Mountain Lion focuses on Cocoa, drops X11 and deprecates Carbon Core

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Comments

  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,760member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chabig View Post


    I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.



    Currently I have to reinstall XQuartz everytime the system gets updated. This is a pain so an open source only solution would actually be better. Then you have the problem of third party software building against different X11 tracts. From the users standpoint this should be much better.



    The only concern is that Apple stops supporting XQuartz with their employees.
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,760member
    Narrowly focused consumers maybe. But if you keep an open mind, you will find much in the way of useful X11 software.



    Yes the ideal is Native Mac software but not everything is or will ever be native.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post


    Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.



    Apple are merely dropping stuff that most users don't need and don't care for.



    Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.



  • jasenj1jasenj1 Posts: 824member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post


    Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp



    Inkscape. GIMP's drawing sibling. As Illustrator is to Photoshop. I use both GIMP and Inkscape regularly.



    And this change won't bother me. Anyone nerdy enough to know what GIMP or Inkscape are, is nerdy enough to install XQuartz. If you know you need it, you can install it. Otherwise it doesn't take up space.



    - Jasen.
  • sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    "I'm going to deprecate you so hard you'll be measuring your bandwidth in baud rate." How OSes shit talk each other?



    POST of the WEEK
  • pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Bold steps to take leaps forward > legacy support.



    If it was worth having then, its been remade for the now.
  • sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Narrowly focused consumers maybe. But if you keep an open mind, you will find much in the way of useful X11 software.



    Yes the ideal is Native Mac software but not everything is or will ever be native.



    WireShark is all I ever used in terms of X11 stuff. Everything else that I desperately need I run in VMWare Fusion.
  • doh123doh123 Posts: 323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post


    Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.



    Wireshark...



    Wine.. including Crossover and Wineskin... but they bundle their own X11 builds inside, but still rely on some of XQuartz being installed.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post


    Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.



    really? thats very short sighted. Java is a major software language that needs to be supported... X11 is also major on other *nix systems since it is THE windowing system on Linux, BSD, etc... it helps in easily making ports. Many current apps still using some Carbon, including stuff like MS Office 2011... hopefully they'll leave it as deprecated for a few versions before removing anything.



    You thinking just cuz Apple is getting bigger that they can force the whole world to change to exactly what they want is very short sighted. Just because you have an idea of "proper" doesn't mean its right.



    Beyond all that I'm sure some day all of Apple devices will become like iOS devices... slightly better than they are now.. much worse than Macs are now. While I do know ObjC/Cocoa well, and really do like it... as a computer user and not a Phone/Pad user for my main computing... I'm pretty sure in a few years I'll have to go back to Linux, or even use Windows more... Apple is trying to get out of the actual personal computer business and just wants to make an iPad-like focus.
  • macarenamacarena Posts: 325member
    This is the sort of gutsy move that has made Apple so successful. They are not afraid to alter the status quo significantly. And this behavior was there even when Apple was not such a massive success as it is today. Whether it is giving up on Floppy disks, moving to USB, deciding to stay away from Flash, stay away from Blu-ray, distributing the OS online, all of this points to a DNA that is very different from other companies out there.



    Thankfully we have Apple around, otherwise our computers might still have punch card slots!
  • ljocampoljocampo Posts: 657member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post


    Please, don't tell us things you "seem to remember". Why waste our time with your misinformation?



    Maybe it's because I see AI as a social place as well as an Apple informational site. If you think I'm a waste of your time, don't read me. \ Besides it's not misinformation because there is or was a security hole in X11 and IMO that is probably why Apple has made it an optional install for sometime now. They don't really don't want it on their OS for those reasons.
  • gctwnlgctwnl Posts: 272member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chabig View Post


    I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.



    True. But sometimes it's the only alternative. E.g. try to find a reasonable (does not convert everything to grainy pixel based images) and affordable SVG to PDF converter and the only one available is InkScape which requires X11.
  • pmcdpmcd Posts: 383member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post


    Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.



    Apple are merely dropping stuff that most users don't need and don't care for.



    Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.



    Hmm ... unless things have really changed in the past month I think X11 is pretty important in the academic world. This seems like an odd move or perhaps Apple is giving up on that small group of users? It's far better for it to be part of the system.



    philip
  • gyorpbgyorpb Posts: 93member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTel View Post


    A clear sign of Apple's further attempts to merge the OSes will be when they discontinue the Power Mac. This is not an "if", but a "when".



    Actually, it's a "way back when": 2006.



    .tsooJ
  • wolwol Posts: 5member
    Any guess if the successor of Mountain Lion (OS X 10.8) will have the version number OS X11 (rather than OS X10.9)?
  • d-ranged-range Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chabig View Post


    I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.



    Almost anybody who uses both OS X and some other *nix OS together, or wants to build and run open-source software not written for OS X, will want to have X11. If not to run X11 apps locally, it's invaluable to run remote X11 applications. I don't mind how it developed or distributed, as long as it doesn't mean X11 will break with every OS X update, and keeps up with modern OS X features to integrate with native Mac apps than plain xorg X11, for example.



    Not being able to run X11 apps at all could be reason to ditch OS X altogether for me. Yes, it's that important for my use.
  • unotherunother Posts: 40member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wol View Post


    Any guess if the successor of Mountain Lion (OS X 10.8) will have the version number OS X11 (rather than OS X10.9)?



    I'm guessing Apple will continue to iterate the "ten" schema (10.10, 10.11, etc.) until all devices go iOS-y.
  • foljsfoljs Posts: 244member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post


    Inkscape. GIMP's drawing sibling. As Illustrator is to Photoshop. I use both GIMP and Inkscape regularly.



    And this change won't bother me. Anyone nerdy enough to know what GIMP or Inkscape are, is nerdy enough to install XQuartz. If you know you need it, you can install it. Otherwise it doesn't take up space.



    - Jasen.



    Plus, we live in an era that even Linux distros are leaving X11 behind.



    Check the Wayland ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland...erver_protocol) ) and Ubuntu, for example.
  • fjpoblamfjpoblam Posts: 126member
    I use GIMP, not necessarily daily, but very frequently. I don't foresee a rewrite that'll run without X11. GIMP accomplishes some detail work not possible in, e.g., Pixelmator. And I'm not among the rich and famous who can afford to keep a copy of Photoshop hanging around in the shadows for detail work on *not only* photos but other graphics, for website maintenance. Unless I could find a realistic alternative to GIMP, I *depend* on X11!
  • archangel21xarchangel21x Posts: 88member
    The only time I have ever used X11 was for Gimp.
  • suddenly newtonsuddenly newton Posts: 13,116member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chabig View Post


    I've been using Mac OS X for ten years and never used X11 once. I doubt many do and those people still have the means to install it.



    I used it once, a long time ago. I'll miss it like I miss PowerPC support.

    Thank you, Apple for not bloating OS X after 10 years. This isn't Windows, after all.
  • suddenly newtonsuddenly newton Posts: 13,116member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by unother View Post


    I'm guessing Apple will continue to iterate the "ten" schema (10.10, 10.11, etc.) until all devices go iOS-y.



    The version odometer wraps at 256.
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