Welcome back AI, it's been a long time. Maybe too long. People don't seem to be rushing back too soon.
As far as the G5 goes, I'm selling my G4/450 now in anticipation of the G5 in January.... I hope. Here's what I'm looking for:
G5 Chip starting @ 1.2 Ghz, mid range 1.4 and hopefully topping out at 1.6 Ghz as the Mot updates have been reporting.
DDR 266Mhz memory bus speed.
Fire Wire @800Mb and USB 2.0 as well. We can't be left out of the latest.
Hopefully the return of ATI with the Radeon 8500 64 MB DDR Memory.
That's all I can think of right now. I hope the price point is lowered like the PB's have been to remain competitive. It seems that they're going to be updating the LCD panels at this time as well. Whether or not it's just a cosmetic change to compliment the new G5 look or the larger size offerings.... Like a new 18" and 24" cinema display that had been talked about. This would be interesting to see if they could replace the 22" at the same price point would be the telling issue. Well, the ball is in your court. Any thought's?
If the public does not want to believe that processor efficiency is the generally important factor then thats life unless Apple is going to release a string of advertisements going through that.
Apple's G4 line currently stands up to the Pentium 4 as well as it needs to. The G4 is more efficient by a large margin being that the P4's behemoth pipeline depth squanders every single piece of special gadgtery they shoved in it.
The P4 is a makerting tool, and not as efficient as the P3! As long as Intel can lap up the masses with the MHZ myth, and Apple keeps falling over itself...we'll see whats up now that Motorolas outta the way....the fest will continue.
How does one stupify the messgae of efficiency enough so that the public would buy it?
[quote]<strong>Originally posted by Steve Jobs (iCEO):
YAY G5s!!! They are teh win! My G5s eat Pentium 4s for LUNCH! Intel has got vacuum pow4r, AND I WHIPE MY ASS WITH PENTIUM 4s DOOD!!!!1</strong><hr></blockquote>
A shocking and cryptic message from Steve himself. :eek: :eek:
Monkey, I agree with you. My point wasn't that the MHZ Myth isn't real, but that the G5 is our best hope of giving Apple the boost it needs.
My 2 year old G4 is still going strong after friends' PCs bought at the same time are being used as door stops, but we're preaching to the preachers here...
Steve explaining the Myth at every macworld isnt helping anyone, 99% of the people watching know this already. But we also know that even though the G4 (and G3) processors are much more superior in their architecture, they are also suffering in development of faster chips, mainly due to minute developing funding when compared to say Intel, who have much deeper pockets than Apple, and who do not need to rely on third parties such as IBM or Moto to develop the chips.
But another reason we need the G5s is to gain access to current standards in high end PCs (high end as in those over the 1000 buck mark) such as 400mhz system buses and heaven forbid even DDR ram
Many of those who have seen and used OSX realize the power of the OS and the Mac itself, but when looking at prices, don't find many of the standards found in the PC world available for the Mac and usually at much less $.
I really think we wont see a major architectural change in the Powermac until the G5, so its certainly a case of the sooner the better...
P.S. I WANT ATI CARDS AGAIN! Why the Radeon hasnt been a BTO in months is incredible.. I know that Steve got peeved at ATI, but their cards are proven superior in many areas (mainly 2D = Macs are huge in what field?) and we should at least have them as an option to the GeForce's...
[quote]P4's behemoth pipeline depth squanders every single piece of special gadgtery they shoved in it.
<hr></blockquote>
Nonsense.
[quote]The P4 is a makerting tool, and not as efficient as the P3! As long as Intel can lap up the masses with the MHZ myth<hr></blockquote>
The P4 is far superior to the P3. It is accurate to say it lags in IPC on legacy code, but the P4 wasn't made for legacy code or the .18 micron process it is being manufactured on.
BTW, while there are some real kludges in the P4, JFW is correct that it's not like Intel's been throwing the billions in R&D into a hole you know - the G4 design is over three years old, and needs to be refreshed soon. It is getting humiliated in the SPEC benchmarks, and while not a bad design at the time, Moto's sh**y manufacturing tech has really held it back from its potential. Hopefully Moto will get its act together for the g5...
[quote]Originally posted by JFW:
<strong>
The P4 is far superior to the P3. It is accurate to say it lags in IPC on legacy code, but the P4 wasn't made for legacy code or the .18 micron process it is being manufactured on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anyone waiting for a G5 out needs to be slapped. They haven't even finished revising the chip and somehow it is going to be out by January? Yeah right...
You guys are going to be profoundly disappointed in January then because Apple has produced nothing but incremental improvements for ages now.
Here is what I predict will happen.
Duel 1 gig G4 high end
933 g4 mid range
867 g4 new low end
more screaming and cursing from Mac masses as Apple refuses to give a nickle anyplace in their line up and decide to still leave the 867 with no level 3 cache. First two levels have superdrives and benevolet Apple decides to finally give low end a DVD/CDR drive which everyone immediately complains has a slow write speed.
Because of the terrible economic climate, slowing sales, and everyone screaming that their 30%+ profit rate, Apple finally lops $100 off the entire line which has everyone singing gloriously because the Pro line now starts at a whole $1599 again.(Still no DDR and still GF2mx card though they bump them to 64 megs and twin view across the line)
The iMac line has abysmal sales but Apple refuses to give up the 15 inch model because they know it would bite into the sales of the ridiculously overpriced towers. There are some small concessions however in an attempt to bring up sales.
iMac@700, 800 and 900 (yes still 100 mhz bus)
15inch monitor (yes, still no lcd)
32 meg gf2mx200 (lower speed MX)
cd-r with dvd/cd-r option available
In a move to boost iMac sales, Apple will finally allow video out and not just mirroring on the iMac. The Gf2mx card supports this natively and Apple looks like a genius for shipping it. Steve Jobs declares another innovation because now the entire line has duel display support.
Pricing is $699 (low end education version)$899,999, and $1099 with $125 more being charged for BTO combo DVD,CD-R drive. Everyone is a little pissed because Apple is overcharging for the drive, some declare that Apple is justified, other declare they will buy a firewire enclosure and drive at their local computer show.
But aren't most rumors based on in-the-ball-park info? These rumors are not only saying that the G5 will debut in jan but also that they will be high ghz speeds.
Well, it's nice to dream, I hope it's based on some evidence.
If Steve Jobs can get a G5 out at MWSF he will. It would kick start the desktop sales. You could see following for Pro desktop, top dual 1.4GHz G5 ($$$$) single 1.6GHz G5 ($$$) dual 1GHz G4 ($$) and the low end Pro desktop a 1.2GHz G4 ($). This would allow them promote a new generation of chips and still use the G4 until it moves to the consumer line.
As far as the post about the iMac.....you will see a LCD iMac......Steve is probably fuming that Gateway is selling a compleate pc with lcd for $999.99. You will probably see three imac 700 Mhz to 1GHz....may be SE with a G4 w/ SuperDrive.
<strong>If Steve Jobs can get a G5 out at MWSF he will. It would kick start the desktop sales. You could see following for Pro desktop, top dual 1.4GHz G5 ($$$$) single 1.6GHz G5 ($$$) dual 1GHz G4 ($$) and the low end Pro desktop a 1.2GHz G4 ($). This would allow them promote a new generation of chips and still use the G4 until it moves to the consumer line.
As far as the post about the iMac.....you will see a LCD iMac......Steve is probably fuming that Gateway is selling a compleate pc with lcd for $999.99. You will probably see three imac 700 Mhz to 1GHz....may be SE with a G4 w/ SuperDrive.
I just think Apple needs to moving desktops....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but gateway has sold a all-in-one lcd model before and it was a flop. And poor quality at that. Apples will actually be in demand.
<strong>I say January; they COULD be out by then. It really depends on whether Apple wants the power out there, or whether they wanna milk the G4 for all the cash they can. I don't think they'll sell many more with the advent of the G5 possibly so close.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>agree with Cipher.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agree with Jonathan!
I also believe that the iMac (or the iMac 2) will move to the G4 at the same time. Apple will refresh the entire desktop line at once, when this happens.
Comments
As far as the G5 goes, I'm selling my G4/450 now in anticipation of the G5 in January.... I hope. Here's what I'm looking for:
G5 Chip starting @ 1.2 Ghz, mid range 1.4 and hopefully topping out at 1.6 Ghz as the Mot updates have been reporting.
DDR 266Mhz memory bus speed.
Fire Wire @800Mb and USB 2.0 as well. We can't be left out of the latest.
Hopefully the return of ATI with the Radeon 8500 64 MB DDR Memory.
That's all I can think of right now. I hope the price point is lowered like the PB's have been to remain competitive. It seems that they're going to be updating the LCD panels at this time as well. Whether or not it's just a cosmetic change to compliment the new G5 look or the larger size offerings.... Like a new 18" and 24" cinema display that had been talked about. This would be interesting to see if they could replace the 22" at the same price point would be the telling issue. Well, the ball is in your court. Any thought's?
If the public does not want to believe that processor efficiency is the generally important factor then thats life unless Apple is going to release a string of advertisements going through that.
Apple's G4 line currently stands up to the Pentium 4 as well as it needs to. The G4 is more efficient by a large margin being that the P4's behemoth pipeline depth squanders every single piece of special gadgtery they shoved in it.
The P4 is a makerting tool, and not as efficient as the P3! As long as Intel can lap up the masses with the MHZ myth, and Apple keeps falling over itself...we'll see whats up now that Motorolas outta the way....the fest will continue.
How does one stupify the messgae of efficiency enough so that the public would buy it?
Here's what I'm looking for:
1.2 SP, 1.6 SP, 1.4 MP GHz G5
128, 256, 512 MB DDR RAM
60, 80, 100 GB hard drive
DVD/CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD-RW
GeForce3 Ti 200, GeForce3, GeForce3 Ti 500
Firewire 2 and USB 2
new glossy black enclosure with 2 full drive bays
$1699, $2499, $3499
in 1.2, 1.6, 2 GHz speeds
Wait and See
YAY G5s!!! They are teh win! My G5s eat Pentium 4s for LUNCH! Intel has got vacuum pow4r, AND I WHIPE MY ASS WITH PENTIUM 4s DOOD!!!!1</strong><hr></blockquote>
A shocking and cryptic message from Steve himself. :eek: :eek:
My 2 year old G4 is still going strong after friends' PCs bought at the same time are being used as door stops, but we're preaching to the preachers here...
Steve explaining the Myth at every macworld isnt helping anyone, 99% of the people watching know this already. But we also know that even though the G4 (and G3) processors are much more superior in their architecture, they are also suffering in development of faster chips, mainly due to minute developing funding when compared to say Intel, who have much deeper pockets than Apple, and who do not need to rely on third parties such as IBM or Moto to develop the chips.
But another reason we need the G5s is to gain access to current standards in high end PCs (high end as in those over the 1000 buck mark) such as 400mhz system buses and heaven forbid even DDR ram
Many of those who have seen and used OSX realize the power of the OS and the Mac itself, but when looking at prices, don't find many of the standards found in the PC world available for the Mac and usually at much less $.
I really think we wont see a major architectural change in the Powermac until the G5, so its certainly a case of the sooner the better...
P.S. I WANT ATI CARDS AGAIN! Why the Radeon hasnt been a BTO in months is incredible.. I know that Steve got peeved at ATI, but their cards are proven superior in many areas (mainly 2D = Macs are huge in what field?) and we should at least have them as an option to the GeForce's...
<hr></blockquote>
Nonsense.
[quote]The P4 is a makerting tool, and not as efficient as the P3! As long as Intel can lap up the masses with the MHZ myth<hr></blockquote>
The P4 is far superior to the P3. It is accurate to say it lags in IPC on legacy code, but the P4 wasn't made for legacy code or the .18 micron process it is being manufactured on.
under the hood
:cool:
BTW, while there are some real kludges in the P4, JFW is correct that it's not like Intel's been throwing the billions in R&D into a hole you know - the G4 design is over three years old, and needs to be refreshed soon. It is getting humiliated in the SPEC benchmarks, and while not a bad design at the time, Moto's sh**y manufacturing tech has really held it back from its potential. Hopefully Moto will get its act together for the g5...
[quote]Originally posted by JFW:
<strong>
The P4 is far superior to the P3. It is accurate to say it lags in IPC on legacy code, but the P4 wasn't made for legacy code or the .18 micron process it is being manufactured on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You guys are going to be profoundly disappointed in January then because Apple has produced nothing but incremental improvements for ages now.
Here is what I predict will happen.
Duel 1 gig G4 high end
933 g4 mid range
867 g4 new low end
more screaming and cursing from Mac masses as Apple refuses to give a nickle anyplace in their line up and decide to still leave the 867 with no level 3 cache. First two levels have superdrives and benevolet Apple decides to finally give low end a DVD/CDR drive which everyone immediately complains has a slow write speed.
Because of the terrible economic climate, slowing sales, and everyone screaming that their 30%+ profit rate, Apple finally lops $100 off the entire line which has everyone singing gloriously because the Pro line now starts at a whole $1599 again.(Still no DDR and still GF2mx card though they bump them to 64 megs and twin view across the line)
The iMac line has abysmal sales but Apple refuses to give up the 15 inch model because they know it would bite into the sales of the ridiculously overpriced towers. There are some small concessions however in an attempt to bring up sales.
iMac@700, 800 and 900 (yes still 100 mhz bus)
15inch monitor (yes, still no lcd)
32 meg gf2mx200 (lower speed MX)
cd-r with dvd/cd-r option available
In a move to boost iMac sales, Apple will finally allow video out and not just mirroring on the iMac. The Gf2mx card supports this natively and Apple looks like a genius for shipping it. Steve Jobs declares another innovation because now the entire line has duel display support.
Pricing is $699 (low end education version)$899,999, and $1099 with $125 more being charged for BTO combo DVD,CD-R drive. Everyone is a little pissed because Apple is overcharging for the drive, some declare that Apple is justified, other declare they will buy a firewire enclosure and drive at their local computer show.
Trumptman
? so as with all rumors, trust no one
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: murk ]</p>
Well, it's nice to dream, I hope it's based on some evidence.
As far as the post about the iMac.....you will see a LCD iMac......Steve is probably fuming that Gateway is selling a compleate pc with lcd for $999.99. You will probably see three imac 700 Mhz to 1GHz....may be SE with a G4 w/ SuperDrive.
I just think Apple needs to moving desktops....
<strong>If Steve Jobs can get a G5 out at MWSF he will. It would kick start the desktop sales. You could see following for Pro desktop, top dual 1.4GHz G5 ($$$$) single 1.6GHz G5 ($$$) dual 1GHz G4 ($$) and the low end Pro desktop a 1.2GHz G4 ($). This would allow them promote a new generation of chips and still use the G4 until it moves to the consumer line.
As far as the post about the iMac.....you will see a LCD iMac......Steve is probably fuming that Gateway is selling a compleate pc with lcd for $999.99. You will probably see three imac 700 Mhz to 1GHz....may be SE with a G4 w/ SuperDrive.
I just think Apple needs to moving desktops....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but gateway has sold a all-in-one lcd model before and it was a flop. And poor quality at that. Apples will actually be in demand.
[quote]Heh - get tired of the ArsTechnica boards JFW?<hr></blockquote>
Funny as it sounds, most of the people I get tired of are probably here as well
Actually, my account on AI goes back to December 99, before I registered with Ars.
<strong>I say January; they COULD be out by then. It really depends on whether Apple wants the power out there, or whether they wanna milk the G4 for all the cash they can. I don't think they'll sell many more with the advent of the G5 possibly so close.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>agree with Cipher.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agree with Jonathan!
I also believe that the iMac (or the iMac 2) will move to the G4 at the same time. Apple will refresh the entire desktop line at once, when this happens.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: FormerLurker ]</p>