Mac Pro Refesh in March

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  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 40,529member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by not1lost View Post


    are there rumors of a "case redesign" ? I've read "wishful thinking" but not anything solid? maybe I missed it?



    Oh boy, what're we talking about here? The thread's topic, laptops, or the iMac?



    Wait, I guess it doesn't matter. They're all expected to be redesigned.



    The MacBooks are supposed to get thinner like the Air. I figure they'll condense the line down to four models and just call them all "MacBook", but that's me.



    The iMac, I HOPE, will be dropping the optical drive. not much of a design change, sure, but it shows externally, and internally that'll be a BIG improvement for everything else.



    We're also actually thinking the Mac Pro will be getting a design change, if it gets updated at all. No optical drives means it can be smaller, a little thinner, and it'll probably get its internals moved around a little. No xMac, obviously, but changed a little.



    Quote:

    If they brought one out much different I would probably buy the old model, which would be enough for me anyway.



    Wait, you'd buy year-and-a-half-old tech just because you don't like the new design? Why?



    Quote:

    Just trying to get a good Mac and not be disappointed later as I am treading new waters here?.



    And that's the perfect way to go about it. Waiting and seeing.
  • hmmhmm Posts: 3,368member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Wait, you'd buy year-and-a-half-old tech just because you don't like the new design? Why?







    And that's the perfect way to go about it. Waiting and seeing.



    Well if you're concerned about problems with an updated design, you can always give it a few months for consistency issues to work their way out or just skip the first generation. Intel is on kind of a weird schedule right now. It looks like Ivy Bridge E doesn't come out until Q2 of next year. I don't see any major form factor changes given how hot Sandy will be running. They won't want to deal with added complexity there. Unless I'm incorrect there (which is entirely possible), I think the Mac Pro won't change up much until more like 2014 given that Ivy would reuse the same board like last time. That's my prediction anyway.
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 40,529member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmm View Post


    Well if you're concerned about problems with an updated design, you can always give it a few months for consistency issues to work their way out or just skip the first generation.



    That's true; I'd forgotten about that. Though these aren't cars we're talking about. I certainly wouldn't buy a first-gen of a car redesign, but a first-gen Apple product? In a heartbeat. First because I trust them to have made a proper product and second because I'll have AppleCare to sort out any issues that may arise.



    Quote:

    Intel is on kind of a weird schedule right now. It looks like Ivy Bridge E doesn't come out until Q2 of next year.



    Wait, WHAT?! Do they even want to SELL their products anymore?!
  • hmmhmm Posts: 3,368member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    That's true; I'd forgotten about that. Though these aren't cars we're talking about. I certainly wouldn't buy a first-gen of a car redesign, but a first-gen Apple product? In a heartbeat. First because I trust them to have made a proper product and second because I'll have AppleCare to sort out any issues that may arise.







    Wait, WHAT?! Do they even want to SELL their products anymore?!



    Apple notebooks do run a bit high in temperature. People have attributed this to many things. While technically within spec, sometimes it's kind of on the edge. I recall the first generation macbooks that really did overheat to the point of shutdown at times.



    It is pretty weird regarding Intel isn't it? I didn't expect them to be out soon, but I didn't expect it to be pushed this far back already, meaning the real date could be even worse.



    http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/dis...This_Year.html



    In the case of Sandy Bridge E, they supposedly encountered issues with the processor stepping and needed more time for bug fixes. Sandy Bridge E is also running quite hot. I'm not sure why it would be pushed back that far. I expected they'd try to catch up somewhat over the next couple cycles with just enough time in between to prevent a cpu generation from being eaten. I just find it weird hearing that Haswell may be out in other cpu sockets before Ivy Bridge E.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    http://macdailynews.com/2012/03/20/i...y-by-year-end/



    A disturbance in the force...there is.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    Hmm.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • hmmhmm Posts: 3,368member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post


    http://macdailynews.com/2012/03/20/i...y-by-year-end/



    A disturbance in the force...there is.



    Lemon Bon Bon.



    Steve Jobs would make a better Palpatine than Tim Cook.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post


    Hmm.



    Lemon Bon Bon.



    You rang?
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,767member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Octaine View Post


    Interesting how you try to undermine our views by trying to imply we work for HP which I do not. You ask what has resulted in the opinion that Apple has done with the pro user? Well where shall we start?



    Mac Pro last update when was that? July/ August 2010?



    Yes but what have we available from Intel that would have resulted in a significant update? It would be nice if Apple was more agressive with respect to GPU updates but then again when has Apple ever been serious about GPUs.



    I think the time to pass judgement here is faster the Mac Pros replacement comes out. Yes I do think it will be replaced as the platform is Basicaly a relic of the 80's.

    Quote:

    Scrapping of the Xserve



    ? Why, they never sold enough to justify the effort to make them. Besides when has any rational organization spent good money on a name plate for a server. They generally sit in the dark someplace far from view. I actually think Apple did Pros a favor here by getting them to look rationally at what a server is.

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    The Final Cut Pro debacle which has seen many pro video editors move away from Apple either software and or Hardware wise.



    A bunch of noise made by an industry run by immature fools. Seriously in the industry I work in you make your tools work for you. The chances that you will have the optimal tool for anyone project is very slim. So you either learn to leverage what you have or see your business go else where.



    In any event we are talking about release one of an entirely new product. A product that will just get better in the coming years.

    Quote:

    Lack of expandability and flexibility in there desktop line up excluding the Mac Pro which we really don't know what its fate is.



    Frankly I agree that the desktop line up is crap, I've been posting that for some time now. However that isn't just a slight against power users, it is basically a slap in the face of anybody seriously looking at a desktop Mac. So I really don't see how pro users are anything special here.

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    Look at the preview video on the Apple site about Mountain Lion and you will clearly see it all about bring the iPad and iPhone experience to the Mac.

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/



    Yeah, but again you look at Apples marketing glitz yet mis what is happening with the rest of the OS. Mac OS has been making significant if maybe slow strides, considering how it has developed in the past. GPU drives are improving, sometimes haphazzardly but none the less getting better, the UNIX infrastructure has been improving and I believe is now official considered to be UNIX. Tool kits are coming along nicely and things like GCD and OpenCL are enabling much of the improvements one is seeing in Mountain Lion.



    You might not want to believe me but you can see these improvements on older hardware such as my 2008 MBP. In general the OS is getting much better which benefits all users.



    Quote:



    Look though this form at how many pro users are asking for a the Mac Pro to be kept up to date do Apple listen to their Pro user base? I have got to say it does not look like it any more.



    I suspect the Mac Pro is dead! They are likely trying to build a machine that will actually sell and at the same time support a wider array of users. I know this freaks many Pro users out but the big towers of the past are not the way of the future. It won't be more than a year to a year and a half before a rather credible power users platform will come on a single SoC with RAM and a few support chips.

    Quote:



    As to your last point about mice, cheese and knee jerk reactions well if you re-read my post you will find I said I am waiting until November when I am ready to upgrade before making a decision. By that time we should know the direction Apple are taking with the Mac Pro and Mac in general. I would not call that a knee jerk reaction, just looking forward and planning for all eventualities based on the facts.



    I was referring more to the people looking at HP hardware as if the world of Sandy Bridge E has matured already. Personally I wouldn't even bother to look at Pro level hardware for another 4 months or more until all the platforms have delivered and proved themselves.
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,767member
    Sandy Bridge E and Ivy Brudge have both been delayed repeatedly. We have to acknowledge this before we become to hard on Apple this year.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Octaine View Post


    Indeed the hardware engineers have to work to squeeze everything into ever decreasing dimensions as prescribed by Ives.



    Actually it is the other way around, shrinking geometries are allowing Ives to deliver machines that weren't even possible a few years ago. More importantly without these shrinking systems the performance gains everybody craves would not come.



    Think about this, current GPUs have transitory counts in the billions and the CPUs aren't far behind. This is unheard of only a few years ago. More Importantly these chips run amazingly cool considering what is going on inside. So yeah I think you have things reversed here.



    Quote:





    You say Apple have pretty much abandoned the desktop yes I agree thats the whole problem the only machine you can expand and put a pro level graphics card etc in is the Mac Pro but thats more or less dead. I think that constitutes abandoning the Pro user unless they pull something good out of the hat this year but I would not put any money on that.



    Well my point is they have abandoned ALL desktop users. It isn't just a Pro thing.



    Quote:





    I hope so too.









    I agree with you here but we have been expecting a massive refactoring for sometime now. Lets face it Apple have the money, muscle and know how to have done this before now. Maybe it will happen this year, then again...



    Believe me if I don't see anything new and innovative, on the same scale as the new AIRs I will loose some faith here also. I really see this as the last year where they will have an opportunity to save face.

    Quote:







    You are right here Sony does have a Pro division shame Apple does not any more. As for not making use of photos and video well its kind of part and parcel of what I do but I think if you look at the Mountain Lion preview the focus is on the iOS experience so I think the writing is on the wall here for the future direction of the Mac here. Speaking for my self here it would be nice to have a full choice of pro graphics cards like Windows has. I think this is one area I would like to see OS X improve. My comments about Twitter etc were ment to highlight the fact that Apple now seems for the most part focused on the general consumer now and the needs of the pro user are secondary. May be its time for Apple to have division focused on the needs of the Pro user lets face it they have the resources to do that now.



    I'm not sure a Pro decision could survive at Apple. But yes they need to do something,

    Quote:



    One other point I found this link regarding Lion it seems to be from November last year but it sugests Lion was in 3rd place in terms of Mac OS market share. I have not yet upgrades to Lion I suppose I better as Mountain Lion will be out quite soon.



    http://www.redmondpie.com/os-x-lion-...rowth-slowing/




    You see this I really don't understand. I upgraded within hours after Lion came out. Never looked back! At least for me it runs all around better. The infrastructure just gets stronger.

    Quote:









    Agree with here on this one.











    Well Apple have the money and expertise to do it question is why is it taking so long? May be the answer is Apple's focus is now on iOS and the consumer. Just before Steve died was there not going to be some big announcement regarding the Mac? What happened to that? As to the ticking of boxes I think the Pro user has certain needs with you could boil down to expansion and flexibility both internal and external. It seems at times that when Apple innovates we have no choice but to fallow. If all is to be believed about the next lot of laptops there will be no optical disc. Great may be for you average punter but what about the rest of us have have a lot of data stored on DVD's? Oh thats right use an external drive but does that not make the laptop a little less portable and usable having to have an external drive to connect if you have data stored on a DVD. My point here is this might not be a problem for your average user but it seems like another limitation for a Pro user, again Apple's bias towards the consumer showing though. Lets hope we see some innovation for the Pro user this year and the desktop range.



    I really don't know wjphat is up at Apple. The last thing that was significantly improved was the Mini when it got the GPU. That was only one out of three models too. The problem with the Mini is that is too much of a step backwards for me and the Pro is just impossibly priced.



    So I'm hoping the whole desktop line gets trashed for a more rational lineup. Will that happen? I don't know, but I'm not going to let it hold me up. At some point even a Mini would be a major upgrade for me. It is all about the shrinking process technology.
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,767member
    It always amazes me that these things get spun positively for Intel while the same problems at AMD result in a public lashing. What is evempn more perplexing is that AMDs far better integrated GPUs would be ideal for many Apple hardware users.



    Proof is in the pudding with respect to the new iPad. The GPU performance on this machine is just wonderful. It highlight the importance of the GPU in delivering modern software.



    Not that Sandy Bridge E processors don't have a place in this world, just that they aren't critical to every need out there. The other thing here is that Ivy Bridge E processors probably don't offer a lotto justify deployment. After all most of the development effort for Ivy Bridge went into the GPU.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmm View Post


    Apple notebooks do run a bit high in temperature. People have attributed this to many things. While technically within spec, sometimes it's kind of on the edge. I recall the first generation macbooks that really did overheat to the point of shutdown at times.



    It is pretty weird regarding Intel isn't it? I didn't expect them to be out soon, but I didn't expect it to be pushed this far back already, meaning the real date could be even worse.



    They will come eventually. The problem is the PC world is changing rapidly and the market for suchnhips isn't what it was.

    Quote:



    http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/dis...This_Year.html



    In the case of Sandy Bridge E, they supposedly encountered issues with the processor stepping and needed more time for bug fixes. Sandy Bridge E is also running quite hot. I'm not sure why it would be pushed back that far. I expected they'd try to catch up somewhat over the next couple cycles with just enough time in between to prevent a cpu generation from being eaten. I just find it weird hearing that Haswell may be out in other cpu sockets before Ivy Bridge E.



    Sandy Bridge isn't so much running hot as it has had the clock Rate increased to maximize performance. Turn up the clock and chips run hotter, so the heat really isn't unexpected for a performance product.



    Intel could easily skip Ivy Bridge E in preference for the improved cores of Hazwell. Outside of the GPU Ivy Bridge doesn't offer a lot.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    [QUOTEI suspect the Mac Pro is dead! They are likely trying to build a machine that will actually sell and at the same time support a wider array of users. I know this freaks many Pro users out but the big towers of the past are not the way of the future. It won't be more than a year to a year and a half before a rather credible power users platform will come on a single SoC with RAM and a few support chips.

    [/QUOTE]



    ...



    iPad G5?



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    Quote:

    So I'm hoping the whole desktop line gets trashed for a more rational lineup. Will that happen? I don't know, but I'm not going to let it hold me up. At some point even a Mini would be a major upgrade for me. It is all about the shrinking process technology.



    Apple 'trash' their desktop line up to keep you happy? Unlikely. So keep 'hoping.' Maybe you should wait for next year's Hasswell based Mini..?



    It IS all about shrinking that process tech'. Looks at the G5. Looks at the new iPad... My, how things have changed...



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    I'm underwhelmed by Intel's monopoly desktop position producing lethargy. Is this anything new?



    AMD are equally culpable for dropping the ball. They have to compete better. They've had their chances and underdelivered. Intel pretty much smashed them with Core 2 and smashed them harder with i7.



    AMD being ahead on integrated crappics is a bit whoop de doo as much as the i7's nominal speed grades.



    They've both been guilty of taking ages to get where we are today. The gravity bending impact of the iPad market has caught them both napping.



    I'm far more impressed with what Apple's doing with the A5x SOC in a tiny cm thin device than the dinosaurs of yesterday scrambling to keep hold of the grains of sand slipping through their former empire.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    Quote:

    Well my point is they have abandoned ALL desktop users. It isn't just a Pro thing.



    eh?



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 40,529member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post


    eh?



    High-end Ivy Bridge desktop chips have been pushed to 2013. They don't really seem to care about getting things out in a timely manner.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    Quote:

    The last thing that was significantly improved was the Mini when it got the GPU.



    The mini had similar 'death knell' rumours before Apple came out with an update. As for 'significantly improved?' Apple took a step back with Intel when it adopted integrated crappics after boasting that their PPC mini had dedicated GPUs. *Shrugs. And it was cheaper, too. Apple FINALLY offered 'quad' core on a mini. Whoop. Years after quad core on the PC was mainstream. 'Late.' Significant? In the Apple scheme of things...perhaps. :/



    The iMac FINALLY has a top end machine worthy of the name. That was a significant moment after a few years of GPU side grades and process shrinks of older GPU cards and, again, it took wayyyyy too long for quad cores to hit the iMac. AND we STILL have to BTO the i7 after a few revisions. Pulease.



    Upsell? Greed?



    Is it anything new? Even when they had the old G3 towers at sane prices they didn't include monitors or decent gpu cards...and expected you to pay nostril ramming mark ups on RAM.



    The Pro. Well. It's a disaster. There's one of eight things they probably could have done to update the Pro which didn't include waiting on an Intel processor.



    Stingy components for the astro-humungous prices and crap gpus have been par the course for Apple desktops for as long as I remember since about 1997.



    The differentiating factors have been OS X, sexy design and...Steve Jobs.



    The Pro was good for it's time. Still a brilliant case. But it's as out of date as the Cube is now (though the latter may point to some kind of Pro compact desktop...who knows. We'd have to ask Apple...)



    The iMac is the best AIO out there. But Apple cream the specs...and do outrageous upsell. I think the top end iMac is a dream machine for me. Your mileage may vary. I think it looks like a work of art on my desk. I bought mine in a sale. Good screen. Decent GPU (again, it was a top end model...but why only a decent gpu on the top end model?) and CPU. I'd tear your arm off for a 27 inch iMac with that Ati GPU with 2 gigs of vram. It has most of the power I need. But I don't need to simulate weather I guess or do week long renders.



    Mini. Just put some decent specs in it. Why does Apple again...make you have to have the top end model to get discrete graphics..?



    They could cut the prices by a few hundred and up the specs in my view. But they're selling loads at the current prices so what do I know? Well. They're selling loads of laptops... But that's the fashion.



    Of the desktops they're selling they sell mainly iMacs. It's been that way for...uhm...since the iMac was introduced?! With Lion it now looks like a giant iPod/Phone. I can live with that.



    Apple are fashion.



    Just introduce a compact Pro and sell it from £995 to £1295 to £1495 to £1695. From quad to six to eight to a dual model. At prices real human beings can relate to. By the time you add an Apple monitor you're still having your ass reamed.



    Desktops? Well. It's Nearing the end of March and not a single Mac. Whiff. I don't begrudge the focus on iOS and the iPad. I think Apple have been due this level of success for a long time. It's a chance, Apple's 2nd chance to 'rightfully' own the computing market...an opportunity that was stolen from them the 1st time.



    Apple are projected to significantly outsell a great deal of the PC market this year with iPads. Writing. Meet Mr. Wall.



    I'm pretty confident we'll get some Mac updates in the mean time. *nervous tik.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    High-end Ivy Bridge desktop chips have been pushed to 2013. They don't really seem to care about getting things out in a timely manner.



    The Pro thing certainly holds some water. There's any number of things that could have been updated. Giving 45 billion to 'shareholders' is one thing. yet they can't update a Mac Pro and price it sanely?



    As for the iMac and Mini, aren't they waiting on laptop, coughs*, desktop processors to ship?



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    But isn't it Intel's job to ship competitive cpus? Mind you...if AMD aren't forcing the issue...



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • lemon bon bon.lemon bon bon. Posts: 2,102member
    Does anybody remember the days when Apple would kick start the new year with a mac or Mac Pro launch?



    Those were the days. :/



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 40,529member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post


    Does anybody remember the days when Apple would kick start the new year with a mac or Mac Pro launch?



    Those were the days. :/



    Apple Inc, not Apple Computer Inc.
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