Foxconn official says employee had suspicious history

[AppleInsider]

After a Foxconn employee allegedly committed suicide when an iPhone prototype vanished, an official with the Chinese manufacturing company said the former employee had demonstrated a pattern of suspiciously losing products.

Speaking with The New York Times, James Lee, general manager of China operations, said the employee's explanation for the missing phone did not seem credible.

“Several times he had some products missing, then he got them back,” Lee said. “We don’t know who took the product, but it was at his stop.”

A Times reporter was given a tour of the Chinese company's facilities, but was not allowed to see the assembly line to protect trade secrets. When the reporter spoke with employees outside of the company's control, one of about 15 admitted they were forced to work overtime beyond the legal limit.

Sun Danyong allegedly killed himself after a prototype he was responsible for -- reportedly a fourth-generation iPhone -- went missing. Prior to his death, friends said he told them he was subjected to "unbearable interrogation techniques" by Foxconn employees, leading some to believe he was beaten. Sun reportedly had his property seized and was held in solitary confinement before he jumped from a 12-story building last week.

The Times also reported that Foxconn paid Sun's family a settlement of about $44,000 and an Apple laptop computer. As a translator spoke to the family last week, a security guard, joined by two men in Foxconn shirts, threatened the translator and told them to stop asking the family questions. Foxconn officials later said the person was not on their staff.

When the story of Sun's death first began to spread, Apple issued a response.

"We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death," an Apple spokesperson said. "We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."

Industry experts overseas have said it is unlikely that Apple will end its manufacturing partnership with Foxconn.

The alleged suicide is one of numerous scandals that has hurt the Chinese company's image. Apple audited Foxconn in 2006 after reports surfaced in a British newspaper about supposed poor working conditions in the Chinese factories. And this month, the company's foreign factories

[PG4G]

This is... very worrying.

Foxconn seems to have very little respect for its employees, and with China's record on trying to maintain "public image" over "true integrity", there seems to be very little that Foxconn WOULDN'T say. I personally find anything that Foxconn says to be hard to believe in fullness.

Anything Foxconn says will be tainted with business interest, not integrity. Their business is based on Apple's buying from them, and thats based on public image and integrity. If they lose that, people may not be happy with Apple, and Apple may be FORCED to change. We don't see what happens in the factories. That means they can say whatever they like, and not let anyone actually SEE what's going on.

Chinese "honesty" doesn't really convince me - from the Government, or from their businesses. They are both of a country and culture where they say one thing, and do something totally different.

[digitalclips]

We will never know of course. There are many possible scenarios one of which is he was pushed I guess ... but that could have been by the people he was perhaps working with to acquire these devices i.e. a competitor of Apple, now realizing he may talk. It is the stuff movies are made of!

[nbidgood]

So he has a suspicious history, but the trust him to handle what's likely their most protected new product? This story sounds pretty suspicious.

Foxconn manager #1: We need to send 16 iPhones prototype to Apple headquarters. Who should take care of that.
Foxconn manager #2: We'll have Sun Danyong do it.
Foxconn manager #1: Sun? But he has a history of suspiciously losing products.
Foxconn manager #2: What's the big deal? They're only super secret fourth-generation iPhones, why would anyone want to steal those?

[Mystigo]

The posthumous definition of a man's character by those who stand accused of involvement in his death should be taken with a grain of salt me thinks.

[digitalclips]

Originally Posted by PG4G

This is... very worrying.


Chinese "honesty" doesn't really convince me - from the Government, or from their businesses. They are both of a country and culture where they say one thing, and do something totally different.

Partial quote

I hate to be cynical but US tobacco companies, banks, real estate appraisers, insurance companies and many other examples in our free enterprise, democratic model don't seem to be paragons of virtue in these respects either. Where money and people are involved you can expect strange stuff going on. Sad but true.

[charlituna]

Originally Posted by Mystigo

The posthumous definition of a man's character by those who stand accused of involvement in his death should be taken with a grain of salt me thinks.

yes but typically wouldn't you also take it with a grain of salt when the only proof of something is 'friends of'. friends that could have been in a scheme to photograph etc one of these prototypes. and after caught are trying to say that the man was tortured etc. tis curious.

also curious is how the item was missing apparently for 4 days before reported. or supposed noticed as missing. which actually fits with this newest story of 'losing' things and then 'oops, nope, there it is'. consider the number of rumors sourced from 'in china' and 'insiders at a chinese supplier'.

and then there is the two very different stories about how the missing prototype was found to be missing. widely different stories. one with the employee apparently having an unsealed box and 'realizing' it was missing and thinking he left it at the factory by accident. and the other story of having it discovered when the box reached Apple and someone thinking "hey weren't they supposed to send us 16, not 15 and looking up and finding yes, it was supposed to be 16".

all of this makes things questionable. and somehow I doubt we will ever find out the truth.

[PG4G]

Originally Posted by digitalclips

Partial quote

I hate to be cynical but US tobacco companies, banks, real estate appraisers, insurance companies and many other examples in our free enterprise, democratic model don't seem to be paragons of virtue in these respects either. Where money and people are involved you can expect strange stuff going on. Sad but true.

Perhaps. But there is very little transparency here.

In America, or Australia where I live, someone would take a picture of how things are, and it would be all over the news, and the government would regulate and actively control and enforce law.

China is different. There is no accountability (or very little) to hold a company to the law. And China will actively ignore the law if it works to their own benefit. They're not worried about their employee's working conditions. They're only worried about their "bigger picture" - how China can succeed as an economic superpower.

[godrifle]

After a Foxconn employee allegedly committed suicide when an iPhone prototype vanished, an official with the Chinese manufacturing company said the former employee had demonstrated a pattern of suspiciously losing products.

Oh, well that's different then. Driving a man to kill himself on a first offense is over the top, but if he's got a history of misplacing electronic gadgets with a shelf-life of 12 months...


Shame Apple.

[irnchriz]

Looks like that if you steal from Foxconn you really are for the high jump!

[Mac Voyer]

As my brother used to say, "If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas." This sort of press is just the price of doing business in China. It is naive to think that work conditions and human rights would be the same in a factory in China as it is in America. That is why companies do business there in the first place. If Apple wanted to make sure that all employees were treated with respect and dignity with a decent wage for work ratio, they would build the products in America. This is the result of saving money at any cost.

This is the inevitable conclusion of lying down with a totalitarian state. Just ask Google.

[Quadra 610]

Originally Posted by Mac Voyer

As my brother used to say, "If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas." This sort of press is just the price of doing business in China. It is naive to think that work conditions and human rights would be the same in a factory in China as it is in America. That is why companies do business there in the first place. If Apple wanted to make sure that all employees were treated with respect and dignity with a decent wage for work ratio, they would build the products in America. This is the result of saving money at any cost.

This is the inevitable conclusion of lying down with a totalitarian state. Just ask Google.

Apple can't babysit its suppliers.

And it really isn't that easy to open up shop in the US. Not so easy to afford anymore. Powerful unions made sure of that.

[success]

Three words.


MKULTRA.

[JulesLt]

Originally Posted by Quadra 610

And it really isn't that easy to open up shop in the US. Not so easy to afford anymore. Powerful unions made sure of that.

Powerful unions who do things like ensure their workers are paid a minimum wage / for the hours they work / don't work in life-threatening environments, etc.

The problem is that it's not as simple as Apple moving their manufacturing back to the US, or even opening their own factories in China and employing Chinese staff under fair conditions, when they have to compete with rivals still manufacturing in China, and turning a blind eye to what's going on.

And the only solution to this – improved conditions for workers - is going to mean lowered margins or higher prices for consumers (or robots becoming cheaper than paying third world salaries).

[Zoolook]

Originally Posted by nbidgood

So he has a suspicious history, but the trust him to handle what's likely their most protected new product? This story sounds pretty suspicious.

Foxconn manager #1: We need to send 16 iPhones prototype to Apple headquarters. Who should take care of that.
Foxconn manager #2: We'll have Sun Danyong do it.
Foxconn manager #1: Sun? But he has a history of suspiciously losing products.
Foxconn manager #2: What's the big deal? They're only super secret fourth-generation iPhones, why would anyone want to steal those?

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. I really wish we didn't make things in China with these companies. Foxxcon should be held accountable.

[Hattig]

Originally Posted by Quadra 610

Apple can't babysit its suppliers.

And it really isn't that easy to open up shop in the US. Not so easy to afford anymore. Powerful unions made sure of that.

Robotic assembly can replace most of the manual work in assembling products. The problem is that Chinese workers are cheaper than robots, despite all of the upkeep. Robots are cheaper than Western workers however, but why invest in their development when a cheaper alternative exists?

I'm sure that the unibody construction is all robotic / automatic now. The PCB assembly will be automatic. Final assembly is what isn't automatic, but could be made automatic if money was invested in it. I wonder if Apple have a long term plan for this.

Alternatively they could set up assembly plants in the US that don't have unions (or have an in-house union, like Toyota), just like many other companies have done. Or they could set up factories in Europe.

It isn't as if Apple is Foxconn's only customer. Foxconn are one of the biggest companies on the planet, and will probably provide assembly/manufacturing facilities to most of the big name computer / electronics manufacturers. So you can't shun Apple for this, as you'd have to shun modern life itself! Apple are a big enough customer to demand improvements however.

And I don't trust a single thing that Foxconn are saying. Like all corporations they just have themselves in mind.

[Zoolook]

Originally Posted by Quadra 610

Apple can't babysit its suppliers.

And it really isn't that easy to open up shop in the US. Not so easy to afford anymore. Powerful unions made sure of that.

I'm not exactly a big fan of unions myself, but there is some irony in your comment. The reason unions existed in the first place was to ensure basic human rights and prevent this kind of thing happening.

By the way, this is not limited to Apple or even China. South America is notorious for this kind of thing happening as well, Coca-Cola amongst others have an appalling track record of human right abuses in some countries.

[tcphoto]

Amazing, a man's life is worth $44K and a top of the line notebook. If this man's history was so questionable, why would they trust him with such an important prototype? Something stinks and it isn't the workers who are forced to work overtime with no compensation.

[jasenj1]

Unfortunately, if we were to dig into other manufacturers' practices in China I doubt we'd find much difference. As others have pointed out, China does not care for its workers at anywhere near a level we would consider humane in the USA or Europe - that's why manufacturing has moved there.

I doubt Apple, Dell, Cisco, Nike, etc., etc. really have much say (or want much say) in how their subcontractors treat their employees. As long as products show up, and the subcontractor is not in trouble with their own government, all is well.

- Jasen.

[Wiggin]

Originally Posted by Quadra 610

And it really isn't that easy to open up shop in the US. Not so easy to afford anymore. Powerful unions made sure of that.

Originally Posted by JulesLt

Powerful unions who do things like ensure their workers are paid a minimum wage / for the hours they work / don't work in life-threatening environments, etc.

Powerful unions who ensure that students only get the bare legal minimum of classroom time (5.5 hours/day) so teachers can work fewer hours, or who say that you can't work for a company unless you join our union and pay union dues whether you want to or not, or who protect incompetent pharmacists, who keep screwing up people's perscriptions, because he has seniority.

I have witnessed all of these behaviors. I don't think all union activites are bad, but I view them like religions. They can be a positive influence in our lives. But when they get too much power, they cause more harm than good.

[Kolchak]

Originally Posted by JulesLt

Powerful unions who do things like ensure their workers are paid a minimum wage / for the hours they work / don't work in life-threatening environments, etc.

A "minimum" wage? Try telling that to UAW workers who make somewhat more than a "minimum" wage. I hate to break this to you, but all of the above is handled by the government now. Ever hear of the Fair Labor Standards Act? Or OSHA? Labor unions have outlived their usefulness. All they're good for nowadays is hurting the economy or sucking companies dry. Look at what the unions did to GM. Look at Stella D'Oro, where workers get something like $20 an hour, not exactly minimum wage, and 9 weeks of vacation a year. The union there wasn't satisified and said "strike!" The workers went. The owners announced they are closing up the factory. Big win for the workers, no?

[ktappe]

Originally Posted by Wiggin

Powerful unions who ensure that students only get the bare legal minimum of classroom time (5.5 hours/day) so teachers can work fewer hours

....or so that they actually have time to do research and have info to put into lesson plans that they also need time to prepare. Grading papers also takes quite a while. And then there are all those state and school district forms and meetings they need to attend to. "Fewer hours" indeed.

[Rot'nApple]

Suuurrrrrreeee he had a suspicious history! Let the iPhonegate cover up begin!

I bet employee Sun would have never been called to the "People's House" with the Foxconn CEO and have a beer with Chairman Hu Jintao...

[CanadianMac2008]

Originally Posted by Wiggin

Powerful unions who ensure that students only get the bare legal minimum of classroom time (5.5 hours/day) so teachers can work fewer hours, or who say that you can't work for a company unless you join our union and pay union dues whether you want to or not, or who protect incompetent pharmacists, who keep screwing up people's perscriptions, because he has seniority.

I have witnessed all of these behaviors. I don't think all union activites are bad, but I view them like religions. They can be a positive influence in our lives. But when they get too much power, they cause more harm than good.

Thank you! Here in Canada the unions are way too strong. Just witness the current garbage strike in my city Toronto, where the public workers union is striking because they want 18 sick days to carry over to the next year if not used and continuously add up! Meanwhile the economy blows, the city is absolutely disgusting affecting health, tourism and thus jobs. Talk about greed. I think unions have their place but they need to be taken down a notch in North America. I don't think moving assembly lines here would really solve anything. Moving more manfacturing over to robotic lines on the other hand might be a decent idea. But unions? Yeah they're over rated. I've belonged to a few and didn't really receive any benefit, while being forced to be a member and pay dues. Stupid.

[Olternaut]

$44,000 to the family? A freaking macbook for the girlfriend? This is nightmarishly evil disgusting stuff people.
It would be interesting to see if the countries around the world would be still pressured to do business with China if China dropped the act and started mistreating their employees openly.
Some whippings here, some public execution of workers on the job there....you know...to keep them in line and get productivity back up.

I'll bet some politicians would voice outrage.......but nothing is done about it.

[BuzDots]

Unions need to die a vicious death. They have been one of the biggest parties in the downward spiral of the economic system in this country.

Greed, entitlement & self justification - not to mention the MAIN REASON U.S. jobs have been exported to other countries. Hell, what did we expect?

[DoctorBenway]

Originally Posted by PG4G

Chinese "honesty" doesn't really convince me - from the Government, or from their businesses. They are both of a country and culture where they say one thing, and do something totally different.

It's amusing when people don't know the difference between China and Taiwan.



hint: Foxconn is in Taiwan - not mainland China. Every single post about Chinese workers and the govt - is about as relevant as talking about freaking UGANDA in this instance. Can you find Taiwan on a map? It's another country with it's own govt "and stuff"

[AjitMD]

Apple like many US companies are making a strategic error in outsourcing their operations to China and other such countries. Aside from the moral aspects of using slave labor, we are transfering key technology, manufacturing expertise, capital and most important jobs out of our country. This trend creates huge supply chains that allow the creation of knock-offs and later competing products. It has been a giant sucking sound for our jobs, tax revenues and technology. A lot of this technology, particularly in semiconductors, etc was developed at tax payer expense.

Most of mass manufacturing - actually all - in Apple products can be automated. The trade-off in the cost of capital versus labor is actually favorable, especially with the interest rates being so low. Add the strategic implications and it is really compelling, especially of corporations take a long term view. This kind of manufacturing can be located in states in the US that have dirt cheap land, electric power, no state income taxes, low cost of labor... like in the south.

Tax policy has to change to keep companies from using transfer pricing to avoid/defer US taxes.... while lowering US corporate taxes and allowing the companies to expense, rather than capitalize hi tech investments for tax purposes. The misguided policies of the previous administrations have to be changed to favor US industry and employment. Ditch WTO and NAFTA. We need to play hardball in international commerce. We can do without slave labor... just as the US did after the Civil War.

[technohermit]

Originally Posted by Kolchak

A "minimum" wage? Try telling that to UAW workers who make somewhat more than a "minimum" wage. I hate to break this to you, but all of the above is handled by the government now. Ever hear of the Fair Labor Standards Act? Or OSHA? Labor unions have outlived their usefulness. All they're good for nowadays is hurting the economy or sucking companies dry. Look at what the unions did to GM. Look at Stella D'Oro, where workers get something like $20 an hour, not exactly minimum wage, and 9 weeks of vacation a year. The union there wasn't satisified and said "strike!" The workers went. The owners announced they are closing up the factory. Big win for the workers, no?

I think what he meant was China's workers need unions, just like we did in the US. Our unions have made plenty of mistakes to warrant their demise, but in our case the government has stepped in with laws based on worker's rights. China has no such effort as of yet, and it will take sit-ins, strikes and protests to help them make their stand.
Unfortunately, their government will kill many of them when they try it. It's a little different, but ultimately if they want change it will have to be.

[al_bundy]

Originally Posted by AjitMD

Apple like many US companies are making a strategic error in outsourcing their operations to China and other such countries. Aside from the moral aspects of using slave labor, we are transfering key technology, manufacturing expertise, capital and most important jobs out of our country. This trend creates huge supply chains that allow the creation of knock-offs and later competing products. It has been a giant sucking sound for our jobs, tax revenues and technology. A lot of this technology, particularly in semiconductors, etc was developed at tax payer expense.

Most of mass manufacturing - actually all - in Apple products can be automated. The trade-off in the cost of capital versus labor is actually favorable, especially with the interest rates being so low. Add the strategic implications and it is really compelling, especially of corporations take a long term view. This kind of manufacturing can be located in states in the US that have dirt cheap land, electric power, no state income taxes, low cost of labor... like in the south.

Tax policy has to change to keep companies from using transfer pricing to avoid/defer US taxes.... while lowering US corporate taxes and allowing the companies to expense, rather than capitalize hi tech investments for tax purposes. The misguided policies of the previous administrations have to be changed to favor US industry and employment. Ditch WTO and NAFTA. We need to play hardball in international commerce. We can do without slave labor... just as the US did after the Civil War.

almost every electronic gizmo today, the value is in the software. sure FoxConn can sell a knock off hardware identical cell phone in the US, but they can't sell it with the iphone software which is why people buy it

[8CoreWhore]

If he had a history of losing products, they would've fired him earlier.

[8CoreWhore]

Originally Posted by technohermit

I think what he meant was China's workers need unions, just like we did in the US. Our unions have made plenty of mistakes to warrant their demise, but in our case the government has stepped in with laws based on worker's rights. China has no such effort as of yet, and it will take sit-ins, strikes and protests to help them make their stand.
Unfortunately, their government will kill many of them when they try it. It's a little different, but ultimately if they want change it will have to be.

"...warrant their demise..."? I suppose the military and congress should be eliminated too, based on your reasoning. Unions are its members... it's workers that say, "I won't be your fucking slave!" Now duck back behind your cubicle.

[Cubert]

China has a minimum wage? I bet it's bread and water.

[AjitMD]

Before the Civil War - may even after - we had slavery in the US for economic reasons. The South, that was dependent on agriculture and cheap labor thought they could not keep their "way of life" without slavery. In the end, mechanization of agriculture proved to be a big boom for the American agriculture. Now, we use outsourcing to exploit foreign labor that works in conditions and wages that would put management in prison in the US.

There are a lot of excuses for this. Companies like GE, IBM, Intel, Cisco, Apple, GM, F, etc have benefited over the short term... but over the long term it is a killer for the US economy. India and China barely knew how to built an automobile 30 years ago. After the fall of the Soviet Empire, it was Open Sesame and our tech got transfered wholesale along with capital. That was the chicken that laid the Golden Eggs... the hallmark of our success. As for labor, they are getting just smart and more productive than us... thanks to our transfer of know how. WTO and NAFTA just greased the way for the giant sucking sound of the American jobs leaving the US. Actually a certain short guy with big ears saw this coming almost 20 years ago.

Talk about giving away the rope that is hanging us economically.

[wraithofwonder]

Originally Posted by Kolchak

A "minimum" wage? Try telling that to UAW workers who make somewhat more than a "minimum" wage..

Kolchak, to even the most casual observer such as myself, JulesLt obviously meant that a union makes sure that everyone gets a baseline wage they have a chance of living on and not the federally or state mandated minimum wage you took his mention to mean. $20 an hour is ~$40,000/year, try raising a family on it. How dare people for expecting their hard work to result in something they can live off of.

Originally Posted by AjitMD

... thanks to our transfer of know how.

And lack of any real effort on our part to replace that lost know how. Just look at our schools. We could do something about them, we could change how they're funded so they can all be funded adequately, rethink the whole curriculum, etc. Modernize everything. Do something that won't destroy a child's natural love of learning like our current setup does now. But there's so many competing interests, which is fine except, very few of them are honest. *sigh*

Originally Posted by 8CoreWhore

If he had a history of losing products, they would've fired him earlier.

Holy crap, logic!

[Wiggin]

Originally Posted by ktappe

....or so that they actually have time to do research and have info to put into lesson plans that they also need time to prepare. Grading papers also takes quite a while. And then there are all those state and school district forms and meetings they need to attend to. "Fewer hours" indeed.

I'm not saying teachers shouldn't be paid a good wage. I am very familiar with what teaching entails, having been a teacher in grad school and knowing many k-12 teachers. And yet I can't help wondering how I had 7-hour school days when I was a kid, and now there are schools with only 5.5 hour days (8:30 - 2:00). All as the US falls further and further behind in education. Yes, teachers work beyond the official school hours, but you are also working 9-months out of the year. I'm all for raising teacher's salaries to get more classroom time. But on the condition that we can get rid of the bad teachers who are currently protected by union seniority.

Originally Posted by technohermit

I think what he meant was China's workers need unions, just like we did in the US. Our unions have made plenty of mistakes to warrant their demise, but in our case the government has stepped in with laws based on worker's rights. China has no such effort as of yet, and it will take sit-ins, strikes and protests to help them make their stand.
Unfortunately, their government will kill many of them when they try it. It's a little different, but ultimately if they want change it will have to be.

Despite my views of unions in the US, I agree that China needs workers unions. In the early day of unions in the US, they were a very positive force, driving not only change in the workplace but also improving the laws to protect all workers. That is a good thing. But there are many examples in the US of unions which have gotten too powerful and they are no better than the companies they are supposedly protecting the workers from.

[anakin1992]

so what are the differences?

Originally Posted by DoctorBenway

It's amusing when people don't know the difference between China and Taiwan.



hint: Foxconn is in Taiwan - not mainland China. Every single post about Chinese workers and the govt - is about as relevant as talking about freaking UGANDA in this instance. Can you find Taiwan on a map? It's another country with it's own govt "and stuff"

[chronster]

Foxconn seems to be digging themselves deeper. They might as well say something like "iphone is serious business" and move on.

Originally Posted by anakin1992

so what are the differences?

Yeah DoctorBenway, please educate us on the key differences between Chinese workers vs Taiwanese workers, their rights, and their work conditions.

[anakin1992]

apple is not the first one to assemble their products in china, and they might be forced to do so because china manufacturing power includes chips, assembly, services to any types of manufacturing activities. apple needs the parts from various vendors: cpu, connectors, pcb boards, capacitors, etc. they are all made in china and can be available easily locally to foxconn or any assemblers. if apple wants to move back their product assembly to US, they have to move back each and every of them. the cost is just prohibitive for any one.

this has nothing to do with totalitarian aspect of china. foxconn has been a major player in manufacturing market for many years for western companies. they should have a better policy and treatment to their employees. being in china does not allow them to relax their policy.

Originally Posted by Mac Voyer

As my brother used to say, "If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas." This sort of press is just the price of doing business in China. It is naive to think that work conditions and human rights would be the same in a factory in China as it is in America. That is why companies do business there in the first place. If Apple wanted to make sure that all employees were treated with respect and dignity with a decent wage for work ratio, they would build the products in America. This is the result of saving money at any cost.

This is the inevitable conclusion of lying down with a totalitarian state. Just ask Google.

[anakin1992]

how could you possibly conclude that big picture? are you brainwashed too much by your ausie tv news? well, profiling is so easy these days, as i guess. here is my profiling:
i love poisonous wild animals and unfortunately australia has the most of deadly ones. i keep telling my friends to avoid visiting australia because of these devil killers. i just can not believe how people could live ever in australia. me or my...

Originally Posted by PG4G

Perhaps. But there is very little transparency here.

In America, or Australia where I live, someone would take a picture of how things are, and it would be all over the news, and the government would regulate and actively control and enforce law.

China is different. There is no accountability (or very little) to hold a company to the law. And China will actively ignore the law if it works to their own benefit. They're not worried about their employee's working conditions. They're only worried about their "bigger picture" - how China can succeed as an economic superpower.