Foxconn if its so great. I hope that doesn't sound insulting but I think anybody would be insulted because its really not that great.
Possibly the most mind-blowingly ridiculous line of reasoning I've ever heard. First of all, not a single person has mentioned Foxconn is 'so great!'. So why the fuck are you trying to be disingenuous by arguing against a fictional, ridiculous statement nobody has ever made? There isn't a single manufacturing facility on the planet that is 'great'. Thanks, we all know it's not great, and nobody is arguing that it is. Why are you trying to lower the level of discourse into this kindergarten type of garbage? There are things in between 'worst working conditions in the world' to 'so great!'. The question is, where does Foxconn fall compared to other companies in the same field in the same area, and how does Apple compare to other companies in terms of dealing with the situation? The answer to both is 'superior'.
Your 'go and work at Foxconn if its so great' line is just below 'why dont you go and marry it if its so great' in terms of stupidity. No, I'm not going to move across the world to work at an entry level manufacturing facility in China, and that fact doesn't contract anything I could ever say about Foxconn because it's utterly irrational. Also, I doubt I'd even get in, since waiting lists are in the tens of thousands for people to desperately work there and who desperately need the money.
I have to admit, I am a bit shocked and saddened by the working conditions that I see in those photos.
Because I am such a humanitarian and caring liberal, I have now decided that I'm going to start an online petition so that none of the workers will have to wear those funny looking blue hats anymore. I am now convinced that those hats are a significant cause of suicide. Switch the hats out, and watch the rates drop by at least a few percent!
Those aren't issues I am really passionate about. I think Canada and Europe's maternity leave is great by the way. I don't have time to picket, I had a contract that expired and I was hired on to another tech company in a week.
You don't have to work 40 hours per week to be productive. Don't work to much either, its bad for you, live a little.
CEO compensation lately has little bearing on performance, Apple excluded from that mix of course.
Why would anyone (much less Apple) care about what issues you're passionate about? Either it's OK or it's not. And if it's not OK for Apple's subcontractors to use local standards, then it's not OK for U.S. manufacturers to use local standards, either. You should be picketing U.S. companies for overpaying CEOs, for not giving adequate maternity leave, and for having too long a work week - at least by standards in some other countries.
Jumping on Apple while ignoring all the other companies is hypocritical, anyway. Doing so while ignoring the fact that U.S. companies don't follow the same standards as other countries, is doubly hypocritical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBRSTREETG
Go to China and work at Foxconn if its so great. I hope that doesn't sound insulting but I think anybody would be insulted because its really not that great.
Having empathy for others matter.
Sure it matters. Which is why I'm happy that Apple has created half a million jobs in China where those families would otherwise starve. Maybe Apple should make Foxconn close the factory and let those people starve.
Chinese people are lining up for these jobs. They're among the best jobs in China. Who are you to impose your standards on them?
Those aren't issues I am really passionate about. I think Canada and Europe's maternity leave is great by the way. I don't have time to picket, I had a contract that expired and I was hired on to another tech company in a week. .
Oh I see. So you're so 'passionate' but this issue, but have 'no time' to do anything about it besides posting on internet message-boards. God knows I'd be embarrassed about myself if that's the extent of what I did in response to humanitarian issues I would call myself 'passionate' about. For the issues I care about I've organized events, have done public speaking founded activist groups, joined groups and taken leadership roles in them, written newspaper articles, held educational seminars and distributed material in educational institutions, ets.
Your actions, or lack of them, is an embarrassment to the term passion. So is the clear lack of any research you've done on the issue, and your blatant lack of understanding. I would hope someone takes the effort to do real investigation and research into the issues he calls himself passionate about, which you clearly have not done and have no interest in doing. Your only course of action is to attack the one and only company doing anything at all, and doing the most, in a global economic environment dictating certain realities, that every single other company is also abiding by yet doing much less and we're not hearing a peep from. This doesn't sound like any informed passion to me, it sounds like irrational trolling.
While this is a good step, the reality is that these kind of things have only a small measure of impact. Unless they're always unannounced (they're usually announced), the factory can just "dress to impress" during the visit. And wherever there's reporting, there's bribes ready to be handed out.
This isn't against Apple. It's just reality. I mean, hey, at least Apple is doing something, even if it may be for PR. It's a start. But it won't really fix things. Even if Apple *demanded* that Foxconn fix any problems, how would they enforce it? Foxconn could just tamper with reports or pay off reporting agencies. Should they leave Foxconn? Where would they go? Would the new company be any better?
My whole stance on this issue is that it's too big of an issue for Apple to be held responsible. These are HUGE issues, probably bigger than even the U.S. government could tackle. So why stone Apple? Why not be mad at the Chinese government, the U.S. government, and human society as a whole (where the real problem lies)?
While this is a good step, the reality is that these kind of things have only a small measure of impact. Unless they're always unannounced (they're usually announced), the factory can just "dress to impress" during the visit. And wherever there's reporting, there's bribes ready to be handed out.
This isn't against Apple. It's just reality. I mean, hey, at least Apple is doing something, even if it may be for PR. It's a start. But it won't really fix things. Even if Apple *demanded* that Foxconn fix any problems, how would they enforce it? Foxconn could just tamper with reports or pay off reporting agencies. Should they leave Foxconn? Where would they go? Would the new company be any better?
My whole stance on this issue is that it's too big of an issue for Apple to be held responsible. These are HUGE issues, probably bigger than even the U.S. government could tackle. So why stone Apple? Why not be mad at the Chinese government, the U.S. government, and human society as a whole (where the real problem lies)?
I wonder what would happen if Sam Walton's empire had to close its doors because goods made in China were no longer available because of unfair labor practices. I can guarantee we'd get a few reverse petitions and demonstrations berating China for not supplying America with cheap shit.
Chinese people are lining up for these jobs. They're among the best jobs in China. Who are you to impose your standards on them?
Best jobs in China doesn't mean they are great jobs. It doesn't help that China is misleading them about pay rate and benefits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
Your actions, or lack of them, is an embarrassment to the term passion. So is the clear lack of any research you've done on the issue, and your blatant lack of understanding.
You need to quit riding peoples a**es. You don't have to be an expert on a topic to talk about or support it.
You really have nothing important to contribute besides "taming the trolls". I don't think you understand what troll means and your blatant misuse of the term is embarrassing. See, I can do it too. It's annoying isn't it?
I wonder what would happen if Sam Walton's empire had to close its doors because goods made in China were no longer available because of unfair labor practices. I can guarantee we'd get a few reverse petitions and demonstrations berating China for not supplying America with cheap shit.
Thus, my complaint about human society.
Ironically, craving ever-cheaper prices has meant the loss of many jobs, leading to a lower level of real income for many people, thus making the "cheaper" prices more expensive.
I know there is nobody living in the America's or Europe that would work in hi-tech sweat shops like Foxconn. Part of the reason Apple has been raking in big $ goes beyond designing, marketing cutting edge great consumer products. The other half of the equation is the very low production (labor) costs. The workers in these factories must have better working conditions than they have at present. Apple must show it is a corporation that believes in fairness and humanity and not just the bottom line. This century will see the rise of Chinese "Robber Barons" like those in the US 100 years ago. There is no chance of there ever being a Chinese middle class without reform and workers rights, they same thing that once happened in the USA.
In all honesty, it is Apple's responsibility to make money and provide a return on investment it it's shareholders. Apple's job is not to further the Chinese middle class. While they may want to show interest in being a model for workers rights, that should and will come second to the bottom line.
Ironically, craving ever-cheaper prices has meant the loss of many jobs, leading to a lower level of real income for many people, thus making the "cheaper" prices more expensive.
... and my comment came off of your lead about human society.
Best jobs in China doesn't mean they are great jobs. It doesn't help that China is misleading them about pay rate and benefits.
Again, who the hell is suggesting these jobs are great, will be great, or should be great? I mean, really? How do you propose manufacturing jobs becomes GREAT? Will entry jobs in the US, for example, ever be GREAT? These are jobs that require no education, no experience, little to no personality traits or skill, and have extremely high turnover rates. Is this now the fictional goal, just so we can keep pretending to be outraged and disappointed when it is never reached? Not every job in the world can be GREAT least of all manufacturing jobs. Acknowledging that doesn't make me an asshole, it makes me a sane, rational person that lives in this universe. Stop demanding insane, irrational realities, it doesn't being anyone closer to solving anything.
Again, who the hell is suggesting these jobs are great, will be great, or should be great?
When they respond to the jobs aren't great by saying they are the best in China, they're insinuating it. This is called cognitive dissonance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
These are jobs that require no education, no experience, little to no personality traits or skill, and have extremely high turnover rates.
You talk about these people like they are worthless slaves. There is a sweatshop down the street from where I live and they can still pay their workers minimum wage. Apple is sitting on an enormous amount of cash and continues to make huge profits. This is why Apple is being targeted. Other companies can argue that paying overseas workers more would affect sale price and pose a risk to the company. Apple can't make this claim and it's painfully obvious to everyone. Writing these people off as worthless and replaceable is what happened in the United States to circumvent fair labor practices. You have a destructive attitude.
Comments
It's already happening. Forums everywhere are filled with comments like "FLA only issues reports based on who pays them" or "Foxconn will clean up just before the FLA arrives so they get a good report and it will be back to slave labour when they leave".
Funny how anything that gets mentioned along with Apple automatically becomes the target of all the iHaters.
jragosta, why do you continue to insinuate that it is ok to treat people poorly as long as its in the context and societal norm of their culture, socioeconomic status or geopolitical condition.
Was it OK for Serbs to gang rape and kill Bosniak women because they could? The Chinese need to aspire to a higher standard in worker treatment but its not up to Apple to lead that charge. If working in a foxconn plant is such a glorious experience that pays boats loads of money I don't see many Americans swarming to work in those sweatshops.
Please answer my question.
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't give a year of paid maternity leave like Canada?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they require workers to work more than 35 hours per week like in France?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't pay their janitors the same as their CEOs?
Community standards matter.
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't give a year of paid maternity leave like Canada?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they require workers to work more than 35 hours per week like in France?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't pay their janitors the same as their CEOs?
Because doing those things would be asinine? Because there are bigger fish to fry?
Just my guess.
Because doing those things would be asinine? Because there are bigger fish to fry?
Just my guess.
Much bigger fish to fry... and the working conditions at Foxconn wouldn't even be close to #1 on the list.
(but that isn't to say that working conditions at Foxconn aren't a concern)
Please answer my question.
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't give a year of paid maternity leave like Canada?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they require workers to work more than 35 hours per week like in France?
Why aren't you picketing U.S. businesses because they don't pay their janitors the same as their CEOs?
Community standards matter.
Those aren't issues I am really passionate about. I think Canada and Europe's maternity leave is great by the way. I don't have time to picket, I had a contract that expired and I was hired on to another tech company in a week.
You don't have to work 40 hours per week to be productive. Don't work to much either, its bad for you, live a little.
CEO compensation lately has little bearing on performance, Apple excluded from that mix of course.
Go to China and work at Foxconn if its so great. I hope that doesn't sound insulting but I think anybody would be insulted because its really not that great.
Having empathy for others matter.
LOL OBVIOUS PR MOVE, THIS WILL DO NOTHING, RESULTS WILL BE BOUGHT AND PAYED FOR, APPLE WILL CONTINUE ABUSING WORKERS, APPLE MUST BE BOYCOTTED!!
..meanwhile, we don't hear a peep from any other company which deals with production facilities with WORSE conditions (ie. every single tech company out there)- and they all get a free pass. Just mind-blowing.
Just to echo the sentiments of all tech site comment sections I've seen so far..
LOL OBVIOUS PR MOVE, THIS WILL DO NOTHING, RESULTS WILL BE BOUGHT AND PAYED FOR, APPLE WILL CONTINUE ABUSING WORKERS, APPLE MUST BE BOYCOTTED!!
..meanwhile, we don't hear a peep from any other company which deals with production facilities with WORSE conditions (ie. every single tech company out there)- and they all get a free pass. Just mind-blowing.
They've all turned out the lights and are sitting quiet in case anyone comes knocking at their door.
Go to China and work at Foxconn if its so great. I hope that doesn't sound insulting but I think anybody would be insulted because its really not that great.
Possibly the most mind-blowingly ridiculous line of reasoning I've ever heard. First of all, not a single person has mentioned Foxconn is 'so great!'. So why the fuck are you trying to be disingenuous by arguing against a fictional, ridiculous statement nobody has ever made? There isn't a single manufacturing facility on the planet that is 'great'. Thanks, we all know it's not great, and nobody is arguing that it is. Why are you trying to lower the level of discourse into this kindergarten type of garbage? There are things in between 'worst working conditions in the world' to 'so great!'. The question is, where does Foxconn fall compared to other companies in the same field in the same area, and how does Apple compare to other companies in terms of dealing with the situation? The answer to both is 'superior'.
Your 'go and work at Foxconn if its so great' line is just below 'why dont you go and marry it if its so great' in terms of stupidity. No, I'm not going to move across the world to work at an entry level manufacturing facility in China, and that fact doesn't contract anything I could ever say about Foxconn because it's utterly irrational. Also, I doubt I'd even get in, since waiting lists are in the tens of thousands for people to desperately work there and who desperately need the money.
Because I am such a humanitarian and caring liberal, I have now decided that I'm going to start an online petition so that none of the workers will have to wear those funny looking blue hats anymore. I am now convinced that those hats are a significant cause of suicide. Switch the hats out, and watch the rates drop by at least a few percent!
Those aren't issues I am really passionate about. I think Canada and Europe's maternity leave is great by the way. I don't have time to picket, I had a contract that expired and I was hired on to another tech company in a week.
You don't have to work 40 hours per week to be productive. Don't work to much either, its bad for you, live a little.
CEO compensation lately has little bearing on performance, Apple excluded from that mix of course.
Why would anyone (much less Apple) care about what issues you're passionate about? Either it's OK or it's not. And if it's not OK for Apple's subcontractors to use local standards, then it's not OK for U.S. manufacturers to use local standards, either. You should be picketing U.S. companies for overpaying CEOs, for not giving adequate maternity leave, and for having too long a work week - at least by standards in some other countries.
Jumping on Apple while ignoring all the other companies is hypocritical, anyway. Doing so while ignoring the fact that U.S. companies don't follow the same standards as other countries, is doubly hypocritical.
Go to China and work at Foxconn if its so great. I hope that doesn't sound insulting but I think anybody would be insulted because its really not that great.
Having empathy for others matter.
Sure it matters. Which is why I'm happy that Apple has created half a million jobs in China where those families would otherwise starve. Maybe Apple should make Foxconn close the factory and let those people starve.
Chinese people are lining up for these jobs. They're among the best jobs in China. Who are you to impose your standards on them?
Those aren't issues I am really passionate about. I think Canada and Europe's maternity leave is great by the way. I don't have time to picket, I had a contract that expired and I was hired on to another tech company in a week. .
Oh I see. So you're so 'passionate' but this issue, but have 'no time' to do anything about it besides posting on internet message-boards. God knows I'd be embarrassed about myself if that's the extent of what I did in response to humanitarian issues I would call myself 'passionate' about. For the issues I care about I've organized events, have done public speaking founded activist groups, joined groups and taken leadership roles in them, written newspaper articles, held educational seminars and distributed material in educational institutions, ets.
Your actions, or lack of them, is an embarrassment to the term passion. So is the clear lack of any research you've done on the issue, and your blatant lack of understanding. I would hope someone takes the effort to do real investigation and research into the issues he calls himself passionate about, which you clearly have not done and have no interest in doing. Your only course of action is to attack the one and only company doing anything at all, and doing the most, in a global economic environment dictating certain realities, that every single other company is also abiding by yet doing much less and we're not hearing a peep from. This doesn't sound like any informed passion to me, it sounds like irrational trolling.
This isn't against Apple. It's just reality. I mean, hey, at least Apple is doing something, even if it may be for PR. It's a start. But it won't really fix things. Even if Apple *demanded* that Foxconn fix any problems, how would they enforce it? Foxconn could just tamper with reports or pay off reporting agencies. Should they leave Foxconn? Where would they go? Would the new company be any better?
My whole stance on this issue is that it's too big of an issue for Apple to be held responsible. These are HUGE issues, probably bigger than even the U.S. government could tackle. So why stone Apple? Why not be mad at the Chinese government, the U.S. government, and human society as a whole (where the real problem lies)?
While this is a good step, the reality is that these kind of things have only a small measure of impact. Unless they're always unannounced (they're usually announced), the factory can just "dress to impress" during the visit. And wherever there's reporting, there's bribes ready to be handed out.
This isn't against Apple. It's just reality. I mean, hey, at least Apple is doing something, even if it may be for PR. It's a start. But it won't really fix things. Even if Apple *demanded* that Foxconn fix any problems, how would they enforce it? Foxconn could just tamper with reports or pay off reporting agencies. Should they leave Foxconn? Where would they go? Would the new company be any better?
My whole stance on this issue is that it's too big of an issue for Apple to be held responsible. These are HUGE issues, probably bigger than even the U.S. government could tackle. So why stone Apple? Why not be mad at the Chinese government, the U.S. government, and human society as a whole (where the real problem lies)?
I wonder what would happen if Sam Walton's empire had to close its doors because goods made in China were no longer available because of unfair labor practices. I can guarantee we'd get a few reverse petitions and demonstrations berating China for not supplying America with cheap shit.
Chinese people are lining up for these jobs. They're among the best jobs in China. Who are you to impose your standards on them?
Best jobs in China doesn't mean they are great jobs. It doesn't help that China is misleading them about pay rate and benefits.
Your actions, or lack of them, is an embarrassment to the term passion. So is the clear lack of any research you've done on the issue, and your blatant lack of understanding.
You need to quit riding peoples a**es. You don't have to be an expert on a topic to talk about or support it.
You really have nothing important to contribute besides "taming the trolls". I don't think you understand what troll means and your blatant misuse of the term is embarrassing. See, I can do it too. It's annoying isn't it?
I wonder what would happen if Sam Walton's empire had to close its doors because goods made in China were no longer available because of unfair labor practices. I can guarantee we'd get a few reverse petitions and demonstrations berating China for not supplying America with cheap shit.
Thus, my complaint about human society.
Ironically, craving ever-cheaper prices has meant the loss of many jobs, leading to a lower level of real income for many people, thus making the "cheaper" prices more expensive.
I know there is nobody living in the America's or Europe that would work in hi-tech sweat shops like Foxconn. Part of the reason Apple has been raking in big $ goes beyond designing, marketing cutting edge great consumer products. The other half of the equation is the very low production (labor) costs. The workers in these factories must have better working conditions than they have at present. Apple must show it is a corporation that believes in fairness and humanity and not just the bottom line. This century will see the rise of Chinese "Robber Barons" like those in the US 100 years ago. There is no chance of there ever being a Chinese middle class without reform and workers rights, they same thing that once happened in the USA.
In all honesty, it is Apple's responsibility to make money and provide a return on investment it it's shareholders. Apple's job is not to further the Chinese middle class. While they may want to show interest in being a model for workers rights, that should and will come second to the bottom line.
Thus, my complaint about human society.
Ironically, craving ever-cheaper prices has meant the loss of many jobs, leading to a lower level of real income for many people, thus making the "cheaper" prices more expensive.
... and my comment came off of your lead about human society.
(I just bolded, if that's a word, your text)
Best jobs in China doesn't mean they are great jobs. It doesn't help that China is misleading them about pay rate and benefits.
Again, who the hell is suggesting these jobs are great, will be great, or should be great? I mean, really? How do you propose manufacturing jobs becomes GREAT? Will entry jobs in the US, for example, ever be GREAT? These are jobs that require no education, no experience, little to no personality traits or skill, and have extremely high turnover rates. Is this now the fictional goal, just so we can keep pretending to be outraged and disappointed when it is never reached? Not every job in the world can be GREAT least of all manufacturing jobs. Acknowledging that doesn't make me an asshole, it makes me a sane, rational person that lives in this universe. Stop demanding insane, irrational realities, it doesn't being anyone closer to solving anything.
Again, who the hell is suggesting these jobs are great, will be great, or should be great?
When they respond to the jobs aren't great by saying they are the best in China, they're insinuating it. This is called cognitive dissonance.
These are jobs that require no education, no experience, little to no personality traits or skill, and have extremely high turnover rates.
You talk about these people like they are worthless slaves. There is a sweatshop down the street from where I live and they can still pay their workers minimum wage. Apple is sitting on an enormous amount of cash and continues to make huge profits. This is why Apple is being targeted. Other companies can argue that paying overseas workers more would affect sale price and pose a risk to the company. Apple can't make this claim and it's painfully obvious to everyone. Writing these people off as worthless and replaceable is what happened in the United States to circumvent fair labor practices. You have a destructive attitude.