You can't charge someone based on who they are. You must charge them based on what they are purchasing.
Not true. Not unless you are talking about FRAND patents. Otherwise anything goes.
Apple used their fake company to get a fair price and avoid leaks. And there is nothing illegal about that.
Lying about what you can sell, that's a different game.
If they have the proof they claim this case should have ended ages ago if not for courts that want to play games especially over the 'fraud' damages and making Apple pay 30 time as much for China than they did for all the rest.
In Asia (no offense to Japan) I notice a common practice is you charge someone based on as much money you can make. At least in Malaysia, Thailand and China.
This is why in Malaysia for example, bargaining is a very common custom, distilled in modern 21st Century form to someone asking, "Best price Bro?" as you will notice from LowYat Forums online. This of course extends to real-world bargaining for everything from a pair of socks through to a 50 billion ringgit contract.
Price enquiry is done not as a formal estimation process in most transactions, but to test the waters (also used colloquially as "test water" [sic]).
This is why outside of major department chains and more formal food franchises, a "price list" of any sort is mostly irrelevant (yes some food stalls have price lists but they don't show you the array of options available, even when they do have an extensive list it is still hard to cover everything that's available in such a diverse and wide food culture).
If you ever go to Petaling Street in Kuala Lumpur for souvenirs and stuff or Low Yat Plaza for gadgetry bargaining is expected, but keep in mind there are incidences of harassment and/or violence if you don't go through with the purchase. The situation is complex because sometimes, like in Low Yat, certain things like the latest GPU cards are as low as others are willing to sell it, so you can't get that much of a discount, but cameras vary a lot in their pricing.
The criminal element though is always a concern, and shameful for some locals (that care about these things) who see tourists/foreigners getting cheated or even beaten up (as is the case with foreign workers from the Indian subcontinent, for example).
Interestingly all the above do not apply to food hawkers, food and drink items are normally not bargained. Funny that, just realised it.
Just Curious?
How many years did you live in Malaysia, Sunilrman? I lived in that great country three years and certainly bargaining is part of the market system. Bargaining is common in North America,too. I can’t comment on Australia as I have only passed over that part of the world, but houses, cars, some electronic devices, cable services are up for discussion over price. I have a neighbour who twice now has had large sums taken off his gas metre in the line of bargaining over errors in his billing. I’ve heard of phone bills being reduced.
I’ve been to Petaling St, a common tourist area I believe, many other markets in Kuala Lumpur, P. Penang, and towns and cities up and down the west coast, to Kuching, Lundu, Julau in Sarawak; too many places to remember with out a map. Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines. I have visited, Hong Kong, so yup, bargaining is all part of the culture in much of Asia, though much more so than in North America. I’ve heard it is done in the continent south of us.
Some “deals” one can do very well on if you know the game and have a sense of humour. Losing the first sale of the day is not good karma so if you’re in an empty shop early, you may get your purchase at business cost or better; mean and aggressive doesn’t work very well. There are emporiums, small and huge which may sell on list price but are usually open to bargaining—closer to always, actually. It’s almost a pastime like park chess. I have bargained in China towns in Vancouver and Calgary. I’ve met a few dishonest hawkers but most are as honest as the businessmen you meet on most white streets in your and my part of the world.
(Business people have been studied and the richer they are the closer to psychopaths, their personalities were found to be. That would encompass all nations, all races, so be careful wherever you are when there's money in your pocket.)
And speaking of “white”, do you have problems with "persons of colour", "non-whites" or however you identify “unlike-you” people? Words such as ****, scum and slum courts seem to roll off your tongue like drool from a mad dog’s mouth.
As always, people seem fixated on my nationality, culture and ethnicity. If people don't look at my posts or location, I am a superior American. If they see Australia, they think it's not that different. Then of course, whether I am Caucasian or not, which seems to either validate or invalidate my comments.
I will go on record as I have many times throughout my posts. I'll leave it for later so you can accuse me of various things.
An interesting phrase I heard is that the developed countries pushed the world to the brink but the developing world will push it over the edge.
Wealthy developed countries need to stop with their self-imposed endless guilt and nonsensical political correctness. It's okay to be mad at China. It's okay to be concerned about India stealing your jobs. It's okay to worry about Middle Eastern women who are totally covered up walking around your streets. It's okay to not want a mosque in your neighbourhood. You've had churches for centuries. It's okay to want to hang on to that.
I acknowledge and admire the tolerance and acceptance now widespread within Western culture.
But at the end of the day, the irony this decade is that Westerners and Asians are no more or less racist than each other, and living conditions in Asia are mostly not pleasant despite all the shortcomings of the West.
I understand Western cultures seeking atonement for various atrocities but I hope to convey that they can ~now~ play a beneficial and essential role in Asia, and is arguably a stabilising presence in developing countries. If you truly care that much about justice, equality and responsible government then you will look at Asia objectively and see, amongst other things, how history is repeating itself.
Does humanity progress or do we spend the next 100 years merely addressing what the West already took centuries and much brinkmanship to resolve?
I know this is destined for PoliticalOutsider but since questions have been directed at me I will respond accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
Just Curious?
How many years did you live in Malaysia, Sunilrman?
I am a Malaysian citizen and have clocked up about 20 years in Malaysia excluding holidays "back there". As however I am non-Islamic and of non-Malay ethnicity (Chinese-Indian, for the record), I have spent all that time in subjugation and subject to more discrimination than I have ever faced in Caucasian-dominant countries. Most non-Malays in Malaysia, who form a significant population but still the minority by far, would give up, and do sacrifice immensely (how does my parents' life savings sound?) to be discriminated in whatever minor form in Caucasian-dominant developed countries. Please look up the "Bersih" movement of Malaysia, and let me know if you've actually talked about any of this to locals during your jolly time in Malaysia.
One may also notice that if they had visited Malaysia over several decades, not for a whirlwind holiday, that dressing has becoming increasingly conservative leading to increased oppression of women in the public sphere. A silly example but pertinent ~ most guys would really drool over any woman not wearing a bra, the difference is in Malaysia if you are Malay Muslim this is entirely not allowed, and against your own choices... Not to mention covering the head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
...great country...
I beg to differ, and many Malaysian citizens have struggled for decades to right many issues with "our" country. If other nations do not see our plight then our struggles and suffering has been for nothing. We don't want Westerners to tell us how good things are in our country, we want you to help us address the deep institutionalised racism, political and financial corruption, lack of rule of law, and outrageous, blatant Islamisation of a supposedly secular nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
...Certainly bargaining is part of the market system. Bargaining is common in North America,too. I can’t comment on Australia as I have only passed over that part of the world, but houses, cars, some electronic devices, cable services are up for discussion over price. I have a neighbour who twice now has had large sums taken off his gas metre in the line of bargaining over errors in his billing. I’ve heard of phone bills being reduced.
There's a difference. The topic we are talking about is ethical pricing of things. The gradation is this ~ you mention correcting errors in billing. That is different from putting a price tag of $200 when you know you're going to sell it at $35. Yes, some bargaining is common in Western countries, but there are differences which I could elucidate in a separate thread in Political Outsider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
...I’ve been to Petaling St, a common tourist area I believe, many other markets in Kuala Lumpur, P. Penang, and towns and cities up and down the west coast, to Kuching, Lundu, Julau in Sarawak; too many places to remember with out a map. Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines. I have visited, Hong Kong, so yup, bargaining is all part of the culture in much of Asia, though much more so than in North America. I’ve heard it is done in the continent south of us.
I don't require your credentials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
Some “deals” one can do very well on if you know the game and have a sense of humour. Losing the first sale of the day is not good karma so if you’re in an empty shop early, you may get your purchase at business cost or better; mean and aggressive doesn’t work very well. There are emporiums, small and huge which may sell on list price but are usually open to bargaining—closer to always, actually. It’s almost a pastime like park chess. I have bargained in China towns in Vancouver and Calgary. I’ve met a few dishonest hawkers but most are as honest as the businessmen you meet on most white streets in your and my part of the world.
There's a difference between Chinatown and China. There's a difference between fun, and people getting beaten up in your own city because the traders didn't like you.
Again assumptions are being made in what is my street, whether a "white street" or not. Would it help to mention that my current street in Australia is often beset by drunk or drugged-up aboriginals? Or is that not politically correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
(Business people have been studied and the richer they are the closer to psychopaths, their personalities were found to be. That would encompass all nations, all races, so be careful wherever you are when there's money in your pocket.)
And this is an issue. Over centuries, developed countries have significantly embarked on procedures to limit the "rule of money". They have been successful, but of course the price of freedom is eternal vigilance etc. Recently in developed country we've seen this psychopathy in the financial system. What I'm conveying here, with language no doubt that ruffles feathers, is to prevent the cycle from repeating itself, and this time, not condemning hundreds of millions, but billions, to the equivalent of modern medieval existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
And speaking of “white”, do you have problems with "persons of colour", "non-whites" or however you identify “unlike-you” people? Words such as ****, scum and slum courts seem to roll off your tongue like drool from a mad dog’s mouth.
If you are so concerned about race equality, then surely you would be well-informed enough to realise my name is of common Indian heritage, merely two very common names, first and last, joined together as per username for websites. The lack of grasping my username, may suggest that your cultural awareness has room for improvement.
At best you could have called me a traitor to my own "non-white" people (which means what? Chinese? Indian? Hispanic? Black?)
There's a stark difference to wealthy people from developed countries visiting less-fortunate countries, than such developing country nationals struggling each day.
Let us not repeat colonial mentality in the guise of political correctness and the overwhelming need to atone for the sins of the forefathers of developed countries.
The West has no doubt caused much damage throughout history in trying to "correct the wrongs" of the world. Let us not repeat that by the main issue that caused such misplaced altruism ~ lack of knowledge and awareness, lack of local needs, wants and concerns.
Asia does need factories, development and so on. It does not need more money per se. It also needs better education, sustainability guidance and improvements in governance.
Look at this first before navel-gazing and saying. "Well, who are we to judge and correct?" ~ You are capable of doing so ~because~ you have the political, financial, historical and other will ~as a member of humanity~ ... If one truly cares, you will look at the on-the-ground scenario and look at things such as why Chinese migrants in a Vancouver Chinatown can speak better English than a Cantonese-Chinese who grew up in Malaysia and has studied spoken and written English as a subject all their life.
"What opiate to use". Interesting choice of words. The phrase about the Mafia is also interesting. Do you really believe that australian or american or british or german or french business is morally superior?
Come on. Not to even think of the cases where occidental business actively aids dictators
Little reminder: the Ivy League Universities were funded on money gained from OPIATE TRADE. This trade was imposed on China by a military alliance of France, UK and the USA. River of Pearls etc...
On top of this, big banks, weapon makers and railroads (if you don't see the link, check out JP Morgan's life) used their tremendous weight to force legislation in their interest rather than that of the people, not to mention they exploited the world and caused two world wars by their greediness.
Hence, "chinese slumcourts" might be true, or not. What is sure, is that Americans have absolutely no legitimity to say "hey, we're morally superior". As to Australians...I don't know. I'm sure you can dig some dirt on your own, there always is (which is my point, really). Maybe look at oil conflicts in the north (Spratleys, Indonesia)... No country has yet proven moral superiority
Acts, not words.
All this lengthy rambling is well and good but again, did I say "Americans and Australians are morally superior"? I am highlighting the issues in Asia and am trying to make the case, however repulsive to some, of the important role developed countries have in ~preventing~ the developing country from annihilating whatever quality of human life we have left in the world.
As for Europe, non-Mulsim Asians are very well aware of entire neighbourhoods surrounded to Muslim enclaves, and we see that in several Asian countries as well which were once multi-religion and multi-ethnic.
I know this is destined for PoliticalOutsider but since questions have been directed at me I will respond accordingly.
I am a Malaysian citizen ...etc.
I beg to differ, and many Malaysian citizens have struggled for decades to right many issues with "our" country. ... etc.
---
Mr Sunilraman, let me get this straight. We are supposed to accept someone’s username, place of posting, and anything else s/he purports about self as fact and legitimate as a notarised birth certificate? One can claim anything on the internet that s/he thinks is to one’s advantage. On a Piers Morgan’s CNN forum on the Trayvon Martin case every (or almost every) posting African-American claims to support Morgan in the dispute with Touré. Well, I wrote in on that one and claimed to be Plutonian, an immigrant from the Planet Pluto and that claim has about as much authority as the ones from the others.
A little history you ignore as you walk through life feeling imposed upon (I am sure you are fully aware) is that Malaysia is the perfect example of a country who’s nation was changed in the most inscrutable way by people who would have fought to the death if another ethnic culture tried to do the same to their nation, people and culture. The Bumiputra population, (Malay and Dyak and other indigenous populations), the original peoples of Malaysia now barely make up half the population of the country. You are fully aware that there were Chinese and Indians and Spanish among other nationals in Malaysia before the British overtook the region as a colony. You also know that for the most part, traders over the millennium came and went but some chose to remain in the region, married into and became part of the greater culture.
But when the British came they overwhelmed the original populations with vast numbers of migrant workers for the labour fields in all sectors of the society. Sarawak and Sabah and some regions of the Malay peninsula were special cases where the Islamic culture had not completely supplanted historic cultures and Animism remained as the ruling culture. The Abrahamic religions did not get a toe hold in the Sarawak region until Brooke came along and brought his era’s form of “civilisation” to the warring tribes. In the least he saved some of the gentler or weaker tribes from the famous Dyak headhunters of the time.
The fact remains that there is a difference between a nation like Australia, Canada and other European cultural nations accepting and even blessing multiculturalism. But what happened in Malaysia by the British was rape, pure and simple. The Malays and other Bumiputra populations did not have a chance against the superior market skills of the British, the Chinese and the Indian cultures anymore than did the indigenous peoples have against the previous onslaught of Islam. The introductions of the Chinese and Indians in the numbers the British supervised was as subversive as the British and American introduction of non-resident Jews into Palestine in more recent times. Many of the Chinese and Indians have been as methodical as the new Israelis in refusing to respect the history and nature of the original inhabitance just as the invading Europeans were and are negligent to the native populations in the Americas and Australia.
India fought and rightfully won its war in independence*. In the history of the rise of civilisation it has been only the past two or three centuries that Europe/America have had the largest and most productive economies in the world. China and India* have had the largest and most productive economies for the greatest part of the past three millennia and both are on the rise and will re-establish their place in the economic scheme of the world, possibly in both our lifetimes.
You obviously have the experience and knowledge to do an honest, honourable job at explaining and, more importantly, understanding the things you raise on this site but you have a mind closed to the ramifications of the complex history that lies outside your own interests and the naturally self-centred biases we all have of our historical culture. This bias is ignorantly (as in being unaware of - not in the pejorative sense) selfish and in total denial of the true and real interconnectivity of our species, a point of view we must all work to overcome.
I don’t have all the answers and understanding and neither do you, sir, but we all can strive to expand our truer understanding and work to let go our ignorances and faulty understandings. The old American saying, “My Country (Ideas) Right or Wrong”, deserves its place on the bonfire of history.
* The Chinese may have been the first to make wrought iron in the 6th C BCE and when the British first came to India, India was the largest producer of Iron in the world.
* India won its war through persistent non-violence and negotiation rather than through war, lessons that have been sadly lost to the powerful rulers of Britain, America and Israel.
Comments
You can't charge someone based on who they are. You must charge them based on what they are purchasing.
Not true. Not unless you are talking about FRAND patents. Otherwise anything goes.
Apple used their fake company to get a fair price and avoid leaks. And there is nothing illegal about that.
Lying about what you can sell, that's a different game.
If they have the proof they claim this case should have ended ages ago if not for courts that want to play games especially over the 'fraud' damages and making Apple pay 30 time as much for China than they did for all the rest.
Little reminder: the Ivy League Universities were funded on money gained from OPIATE TRADE.
In Asia (no offense to Japan) I notice a common practice is you charge someone based on as much money you can make. At least in Malaysia, Thailand and China.
This is why in Malaysia for example, bargaining is a very common custom, distilled in modern 21st Century form to someone asking, "Best price Bro?" as you will notice from LowYat Forums online. This of course extends to real-world bargaining for everything from a pair of socks through to a 50 billion ringgit contract.
Price enquiry is done not as a formal estimation process in most transactions, but to test the waters (also used colloquially as "test water" [sic]).
This is why outside of major department chains and more formal food franchises, a "price list" of any sort is mostly irrelevant (yes some food stalls have price lists but they don't show you the array of options available, even when they do have an extensive list it is still hard to cover everything that's available in such a diverse and wide food culture).
If you ever go to Petaling Street in Kuala Lumpur for souvenirs and stuff or Low Yat Plaza for gadgetry bargaining is expected, but keep in mind there are incidences of harassment and/or violence if you don't go through with the purchase. The situation is complex because sometimes, like in Low Yat, certain things like the latest GPU cards are as low as others are willing to sell it, so you can't get that much of a discount, but cameras vary a lot in their pricing.
The criminal element though is always a concern, and shameful for some locals (that care about these things) who see tourists/foreigners getting cheated or even beaten up (as is the case with foreign workers from the Indian subcontinent, for example).
Interestingly all the above do not apply to food hawkers, food and drink items are normally not bargained. Funny that, just realised it.
Just Curious?
How many years did you live in Malaysia, Sunilrman? I lived in that great country three years and certainly bargaining is part of the market system. Bargaining is common in North America,too. I can’t comment on Australia as I have only passed over that part of the world, but houses, cars, some electronic devices, cable services are up for discussion over price. I have a neighbour who twice now has had large sums taken off his gas metre in the line of bargaining over errors in his billing. I’ve heard of phone bills being reduced.
I’ve been to Petaling St, a common tourist area I believe, many other markets in Kuala Lumpur, P. Penang, and towns and cities up and down the west coast, to Kuching, Lundu, Julau in Sarawak; too many places to remember with out a map. Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines. I have visited, Hong Kong, so yup, bargaining is all part of the culture in much of Asia, though much more so than in North America. I’ve heard it is done in the continent south of us.
Some “deals” one can do very well on if you know the game and have a sense of humour. Losing the first sale of the day is not good karma so if you’re in an empty shop early, you may get your purchase at business cost or better; mean and aggressive doesn’t work very well. There are emporiums, small and huge which may sell on list price but are usually open to bargaining—closer to always, actually. It’s almost a pastime like park chess. I have bargained in China towns in Vancouver and Calgary. I’ve met a few dishonest hawkers but most are as honest as the businessmen you meet on most white streets in your and my part of the world.
(Business people have been studied and the richer they are the closer to psychopaths, their personalities were found to be. That would encompass all nations, all races, so be careful wherever you are when there's money in your pocket.)
And speaking of “white”, do you have problems with "persons of colour", "non-whites" or however you identify “unlike-you” people? Words such as ****, scum and slum courts seem to roll off your tongue like drool from a mad dog’s mouth.
I will go on record as I have many times throughout my posts. I'll leave it for later so you can accuse me of various things.
An interesting phrase I heard is that the developed countries pushed the world to the brink but the developing world will push it over the edge.
Wealthy developed countries need to stop with their self-imposed endless guilt and nonsensical political correctness. It's okay to be mad at China. It's okay to be concerned about India stealing your jobs. It's okay to worry about Middle Eastern women who are totally covered up walking around your streets. It's okay to not want a mosque in your neighbourhood. You've had churches for centuries. It's okay to want to hang on to that.
I acknowledge and admire the tolerance and acceptance now widespread within Western culture.
But at the end of the day, the irony this decade is that Westerners and Asians are no more or less racist than each other, and living conditions in Asia are mostly not pleasant despite all the shortcomings of the West.
I understand Western cultures seeking atonement for various atrocities but I hope to convey that they can ~now~ play a beneficial and essential role in Asia, and is arguably a stabilising presence in developing countries. If you truly care that much about justice, equality and responsible government then you will look at Asia objectively and see, amongst other things, how history is repeating itself.
Does humanity progress or do we spend the next 100 years merely addressing what the West already took centuries and much brinkmanship to resolve?
Just Curious?
How many years did you live in Malaysia, Sunilrman?
I am a Malaysian citizen and have clocked up about 20 years in Malaysia excluding holidays "back there". As however I am non-Islamic and of non-Malay ethnicity (Chinese-Indian, for the record), I have spent all that time in subjugation and subject to more discrimination than I have ever faced in Caucasian-dominant countries. Most non-Malays in Malaysia, who form a significant population but still the minority by far, would give up, and do sacrifice immensely (how does my parents' life savings sound?) to be discriminated in whatever minor form in Caucasian-dominant developed countries. Please look up the "Bersih" movement of Malaysia, and let me know if you've actually talked about any of this to locals during your jolly time in Malaysia.
One may also notice that if they had visited Malaysia over several decades, not for a whirlwind holiday, that dressing has becoming increasingly conservative leading to increased oppression of women in the public sphere. A silly example but pertinent ~ most guys would really drool over any woman not wearing a bra, the difference is in Malaysia if you are Malay Muslim this is entirely not allowed, and against your own choices... Not to mention covering the head.
...great country...
I beg to differ, and many Malaysian citizens have struggled for decades to right many issues with "our" country. If other nations do not see our plight then our struggles and suffering has been for nothing. We don't want Westerners to tell us how good things are in our country, we want you to help us address the deep institutionalised racism, political and financial corruption, lack of rule of law, and outrageous, blatant Islamisation of a supposedly secular nation.
...Certainly bargaining is part of the market system. Bargaining is common in North America,too. I can’t comment on Australia as I have only passed over that part of the world, but houses, cars, some electronic devices, cable services are up for discussion over price. I have a neighbour who twice now has had large sums taken off his gas metre in the line of bargaining over errors in his billing. I’ve heard of phone bills being reduced.
There's a difference. The topic we are talking about is ethical pricing of things. The gradation is this ~ you mention correcting errors in billing. That is different from putting a price tag of $200 when you know you're going to sell it at $35. Yes, some bargaining is common in Western countries, but there are differences which I could elucidate in a separate thread in Political Outsider.
...I’ve been to Petaling St, a common tourist area I believe, many other markets in Kuala Lumpur, P. Penang, and towns and cities up and down the west coast, to Kuching, Lundu, Julau in Sarawak; too many places to remember with out a map. Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines. I have visited, Hong Kong, so yup, bargaining is all part of the culture in much of Asia, though much more so than in North America. I’ve heard it is done in the continent south of us.
I don't require your credentials.
Some “deals” one can do very well on if you know the game and have a sense of humour. Losing the first sale of the day is not good karma so if you’re in an empty shop early, you may get your purchase at business cost or better; mean and aggressive doesn’t work very well. There are emporiums, small and huge which may sell on list price but are usually open to bargaining—closer to always, actually. It’s almost a pastime like park chess. I have bargained in China towns in Vancouver and Calgary. I’ve met a few dishonest hawkers but most are as honest as the businessmen you meet on most white streets in your and my part of the world.
There's a difference between Chinatown and China. There's a difference between fun, and people getting beaten up in your own city because the traders didn't like you.
Again assumptions are being made in what is my street, whether a "white street" or not. Would it help to mention that my current street in Australia is often beset by drunk or drugged-up aboriginals? Or is that not politically correct.
(Business people have been studied and the richer they are the closer to psychopaths, their personalities were found to be. That would encompass all nations, all races, so be careful wherever you are when there's money in your pocket.)
And this is an issue. Over centuries, developed countries have significantly embarked on procedures to limit the "rule of money". They have been successful, but of course the price of freedom is eternal vigilance etc. Recently in developed country we've seen this psychopathy in the financial system. What I'm conveying here, with language no doubt that ruffles feathers, is to prevent the cycle from repeating itself, and this time, not condemning hundreds of millions, but billions, to the equivalent of modern medieval existence.
And speaking of “white”, do you have problems with "persons of colour", "non-whites" or however you identify “unlike-you” people? Words such as ****, scum and slum courts seem to roll off your tongue like drool from a mad dog’s mouth.
If you are so concerned about race equality, then surely you would be well-informed enough to realise my name is of common Indian heritage, merely two very common names, first and last, joined together as per username for websites. The lack of grasping my username, may suggest that your cultural awareness has room for improvement.
At best you could have called me a traitor to my own "non-white" people (which means what? Chinese? Indian? Hispanic? Black?)
There's a stark difference to wealthy people from developed countries visiting less-fortunate countries, than such developing country nationals struggling each day.
Let us not repeat colonial mentality in the guise of political correctness and the overwhelming need to atone for the sins of the forefathers of developed countries.
The West has no doubt caused much damage throughout history in trying to "correct the wrongs" of the world. Let us not repeat that by the main issue that caused such misplaced altruism ~ lack of knowledge and awareness, lack of local needs, wants and concerns.
Asia does need factories, development and so on. It does not need more money per se. It also needs better education, sustainability guidance and improvements in governance.
Look at this first before navel-gazing and saying. "Well, who are we to judge and correct?" ~ You are capable of doing so ~because~ you have the political, financial, historical and other will ~as a member of humanity~ ... If one truly cares, you will look at the on-the-ground scenario and look at things such as why Chinese migrants in a Vancouver Chinatown can speak better English than a Cantonese-Chinese who grew up in Malaysia and has studied spoken and written English as a subject all their life.
"What opiate to use". Interesting choice of words. The phrase about the Mafia is also interesting. Do you really believe that australian or american or british or german or french business is morally superior?
Come on. Not to even think of the cases where occidental business actively aids dictators
Little reminder: the Ivy League Universities were funded on money gained from OPIATE TRADE. This trade was imposed on China by a military alliance of France, UK and the USA. River of Pearls etc...
On top of this, big banks, weapon makers and railroads (if you don't see the link, check out JP Morgan's life) used their tremendous weight to force legislation in their interest rather than that of the people, not to mention they exploited the world and caused two world wars by their greediness.
Hence, "chinese slumcourts" might be true, or not. What is sure, is that Americans have absolutely no legitimity to say "hey, we're morally superior". As to Australians...I don't know. I'm sure you can dig some dirt on your own, there always is (which is my point, really). Maybe look at oil conflicts in the north (Spratleys, Indonesia)... No country has yet proven moral superiority
Acts, not words.
All this lengthy rambling is well and good but again, did I say "Americans and Australians are morally superior"? I am highlighting the issues in Asia and am trying to make the case, however repulsive to some, of the important role developed countries have in ~preventing~ the developing country from annihilating whatever quality of human life we have left in the world.
As for Europe, non-Mulsim Asians are very well aware of entire neighbourhoods surrounded to Muslim enclaves, and we see that in several Asian countries as well which were once multi-religion and multi-ethnic.
I know this is destined for PoliticalOutsider but since questions have been directed at me I will respond accordingly.
I am a Malaysian citizen ...etc.
I beg to differ, and many Malaysian citizens have struggled for decades to right many issues with "our" country. ... etc.
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Mr Sunilraman, let me get this straight. We are supposed to accept someone’s username, place of posting, and anything else s/he purports about self as fact and legitimate as a notarised birth certificate? One can claim anything on the internet that s/he thinks is to one’s advantage. On a Piers Morgan’s CNN forum on the Trayvon Martin case every (or almost every) posting African-American claims to support Morgan in the dispute with Touré. Well, I wrote in on that one and claimed to be Plutonian, an immigrant from the Planet Pluto and that claim has about as much authority as the ones from the others.
A little history you ignore as you walk through life feeling imposed upon (I am sure you are fully aware) is that Malaysia is the perfect example of a country who’s nation was changed in the most inscrutable way by people who would have fought to the death if another ethnic culture tried to do the same to their nation, people and culture. The Bumiputra population, (Malay and Dyak and other indigenous populations), the original peoples of Malaysia now barely make up half the population of the country. You are fully aware that there were Chinese and Indians and Spanish among other nationals in Malaysia before the British overtook the region as a colony. You also know that for the most part, traders over the millennium came and went but some chose to remain in the region, married into and became part of the greater culture.
But when the British came they overwhelmed the original populations with vast numbers of migrant workers for the labour fields in all sectors of the society. Sarawak and Sabah and some regions of the Malay peninsula were special cases where the Islamic culture had not completely supplanted historic cultures and Animism remained as the ruling culture. The Abrahamic religions did not get a toe hold in the Sarawak region until Brooke came along and brought his era’s form of “civilisation” to the warring tribes. In the least he saved some of the gentler or weaker tribes from the famous Dyak headhunters of the time.
The fact remains that there is a difference between a nation like Australia, Canada and other European cultural nations accepting and even blessing multiculturalism. But what happened in Malaysia by the British was rape, pure and simple. The Malays and other Bumiputra populations did not have a chance against the superior market skills of the British, the Chinese and the Indian cultures anymore than did the indigenous peoples have against the previous onslaught of Islam. The introductions of the Chinese and Indians in the numbers the British supervised was as subversive as the British and American introduction of non-resident Jews into Palestine in more recent times. Many of the Chinese and Indians have been as methodical as the new Israelis in refusing to respect the history and nature of the original inhabitance just as the invading Europeans were and are negligent to the native populations in the Americas and Australia.
India fought and rightfully won its war in independence*. In the history of the rise of civilisation it has been only the past two or three centuries that Europe/America have had the largest and most productive economies in the world. China and India* have had the largest and most productive economies for the greatest part of the past three millennia and both are on the rise and will re-establish their place in the economic scheme of the world, possibly in both our lifetimes.
You obviously have the experience and knowledge to do an honest, honourable job at explaining and, more importantly, understanding the things you raise on this site but you have a mind closed to the ramifications of the complex history that lies outside your own interests and the naturally self-centred biases we all have of our historical culture. This bias is ignorantly (as in being unaware of - not in the pejorative sense) selfish and in total denial of the true and real interconnectivity of our species, a point of view we must all work to overcome.
I don’t have all the answers and understanding and neither do you, sir, but we all can strive to expand our truer understanding and work to let go our ignorances and faulty understandings. The old American saying, “My Country (Ideas) Right or Wrong”, deserves its place on the bonfire of history.
* The Chinese may have been the first to make wrought iron in the 6th C BCE and when the British first came to India, India was the largest producer of Iron in the world.
* India won its war through persistent non-violence and negotiation rather than through war, lessons that have been sadly lost to the powerful rulers of Britain, America and Israel.