Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
You don't know the business Apple is in. You don't know Apple's history. In fact I think you use a Windows PC. If so you have no right to blame Apple.
I am a huge Apple fan ever since I first saw a Mac Plus in high school in the late 80's. I've read every book on Apple and Steve Jobs that has ever been published starting with the great book "The Journey is the Reward". I live in Palo Alto and have been by Steve Jobs house many times before his death to maybe catch a glimpse of him and even tried to go there the day he died (the roads were blocked off). I loved Apple so much I bought stock in the company in high school and despite being advised otherwise held onto it throughout the rough 90's and have profited nicely from it. I bought more after the iPhone was announced and profited nicely from that too. I have never sold a share as I truly believe in what Apple does. My beef is not specifically with Apple but with the general outsourcing of our economy to cheaper nations just to save a buck and make Wall Street happy while at the same time destroying our way of life. This has been going on for 20-30 years; both democrats and republicans are to blame.
And, I buy exclusively Apple products (iMac, iPhone, iPad, etc) as they are the best for many reasons. I do use Windows at work but that is not by choice.
If so, why can't you understand the cut throat business Apple is in?
I fully understand the cut throat business Apple is in. But if India can say if you want to sell iPhones here you must make them here, why can't the US demand that as well? Apple wasted no time in building manufacturing capacity in India so they can sell them there. When India or China say jump, Cooks asks how high.
And, that's like saying, 200 years ago, the cotton industry is a cut throat business, we need slaves to say competitive. It doesn't make it right.
You sound like the man I talked to at Stanford Shopping Center Apple Store three years ago. Let me teach you a little bit business sense. The assembly of iPhone is the cheapest part of production. The amount of economic value the assembly generates is very small. Look at the iPhone parts cost analysis. You will know what I mean. The bigger money is making the A10 chip which costs tens of dollars a piece. So why you advocate Apple bring the manufacturing of A10 to US? Further since assembly is cheap it does not add too much economic value to US.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
You don't know the business Apple is in. You don't know Apple's history. In fact I think you use a Windows PC. If so you have no right to blame Apple.
I am a huge Apple fan ever since I first saw a Mac Plus in high school in the late 80's. I've read every book on Apple and Steve Jobs that has ever been published starting with the great book "The Journey is the Reward". I live in Palo Alto and have been by Steve Jobs house many times before his death to maybe catch a glimpse of him and even tried to go there the day he died (the roads were blocked off). I loved Apple so much I bought stock in the company in high school and despite being advised otherwise held onto it throughout the rough 90's and have profited nicely from it. I bought more after the iPhone was announced and profited nicely from that too. I have never sold a share as I truly believe in what Apple does. My beef is not specifically with Apple but with the general outsourcing of our economy to cheaper nations just to save a buck and make Wall Street happy while at the same time destroying our way of life. This has been going on for 20-30 years; both democrats and republicans are to blame.
And, I buy exclusively Apple products (iMac, iPhone, iPad, etc) as they are the best for many reasons. I do use Windows at work but that is not by choice.
If so, why can't you understand the cut throat business Apple is in?
I fully understand the cut throat business Apple is in. But if India can say if you want to sell iPhones here you must make them here, why can't the US demand that as well? Apple wasted no time in building manufacturing capacity in India so they can sell them there. When India or China say jump, Cooks asks how high.
And, that's like saying, 200 years ago, the cotton industry is a cut throat business, we need slaves to say competitive. It doesn't make it right.
You sound like the man I talked to at Stanford Shopping Center Apple Store three years ago. Let me teach you a little bit business sense. The assembly of iPhone is the cheapest part of production. The amount of economic value the assembly generates is very small. Look at the iPhone parts cost analysis. You will know what I mean. The bigger money is making the A10 chip which costs tens of dollars a piece. So why you advocate Apple bring the manufacturing of A10 to US? Further since assembly is cheap it does not add too much economic value to US.
Don't shop there, too crowded (and expensive) for me.
Ok, I give up. Let's outsource all of our jobs to China and become a 3rd world country. Then, maybe one day, China will become so prosperous they will outsource the jobs back to us. Sounds like a plan.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
You don't know the business Apple is in. You don't know Apple's history. In fact I think you use a Windows PC. If so you have no right to blame Apple.
I am a huge Apple fan ever since I first saw a Mac Plus in high school in the late 80's. I've read every book on Apple and Steve Jobs that has ever been published starting with the great book "The Journey is the Reward". I live in Palo Alto and have been by Steve Jobs house many times before his death to maybe catch a glimpse of him and even tried to go there the day he died (the roads were blocked off). I loved Apple so much I bought stock in the company in high school and despite being advised otherwise held onto it throughout the rough 90's and have profited nicely from it. I bought more after the iPhone was announced and profited nicely from that too. I have never sold a share as I truly believe in what Apple does. My beef is not specifically with Apple but with the general outsourcing of our economy to cheaper nations just to save a buck and make Wall Street happy while at the same time destroying our way of life. This has been going on for 20-30 years; both democrats and republicans are to blame.
And, I buy exclusively Apple products (iMac, iPhone, iPad, etc) as they are the best for many reasons. I do use Windows at work but that is not by choice.
Fair enough. But you should know then what Jobs said specifically to those points -- "These jobs aren't coming back." This was to Obama, I believe.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Why is it shameful? The parts are manufactured and sourced in China, why wouldn't the simplest thing being to assembly them there as well? Especially since most of the iPhone sales arent even in the US?
This is a bit different than forging steel parts for building a car, which can originate domestically relatively easily. But we aren't going to be building a components manufacturing industry any time soon.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Why is it shameful? The parts are manufactured and sourced in China, why wouldn't the simplest thing being to assembly them there as well? Especially since most of the iPhone sales arent even in the US?
This is a bit different than forging steel parts for building a car, which can originate domestically relatively easily. But we aren't going to be building a components manufacturing industry any time soon.
We could build a components manufacturing industry if we wanted, we used to have many chip foundries until they were off shored. And, we hardly make steel anymore either.
I can't view that chart, site needs sign up. Last I heard majority of iphone sales are outside the US.
Regardless, it's still logistically simpler to assemble where the components originate.
Sure, some entrepreneurs in the US could start a domestic components business -- but they haven't. Why? The fact that they haven't means either they're missing out on opportunity for no reason, or they know something you don't know, and the business for it wouldn't or hasn't been profitable.
I'm uninformed on this, but i'd guess that steel is an easier process and product than chip foundries. That it's gone also says something about the economic opportunities for US steel. Personally I agree with you that it's a shame the executive class exported manufacturing. But like Jobs said about chips, that ship has sailed, those jobs likely aren't coming back. Meanwhile, Apple does what makes sense -- buy chips where they're made.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
Yeah, just believe that garbage. GM, and other large companies in the auto industry have problems because when compared to cars made by no USA owned companies, their cars stink. All of those foreign owned car manufacturers who make cars hers, and it's a considerable number, make better cars. It's really that simple. I know a lot of people who will never buy a USA owned car makers cars.
the biggest problem for USA made products is the american consumer. Honestly, how many people here have gone out of their way, over the years, to buy American made products when they cost more than the same thing made overseas? I'll bet, that if honestly thought about, none of you here can say that.
you entirely missed my point. The barracks is where many manufacturing and mining people did live in back then. That's exactly the point. That's how manufacturers got cheap, controlled, labor. That hasn't happened for a long time here. But it's what is happening in developing countries now, and we can't compete with that.
maybe if Carrier, and others, did have that kind of captive labor, they would stay here.
the other thing is that those high paying manufacturing Jobs in the auto industry an steel industry were because of very strong unions. That's gone too with the assault on unions we see happening from conservatives. Most factory jobs in this country have never been high paying Jobs. That's a myth.
Oh, I should add, it's not slave labor. These people take those jobs, because for those countries, pay and benefits are pretty damn good. They can leave when their contract is up, usually a contract is for a year. We have contracts like that here too.
You can believe your garbage and I'll believe mine. MAny of these manufacturing jobs paid $50k+ which is a good amount in middle America ("The average wage at the Rexnord plant is about $25 an hour, Hugunin said." http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/StreetTalk/Rexnord-Indianapolis-job-cuts-industrials/2016/10/17/id/753782/). And, you are proving my point, this is slave labor; the alternative is they don't work at all and have no place to live or eat, of course they are not going to leave. Finally, the unions have been destroyed by corruption and by democrats with the lousy free trade agreements (e.g. look at UCSF layoff off 100's of IT employees so they can hire Indian techs, this was decided by Janet Napolitano, a member of Obama's cabinet). Why do you think most union employees voted for Trump?
Your definition of slave labor is different from everyone else's. The alternative is that they work somewhere else for less, usually back in their home village. The problem the Chinese are having now is that they are running out of labor for their factories as wages and conditions are now much better in the villages. So people aren't coming to work in the factories in the numbers they used to, and people are leaving them.
these free trade agreement, despite your ignorance, and the ignorance the Republicans are forstering on people, have little to do with loss of jobs. We had these visas long before Obama came into office. In fact, Bush increased the numbers quite a lot. Trump is a lier, and that's why they voted for him. Look at what's happening with the Republican health insurance bill. He promised that everyone would get coverage, it would be better than with the Affordable Care Act, and now, they've cut back so much, it's estimated that 14 million people will lose their health insurance in the first 12 months, and at least 10 million more will lose it in the 9 years after. Yet, the people who are going to lose with this bill, which, by the way, wasn't even voted upon today because conserviaives want to cut even more from it, are from the red states that voted for him.
so, please don't talk about what Trump says. I'm a New Yorker, I know all about Trump.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
putting things together is part of manufacturing
Manufacturing is making parts. Assembly is putting these parts together. It's the last stage only. It's not considered to be actual manufacturing. It adds virtually nothing to the value of the product. In the old days when I had my manufacturing company, assembly was a much more complex process. Not these days.
Now you are being silly.
How much does it cost to Manufacture an iPhone? I pretty sure part of the cost included is assembly.
It costs about $400 to manufacture a $650 iPhone, according to estimates. That's not the cost of parts, estimates of which we see all over, but the full cost.
I would like to make the point that just recently, Cook said that Apple sourced at least $50 billion in parts and materials from the USA last year.
its not as though there is no manufacturing of anything for Apple products here. But Apple has no control over where parts are made. They can't force a manufacturer to make something they don't want to. Example is Corning, and I explained this in the thread for an earlier article a week or so ago. Corning makes large sheets of Gorilla glass. They then ship that glass to a company in China which cuts the glass and finishes it for Apple, and others. Why doesn't Corning cut and finish it here? Because they don't want to.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
You don't know the business Apple is in. You don't know Apple's history. In fact I think you use a Windows PC. If so you have no right to blame Apple.
I am a huge Apple fan ever since I first saw a Mac Plus in high school in the late 80's. I've read every book on Apple and Steve Jobs that has ever been published starting with the great book "The Journey is the Reward". I live in Palo Alto and have been by Steve Jobs house many times before his death to maybe catch a glimpse of him and even tried to go there the day he died (the roads were blocked off). I loved Apple so much I bought stock in the company in high school and despite being advised otherwise held onto it throughout the rough 90's and have profited nicely from it. I bought more after the iPhone was announced and profited nicely from that too. I have never sold a share as I truly believe in what Apple does. My beef is not specifically with Apple but with the general outsourcing of our economy to cheaper nations just to save a buck and make Wall Street happy while at the same time destroying our way of life. This has been going on for 20-30 years; both democrats and republicans are to blame.
And, I buy exclusively Apple products (iMac, iPhone, iPad, etc) as they are the best for many reasons. I do use Windows at work but that is not by choice.
If so, why can't you understand the cut throat business Apple is in?
I fully understand the cut throat business Apple is in. But if India can say if you want to sell iPhones here you must make them here, why can't the US demand that as well? Apple wasted no time in building manufacturing capacity in India so they can sell them there. When India or China say jump, Cooks asks how high.
And, that's like saying, 200 years ago, the cotton industry is a cut throat business, we need slaves to say competitive. It doesn't make it right.
You really need to stop using the word "slave". It's disgusting that you don't know what a slave is. These people are not slaves, and nothing you say will make them slaves. It seems to satisfy your own perverted view of things, but it's not true.
and you haven't paid any attention to what's being said here as to why this isn't happening. Ok, live in your own little world.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
You don't know the business Apple is in. You don't know Apple's history. In fact I think you use a Windows PC. If so you have no right to blame Apple.
I am a huge Apple fan ever since I first saw a Mac Plus in high school in the late 80's. I've read every book on Apple and Steve Jobs that has ever been published starting with the great book "The Journey is the Reward". I live in Palo Alto and have been by Steve Jobs house many times before his death to maybe catch a glimpse of him and even tried to go there the day he died (the roads were blocked off). I loved Apple so much I bought stock in the company in high school and despite being advised otherwise held onto it throughout the rough 90's and have profited nicely from it. I bought more after the iPhone was announced and profited nicely from that too. I have never sold a share as I truly believe in what Apple does. My beef is not specifically with Apple but with the general outsourcing of our economy to cheaper nations just to save a buck and make Wall Street happy while at the same time destroying our way of life. This has been going on for 20-30 years; both democrats and republicans are to blame.
And, I buy exclusively Apple products (iMac, iPhone, iPad, etc) as they are the best for many reasons. I do use Windows at work but that is not by choice.
If so, why can't you understand the cut throat business Apple is in?
I fully understand the cut throat business Apple is in. But if India can say if you want to sell iPhones here you must make them here, why can't the US demand that as well? Apple wasted no time in building manufacturing capacity in India so they can sell them there. When India or China say jump, Cooks asks how high.
And, that's like saying, 200 years ago, the cotton industry is a cut throat business, we need slaves to say competitive. It doesn't make it right.
You sound like the man I talked to at Stanford Shopping Center Apple Store three years ago. Let me teach you a little bit business sense. The assembly of iPhone is the cheapest part of production. The amount of economic value the assembly generates is very small. Look at the iPhone parts cost analysis. You will know what I mean. The bigger money is making the A10 chip which costs tens of dollars a piece. So why you advocate Apple bring the manufacturing of A10 to US? Further since assembly is cheap it does not add too much economic value to US.
Don't shop there, too crowded (and expensive) for me.
Ok, I give up. Let's outsource all of our jobs to China and become a 3rd world country. Then, maybe one day, China will become so prosperous they will outsource the jobs back to us. Sounds like a plan.
You just don't get it. Costs in China have skyrocketed in the past few years. Estimates are that wages there will rise an additional 15% this year. Do wages rise like that here?
we have a number of Chinese firms building products here. In fact, though I don't remember the name just now, a large Chinese car manufacturer is building a production plant here, in the USA. They want to sell cars here, AND they want to export them back to China. Why? Costs!
I'll add add some names of large Chinese manufacturers setting up plants in the USA. This is not intended to be a comprehensive list.
Thats just a few. I've been saying for years now, that we would begin seeing this in the late 201xs. It's happening. At some point in time, it won't matter where something is manufacturered, because costs are converging. It's getting much more expensive to manufacturer in places like China.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
You don't know the business Apple is in. You don't know Apple's history. In fact I think you use a Windows PC. If so you have no right to blame Apple.
I am a huge Apple fan ever since I first saw a Mac Plus in high school in the late 80's. I've read every book on Apple and Steve Jobs that has ever been published starting with the great book "The Journey is the Reward". I live in Palo Alto and have been by Steve Jobs house many times before his death to maybe catch a glimpse of him and even tried to go there the day he died (the roads were blocked off). I loved Apple so much I bought stock in the company in high school and despite being advised otherwise held onto it throughout the rough 90's and have profited nicely from it. I bought more after the iPhone was announced and profited nicely from that too. I have never sold a share as I truly believe in what Apple does. My beef is not specifically with Apple but with the general outsourcing of our economy to cheaper nations just to save a buck and make Wall Street happy while at the same time destroying our way of life. This has been going on for 20-30 years; both democrats and republicans are to blame.
And, I buy exclusively Apple products (iMac, iPhone, iPad, etc) as they are the best for many reasons. I do use Windows at work but that is not by choice.
Fair enough. But you should know then what Jobs said specifically to those points -- "These jobs aren't coming back." This was to Obama, I believe.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Why is it shameful? The parts are manufactured and sourced in China, why wouldn't the simplest thing being to assembly them there as well? Especially since most of the iPhone sales arent even in the US?
This is a bit different than forging steel parts for building a car, which can originate domestically relatively easily. But we aren't going to be building a components manufacturing industry any time soon.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Why is it shameful? The parts are manufactured and sourced in China, why wouldn't the simplest thing being to assembly them there as well? Especially since most of the iPhone sales arent even in the US?
This is a bit different than forging steel parts for building a car, which can originate domestically relatively easily. But we aren't going to be building a components manufacturing industry any time soon.
We could build a components manufacturing industry if we wanted, we used to have many chip foundries until they were off shored. And, we hardly make steel anymore either.
I can't view that chart, site needs sign up. Last I heard majority of iphone sales are outside the US.
Regardless, it's still logistically simpler to assemble where the components originate.
Sure, some entrepreneurs in the US could start a domestic components business -- but they haven't. Why? The fact that they haven't means either they're missing out on opportunity for no reason, or they know something you don't know, and the business for it wouldn't or hasn't been profitable.
I'm uninformed on this, but i'd guess that steel is an easier process and product than chip foundries. That it's gone also says something about the economic opportunities for US steel. Personally I agree with you that it's a shame the executive class exported manufacturing. But like Jobs said about chips, that ship has sailed, those jobs likely aren't coming back. Meanwhile, Apple does what makes sense -- buy chips where they're made.
About two thirds of all of Apple's sales are out of the USA. It's been that way for some time.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
You don't know the business Apple is in. You don't know Apple's history. In fact I think you use a Windows PC. If so you have no right to blame Apple.
I am a huge Apple fan ever since I first saw a Mac Plus in high school in the late 80's. I've read every book on Apple and Steve Jobs that has ever been published starting with the great book "The Journey is the Reward". I live in Palo Alto and have been by Steve Jobs house many times before his death to maybe catch a glimpse of him and even tried to go there the day he died (the roads were blocked off). I loved Apple so much I bought stock in the company in high school and despite being advised otherwise held onto it throughout the rough 90's and have profited nicely from it. I bought more after the iPhone was announced and profited nicely from that too. I have never sold a share as I truly believe in what Apple does. My beef is not specifically with Apple but with the general outsourcing of our economy to cheaper nations just to save a buck and make Wall Street happy while at the same time destroying our way of life. This has been going on for 20-30 years; both democrats and republicans are to blame.
And, I buy exclusively Apple products (iMac, iPhone, iPad, etc) as they are the best for many reasons. I do use Windows at work but that is not by choice.
The whole supply chain for those components is abroad, the outsourcing happened not just because of labor costs. Apple can't have people idle more than half the year because that's what would happened if they had to employ all those people. That's why they stopped building their on stuff. Once you do that, you have to go somewhere where you can have this quick buildup/teardown of production capacity and close to all your other suppliers.
Also, there is an almost fetishistic obsession of assembly in your words. Very little of the money spend on an Iphone goes to that.
Most of the money you spend on your Iphone goes to high value added items, R&D, support, etc.
Most of that is ACTUALLY SPENT IN THE US. Who the hell do you think pays those engineers, support and retail staff.
Trump's total messed up view of how modern companies work is wrong like everything else he says.
If Apple brought thing back the US, they'd likely build highly automated productions like Chip Fabs, or highly robotized factories build near Long Beach in California.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
Lord! We talk about this time and again. Apple, and others have explained this numerous times.
its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again.
i can't believe the total lack of understanding some people here, in this country, have about these matters. I just read a financial article that discussed the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. 13% is due to trade deals, and a whopping 87% is due to automation. What jobs we lost to trade deals is mostly made up by jobs in import industries and distribution, but no jobs are gained, in any real numbers for losses due to automation. This ratio is going to get worse. Even if, somehow, these lines could be automated, and brought here, we would see virtually no job creation. But this is years off.
We've had manufacturing in the US that didn't require barracks and other things you described; that was well over 100 years ago. The workers at Carrier and Rexnord, just 2 examples, didn't live in barracks; their jobs are now in Mexico so obviously automation didn't take them over. It comes down to greedy executives and greedy Wall Street. The biggest employer 25 years ago was GM - good paying skilled middle class jobs. Today the biggest employer today is Walmart - low skilled minimum wage jobs. We are tuning into a nation of MBAs, logistic managers and bean counters. I shutter to think what is going to happen with the next world war, will we have to beg China to make our planes and tanks since we have no skilled workers in the US to make them?
And, I'd gladly pay a bit more for an iPhone made in the US but I'm sure Cook and crew would never risk lower their profit margin and therefore their bonus to have this happen. You are basically saying if slave labor cannot make our things then they just won't get made. That is the most shameful of all.
Trump should water board Cook. That would get jobs back in the USA.
Yes, 2/3rds of Apple's sales are outside of the US, but the US is still the largest single market, followed by Europe then China.
The parts/manufacturing price of an iPhone is estimated to be ~ $250. Of course that doesn't include R&D costs but that's harder to estimate as it is depreciated over many generations of phones
A 15% pay raise when you're making $2/hr is not a big deal vs. making $25/h
The chinese firms building plants here are all or mostly in the planning phase; we'll see which ones actually get built. And, this pales in comparison to the US factories that have moved to China.
Apple's R&D is done in the US currently we'll see how long that last now that Cook said he want R&D centers in China.
I'm not obsessed just with Apple's manufacturing coming back to the US but with manufacturing in general coming back to the US. We hardly make anything anymore. Not everyone can work in R&D, we need decent paying jobs for the low/middle class.
But, like I said, I give up, you win. I will now be a strong proponent of offshoring jobs to 3rd world countries with cheap labor. When I eventually lose my job, no big deal, I'll just go on one of the democrats generous welfare and healthcare programs and life will be good. I won't care about our $20T national debt either. Thanks for opening my eyes.
Yes, 2/3rds of Apple's sales are outside of the US, but the US is still the largest single market, followed by Europe then China.
The parts/manufacturing price of an iPhone is estimated to be ~ $250. Of course that doesn't include R&D costs but that's harder to estimate as it is depreciated over many generations of phones
A 15% pay raise when you're making $2/hr is not a big deal vs. making $25/h
The chinese firms building plants here are all or mostly in the planning phase; we'll see which ones actually get built. And, this pales in comparison to the US factories that have moved to China.
Apple's R&D is done in the US currently we'll see how long that last now that Cook said he want R&D centers in China.
I'm not obsessed just with Apple's manufacturing coming back to the US but with manufacturing in general coming back to the US. We hardly make anything anymore. Not everyone can work in R&D, we need decent paying jobs for the low/middle class.
But, like I said, I give up, you win. I will now be a strong proponent of offshoring jobs to 3rd world countries with cheap labor. When I eventually lose my job, no big deal, I'll just go on one of the democrats generous welfare and healthcare programs and life will be good. I won't care about our $20T national debt either. Thanks for opening my eyes.
You're being a bit disingenuous. I mentioned the offshore assembling making sense because most of the iPhones are sold outside the US. If we're the largest single market that's fine but it doesn't change my point that it makes sense for Apple to assembly where the components are manufactured for the majority of their customers.
I agree it's mistake for the US to have outsourced everything, including intellectual work like software development (my field), but how can we force the components to come back? Nobody is stopping an entrepreneur from attempting it, but nobody's doing it. Now what?
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
That's true. And the indian government is not insisting on local manufacturing either (though they would welcome that).
They only need 30% local sourcing to allow single brand retail stores. This protects the mom-and-pop retail stores from being flooded out by single brand company stores or alternatively with bigger companies that indian jobs are created in the parts sourcing stage.
Neither of which is done in the US, which is shameful. Even more so is Apple seems intent on offshoring their R&D work to China too. This is not the Apple I know.
Can't people understand that this isn't manufacturing, it's assembly. There's a difference. Manufacturing is actually the process of making parts, while assembly is just putting them together. Assembly is the lowest value part of manufacturing.
.... its not shameful at all. It can't happen here. I really don't know what's wrong with you people. Do you believe that nonsense that Trump spouts? Assembly of phones is done in countries that are developing because American workers will never again work the way they do there. Around the turn of the 19th century to the 20th, we used to have workers live in barracks, buy exclusively from the company store, and send a bit of money home to their families. Mining companies were the last to do this kind of thing.it even inspired a famous song.
this is the way it works in China, India, and a few other developing nations. People move hundreds, or even thousands of miles to move into a barracks where they have a single size bed with a foot locker, and a cabinet on the wall above the head board, and that's it. If the company needs 10,000 workers late Saturday night, they go into the barracks and wake these people up and put them on the lines. They live that way, often for years.
there is simply no way that workers in any developed country will ever do that again. ....
I don't know about china (who really does?), but I can tell you your assumptions and imaginations don't apply at all to india. There are no barracks or single beds or anything of that sort. It is a simple job, and people come in public transport (like buses or local trains) or private transport (like low cost motorbikes) and leave in them, and stay where they can find good, cheap accomodation.
Infact there are unions, pensions, mandated national and state holidays, maternity leaves, paternity leaves, overtime pay, and whatnot. Also, the labour laws make it really tough to arbitrarily fire people. Probably, the only difference from US is that at the ground level the line managers et al. can exert a bit more pressure to ensure discipline and targets, because when push comes to shove, the local bureaucracy and justice system can be managed with bribe money for small issues. And it helps that india is not a suing crazy country (i.e. you won't get lawsuits for spilling hot coffee).
The only aspect of what you said that is little true, is the migration. People do migrate hundreds of miles (not thousands) to a big city to get jobs. That is due to lack of jobs in the interiors, and the farming sector being already overloaded with people (60-70% of india is into farming).
Yes, 2/3rds of Apple's sales are outside of the US, but the US is still the largest single market, followed by Europe then China.
The parts/manufacturing price of an iPhone is estimated to be ~ $250. Of course that doesn't include R&D costs but that's harder to estimate as it is depreciated over many generations of phones
A 15% pay raise when you're making $2/hr is not a big deal vs. making $25/h
The chinese firms building plants here are all or mostly in the planning phase; we'll see which ones actually get built. And, this pales in comparison to the US factories that have moved to China.
Apple's R&D is done in the US currently we'll see how long that last now that Cook said he want R&D centers in China.
I'm not obsessed just with Apple's manufacturing coming back to the US but with manufacturing in general coming back to the US. We hardly make anything anymore. Not everyone can work in R&D, we need decent paying jobs for the low/middle class.
But, like I said, I give up, you win. I will now be a strong proponent of offshoring jobs to 3rd world countries with cheap labor. When I eventually lose my job, no big deal, I'll just go on one of the democrats generous welfare and healthcare programs and life will be good. I won't care about our $20T national debt either. Thanks for opening my eyes.
You're being a bit disingenuous. I mentioned the offshore assembling making sense because most of the iPhones are sold outside the US. If we're the largest single market that's fine but it doesn't change my point that it makes sense for Apple to assembly where the components are manufactured for the majority of their customers.
I agree it's mistake for the US to have outsourced everything, including intellectual work like software development (my field), but how can we force the components to come back? Nobody is stopping an entrepreneur from attempting it, but nobody's doing it. Now what?
Maybe a bit.
You essentially contradict yourself when you say "but it doesn't change my point that it makes sense for Apple to assembly where the components are manufactured for the majority of their customers", the majority of their customers are in the US; Europe is second and China is a distant 3rd and dropping every year due to chinese competition (basically iPhone rip-offs). The iPhone is definitely not made where a majority of their customers are.
The only way to make it come back is by tariffs and government regulations (as much as I dislike them). China and India have no problem doing this. And china does not let American companies even compete in China: Google, Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, Uber, and on and on are banned in favor of the equivalent domestic version (Baidu, Alibaba, Weibo, Didi Chuxing, etc...). Only 1 in 10 copies of Windows used in China is legally licensed.
I work in life science and constantly see good paying highly skilled jobs being offshore to China. And since there is no IP protection, whatever you invent here is quickly copied in China so there is no point in being an innovator. I'm just afraid we are going to wake up one day and it's going to be too late and we'll be the Spain or Greece of the world. It will happen and sooner than we think.
Yes, 2/3rds of Apple's sales are outside of the US, but the US is still the largest single market, followed by Europe then China.
The parts/manufacturing price of an iPhone is estimated to be ~ $250. Of course that doesn't include R&D costs but that's harder to estimate as it is depreciated over many generations of phones
A 15% pay raise when you're making $2/hr is not a big deal vs. making $25/h
The chinese firms building plants here are all or mostly in the planning phase; we'll see which ones actually get built. And, this pales in comparison to the US factories that have moved to China.
Apple's R&D is done in the US currently we'll see how long that last now that Cook said he want R&D centers in China.
I'm not obsessed just with Apple's manufacturing coming back to the US but with manufacturing in general coming back to the US. We hardly make anything anymore. Not everyone can work in R&D, we need decent paying jobs for the low/middle class.
But, like I said, I give up, you win. I will now be a strong proponent of offshoring jobs to 3rd world countries with cheap labor. When I eventually lose my job, no big deal, I'll just go on one of the democrats generous welfare and healthcare programs and life will be good. I won't care about our $20T national debt either. Thanks for opening my eyes.
You're being a bit disingenuous. I mentioned the offshore assembling making sense because most of the iPhones are sold outside the US. If we're the largest single market that's fine but it doesn't change my point that it makes sense for Apple to assembly where the components are manufactured for the majority of their customers.
I agree it's mistake for the US to have outsourced everything, including intellectual work like software development (my field), but how can we force the components to come back? Nobody is stopping an entrepreneur from attempting it, but nobody's doing it. Now what?
Maybe a bit.
You essentially contradict yourself when you say "but it doesn't change my point that it makes sense for Apple to assembly where the components are manufactured for the majority of their customers", the majority of their customers are in the US; Europe is second and China is a distant 3rd and dropping every year due to chinese competition (basically iPhone rip-offs). The iPhone is definitely not made where a majority of their customers are.
No, you're still being disingenuous (and wrong) -- the majority of the phones are sold outside the US. Do you understand how numbers work? Ok if not imagine a pie -- i cut you one large piece, and then I cut 6 smaller pieces and give them to other people. You have the biggest piece, but do you have the *majority* of the pie? No, you have one fucking piece and everybody else has the rest, which is the majority of the pie. Now stop playing word games.
Apple could theoretically setup an assembly line (via a local partner) in any country to appease any regulations like this. It's doesn't change the components or where they come from, just instead of shipping pre-assembled phones to India, they're shipping the parts individually and assembling them there. The cost of assembly shifts from China to India but it's undoubtedly cheaper overall, bypassing the import tariffs.
They could do similar in the USA and have "Designed in California, Assembled in Texas" for example on the devices, pleasing many 'mericans.
No, they can't. Right now, phone assembly requires tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of trained assembly line workers, and hundreds to thousands of "line engineers", a position we don't even have here.
Apple just need a load of Number 6s. (Battlestar Galactica reference for the Sci-Fi uninitiated)
Comments
Ok, I give up. Let's outsource all of our jobs to China and become a 3rd world country. Then, maybe one day, China will become so prosperous they will outsource the jobs back to us. Sounds like a plan.
Regardless, it's still logistically simpler to assemble where the components originate.
Sure, some entrepreneurs in the US could start a domestic components business -- but they haven't. Why? The fact that they haven't means either they're missing out on opportunity for no reason, or they know something you don't know, and the business for it wouldn't or hasn't been profitable.
I'm uninformed on this, but i'd guess that steel is an easier process and product than chip foundries. That it's gone also says something about the economic opportunities for US steel. Personally I agree with you that it's a shame the executive class exported manufacturing. But like Jobs said about chips, that ship has sailed, those jobs likely aren't coming back. Meanwhile, Apple does what makes sense -- buy chips where they're made.
these free trade agreement, despite your ignorance, and the ignorance the Republicans are forstering on people, have little to do with loss of jobs. We had these visas long before Obama came into office. In fact, Bush increased the numbers quite a lot. Trump is a lier, and that's why they voted for him. Look at what's happening with the Republican health insurance bill. He promised that everyone would get coverage, it would be better than with the Affordable Care Act, and now, they've cut back so much, it's estimated that 14 million people will lose their health insurance in the first 12 months, and at least 10 million more will lose it in the 9 years after. Yet, the people who are going to lose with this bill, which, by the way, wasn't even voted upon today because conserviaives want to cut even more from it, are from the red states that voted for him.
so, please don't talk about what Trump says. I'm a New Yorker, I know all about Trump.
its not as though there is no manufacturing of anything for Apple products here. But Apple has no control over where parts are made. They can't force a manufacturer to make something they don't want to. Example is Corning, and I explained this in the thread for an earlier article a week or so ago. Corning makes large sheets of Gorilla glass. They then ship that glass to a company in China which cuts the glass and finishes it for Apple, and others. Why doesn't Corning cut and finish it here? Because they don't want to.
and you haven't paid any attention to what's being said here as to why this isn't happening. Ok, live in your own little world.
You just don't get it. Costs in China have skyrocketed in the past few years. Estimates are that wages there will rise an additional 15% this year. Do wages rise like that here?
we have a number of Chinese firms building products here. In fact, though I don't remember the name just now, a large Chinese car manufacturer is building a production plant here, in the USA. They want to sell cars here, AND they want to export them back to China. Why? Costs!
I'll add add some names of large Chinese manufacturers setting up plants in the USA. This is not intended to be a comprehensive list.
http://www.masslive.com/business-news/index.ssf/2016/03/crrc_ma_will_begin_to_develop_workforce.html
http://money.cnn.com/2015/03/30/news/companies/volvo-new-factory-u-s-/
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/china-billionaire-factory-ohio/2016/10/26/id/755540/
http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/second-electric-car-company-plans-manufacturing-plant-southern-nevada
Thats just a few. I've been saying for years now, that we would begin seeing this in the late 201xs. It's happening. At some point in time, it won't matter where something is manufacturered, because costs are converging. It's getting much more expensive to manufacturer in places like China.
About two thirds of all of Apple's sales are out of the USA. It's been that way for some time.
Apple can't have people idle more than half the year because that's what would happened if they had to employ all those people.
That's why they stopped building their on stuff. Once you do that, you have to go somewhere where you can have this quick buildup/teardown of production capacity and close to all your other suppliers.
Also, there is an almost fetishistic obsession of assembly in your words.
Very little of the money spend on an Iphone goes to that.
Most of the money you spend on your Iphone goes to high value added items, R&D, support, etc.
Most of that is ACTUALLY SPENT IN THE US. Who the hell do you think pays those engineers, support and retail staff.
Trump's total messed up view of how modern companies work is wrong like everything else he says.
If Apple brought thing back the US, they'd likely build highly automated productions like Chip Fabs, or highly robotized factories build
near Long Beach in California.
- Yes, 2/3rds of Apple's sales are outside of the US, but the US is still the largest single market, followed by Europe then China.
- The parts/manufacturing price of an iPhone is estimated to be ~ $250. Of course that doesn't include R&D costs but that's harder to estimate as it is depreciated over many generations of phones
- A 15% pay raise when you're making $2/hr is not a big deal vs. making $25/h
- The chinese firms building plants here are all or mostly in the planning phase; we'll see which ones actually get built. And, this pales in comparison to the US factories that have moved to China.
- Apple's R&D is done in the US currently we'll see how long that last now that Cook said he want R&D centers in China.
- I'm not obsessed just with Apple's manufacturing coming back to the US but with manufacturing in general coming back to the US. We hardly make anything anymore. Not everyone can work in R&D, we need decent paying jobs for the low/middle class.
But, like I said, I give up, you win. I will now be a strong proponent of offshoring jobs to 3rd world countries with cheap labor. When I eventually lose my job, no big deal, I'll just go on one of the democrats generous welfare and healthcare programs and life will be good. I won't care about our $20T national debt either. Thanks for opening my eyes.I agree it's mistake for the US to have outsourced everything, including intellectual work like software development (my field), but how can we force the components to come back? Nobody is stopping an entrepreneur from attempting it, but nobody's doing it. Now what?
They only need 30% local sourcing to allow single brand retail stores. This protects the mom-and-pop retail stores from being flooded out by single brand company stores or alternatively with bigger companies that indian jobs are created in the parts sourcing stage.
Infact there are unions, pensions, mandated national and state holidays, maternity leaves, paternity leaves, overtime pay, and whatnot. Also, the labour laws make it really tough to arbitrarily fire people. Probably, the only difference from US is that at the ground level the line managers et al. can exert a bit more pressure to ensure discipline and targets, because when push comes to shove, the local bureaucracy and justice system can be managed with bribe money for small issues. And it helps that india is not a suing crazy country (i.e. you won't get lawsuits for spilling hot coffee).
The only aspect of what you said that is little true, is the migration. People do migrate hundreds of miles (not thousands) to a big city to get jobs. That is due to lack of jobs in the interiors, and the farming sector being already overloaded with people (60-70% of india is into farming).
You essentially contradict yourself when you say "but it doesn't change my point that it makes sense for Apple to assembly where the components are manufactured for the majority of their customers", the majority of their customers are in the US; Europe is second and China is a distant 3rd and dropping every year due to chinese competition (basically iPhone rip-offs). The iPhone is definitely not made where a majority of their customers are.
The only way to make it come back is by tariffs and government regulations (as much as I dislike them). China and India have no problem doing this. And china does not let American companies even compete in China: Google, Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, Uber, and on and on are banned in favor of the equivalent domestic version (Baidu, Alibaba, Weibo, Didi Chuxing, etc...). Only 1 in 10 copies of Windows used in China is legally licensed.
I work in life science and constantly see good paying highly skilled jobs being offshore to China. And since there is no IP protection, whatever you invent here is quickly copied in China so there is no point in being an innovator. I'm just afraid we are going to wake up one day and it's going to be too late and we'll be the Spain or Greece of the world. It will happen and sooner than we think.