It's fine that Apple-only assembly workers have more protections but I don't believe they should be getting paid much higher than the prevailing wages. There are thousands of people in China available to replace any workers who leave. Literally thousands. And wage rates and labor conditions are dependent on local factors and local laws and should not be viewed through the tint of Western prejudices.
Um, sure. One might even argue that the wealthy businesspeople of America might have their own "prejudices" based on their own lifestyle needs compared to those of their much poorer American workers, and therefore should pay those workers LESS, because they are underestimating poorer people's ability to get by on much less money than a wealthy person knows how to live on!
American workers are some of the best paid in the world. Why else do you think labor-intensive work left the US? Economics.
It's fine that Apple-only assembly workers have more protections but I don't believe they should be getting paid much higher than the prevailing wages. There are thousands of people in China available to replace any workers who leave. Literally thousands. And wage rates and labor conditions are dependent on local factors and local laws and should not be viewed through the tint of Western prejudices.
The actual Western (capitalist) prejudice is that in order to maximize corporate profits, workers wages should be as low as possible and determined on a supply and demand basis rather than what it takes for someone to have a living wage and decent life. There is no moral case one can make that workers wages should be kept low simply because there are plenty of workers to take their place, either in China, in the U.S. or anywhere else. This attitude in the U.S. is what has caused workers to fall out of the middle class and partially responsible for the tremendous resentment and disillusionment many people have today in addition to today's adults being the first generation to have less opportunity than their parents. On the other hand, over the last 20 years, China has brought millions into the middle class.
The only problem in paying more than the prevailing wage is inflation. If a large number of workers in a particular geographic region earn more, housing, fuel, food and other costs might rise accordingly and the workers would be no better off and possibly worse off. To some extent, we've seen this in places like San Francisco, Palo Alto, Cupertino and environs, where housing prices have become completely absurd (as well as cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, etc.)
This "living wage" meme is progressive/Marxist nonsense. Wages should be whatever the market determines. Arbitrary wage limits, both lower and upper, are economically unsound. There should be no interference by the Federal government in the determination of wages. All wages should be subject to negotiation, whether that is individually or as part of union contracts.
It's fine that Apple-only assembly workers have more protections but I don't believe they should be getting paid much higher than the prevailing wages. There are thousands of people in China available to replace any workers who leave. Literally thousands. And wage rates and labor conditions are dependent on local factors and local laws and should not be viewed through the tint of Western prejudices.
The actual Western (capitalist) prejudice is that in order to maximize corporate profits, workers wages should be as low as possible and determined on a supply and demand basis rather than what it takes for someone to have a living wage and decent life. There is no moral case one can make that workers wages should be kept low simply because there are plenty of workers to take their place, either in China, in the U.S. or anywhere else. This attitude in the U.S. is what has caused workers to fall out of the middle class and partially responsible for the tremendous resentment and disillusionment many people have today in addition to today's adults being the first generation to have less opportunity than their parents. On the other hand, over the last 20 years, China has brought millions into the middle class.
The only problem in paying more than the prevailing wage is inflation. If a large number of workers in a particular geographic region earn more, housing, fuel, food and other costs might rise accordingly and the workers would be no better off and possibly worse off. To some extent, we've seen this in places like San Francisco, Palo Alto, Cupertino and environs, where housing prices have become completely absurd (as well as cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, etc.)
This "living wage" meme is progressive/Marxist nonsense. Wages should be whatever the market determines. Arbitrary wage limits, both lower and upper, are economically unsound.
It’s the old Soviet Union political joke, “We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us.”
It's fine that Apple-only assembly workers have more protections but I don't believe they should be getting paid much higher than the prevailing wages. There are thousands of people in China available to replace any workers who leave. Literally thousands. And wage rates and labor conditions are dependent on local factors and local laws and should not be viewed through the tint of Western prejudices.
The actual Western (capitalist) prejudice is that in order to maximize corporate profits, workers wages should be as low as possible and determined on a supply and demand basis rather than what it takes for someone to have a living wage and decent life. There is no moral case one can make that workers wages should be kept low simply because there are plenty of workers to take their place, either in China, in the U.S. or anywhere else. This attitude in the U.S. is what has caused workers to fall out of the middle class and partially responsible for the tremendous resentment and disillusionment many people have today in addition to today's adults being the first generation to have less opportunity than their parents. On the other hand, over the last 20 years, China has brought millions into the middle class.
The only problem in paying more than the prevailing wage is inflation. If a large number of workers in a particular geographic region earn more, housing, fuel, food and other costs might rise accordingly and the workers would be no better off and possibly worse off. To some extent, we've seen this in places like San Francisco, Palo Alto, Cupertino and environs, where housing prices have become completely absurd (as well as cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, etc.)
This "living wage" meme is progressive/Marxist nonsense. Wages should be whatever the market determines. Arbitrary wage limits, both lower and upper, are economically unsound. There should be no interference by the Federal government in the determination of wages. All wages should be subject to negotiation, whether that is individually or as part of union contracts.
It's not going to feel like nonsense when robots take most of the jobs and the market regards vast numbers of people to be "not economically viable" as a rampaging Michael Douglas said in Falling Down.
It's fine that Apple-only assembly workers have more protections but I don't believe they should be getting paid much higher than the prevailing wages. There are thousands of people in China available to replace any workers who leave. Literally thousands. And wage rates and labor conditions are dependent on local factors and local laws and should not be viewed through the tint of Western prejudices.
The actual Western (capitalist) prejudice is that in order to maximize corporate profits, workers wages should be as low as possible and determined on a supply and demand basis rather than what it takes for someone to have a living wage and decent life. There is no moral case one can make that workers wages should be kept low simply because there are plenty of workers to take their place, either in China, in the U.S. or anywhere else. This attitude in the U.S. is what has caused workers to fall out of the middle class and partially responsible for the tremendous resentment and disillusionment many people have today in addition to today's adults being the first generation to have less opportunity than their parents. On the other hand, over the last 20 years, China has brought millions into the middle class.
The only problem in paying more than the prevailing wage is inflation. If a large number of workers in a particular geographic region earn more, housing, fuel, food and other costs might rise accordingly and the workers would be no better off and possibly worse off. To some extent, we've seen this in places like San Francisco, Palo Alto, Cupertino and environs, where housing prices have become completely absurd (as well as cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, etc.)
This "living wage" meme is progressive/Marxist nonsense. Wages should be whatever the market determines. Arbitrary wage limits, both lower and upper, are economically unsound. There should be no interference by the Federal government in the determination of wages. All wages should be subject to negotiation, whether that is individually or as part of union contracts.
It's not going to feel like nonsense when robots take most of the jobs and the market regards vast numbers of people to be "not economically viable" as a rampaging Michael Douglas said in Falling Down.
That's why you should invest in those companies best suited to use such technologies in the future.
You are living in an age where China is experiencing its Industrial Age. We went thru it and it took a long time for us to have safe working conditions and fair compensation compared to then. With the culture in China it might take much, much longer for them to evolve and it might end up costing us more to pay for products made there.
Yes our industrial culture is now referred to as a "safety culture" and developing nations have not yet reached the same level. Part of the reason safety culture developed in the first place is the value western cultures place on human life. That is also a fairly recent development and it is a requirement for the creation of a safety culture - can't really have one without the other.
"a hiring spree at china colleges"?? aren't they going to college to get a better job? assembly line jobs don't really require any qualifications surely?
I assume for work to pay for college? This would seem to make more sense.
One of the main reasons companies like Apple are so dependent on Chinese labor is because of the large number of available workers with on-the-job and trade school acquired skills. Many of these essential skills and training do not require a college degree but instead are very specific skills focused and backed by intensive training in areas most needed to manufacture high volume technology products. The US is sadly very far behind China (and Germany) in the skilled trades aspects of modern manufacturing. This creates a vacuum that isn't being filled by over-educated and under-skilled college graduates who just want to be managers and untrained high school grads who are no longer walking straight into mundane factory and coal mining jobs of the last generation. To fill the skills gap US manufactures are compelled to resort to even higher levels of automation including robotics, or go offshore where the required skills mix is available in great volume. Alas, the robots will eventually catch up to the offshore manufacturers but it's likely their next wave of non-degreed skilled workers will be trained to work cooperatively alongside next generation robots. The US education system is simply not serving the needs of US manufacturers and the for-profit college system is one of the root causes of this failure. The NFL and NBA are getting a free ride farm system and US manufacturers are getting way too familiar with import laws and regulations.
It's fine that Apple-only assembly workers have more protections but I don't believe they should be getting paid much higher than the prevailing wages. There are thousands of people in China available to replace any workers who leave. Literally thousands. And wage rates and labor conditions are dependent on local factors and local laws and should not be viewed through the tint of Western prejudices.
The actual Western (capitalist) prejudice is that in order to maximize corporate profits, workers wages should be as low as possible and determined on a supply and demand basis rather than what it takes for someone to have a living wage and decent life. There is no moral case one can make that workers wages should be kept low simply because there are plenty of workers to take their place, either in China, in the U.S. or anywhere else. This attitude in the U.S. is what has caused workers to fall out of the middle class and partially responsible for the tremendous resentment and disillusionment many people have today in addition to today's adults being the first generation to have less opportunity than their parents. On the other hand, over the last 20 years, China has brought millions into the middle class.
The only problem in paying more than the prevailing wage is inflation. If a large number of workers in a particular geographic region earn more, housing, fuel, food and other costs might rise accordingly and the workers would be no better off and possibly worse off. To some extent, we've seen this in places like San Francisco, Palo Alto, Cupertino and environs, where housing prices have become completely absurd (as well as cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, etc.)
This "living wage" meme is progressive/Marxist nonsense. Wages should be whatever the market determines. Arbitrary wage limits, both lower and upper, are economically unsound. There should be no interference by the Federal government in the determination of wages. All wages should be subject to negotiation, whether that is individually or as part of union contracts.
Only in the same mythical world where communism works. In the purely libertarian utopia you've described there would be abject poverty due to wages below living requirements, and mass social programs aimed at fixing that. It basically levers the government to subsidize the crappy wages. We call this a form of corporate welfare. No thanks. I sleep easier paying a little more, knowing workers can earn a living wage and not rely on social programs or credit lending.
It's fine that Apple-only assembly workers have more protections but I don't believe they should be getting paid much higher than the prevailing wages. There are thousands of people in China available to replace any workers who leave. Literally thousands. And wage rates and labor conditions are dependent on local factors and local laws and should not be viewed through the tint of Western prejudices.
The actual Western (capitalist) prejudice is that in order to maximize corporate profits, workers wages should be as low as possible and determined on a supply and demand basis rather than what it takes for someone to have a living wage and decent life. There is no moral case one can make that workers wages should be kept low simply because there are plenty of workers to take their place, either in China, in the U.S. or anywhere else. This attitude in the U.S. is what has caused workers to fall out of the middle class and partially responsible for the tremendous resentment and disillusionment many people have today in addition to today's adults being the first generation to have less opportunity than their parents. On the other hand, over the last 20 years, China has brought millions into the middle class.
The only problem in paying more than the prevailing wage is inflation. If a large number of workers in a particular geographic region earn more, housing, fuel, food and other costs might rise accordingly and the workers would be no better off and possibly worse off. To some extent, we've seen this in places like San Francisco, Palo Alto, Cupertino and environs, where housing prices have become completely absurd (as well as cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, etc.)
This "living wage" meme is progressive/Marxist nonsense. Wages should be whatever the market determines. Arbitrary wage limits, both lower and upper, are economically unsound. There should be no interference by the Federal government in the determination of wages. All wages should be subject to negotiation, whether that is individually or as part of union contracts.
It's not going to feel like nonsense when robots take most of the jobs and the market regards vast numbers of people to be "not economically viable" as a rampaging Michael Douglas said in Falling Down.
That's why you should invest in those companies best suited to use such technologies in the future.
Then we should also hand out birth control pills like candy to teens, so we don't grow a population too large for its earning ability.
Then we should also hand out birth control pills like candy to teens, so we don't grow a population too large for its earning ability.
True that. Did you know that the optimum population size for the United States is only around 150 million? That population is the most economically stable and sustainable with our existing natural resources. We need some negative population growth.
You are living in an age where China is experiencing its Industrial Age. We went thru it and it took a long time for us to have safe working conditions and fair compensation compared to then. With the culture in China it might take much, much longer for them to evolve and it might end up costing us more to pay for products made there.
Yes our industrial culture is now referred to as a "safety culture" and developing nations have not yet reached the same level. Part of the reason safety culture developed in the first place is the value western cultures place on human life. That is also a fairly recent development and it is a requirement for the creation of a safety culture - can't really have one without the other.
I guarantee if our economy collapsed and the US returned to real 1930s-style Depression levels (not just the mild downturn of the so-called Great Recession), safety measures and "worker's rights" would go right out the window.
Wait, but I thought that Apple invented slave labor, that they have "child labor camps" in China, that if I buy an Apple product I'm actively supporting slavery, that Apple can single-handed change global manufacturing dynamics if it wishes to, and that the best thing would be if Apple were to close down all manufacturing and leave these workers jobless, at which point they will obviously go purchase a villa and live in luxury, instead of starving to death.
The despicable ignorance and lies and discussing Apple's manufacturing disgusts me. The most pathetic part is that is often comes from Android fanatics who have no problem using products created under much, much worse conditions. The worst kind of hypocrisy, the kind that pretends to be altruism.
To be fair, the conditions for workers were awful before with any manufacturer who used Foxconn. When the issues were brought to Apple's attention, at first they didn't believe it. It sounded like something made up. It was only after a local man took pictures and videos and gave them to Apple, then they did something. This was after Foxconn had lied about workers conditions, and what happens to all those caustic dangerous chemicals when they need to be disposed of. Apple was very upset when they saw that and fired a lot of employees and contractors and created their own investigative team. They have bumped heads with Foxconn and the government about workers conditions and compensation.
The problem is other companies who use Foxconn do not care. Dell, HP, Microsoft, Sony, Toshiba, etc all know the same thing but are staying quiet. Why? Because they don't want to pay more to have their products made. They would rather have conditions remain the same.
You are living in an age where China is experiencing its Industrial Age. We went thru it and it took a long time for us to have safe working conditions and fair compensation compared to then. With the culture in China it might take much, much longer for them to evolve and it might end up costing us more to pay for products made there.
Even the worse of conditions on the worse lines at Foxconn are better than the conditions your toaster, coat or whatever was made abroad you are using currently, were made in.
That's something people conveniently forget. There are way way way worse conditions of labor for 50%+ of things in most people's house, especially those so called social activists, and people don't really give a crap.
They use Apple because its a convenient well known target that makes their sanctimonious rants easier to sell. They're as much hipocrits as all the rest of us.
And even there, for people in rural China, maybe the horrible conditions on these lines are not so bad compared to what they have to endure at home. So, who are we helping really if we condescendingly treat them like children and send them back to those farms saying we know what's best for them : us or them?
Most of the anti-globalization rhetoric is just xenophobia coated with a thin veneer of good conscience. That's a rhetoric that mostly started on the left and now that most sides exploit shamelessly (especially the orange turd)
You are living in an age where China is experiencing its Industrial Age. We went thru it and it took a long time for us to have safe working conditions and fair compensation compared to then. With the culture in China it might take much, much longer for them to evolve and it might end up costing us more to pay for products made there.
Yes our industrial culture is now referred to as a "safety culture" and developing nations have not yet reached the same level. Part of the reason safety culture developed in the first place is the value western cultures place on human life. That is also a fairly recent development and it is a requirement for the creation of a safety culture - can't really have one without the other.
I guarantee if our economy collapsed and the US returned to real 1930s-style Depression levels (not just the mild downturn of the so-called Great Recession), safety measures and "worker's rights" would go right out the window.
Well sure, but what is your point? That we shouldn't have them?
You are living in an age where China is experiencing its Industrial Age. We went thru it and it took a long time for us to have safe working conditions and fair compensation compared to then. With the culture in China it might take much, much longer for them to evolve and it might end up costing us more to pay for products made there.
Yes our industrial culture is now referred to as a "safety culture" and developing nations have not yet reached the same level. Part of the reason safety culture developed in the first place is the value western cultures place on human life. That is also a fairly recent development and it is a requirement for the creation of a safety culture - can't really have one without the other.
I guarantee if our economy collapsed and the US returned to real 1930s-style Depression levels (not just the mild downturn of the so-called Great Recession), safety measures and "worker's rights" would go right out the window.
Well sure, but what is your point? That we shouldn't have them?
"Worker's rights" are yet another phony "right" made up by Progressives. The actual protected rights we have as Americans are spelled out in the Constitution. Everything else is left to the People and the States. If the people of Wisconsin agreed that they'd like to have a state minimum wage of $50/hour to attract people to their state, they could do so. More likely, businesses would flee that state (as has been happening in California for years and the pace has accelerated since the $15/hr. min. wage is soon to be standard).
You are living in an age where China is experiencing its Industrial Age. We went thru it and it took a long time for us to have safe working conditions and fair compensation compared to then. With the culture in China it might take much, much longer for them to evolve and it might end up costing us more to pay for products made there.
Yes our industrial culture is now referred to as a "safety culture" and developing nations have not yet reached the same level. Part of the reason safety culture developed in the first place is the value western cultures place on human life. That is also a fairly recent development and it is a requirement for the creation of a safety culture - can't really have one without the other.
I guarantee if our economy collapsed and the US returned to real 1930s-style Depression levels (not just the mild downturn of the so-called Great Recession), safety measures and "worker's rights" would go right out the window.
Well sure, but what is your point? That we shouldn't have them?
"Worker's rights" are yet another phony "right" made up by Progressives. The actual protected rights we have as Americans are spelled out in the Constitution. Everything else is left to the People and the States. If the people of Wisconsin agreed that they'd like to have a state minimum wage of $50/hour to attract people to their state, they could do so. More likely, businesses would flee that state (as has been happening in California for years and the pace has accelerated since the $15/hr. min. wage is soon to be standard).
So you are saying you don't think we should have safety in the workplace I guess. I never mentioned any rights, just that safety practices developed in advanced cultures because people don't like getting hurt. Having witnessed several industrial accidents I will disagree with your position.
But I thought Apples manufacturing plant was run by a bunch of child slaves!!! Support an iKnockoff that treats it's workers right!!!!!(same plant less benefits)
Fun fact: Apple doesn't have a manufacturing plant.
Comments
Oh right, it doesn't paint Apple in a bad light, so it is in fact not news...
We need some negative population growth.
That's something people conveniently forget. There are way way way worse conditions of labor for 50%+ of things in most people's house, especially those so called social activists, and people don't really give a crap.
They use Apple because its a convenient well known target that makes their sanctimonious rants easier to sell. They're as much hipocrits as all the rest of us.
And even there, for people in rural China, maybe the horrible conditions on these lines are not so bad compared to what they have to endure at home.
So, who are we helping really if we condescendingly treat them like children and send them back to those farms saying we know what's best for them : us or them?
Most of the anti-globalization rhetoric is just xenophobia coated with a thin veneer of good conscience.
That's a rhetoric that mostly started on the left and now that most sides exploit shamelessly (especially the orange turd)
Fun fact: Apple doesn't have a manufacturing plant.