Apple, Amazon, Google accused of avoiding taxes in the UK

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Comments

  • blitz1blitz1 Posts: 406member
    Well, I'm from Belgium, the only country receiving kudos on EU-level for taming it's deficit (whereas UK deficit 2011 is 12% if I recall correctly)



    But again, I don't know why that would matter to you as you seem to be fine doing business in a country where even managing fountains seems to be problematic.



    Also, before you consider 'the rest of Europe', well we ARE doing MUCH better than your shithole does. Not convinced? Check out the EUR/GBP exchange rate over the last decade. You'd be surprised!
  • anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 17,431member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blitz1 View Post


    Again, read the analogy between what you've written down and the situation of the kapo and the slave labour in a concentration camp.



    Then think about what you've written. Your kind of reasoning actually makes people comfortable with the thought of child labour.



    You come through as though you are not capable of processing a sentence written in the English language. While at it, you sound like you're a bit of a drama queen too. Chill.
  • MarvinMarvin Posts: 13,806moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    If the law says that you get a deduction for wearing a blue shirt on Tuesday, then you get the deduction. It is not fraudulent and is not an abuse of the law.



    It is an abuse to purposefully misuse legislation against its intent. If Apple, Amazon or Google operate a business in the UK then it's an abuse of the law to base their operations in areas with lower taxation while operating and profiting in areas of higher taxation. Those lower tax rates are not intended for tax evasion but for the businesses which operate in those areas.
  • blitz1blitz1 Posts: 406member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    It is an abuse to purposefully misuse legislation against its intent. If Apple, Amazon or Google operate a business in the UK then it's an abuse of the law to base their operations in areas with lower taxation while operating and profiting in areas of higher taxation. Those lower tax rates are not intended for tax evasion but for the businesses which operate in those areas.



    Marvin, you're 100% right about that.



    That's why I suggested to add to a law it's intent, how it should be interpreted. The thing is, all these big corporations try to use and abuse every loophole in the law to try and create a tax break or any other advantage such as subsidies.



    Such a comment on the law would enable any judge to interpret the law as it was meant to be iso as how it has been bent.
  • blitz1blitz1 Posts: 406member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    You come through as though you are not capable of processing a sentence written in the English language. While at it, you sound like you're a bit of a drama queen too. Chill.



    First, let me reassure you: I'm perfectly capable of processing any sentence written or spoken in English.



    I'm not sure why I'd chill on that specific issue.



    Are you comfortable with child labour? With slave labour? With 2,5 USD a day pay checks (because it's better than having a 2 USD a day check)?
  • anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 17,431member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blitz1 View Post


    Are you comfortable with child labour? With slave labour? With 2,5 USD a day pay checks (because it's better than having a 2 USD a day check)?



    Do you understand that notion of "willing"?
  • anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 17,431member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blitz1 View Post


    That's why I suggested to add to a law it's intent, how it should be interpreted.



    How naive. If this could be done, it would be. In the meantime, companies are supposed to divine "intent"?



    Get serious.
  • jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    It is an abuse to purposefully misuse legislation against its intent. If Apple, Amazon or Google operate a business in the UK then it's an abuse of the law to base their operations in areas with lower taxation while operating and profiting in areas of higher taxation. Those lower tax rates are not intended for tax evasion but for the businesses which operate in those areas.



    How is a company supposed to determine a law's intent if it's not written into the law?
  • jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,339member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post


    What we lack is a government willing to crack down on tax avoidance by big corporations and wealthy individuals. Frankly I don't care if they all piss off where they came from, they don't contribute much to our country anyway if they're avoiding tax.



    How is it Tax avoidance if they are working with EU law? There are a number of companies that operate in exactly the same way by running their European operations out of Ireland, and they have been doing it for years.



    How about we try the reverse, a few years back there was a news article that Sky TV in Ireland doesn't pay any taxes in Ireland as their operation there is run from the UK, does the UK authorities have issues with instances like this?
  • blitz1blitz1 Posts: 406member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    How naive. If this could be done, it would be. In the meantime, companies are supposed to divine "intent"?



    Get serious.



    I think it's me who should get back to you for not understanding English.



    Or isn't it clear when I wrote than that the intent of a law should be written as an extra to the law. It'd definitely cut back the loopholes.



    So no, the don't have to divine (I suppose you meant "guess") the intent of a law. They should just read it. It'd probably also help tax rulings and/or judges in making a verdict.
  • cgjcgj Posts: 276member
    I'm not necessarily disappointed with Apple, I just wish they'd pay some more tax. I think the government do need to do more in this sense, because multi-billion dollar/pound companies 'avoiding' tax is just... Wrong.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post


    You don't have a bloody clue what you are talking about. Michigan is a shithole. You can't compare the UK to a US state. The UK economy is doing better than the US economy thank you. We don't have a trillion dollar debt. We don't have 50 million people without healthcare. It's very easy to do business here, you don't have as much red tape as other parts of Europe. We have no need to be grateful. Companies do business here because they make a lot of money.



    Uh...



    Yeah we kinda do Not as high as US debt, but still over a trillion pounds.



    http://www.debtbombshell.com/



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mightymike View Post


    The UK is smaller than Michigan and its economy sucks. They should be glad that any company does business there. If the UK starts hitting on all these international companies to prop up their failing economy everyone will just relocate. The VAT (sales tax) in the UK is 20% and everything cost 2-3x the price in the states. How can the UK government even hope to survive if they make life impossible for companies to do business there.



    You're full of more shit than the Daily Mail.
  • shaun, ukshaun, uk Posts: 1,050member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blitz1 View Post


    Well, I'm from Belgium, the only country receiving kudos on EU-level for taming it's deficit (whereas UK deficit 2011 is 12% if I recall correctly)



    But again, I don't know why that would matter to you as you seem to be fine doing business in a country where even managing fountains seems to be problematic.



    Also, before you consider 'the rest of Europe', well we ARE doing MUCH better than your shithole does. Not convinced? Check out the EUR/GBP exchange rate over the last decade. You'd be surprised!



    Glad to see the Eurozone is doing so well. I thought you were all heading for bankruptcy.



    As for the exchange rate, the UK has effectively devalued sterling by over 25% in the past few years in order to stimulate our manufacturing base through export led growth. This level of flexibility is why we rejected the Euro.



    I've no idea what you are talking about re fountains. Your national monument is a tiny bronze statue of a child pissing in the street. Last time I visited it took me ages to find it then like everyone else I wondered why I'd bothered.



    Seems to me that most anti-British Europeans like you are angry because we don?t want to play in your little club. I have no anti-Belgium sentiment or hatred towards anyone, although given the opportunity I would happily vote to leave the EU. I think the UK should increasingly look outside the EU for our business opportunities.



    Not sure what any of this has to do with the topic at hand.
  • euphoniouseuphonious Posts: 303member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mightymike View Post


    The UK is smaller than Michigan and its economy sucks. They should be glad that any company does business there. If the UK starts hitting on all these international companies to prop up their failing economy everyone will just relocate.



    Failing economy?



    UK unemployment rate: 8.3%

    US unemployment rate: 8.3%



    UK national debt as percentage of GDP: 64

    US national debt as percentage of GDP: 100+



    Kill the arrogance and look up some facts before you continue to propound your Americentric view of the universe, please. The UK isn't in good shape, but the States is hardly a beacon of financial strength right now either.
  • mightymikemightymike Posts: 49member
    Giving a bankrupt government more money is like giving drunk more liquor it just makes things worse. The only thing proping the economy up are the few businesses left that make money. When business goes under because failing governments squeeze the life out of them it's the end for all of us. Remember that when your unemployment runs out and you wish Apple and all the other corps weren't forced out of the UK.
  • blitz1blitz1 Posts: 406member
    The UK has not devalued the GBP. It was effectively devalued by the market. Guess why? Because you're doing so well.



    Considering the UK wanting to leavethe little club, I think the little club gave the UK a nice F... Y.. late last year when starti g ESFS. Don't try and switch the table... you can't. The UK is well behind in that game. Just like you are if you don't know that your fountains will be closed. Trafalgar square won't be the same in the summer.



    And, o yes, our national monument isn't Mannenen Pis but the Atomium, 90m (metric system) tall. You can't miss it.
  • blitz1blitz1 Posts: 406member
    Uk debt including bank relief is 142% of GDP

    And let's not forget the massive 11% deficit.



    Yes, the UK is failing.

    And the City will drop like a ripe fruit in our basket.
  • MarvinMarvin Posts: 13,806moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    How is a company supposed to determine a law's intent if it's not written into the law?



    Let me summarise the general defence of Apple here:



    - Apple employees aren't smart enough to figure out the tax code in countries with higher taxation but have no problem in countries with lower taxation

    - Many other companies and millionaires are doing the same thing so it's ok

    - Apple employees aren't smart enough to figure out what the law means (it's too vague)



    This is a company that submits 1-million pages of documentation in a lawsuit against Samsung for copying their product design. This is a company that goes out of its way to scrutinise over every detail in every product and can co-ordinate a multi-million unit worldwide shipment in a weekend. This is a company whose previous CEO's last words of advice to the current CEO were:



    "Never ask what I would do, just do what's right."



    Apple's employees are smart just as the employees of Google and Amazon are. They are very highly paid and there are many employees, it's not just one intern called Doris in accounting out of her depth. Naivety is not a defence for a multi-billion dollar company that has been trading for many years.



    I fully accept that the law should be revised to prevent such abuses from taking place but you can't suggest that these actions are not abuses simply because the law isn't sufficient enough to prevent them.



    If the vast proportion of your sales have shipping addresses to an area where taxation is far higher than you are paying then you don't have to be a genius to figure out you are abusing the system. How many sales do you think Amazon makes in the Channel Islands vs mainland UK? The goods are shipped from Jersey to avoid paying extra tax, not because it just happens to be a picturesque location for a business.



    As to the solution, perhaps the law could apply the tax rate per-sale based on the shipping address rather than the point of sale. This way, no matter if you buy something from America, China, Jersey etc. the company is taxed based on the recipient, not their chosen tax-haven. It would be hard to put into effect worldwide but as long as it was applied to geographically close locations, it would at least be a disincentive to abuse the law.
  • hexxhexx Posts: 40member
    no matter who it is, just tax the fuck out of them!!!



    we all pay our taxes, everybody should





    P.S.: I'm with Shaun on this one
  • cgjcgj Posts: 276member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mightymike View Post


    Giving a bankrupt government more money is like giving drunk more liquor it just makes things worse. The only thing proping the economy up are the few businesses left that make money. When business goes under because failing governments squeeze the life out of them it's the end for all of us. Remember that when your unemployment runs out and you wish Apple and all the other corps weren't forced out of the UK.



    But the government isn't bankrupt. So maybe you should climb back into your hole and go back to watching American Revolution history tapes.
  • mightymikemightymike Posts: 49member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CGJ View Post


    But the government isn't bankrupt. So maybe you should climb back into your hole and go back to watching American Revolution history tapes.



    The only hole here is the one in your hollow head! The USA owes 16 TRILLION dollars. The USA spends 2 trillion more than it takes in EACH YEAR and borrows this amount EACH YEAR to stay afloat-that's BANKRUPTCY !



    Here's a simple analogy just for you. GM went broke and needed 80 billion from the Feds to stay afloat. The USA is broke and needs 800 billion each year from the Chinese in T-bill sales to stay afloat. That's BANKRUPTCY, just like GM.



    The USAs credit rating was downgraded this year and the Chinese won't lend the USA any more money next year.



    When that happens your unemployment check will be worth zip! That's BANKRUPTCY !*
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