My TiVo cut this off. When Bill Wier is back in studio and saying that Apple has said they are welcome to go back in the future, is that the end of the report or was there more?
Hell, I'd love to take home roughly 82% of my wages after food and rent!!!!
Already covered in this thread. You can already save on your rent by bunking with people exactly like these people have. Why aren't you bunking with people to save money?
When labor is dirt cheap, you don't use robots. That's why china is great for labor-intensive production. If you want automation, you don't generally go to china.
And I'm happy with the work product. I can't recall a problem I've had with any Apple device I've owned that was assembly related and not a component failure. I guess my only complaint is non-iDevice related - all the heatsink compound the glob on before pressing on the heatsink. Every MBP I own I tear down, clean up, and replace the compound with something better.
Slight omission in that Bill Weir added 'if Apple offered to pay for the increases'. That was a rather stupid question on his part. Why would Foxconn say no to a doubling of wages if Apple was going to pay for the raises?
Which was a not so subtle implication that Apple makes too much money. This sort of thinking is consistent with the current socialist undertones of American politics these days. Corporations and the rich (the definition of which changes from day to day) should be forced to redistribute their wealth to the workers. Weir kept repeating that Apple was the "world's most valuable company" over and over.
Bottom line? Apple IS the world's most valuable company and they just need to get used to the bullseye on their backs. Every swinging dick leftie is gunning for them.
When labor is dirt cheap, you don't use robots. That's why china is great for labor-intensive production. If you want automation, you don't generally go to china.
Yup, a friend of mine works for Nokia and he has visited Nokia factories in China. He was surprised how little there was automation. The labor is so cheap that it doesn's pay to use robots.
i am aghast that foxconn charges for room and board ...(and that they don't increase the salary to cover the cost) apple should absolutely force foxconn the increase the workers wages to cover room & board... it's a communist country thus they should not have to pay to stay there.
yes, apple make their employees at head office pay for lunch etc, (so the cafeteria management doesn't start cutting corners in food quality, selection )
if you work in a lumber camp, you are well fed and it is free (cause a well fed person works better outside, and you don't have a choice)
i understand the reasons for the low wages, but I am disappointed that apple (though foxconn) makes the workers pay for room and board.
I was laughing along for the first two sentences, as your comment appeared very promising. But the last sentence is a step too far. Some things do not belong in a joke. Ever.
Agreed. Unfortunately, as people who directly experienced the horrors of Nazi concentration camps are now few and far between, the scale of the atrocity seems to be fading, and comments like the above will become more frequent.
i am aghast that foxconn charges for room and board ...(and that they don't increase the salary to cover the cost) apple should absolutely force foxconn the increase the workers wages to cover room & board... it's a communist country thus they should not have to pay to stay there...
i understand the reasons for the low wages, but I am disappointed that apple (though foxconn) makes the workers pay for room and board.
Apple doesn't make Foxconn do anything. Foxconnis a separate corporation, and they, like apple, will do what they can to maximize shareholder value. Also, just because the workers need to live near the company doesn't mean they shouldn't have to pay for room and board. If they weren't paying Foxconn, they'd be paying someone else, and all out of their earned income. If it would make you feel better, I guess Foxconn could lower their wages an equivalent amount and provide room and board for "free".
Agree and that is why the factory isn't in the USA.
That made sense when you were looking at production runs less than ~100k per month, and revisions every 3-6 months, but it doesn't seem as smart when you talk about products with ~5-10MM per month and a 12-month product cycle. It would seem much more logical to have it automated after you get past low-rate initial production.
Granted, the automation equipment would need to run about $15k per line position replaced (hopefully a single machine would have about 3-5x throughput so they could cost $50-75k per device), but it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch-- basically a $2.5B up-front hit to Apple with the benefit of diversifying production.
Rice, rotten cabbage and a tiny piece of hog jowls would cost you MUCH less than $10.00.
That is speculation and nothing more.
But in the right restaurants, rice, a tiny piece of hig jowls, and rotten cabbage could cost you MUCH more than ten dollars. Ever seen the portion sizes in a gourmet restaurant?
Go live at the YMCA. Or better yet, a youth hostel.
Hey, I lived at a youth hostel when I first started working as an engineer! It was 15 hours of wages to pay for a month's accommodation. (25 Hours at the nicer, second place.)
In terms of wages, the foxcon employees are able to save what the average Chinese person earns in a year.
I noticed Weir mentioned the suicide threats without saying the company or product. He did say it as a non-Apple part of Foxconn but it seems odd to not mention MS or Xbox.
Already covered in this thread. You can already save on your rent by bunking with people exactly like these people have. Why aren't you bunking with people to save money?
Already have - it's called the U.S. Navy.
Guaranteed worse working and living conditions and still took home less...
Probably better than they're going to be in a few years times when they get replaced by robots.
Poor buggers.
It is unlikely robots would replace them ever. Even on car assembly lines, been using robots for decades, robots cannot do everything. The human touch is still needed for the finer details of final assembly. Technology would have to change from what it is currently in order for robots to successfully assemble such fine electronic into nifty packages.
Very labor intensive! The same factory in the US would be done very differently.
You can't automate a factory of that nature. Retooling an automated factory takes considerably longer than teaching workers to use a different screw in a new place on a device or adding a new component altogether. It's also much cheaper than buying new machines every time you need new functionality to make a new model of device.
Human power allows for incredible flexibility if a design change occurs at the last minute before or during production. And as scale in production increases, human power widens the flexibility gap against automation. And I'm not even taking into consideration having workers moving from one project (iPhone assembly) to another (iPad assembly) when supply and demand fluctuate for different products.
Unfortunately, many people will look at these wages and have the knee jerk reaction that this is "wrong" and should be corrected by Apple and/or the U.S. That's because they will compare the wages to U.S. wages when it is not a 1:1 correlation. When looking at the prevailing wages of rural China and the other jobs available, this is a good job. That's why they are able to attract hundreds of thousands of workers. If you feel that's wrong then you need to take it up with the Chinese government. But first remember that the alternative is to back breaking work on a farm and earning much less money.
Do wages need to go up there? Yes. But let's not react to the report without thinking first.
Comments
My TiVo cut this off. When Bill Wier is back in studio and saying that Apple has said they are welcome to go back in the future, is that the end of the report or was there more?
That was the end.
Hell, I'd love to take home roughly 82% of my wages after food and rent!!!!
Already covered in this thread. You can already save on your rent by bunking with people exactly like these people have. Why aren't you bunking with people to save money?
When labor is dirt cheap, you don't use robots. That's why china is great for labor-intensive production. If you want automation, you don't generally go to china.
And I'm happy with the work product. I can't recall a problem I've had with any Apple device I've owned that was assembly related and not a component failure. I guess my only complaint is non-iDevice related - all the heatsink compound the glob on before pressing on the heatsink. Every MBP I own I tear down, clean up, and replace the compound with something better.
Slight omission in that Bill Weir added 'if Apple offered to pay for the increases'. That was a rather stupid question on his part. Why would Foxconn say no to a doubling of wages if Apple was going to pay for the raises?
Which was a not so subtle implication that Apple makes too much money. This sort of thinking is consistent with the current socialist undertones of American politics these days. Corporations and the rich (the definition of which changes from day to day) should be forced to redistribute their wealth to the workers. Weir kept repeating that Apple was the "world's most valuable company" over and over.
Bottom line? Apple IS the world's most valuable company and they just need to get used to the bullseye on their backs. Every swinging dick leftie is gunning for them.
And what are the average salaries for other types of work in China?
Here are some numbers. Not up-to-date but you get the general idea:
http://www.worldsalaries.org/china.shtml
When labor is dirt cheap, you don't use robots. That's why china is great for labor-intensive production. If you want automation, you don't generally go to china.
Yup, a friend of mine works for Nokia and he has visited Nokia factories in China. He was surprised how little there was automation. The labor is so cheap that it doesn's pay to use robots.
yes, apple make their employees at head office pay for lunch etc, (so the cafeteria management doesn't start cutting corners in food quality, selection )
if you work in a lumber camp, you are well fed and it is free (cause a well fed person works better outside, and you don't have a choice)
i understand the reasons for the low wages, but I am disappointed that apple (though foxconn) makes the workers pay for room and board.
I would like to earn a months rent with only 10 hours of work.
Go live at the YMCA. Or better yet, a youth hostel.
I was laughing along for the first two sentences, as your comment appeared very promising. But the last sentence is a step too far. Some things do not belong in a joke. Ever.
Agreed. Unfortunately, as people who directly experienced the horrors of Nazi concentration camps are now few and far between, the scale of the atrocity seems to be fading, and comments like the above will become more frequent.
And to put that in perspective, a $0.70 meal would cost $10 here.
Rice, rotten cabbage and a tiny piece of hog jowls would cost you MUCH less than $10.00.
i am aghast that foxconn charges for room and board ...(and that they don't increase the salary to cover the cost) apple should absolutely force foxconn the increase the workers wages to cover room & board... it's a communist country thus they should not have to pay to stay there...
i understand the reasons for the low wages, but I am disappointed that apple (though foxconn) makes the workers pay for room and board.
Apple doesn't make Foxconn do anything. Foxconnis a separate corporation, and they, like apple, will do what they can to maximize shareholder value. Also, just because the workers need to live near the company doesn't mean they shouldn't have to pay for room and board. If they weren't paying Foxconn, they'd be paying someone else, and all out of their earned income. If it would make you feel better, I guess Foxconn could lower their wages an equivalent amount and provide room and board for "free".
Agree and that is why the factory isn't in the USA.
That made sense when you were looking at production runs less than ~100k per month, and revisions every 3-6 months, but it doesn't seem as smart when you talk about products with ~5-10MM per month and a 12-month product cycle. It would seem much more logical to have it automated after you get past low-rate initial production.
Granted, the automation equipment would need to run about $15k per line position replaced (hopefully a single machine would have about 3-5x throughput so they could cost $50-75k per device), but it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch-- basically a $2.5B up-front hit to Apple with the benefit of diversifying production.
Rice, rotten cabbage and a tiny piece of hog jowls would cost you MUCH less than $10.00.
That is speculation and nothing more.
But in the right restaurants, rice, a tiny piece of hig jowls, and rotten cabbage could cost you MUCH more than ten dollars. Ever seen the portion sizes in a gourmet restaurant?
Go live at the YMCA. Or better yet, a youth hostel.
Hey, I lived at a youth hostel when I first started working as an engineer! It was 15 hours of wages to pay for a month's accommodation. (25 Hours at the nicer, second place.)
In terms of wages, the foxcon employees are able to save what the average Chinese person earns in a year.
It's really simple. If you don't like the living conditions, you don't take a job at Foxconn. What part of "personal choice" do you not understand?
By that logic, a starving man selling his shoes to eat is a freely made decision in a free marketplace guided by rational self-interest.
Already covered in this thread. You can already save on your rent by bunking with people exactly like these people have. Why aren't you bunking with people to save money?
Already have - it's called the U.S. Navy.
Guaranteed worse working and living conditions and still took home less...
Probably better than they're going to be in a few years times when they get replaced by robots.
Poor buggers.
It is unlikely robots would replace them ever. Even on car assembly lines, been using robots for decades, robots cannot do everything. The human touch is still needed for the finer details of final assembly. Technology would have to change from what it is currently in order for robots to successfully assemble such fine electronic into nifty packages.
Very labor intensive! The same factory in the US would be done very differently.
You can't automate a factory of that nature. Retooling an automated factory takes considerably longer than teaching workers to use a different screw in a new place on a device or adding a new component altogether. It's also much cheaper than buying new machines every time you need new functionality to make a new model of device.
Human power allows for incredible flexibility if a design change occurs at the last minute before or during production. And as scale in production increases, human power widens the flexibility gap against automation. And I'm not even taking into consideration having workers moving from one project (iPhone assembly) to another (iPad assembly) when supply and demand fluctuate for different products.
Do wages need to go up there? Yes. But let's not react to the report without thinking first.