Almost the end of March!

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  • loganhunterloganhunter Posts: 85member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmm View Post


    You should really look at HP and Lenovo. Even with the older hardware, they still charge quite a lot. The same is true with Boxx. Sometimes you can put together a configuration that's a better value. HP is the only one that's been very verbal about next generation workstation builds, but even then I recall the gpu options coming from last year as new Quadros haven't come out, and I think it was only the Z1 that was announced. Even if they come out with a new machine today, it'll be another long wait after that as Ivy Bridge E is more than a year out currently. In fact as of right now, Ivy Bridge E is scheduled after the earlier Haswell stuff.



    What software are you running with? I'd suggest that if you're considering a switch that you inquire with the software companies as to if any sidegrade options are available or if you can switch platforms with a license upgrade. Policies vary, so it would be helpful to know them. In terms of 3d modeling, I can't think of a single thing that isn't available on Windows. OpenGL performance in some cases is also better under Windows. It depends on the application.



    Anyway I don't think the silent treatment is going anywhere, and personally at this point I'm not truly expecting anything to hit before the summer. As I mentioned they're not chasing fourth quarter purchases or anything of that sort. You should spread some of the blame to Intel though. They aren't helping.



    You just can't say to a guy to change everything that way. If he is a professional 3D modeler, it's not just switching computers. Do you know how much does a license of a 3D modeling software cost? This not counting to other types of software he needs for his work may it be for texturing, additional rendering engines, animation software and so on... It's not something one will do lightly. His point of view is perfectly understandable. There's too much money on the story! Also, Apple is really being a d!ck to it's Pro users just because iPhones and iPads are selling like fresh bread at the bakery by the morning! I love Apple products but they must change their attitude towards their older user base which includes many Pros and more savvy users who like to upgrade their machines and not throwing them out 2 years after purchase like you would to a worn out pair of shoes.

    Just my 2 cents... Sorry if I "sounded" harsh.
  • tony3dtony3d Posts: 47member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LoganHunter View Post


    You just can't say to a guy to change everything that way. If he is a professional 3D modeler, it's not just switching computers. Do you know how much does a license of a 3D modeling software cost? This not counting to other types of software he needs for his work may it be for texturing, additional rendering engines, animation software and so on... It's not something one will do lightly. His point of view is perfectly understandable. There's too much money on the story! Also, Apple is really being a d!ck to it's Pro users just because iPhones and iPads are selling like fresh bread at the bakery by the morning! I love Apple products but they must change their attitude towards their older user base which includes many Pros and more savvy users who like to upgrade their machines and not throwing them out 2 years after purchase like you would to a worn out pair of shoes.

    Just my 2 cents... Sorry if I "sounded" harsh.



    This is very true. For instance I have more money sunk into plugins than my main software package is worth. I'm talking over $4000.00. thats just one package of plugin support. add another $2000. for the package itself plus all my support packages, and I think anyone can see why our community is upset.
  • loganhunterloganhunter Posts: 85member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tony3d View Post


    This is very true. For instance I have more money sunk into plugins than my main software package is worth. I'm talking over $4000.00. thats just one package of plugin support. add another $2000. for the package itself plus all my support packages, and I think anyone can see why our community is upset.



    Apple likes to keep its secrecy about unreleased products and I'm ok with that but on what Pro products is concerned I think it should be a little less tight lipped and let the Pro community know with same kind of advance how things are going to be.
  • hmmhmm Posts: 3,364member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LoganHunter View Post


    You just can't say to a guy to change everything that way. If he is a professional 3D modeler, it's not just switching computers. Do you know how much does a license of a 3D modeling software cost? This not counting to other types of software he needs for his work may it be for texturing, additional rendering engines, animation software and so on... It's not something one will do lightly. His point of view is perfectly understandable. There's too much money on the story! Also, Apple is really being a d!ck to it's Pro users just because iPhones and iPads are selling like fresh bread at the bakery by the morning! I love Apple products but they must change their attitude towards their older user base which includes many Pros and more savvy users who like to upgrade their machines and not throwing them out 2 years after purchase like you would to a worn out pair of shoes.

    Just my 2 cents... Sorry if I "sounded" harsh.



    I know exactly what this stuff costs. I said if he's considering a switch like he suggested, he could do the research. It wouldn't take more than a couple hours of phone calls/emails at most, and if that alleviates some of his stress on the matter, it's probably worth it. These software developers have policies on this stuff. Without checking their policies, you have no idea if or how much they would charge you to trade an OSX license for a Windows one. Most of them don't list it, but will tell you if you email or call sales. I didn't tell him to go repurchase everything.



    These things aren't all different software. Many of them have modeling/uv/texturing/animation tools. You get a base package. You buy additional stuff for any areas that suck, but he only mentioned doing modeling. Several of the major ones are bundled with rendering plugins that are quite good.



    The other thing to mention here is that Apple has been going this route for close to a decade at this point. It's annoying, but the other oems have been mostly silent too. In the case of Apple, the bloggers in a quest for page hits have gotten everyone on edge with speculation that the machine may be going away.



    Anyway you really are too snippy over this when I only suggested that he do his research if he considered this an option, and he's mentioned jumping to Windows in three threads now. Suggesting he review his options isn't in any way unreasonable.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tony3d View Post


    This is very true. For instance I have more money sunk into plugins than my main software package is worth. I'm talking over $4000.00. thats just one package of plugin support. add another $2000. for the package itself plus all my support packages, and I think anyone can see why our community is upset.



    Someone sounds like a Cinema4d user given that their packages are all modular.
  • MarvinMarvin Posts: 13,729member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tony3d View Post


    I think anyone can see why our community is upset.



    I can't particularly, given that we've established the earliest Mac Pro update could have arrived 3 weeks ago at best.



    Given that Apple has made a push for no optical drives, would they really continue to ship their highest-end machine with one? Also, Thunderbolt requires that the GPU be designed completely differently - if they don't support Thunderbolt, they can't have the Mac Pro support the Thunderbolt Cinema display properly.



    This points to a major redesign and such a redesign requires an event. Specifically an event geared towards high-resource users. Seems to me, such an event might be coming up in about 10 weeks.



    Now, while some may say that they don't do product intros at WWDC any more, last time the tower had a redesign they did:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsn27J_tlo



    It's been 9 years with the same chassis and that design has run its course. They need to think about what is happening over the next decade and plan for it. The current design is not fit for purpose.



    It makes absolute sense to ship it with Mountain Lion because it looks like it will finally support resolution independence.



    The same thing happened with FCPX. Current users had been on the edge of their seats for years waiting for an update and then out of the blue it came. It didn't go down so well, Randy went to Antarctica for a while but we are in a new place now. I think the same will happen with the Mac Pro. Some users will be pissed that there's no 'high-end' features like PCI slots or a 5.25" drive bay but you either embrace change or you grow stale holding onto the past.
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,716member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LoganHunter View Post


    Apple likes to keep its secrecy about unreleased products and I'm ok with that but on what Pro products is concerned I think it should be a little less tight lipped and let the Pro community know with same kind of advance how things are going to be.



    Answer this question, what good does it do for Apple?



    Let's say for example that the Mac Pro is going through a radical refactoring, that is a completely new design and concept. If that where to happen telling the competition 3-6 months ahead of time is rather stupid isn't it? More so customers would be wringing their hands for months, most likely about things they don't understand. Further without shipping hardware the product can be attacked by the competition well before it can be evaluated by the market.



    This doesn't even take into account the risks in pre announcing hardware that has the potential to slip dramatically. Case in point Sandy Bridge E has slipped significantly to the point that Intel should be embarrassed. However supplied hardware is not the only risk in delivering a new machine. Slipped hardware delivery dates just lead to frustrated customers. As to the Mac Pro this SB-E slippage is rather obvious so I really have to question the sanity of anybody that is whining about when the new Mac Pro will arrive. It would be like someone demanding that Chevy ship them a new truck even though they don't have an engine ready to go in the truck.



    Really guys I have to think people here getting so wrapped up in this machine and it's update or replacement, need to grab a hold of reality. The time to discuss the Mac Pros development is when the new model ships or it is canceled. Apple can't really concern itself with a few individuals with little grasp of the technical issues here.
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,716member
    More so they can't see the major changes that have been hitting the industry.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I can't particularly, given that we've established the earliest Mac Pro update could have arrived 3 weeks ago at best.



    Exactly! Even if Apple had a hardware platform ready I'd doubt they would want to ship anything SB-E related without much testing. That due to the chips history.



    That is just Sandy Bridge E, a significantly refactored Mac Pro would require testing with all other new hardware that it will be equipped with. Some of this hardware is also just hitting the market.

    Quote:



    Given that Apple has made a push for no optical drives, would they really continue to ship their highest-end machine with one? Also, Thunderbolt requires that the GPU be designed completely differently - if they don't support Thunderbolt, they can't have the Mac Pro support the Thunderbolt Cinema display properly.



    If one takes into consideration all the changes in hardware design that have happened in the last two years, it is hard to believe they would ship another Pro based on the same old design. Especially considering how bad Pro sales have been.



    Of course I was expecting a major refactoring of the Pro last year, but I'd rather think that Apple is working on getting the new hardware right before releasing to sales. In case anyone is wondering, yes it could take them years to bring an entirely new platform to us.

    Quote:



    This points to a major redesign and such a redesign requires an event. Specifically an event geared towards high-resource users. Seems to me, such an event might be coming up in about 10 weeks.



    Well I'm not convinced of an event, but I'm very much in a major redesign camp. Frankly it is the only way for them to deliver a platform that will have a future of five or more years.

    Quote:



    Now, while some may say that they don't do product intros at WWDC any more, last time the tower had a redesign they did:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsn27J_tlo



    Actually I suspect that they are setting us up for something at WWDC! They have already announced Mountain Lion, much of iOS is leaking out and HiDPI is on every bodies mind.

    Quote:



    It's been 9 years with the same chassis and that design has run its course. They need to think about what is happening over the next decade and plan for it. The current design is not fit for purpose.



    Exactly, a modern attempt at a Pro computer would be radically different than the current Mac Pro.

    Quote:



    It makes absolute sense to ship it with Mountain Lion because it looks like it will finally support resolution independence.



    What is important here is that resolution independence implies a major refactoring of the entire line up of Macs. It does makes me wonder if they will hold off the entire product line till WWDC. We are talking June 11th here.



    If the " When is the new Pro coming" crowd is up in arms now, a wait to June will lead to a few minds exploding. I suspect that even iMac and Mini users will start to whine.

    Quote:



    The same thing happened with FCPX. Current users had been on the edge of their seats for years waiting for an update and then out of the blue it came. It didn't go down so well, Randy went to Antarctica for a while but we are in a new place now. I think the same will happen with the Mac Pro. Some users will be pissed that there's no 'high-end' features like PCI slots or a 5.25" drive bay but you either embrace change or you grow stale holding onto the past.



    We will probably have the same number of people going ballistic over the new Mac Pros design as we did with FCPX. Like wise people will be so wrapped up in their disgust they won't be able to evaluate the product rationally. Instead they will go out and buy a 10U rack mounted computer and wonder why the graphics is so crappy.



    Oh about those slots. I suspect that they will still be there, at least a couple. They might not be the slots of old though, I still see Apple moving towards PCI-Express based storage modules.
  • tony3dtony3d Posts: 47member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    More so they can't see the major changes that have been hitting the industry.





    Exactly! Even if Apple had a hardware platform ready I'd doubt they would want to ship anything SB-E related without much testing. That due to the chips history.



    That is just Sandy Bridge E, a significantly refactored Mac Pro would require testing with all other new hardware that it will be equipped with. Some of this hardware is also just hitting the market.



    If one takes into consideration all the changes in hardware design that have happened in the last two years, it is hard to believe they would ship another Pro based on the same old design. Especially considering how bad Pro sales have been.



    Of course I was expecting a major refactoring of the Pro last year, but I'd rather think that Apple is working on getting the new hardware right before releasing to sales. In case anyone is wondering, yes it could take them years to bring an entirely new platform to us.



    Well I'm not convinced of an event, but I'm very much in a major redesign camp. Frankly it is the only way for them to deliver a platform that will have a future of five or more years.



    Actually I suspect that they are setting us up for something at WWDC! They have already announced Mountain Lion, much of iOS is leaking out and HiDPI is on every bodies mind.



    Exactly, a modern attempt at a Pro computer would be radically different than the current Mac Pro.



    What is important here is that resolution independence implies a major refactoring of the entire line up of Macs. It does makes me wonder if they will hold off the entire product line till WWDC. We are talking June 11th here.



    If the " When is the new Pro coming" crowd is up in arms now, a wait to June will lead to a few minds exploding. I suspect that even iMac and Mini users will start to whine.





    We will probably have the same number of people going ballistic over the new Mac Pros design as we did with FCPX. Like wise people will be so wrapped up in their disgust they won't be able to evaluate the product rationally. Instead they will go out and buy a 10U rack mounted computer and wonder why the graphics is so crappy.



    Oh about those slots. I suspect that they will still be there, at least a couple. They might not be the slots of old though, I still see Apple moving towards PCI-Express based storage modules.



    Well, this does make sense. Actually makes me fell a bit better. The thought of a pro grade product vanishing from the Mac line is unpleasant because I really don't want to go to Windows. So then if nothing is announced by WWDC, then is it pretty much over?
  • hmmhmm Posts: 3,364member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tony3d View Post


    Well, this does make sense. Actually makes me fell a bit better. The thought of a pro grade product vanishing from the Mac line is unpleasant because I really don't want to go to Windows. So then if nothing is announced by WWDC, then is it pretty much over?



    You have no reason to believe it's over. I've already told you other oems aren't that much more vocal. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Nothing anyone says on here will make even a slight difference in what actually happens. All they're giving you is logical guesses, but until something ships and you've verified it'll work for you (for example gpu driver bugs don't make your software crash or cause weird texture blooming or anything of that sort, speaking of which if you're using something by Autodesk, it'll probably be several months before they actually certify anything), all of this is meaningless, including rumors. The update may not even be as big of a step up as you would like from your current hardware. I think we'll see Sandy Bridge E5s and the latest AMD card running mountain lion, but like I said, my predictions don't mean anything until there is a shipping product.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post




    The same thing happened with FCPX. Current users had been on the edge of their seats for years waiting for an update and then out of the blue it came. It didn't go down so well, Randy went to Antarctica for a while but we are in a new place now. I think the same will happen with the Mac Pro. Some users will be pissed that there's no 'high-end' features like PCI slots or a 5.25" drive bay but you either embrace change or you grow stale holding onto the past.



    It's a matter of if a corresponding workflow via thunderbolt is available. If not I imagine most of them would delay purchases. This isn't uncommon. G5 PCI express from PCIX delayed purchases whenever people required some kind of interface. eSATA was much more common at that time given smaller drives and fewer internal bays. The wait for universal binary or Intel versions of applications motivated purchasing delays with things that couldn't fully operate through Rosetta, not that Apple did a bad job with Rosetta. It's just that it's normal to wait things out at times like this. In the case of FCPX the most vocal complaint seemed to be multicam editing or lack of it at the time of release. Like I said, it's normal to wait these things out after a big change. They'd only switch if something couldn't be worked around a year or more later. I don't think people are quite as finicky as you suggest.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post




    If the " When is the new Pro coming" crowd is up in arms now, a wait to June will lead to a few minds exploding. I suspect that even iMac and Mini users will start to whine.





    We will probably have the same number of people going ballistic over the new Mac Pros design as we did with FCPX. Like wise people will be so wrapped up in their disgust they won't be able to evaluate the product rationally. Instead they will go out and buy a 10U rack mounted computer and wonder why the graphics is so crappy.



    Oh about those slots. I suspect that they will still be there, at least a couple. They might not be the slots of old though, I still see Apple moving towards PCI-Express based storage modules.



    I mentioned something about FCPX already. Anyway the forums aren't really a good random sampling. Apple has done a lot of annoying things for years, and yet people continue to buy from them. I don't see it changing anytime soon. The primary irritation on hardware seems to be the notion of compromise in favor of aesthetics.



    Outside of the mac sites, you really don't hear a lot of the "when are the new mac pros coming?" rhetoric, even when you know plenty of mac pro users with 2008 or 2009 machines. I find the hatred of pci slots somewhat irrational. If they go away, people will simply wait until an updated solution becomes available via thunderbolt or whatever (although the bandwidth difference is still there). If a solution to their problem doesn't surface a year after that, that's when Apple might start to see heavy migration.



    Apple has definitely been pushing the laptops the past couple years. The one thing I still can't understand there is why they haven't done much to bring down temperatures. Extremely warm keys and constant fans become really irritating after a while, yet every one of them seems to exhibit this behavior when run moderately hard. I've read quite a few suggestions.... thermal paste is bad, fans get clogged easily, etc. I'm surprised Apple never addressed this in their design updates as the topic seems to come up frequently.
  • winterwinter Posts: 1,238member
    I find it hard to believe that Apple would kill the MP and make the iMac the top end machine. I do think we may see a smaller tower coming soon perhaps. I know Jony Ive has some brilliant ideas brewing and to be able to just flip through a binder of those would be a sight in and of itself.
  • loganhunterloganhunter Posts: 85member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Answer this question, what good does it do for Apple?



    Let's say for example that the Mac Pro is going through a radical refactoring, that is a completely new design and concept. If that where to happen telling the competition 3-6 months ahead of time is rather stupid isn't it? More so customers would be wringing their hands for months, most likely about things they don't understand. Further without shipping hardware the product can be attacked by the competition well before it can be evaluated by the market.



    This doesn't even take into account the risks in pre announcing hardware that has the potential to slip dramatically. Case in point Sandy Bridge E has slipped significantly to the point that Intel should be embarrassed. However supplied hardware is not the only risk in delivering a new machine. Slipped hardware delivery dates just lead to frustrated customers. As to the Mac Pro this SB-E slippage is rather obvious so I really have to question the sanity of anybody that is whining about when the new Mac Pro will arrive. It would be like someone demanding that Chevy ship them a new truck even though they don't have an engine ready to go in the truck.



    Really guys I have to think people here getting so wrapped up in this machine and it's update or replacement, need to grab a hold of reality. The time to discuss the Mac Pros development is when the new model ships or it is canceled. Apple can't really concern itself with a few individuals with little grasp of the technical issues here.



    I think you may have missed my point. I think they should release some info not the details. With some info I mean, looking at current situation of many time without updates, if the product is on the roadmap or not. They don't need to say if it's just a typical update or if it's a redesigned product. Still, I understand your point of view and I hope you don't see me as someone with lack of reasonableness. There's a lot of people on the pro segment which work structure relies on Apple machines and OS X software and if you, for a moment, get into their shoes you'll be concerned how painful can be standing on uncertainty.
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,716member
    However I still believe nothing good can come from Apple spilling the beans before hardware is fiapnalized and ready to ship. The computer industry especially has a significant history of companies doing such and then weeks later being in the dog house when something goes wrong.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LoganHunter View Post


    I think you may have missed my point. I think they should release some info not the details. With some info I mean, looking at current situation of many time without updates, if the product is on the roadmap or not.



    Product of some sort is on the roadmap! This is the problem I have, all this hand wringing is a fabrication of over active imaginations. There is nothing I've seen that idicates that Apple will give up completely on the desktop market. By this time though they must realize that the current desktop line up sucks.

    Quote:



    They don't need to say if it's just a typical update or if it's a redesigned product. Still, I understand your point of view and I hope you don't see me as someone with lack of reasonableness.



    Maybe it isn't so much reasonableness as rather a lack of historical knowledge of the computer industry. Many a company has been hit hard by announcing a product then not delivering on that promise. In the old days vapor ware was a common term.



    This doesn't even address the separate issue of tipping your hat to the competition.

    Quote:



    There's a lot of people on the pro segment which work structure relies on Apple machines and OS X software and if you, for a moment, get into their shoes you'll be concerned how painful can be standing on uncertainty.



    Believe me I understand the importance of the hardware and software. How ever much of what we hear in this forum about Pro hardware appears to have been pulled from the thin air. Really it is a proverbial making a mountain out of a molehill. It would be far better if people where to just relax and reflect upon the positive qualities that a new platform would bring to the desktop line up,
  • loganhunterloganhunter Posts: 85member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Product of some sort is on the roadmap!



    Is on the roadmap? How can you be so certain? I hope you're right.



    Quote:

    By this time though they must realize that the current desktop line up sucks.



    I'm not so sure... Apple attitude shows that they think their desktop line up is perfect which is not.





    Quote:

    Maybe it isn't so much reasonableness as rather a lack of historical knowledge of the computer industry. Many a company has been hit hard by announcing a product then not delivering on that promise. In the old days vapor ware was a common term.



    Again, I didn't say anything about announcing products or market that the product will do this or that . I just said, given the fact that the last update was so long ago, that they should IMHO say something to the REAL pro users which I'm sure Apple knows who they are. When you say you're doing something you can say just that "I'm doing something" you don't need to say anything about it. Yes, it teases people but it doesn't let them in the dark so much.



    Quote:

    Believe me I understand the importance of the hardware and software. How ever much of what we hear in this forum about Pro hardware appears to have been pulled from the thin air. Really it is a proverbial making a mountain out of a molehill. It would be far better if people where to just relax and reflect upon the positive qualities that a new platform would bring to the desktop line up,



    Well... that's kind of unavoidable. You know people likes to make predictions. I agree people should "relax and reflect upon the positive qualities that a new platform would bring to the desktop line up" but... will that new platform really is going to exist?
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