Mountain Lion brings new iOS-like file handling, iCloud App Library features

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Comments

  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    I have never used iCloud so I really don't understand how it works. How many copies of a file are there? Is there one on each device as well as in iCloud which get synced whenever it is modified? I'm not sure how auto save, auto sync and iCloud interact. How does the iOS-like file display work if you are not connected to iCloud for some reason like no wifi or cell service? I wonder with ML do you see your local files in that new format or is that only for actual iCloud files?



    I have only used iCloud for iTunes match, PhotoStream, mail...



    I understand that there are/will be changes to the OSX file system and Apple and 3rd-part OSX apps that will allow you to save a file to iCloud as well as locally.



    It is evolving -- so not everything is in place yet...



    Here's an example:



    Import a picture into iPhoto on your Mac, or take a picture on your iPhone or iPad... They all are uploaded to iCloud and appear (are accessible) a few minutes later on your ATV -- and all your other devices.



    It is my understanding that versioning will be handled automatically by iCloud by recording changes only ala TimeMachine.



    My download has started... So I can only talk about it for a little while longer.



  • freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Could someone please explain to me why people think Apple has removed the hierarchical file system?



    It's not that they've removed it, but that they seem to be headed in that direction, focusing their design and development efforts entirely at newbies. There is no hierarchical files system on iOS. This works fine when you're dealing with a few files, but I find it completely unmanageable when dealing with larger numbers. This is a roadblock keeping me from using my iPad more for business.



    Apple should provide a way to scale this simplistic file viewer system into something that's usable for real work. I'd love to see if Apple's CEO and CFO manage all their legal and financial documents in simple thumbnail fashion, with no subfolders, and grouped solely by application.
  • freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gustav View Post


    If not for Open Recent, Spotlight, and open dialog boxes defaulting to the last place, People would lose their files all the time.





    Yes, and now those people only lose files that were not recently opened. This is treating your personal files the way Google treats internet content, with people only accessing whatever content comes up on the first search results page. This is not a viable system for anything but the most casual use.



    I save files to my desktop all the time because I want them handy while I'm working on them and I can't be bothered to search through 5 levels of nested folders several times a day.



    But once I'm done with them they get filed in a folder heirarchy where I can browse for them later by category or project. The fact that a lot of people are incapable of organizing their files is no reason to remove the option to do so. I realize that's not (yet) the case on OS X, but it's distressing to deal with this limitation on iOS and worrisome to see OS X going in the same direction.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


    right, but what happens when you want to browse a collection of image or video files which require different apps depending on the file? I want to open psd files in photoshop but i expect to browse them in the same view as jpgs which open in preview.



    There's an easy way to open a file with different apps, but a file system that only shows files associated with a single app at a time is idiotic.



    They did not remove the hierarchical file system from Mountain Lion!!!
  • freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    They did not remove the hierarchical file system from Mountain Lion!!!



    I was referring to iOS, and the limitations of this "simplified" file system if it were applied more broadly. This is relevant on the iOS devices as their use expands beyond media consumption, and it is also relevant on the desktop, as Apple seems to be drifting their design efforts towards simplification at the expense of utility.



    Not an Apple basher here - far from it. But I do have concerns about this hyperfocus on dumbing down file management to the point where it's useless for anything beyond finding recently opened files.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


    I was referring to iOS, and the limitations of this "simplified" file system if it were applied more broadly. This is relevant on the iOS devices as their use expands beyond media consumption, and it is also relevant on the desktop, as Apple seems to be drifting their design efforts towards simplification at the expense of utility.



    No you weren't. Your comments specifically refer to apps in Mac OS.
  • freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    No you weren't. Your comments specifically refer to apps in Mac OS.



    That wasn't my intention. My bad if I wasn't clear.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


    Right, but what happens when you want to browse a collection of image or video files which require different apps depending on the file? I want to open PSD files in Photoshop but I expect to browse them in the same view as JPGs which open in Preview.



    There's an easy way to open a file with different apps, but a file system that only shows files associated with a single app at a time is idiotic.



    First you won't store thousands of files on your iOS device (in the near future).



    On the Mac you will have the standard file system with preview.



    For iCloud, I can easily modify an existing iPhone app I wrote in 2008 to do the equivalent of browse and preview... If you really want to do that sort of thing on a mobile device.



    Rather, I suspect we need to rethink how we navigate and locate files... A db might help... Metadata might help... Smart Collections might help... Content skimming might help...



    As it turns out, file names are usually a very poor way of locating files...



    What, exactly, does "img_0102" convey about the file you seek?



    It is interesting that a metadata capability already exists that db-driven, keywordable, smart collections, content skimmable, and file system hierarchy...



    The real challenge is for us to open our minds to a potentially better solution --- rather than insist that the legacy baggage is the only solution.

  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


    That wasn't my intention. My bad if I wasn't clear.



    Look at what you wrote. None of it is relevant to a smartphone. What Apple has successfully done is made the transition between sharing files on iOS and Mac devices easy without affecting the way Macs are used by itself or with other PCs on a network. They even went out of their way to make sure that files accessed through the Finder and iCloud could not be easily confused by purposely making them very distinct in the way they work while also reinforcing that these iCloud files will be easily accessed by iOS.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member


    The Mountain Lion ate my file system!

  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post




    The Mountain Lion ate my file system!




  • freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Rather, I suspect we need to rethink how we navigate and locate files... A db might help... Metadata might help... Smart Collections might help... Content skimming might help...



    As it turns out, file names are usually a very poor way of locating files...



    What, exactly, does "img_0102" convey about the file you seek?



    It is interesting that a metadata capability already exists that db-driven, keywordable, smart collections, content skimmable, and file system hierarchy...



    The real challenge is for us to open our minds to a potentially better solution --- rather than insist that the legacy baggage is the only solution.



    Yeah sure, but then what started out as an effort to simplify file management actually turns into a massive rethinking of how we name and tag files. I don't think that's a realistic goal for an audience that can't be bothered to understand folders.



    For me it's easier and more efficient to dump a bunch of generically named files into a usefully named folder and folder structure than to go back and rename and tag a large collection of files individually - many of which may have been received from someone else.



    Remember that most of us have to work with others, and not all of our co-workers share our file naming and organization habits. Half of my emails arrive with a subject titled something like: "Re: FW: FW: Following up on a...".
  • adamthecarnyadamthecarny Posts: 50member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Sounds like you found an acid stash yourself.



    I'm curious, what part of On My Mac is confusing to you?



    Like.



    How is adding functionality without removing previous functionality a bad thing?
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 40,290member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by adamthecarny View Post


    Like.



    How is adding functionality without removing previous functionality a bad thing?



    *mumblemumble* … IOS WILL KILL THE MAC! … BECAUSE! *mumblemumble*
  • freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by adamthecarny View Post


    Like.



    How is adding functionality without removing previous functionality a bad thing?



    There's nothing terrible about it now. But the fact that even on a desktop OS they chose to provide only an iOS-style view of iOS files isn't reasuring. It underscores their desire to push the simplified file view over the more flexible Finder view options.



    I mean they're effectively imposing a 15 character limit on filenames. In that screenshot, imagine if there were 50 similar looking files all with names starting with "Screen Shot 201..." Bet it would be fun to find the desired file...



    They should at least provide the view toolbar to give users the option to switch to a detailed view, expand the filename column so the names are fully visible, and then sort as desired.

    See my crappy mockup below:







    Then again, I'm making some assumptions based on a single screenshot so it may be that there are ways around this limitation. But from what we've seen so far it doesn't look like it...
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 40,290member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


    But the fact that even on a desktop OS they chose to provide only an iOS-style view of iOS files isn't reassuring.







    See the standard four-bar of view options? Notice how it is indeed still there? Apple could have easily removed it from view entirely when the "iCloud" option is selected and only shown it when "On My Mac" is selected. They didn't. It's just greyed out.



    I'd bet that, given proper feedback, they'll un-grey it.
  • freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post






    See the standard four-bar of view options? Notice how it is indeed still there? Apple could have easily removed it from view entirely when the "iCloud" option is selected and only shown it when "On My Mac" is selected. They didn't. It's just greyed out.



    I'd bet that, given proper feedback, they'll un-grey it.





    Overcoming the temptation to provide a sarcastic reply, I edited those buttons in to make my point of what I think they should have done. The original image is on adamthecarny's post above - sans toolbar
  • mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 6,864member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Sounds like you found an acid stash yourself.



    I'm curious, what part of On My Mac is confusing to you?



    An acid stash [something of a fable] wouldn't make you an a$$ hat.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member


    Yesterday, I went down to the local gas station... Signed a monthly commitment for $199 worth of gas... They threw in a BMW...



  • 2oh12oh1 Posts: 476member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


    Huge Apple proponent here. I "get" it. But I don't think their solution to file management is viable for getting any real work done.



    I agree. I'm a big fan of Apple's Aperture app, but I don't like having my photos saved in Apple's somewhat hidden library. They should be filed the same way iTunes files my music: put them in a folder, sorted by photographer and then by date. Or, perhaps by photographer, then by project. If I want to open a photo in photoshop, it's annoying to have to go into Aperture first and open the image from there. If I want to find a song, it's easy to go into my iTunes library folder and find it. Folder > Artist > Album > Song. I find it interesting how iTunes and Aperture, both made by Apple, have such different methods for handling files. iTunes does it the right way. Aperture does it the wrong way. This new option Apple is adding seems to follow the Aperture way rather than the iTunes way.



    I'm already seeing some apps in the Mac App Store saving files to wacky and inaccessible places. I was using the SimpleMind mind map app until i realized it was saving the files somewhere completely inaccessible, meaning the files would only be accessible to THAT particular app. No thanks. App deleted.



    I'm all for Apple merging iOS and OS X in ways that make sense, but there's a huge difference between the two form factors. In fact, iOS is already beginning to outgrow its sandboxing. There are so many excellent photography apps, but it's a giant hassle to share images between them, And it shouldn't have to be that way.
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