Apple joins Blu-Ray Disc Association Board

[ipodandimac]

Apple is on-board with Blu-ray now. Not really a surprise, but I imagine a huge blow to HD-DVD.

link

I put this in future hardware because I remember Blu-ray threads being in here. With the new shufflings, by all means move to the Insider if that's a the better fit.

[cubist]

Great news!

[sCreeD]

Well not too surprising what with Sony leading the pack, but...

I wish they would have just sat back and let the rest of the industry sort it out. With H.264 in both standards, Apple could have won either way. (Actually they still could to a lesser extent).

Anyway... I call for the first Blu-Ray drive in a Mac at MWSF '06.

Screed ...beware the ides of Betamax...

[AppleInsider]

The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) today announced that Apple will become a member of the consortium’s Board of Directors. Apple has been a leader in driving consumer adoption of DVD authoring since January 2001, with the introduction of its SuperDrive, the industry’s first high-volume CD- and DVD-burning drive, and its iDVD and DVD Studio Pro software applications. Apple is also helping bring High Definition (HD) to market with a complete line of HD content creation tools for consumers and professionals alike including iMovie HD, Final Cut Express HD and Final Cut Pro HD editing software. Additionally, QuickTime 7, expected for release alongside Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger," will feature the MPEG developed H.264 Advanced Video Codec (AVC) which has been adopted for high definition DVDs. The BDA was created to broaden support for Blu-ray Disc—the next generation optical disc for storing High Definition movies, photos and other digital content. Blu-ray Discs will have five times larger capacity than today's DVDs, with a single-layer Blu-ray Disc holding up to 25 gigabytes of data and a double-layer Blu-ray Disc holding up to 50 gigabytes of data. Current DVDs hold 4.7 gigabytes on single-layer discs and 8.5 gigabytes on dual-layer discs.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[onlooker]

I think blue ray is almost out of it. HD-DVD is an easier identity to name a High Definition DVD for consumers to begin with, and there is a 75% vs. 25% of DVD player makers going with HD so far. Sony has influence, and partners that can help it appear as a 50/50 split in the end, but this is going to be a battle just to keep it going IMO. (It's beta2)
I thought it would have been a better idea to merge the better features of both technologies into one with this whole HD, and large capacity DVD push, but now it's their game.

[hmurchison]

Computer hardware support will have very little inital impact on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.

Content is paramount and whoever comes the market with the best and bountiful titles at the best pricing will assume the lead. HD-DVD has already announced the pending availability of 89 titles. Blu-Ray group hasn't answered yet.

The advantages seem to be

Blu-Ray- 25GB Single Layer 50GB Dual layer. 72Mbps 2x BD recording.

HD-DVD- Presumed lower pressing costs. Name. 20GB HD-DVD recording Single Layer, 32GB recordable Dual Layer.

I have no doubt that eventually we'll have the option to support both units. The whole jumping on board is for show.

[hmurchison]

Merge threads please.

[sCreeD]

Reference: Howstuffworks.com

Screed

[onlooker]

Originally posted by sCreeD
Reference: Howstuffworks.com

Screed

Great link. Blue Ray is the superior format, but HD-DVD has a lot of support, because they can continue to use existing technology to create HD-DVD's

Ultimately, which format prevails will have a lot to do with its backers. HD-DVD has the DVD Forum behind it: a consortium of 230 consumer-electronics and entertainment companies, as well as movie studios New Line, Paramount, Universal and Warner Bros. Plus, Microsoft plans to support HD-DVD with its next Windows operating system, code-named Longhorn. Blu-ray has more than 10 of the top electronics companies behind it, plus the support of Columbia TriStar, Disney and MGM studios. Also, it has been rumored that the new PlayStation 3 game system will support Blu-ray.

It's the 230 consumer-electronics and entertainment companies that bug me. I would obviously prefer Blue ray even though it is more expensive to create,, and the discs will be a bit more expensive. But again. Less expensive has it's advantages. That little read actually changed my mind a bit, and I hope there is a market for both now, and there will be players that can play both formats. Because that would be the optimum situation IMO.

[monkeyastronaut]

In the end, the same thing that happened with the whole DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM will happen again.

Manufacturers will just start making players capable of playing both formats when it becomes affordable and the format will become irrelevant.

[CodeWarrior]

There's a pretty big list of Heavy Hitters behind Blu-Ray:
Its Board of Directors consists of Apple; Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corporation; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; TDK Corporation; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television

Microsoft, ATI, and NVidia are also supporting Blu-Ray.

That's very powerful group.

I do wish they could have come out with a single standard. I guess it's like DVD-/+ all over again.

[hmurchison]

Yeah that's a big list but none of those companies can offer me the content.

HD-DVD has

New Line Cinema
Warner Brothers
Paramount
Universal

Wow that's a lot of potential movies. Enough to keep the format alive and well for some time.

Frankly the only thing I see Dell, HP, Apple and other resellers benefitting Blu-Ray is for backup solutions and that market will be rather limited.

[sCreeD]

"none" is a little strong. If Sony Corp. is in that means Sony Pictures. Fox is there and Walt Disney. And since Apple is now on the board that means Steve has blessed it and therefore Pixar is guaranteed to be a content provider.

So that's not none.

But the providers you listed is indeed a lot.

Screed

[monkeyastronaut]

Hmmm but PlayStation 3 and possibly X-box 2 will use Blu-ray... that's a lot of content too. I think they will both be fairly popular among consumers.

[hmurchison]

Originally posted by monkeyastronaut
Hmmm but PlayStation 3 and possibly X-box 2 will use Blu-ray... that's a lot of content too. I think they will both be fairly popular among consumers.

Microsoft has thrown its initial weight behind HD-DVD. If the XBox2 comes out it's likely to utilize HD-DVD now.

Longhorn to support HD-DVD

Now THAT is a lot more powerful statement than Apple joining the BR BoD due to the immense sales of PCs.

I plan on having both formats. Perhaps a PS3 for BD-ROM support and a HD-DVD player. I'm hoping there is nothing artificially limiting the possibility of a Universal player being made. That's the only win/win solution for us right now.

[nathan22t]

Yeah with Fox... Star Wars on BR would hit pretty hard.

[Matsu]

Is HD-DVD a red-laser product?

What are the physical characteristics of HD DVD vs. blue-ray disc ?

[onlooker]

Originally posted by Matsu
Is HD-DVD a red-laser product?

What are the physical characteristics of HD DVD vs. blue-ray disc ?

That's a google question mats.

[hmurchison]

Let's look at what we know to be coming late this year early 2006. I'll highlight the movies I think are very popular.

Paramount HD-DVD

New Titles
The Manchurian Candidate
Spongebob Squarepants
Elizabethtown
Coach Carter
The Italian Job
School of Rock
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

Catalog Titles
Forrest Gump
Braveheart
Ghost
Grease
Mission Impossible 2
Black Rain
Save the Last Dance
Sleepy Hollow
U2: Rattle and Hum
Vanilla Sky
Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
Star Trek: First Contact
We Were Soldiers


Universal HD-DVD

New Titles
The Bourne Supremacy
The Chronicles of Riddick
Van Helsing

Catalog Titles
Apollo 13
U-571
12 Monkeys
Dune
The Thing
End of Days
Backdraft
Waterworld
The Bone Collector
Spy Game
Pitch Black
Conan the Barbarian
Dante's Peak

Warner Bros/HBO/New Line HD-DVD

New & Catalog Titles
Above the Law
Alexander
Angels in America (HBO)
Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery (New Line)
Batman Begins
Blade (New Line)
Catwoman
Contact
Constantine
Charley and the Chocolate Factory
Dark City (New Line)
The Dukes of Hazzard
Eraser
Executive Decision
Final Destination (New Line)
Friday (New Line)
From the Earth to the Moon (HBO)
The FugitiveGothika
Hard to Kill
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
House of Wax (2005)
The Last Samurai
The Mask (New Line)
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
Maverick
Million Dollar Baby
The Music Man
Mystic River
Next of Kin
North by Northwest
Ocean's Eleven
Ocean's Twelve
Passenger 57
The Perfect Storm
The Phantom of the Opera (2004)
The Player (New Line)
The Polar Express
Red Planet
Rush Hour (New Line)
Se7en (New Line)
Soldier
The Sopranos (HBO)
Spawn (New Line)
Swordfish
Troy
Under Siege
U.S. Marshals
Wild Wild West

[snoopy]

Here is a rather long analysis of HD, which includes the optical media. This author rates the HD-DVD format at only 15 GB, which may just be enough for a feature length movie, but not much else. If true, Sony's Blu-Ray appears to have a big advantage. HD-DVD must go to dual layer to compete with Blu-Ray's capacity. It also mentions Columbia and MGM as studios that will go with Blu-Ray. I hope I'm remembering these details correctly.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03...hdtv_analysis/

I also read, somewhere else, that the only advantage of HD-DVD is that optical disks can be produced on the same manufacturing equipment as conventional DVDs. Blu-Ray requires investment in new equipment. If Sony and others want Blu-Ray to take off, they need to build new, high capacity plants to produce their disks ASAP. Both formats use a blue laser and require purchase of a new optical disk player to view HD movies. However, the new players will also take existing DVDs. I guess they will have both red and blue lasers.

I don't think we can compare Blu-Ray to Beta tapes. Sony was by itself on that one, and only Sony made VCRs for the Beta format. It looks like Sony learned a lesson and has now solid backers for Blu-Ray. It will not be a proprietary format.

[nagromme]

FYI, lots of info here:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/

Blu-ray Discs are called BD's:

BD-ROM - read-only format for software, games and movie distribution.
BD-R - recordable format for HDTV recording and PC data storage.
BD-RE - rewritable format for HDTV recording and PC data storage.

Anyway, if HD-DVD turns out to ALSO be important, it's easy for Apple to support that option too. BTO if it's that popular, or via 3rd-party drives if it's a niche.

I'm glad Apple went with the higher-capacity format--these things are for data, not just movies.

I hope Apple doesn't use the term "BluperDrive" though.

[onlooker]

As I just read a post, or two above that Blue-Ray players will be able to play old DVD's plus Blue-Ray DVD I think there is a chance these will also be able to play HD-DVD with out much of a hassle. (probably soon after it's release)
This is it's biggest selling point to be able to play all three formats, and obviously the only to play the higher capacity Blue-Ray. Smart move on Apple's part originally at MWSF to announce their support of Blue-Ray, but joining the board will make Blue-Ray more attractive to onlookers. (no pun intended)

[yoda_four]

Originally posted by hmurchison
Microsoft has thrown its initial weight behind HD-DVD. If the XBox2 comes out it's likely to utilize HD-DVD now.

Longhorn to support HD-DVD

Now THAT is a lot more powerful statement than Apple joining the BR BoD due to the immense sales of PCs.

I plan on having both formats. Perhaps a PS3 for BD-ROM support and a HD-DVD player. I'm hoping there is nothing artificially limiting the possibility of a Universal player being made. That's the only win/win solution for us right now.

Neither format may join the XBOX 360

[hmurchison]

Yoda,

I think Microsoft is messing up there. If a PS3 is affordable and support Blu-Ray movies then hmurchison is buying a PS3.

I can understand MS wanting to keep things under cost though.

[onlooker]

I'll be buying both no matter what. Both systems are going to kick ass. But XBOX has some titles that are just too much to pass on.

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally posted by CodeWarrior
There's a pretty big list of Heavy Hitters behind Blu-Ray:
Its Board of Directors consists of Apple; Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corporation; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; TDK Corporation; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television

Microsoft, ATI, and NVidia are also supporting Blu-Ray.

That's very powerful group.

I do wish they could have come out with a single standard. I guess it's like DVD-/+ all over again.

This is the key list so far.

Why? Without the mechanisms to run the DVDs (i.e., DVD players, burners, so on and so forth) that are all the major players listed above content producers don't hold shit in the way of power on this issue.

The same machines they use to encode these DVDs require computers with operating systems to do so.

Windows Longhorn won't see the light of day until 2007 and with all the fuckups regarding WinFS and major performance bottlenecks of Avalon it could be even later.

OS X 10.4.9 will be out before Longhorn and with it's native Blue-Ray Disk support, built-in I suspect a lot of content producers will be utilizing Apple's soon to be announced updated suite of HD tools.

All the major home DVD player makers are supporting Blue-Ray.

So let's see who will budge, eh? Care to wager the Producers don't have as deep of pockets? Afterall, the machine makers don't just make DVD players.

As was mentioned, Sony is huge into Movies, Television, Video Games and Music. Disney is more than just cartoons since it owns several other mainstream studios. The same goes for FOX.

Time Warner will cave first since it's stock hovering at almost $18/share hasn't done shit in 4 years and with their fiduciary responsibilities of serving its stock holders you bet either someone gets fired or makes the decision to join in with Blue-Ray.

With PS/3 coming out way ahead of XBox-2 Sony will only widen it's gap.

So far, MSFT (since I can verify this with the 10-Q) continues to lose hundreds of millions, per quarter, on the XBox. Having suffered over $2 Billion in losses on the XBox it will only widen when the PS/3 is released.

Gates will wish he had allowed the DOJ to break the company up into 3 or 4 separate corporations--the stock is so heavily saturated it's only providing dividends and absolutely no capital gains for the past 3 years. It won't improve either.

Last 5 year ride:

http://money.excite.com/jsp/ct/bigch...FT&chartdate=7

It's great if you are Bill Gates, but not if you want to make money on Capital Gains.

DELL is targeting $80 Billion/year future revenue sales. That means they must get more heavily into Consumer Electronics. They have lots of clout.

2007 is the transition year for HDTV across the U.S. Video Card Manufacturers will become important providers of chipsets in these systems pushing much higher resolution content. Nice to see they already back the standard with more options.

[blue2kdave]

Is there any indication what the Adult film industry is backing? BIggest indicator will be there. I am not kidding.

[hmurchison]

Originally posted by blue2kdave
Is there any indication what the Adult film industry is backing? BIggest indicator will be there. I am not kidding.

Hmmmm "Blue Movies" on "Blu-Ray"?

I'd suppose many will choose the cheapest option which could be HD-DVD. Blu-Ray's "size" advantage may not be enough for the Adult Film industry to achieve appropriate market "penetration". Size does matter though and with proper duplication Blu-Ray may be able to get over the "hump" and achieve "climatic" sales.

[onlooker]

Originally posted by blue2kdave
Is there any indication what the Adult film industry is backing? BIggest indicator will be there. I am not kidding.

Funny. I think that's a bad indicator. It depends if they even bother to board it this early. Most people will continue to use a regular DVD player for years after, and if you recall adult film never fully made it to DVD right away anyway. It's only been like 2 years since they all new titles went to DVD. I think they will wait it out, and see what every body has before they jump on any bandwagon.

[rampancy]

Originally posted by monkeyastronaut
In the end, the same thing that happened with the whole DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM will happen again.

Manufacturers will just start making players capable of playing both formats when it becomes affordable and the format will become irrelevant.

Something I caught from the MacObserver article on this was this interesting tidbit:

One way of bringing both groups together would be a technological solution. Japanese company JVC unveiled at CES a non-recordable hybrid disc featuring an integration of HD DVD/Blue-ray formats that could prove to be the answer. The new DVD has three layers, dual DVD-layers topped by a 25GB high-definition Blue-ray layer for a total of 33.5GB capacity. JVC said it is working on a four-layer disc providing two Blue-ray layers and two DVD layers for a total of 58.5GB of storage capacity.

Yeah, it was just a demo, but I agree that this points to a future more like DVD +/- rather than VHS versus Betamax. If Apple goes with technology like this in the future it won't matter either way if one format "wins" over the other.

[Telomar]

Originally posted by blue2kdave
Is there any indication what the Adult film industry is backing? BIggest indicator will be there. I am not kidding.

Big studios want Blu-Ray and small studios are tending to prefer HD-DVD but it's purely a cost issue there. As an aside the porn industry is one of the more eager areas to adopt HD.

You can actually just google the topic and find some stuff on it.

[RolandG]

My take on it: We will see a development similar to the DVD+/-R(W) issue and in the home DVD-player area. Sooner or later devices will support all available standards as that is what the consumer wants - insert a disc and don't care about the format.

The fact that Apple joined the BluRay-forum raises an important question concerning future Apple hardware/software developments:

- Content is to be kept copy protected all the way from the drive to the display. This commands for HDCP compliant graphics cards and displays.

- They also need to implement provisions into the OS.

Apple needs to ship HDCP-compliant display as soon as possible as customers would be upset if they waited until the last minute. Do the HD-capable CinemaDisplays allready support it?

[vroem]

For me, the big unanswered question is:

Will the next gen players support HD video on regular old DVDs? From a technical perspective this is perfectly possible (the new HD/AVC video has about the same datarate as the old SD/MPEG-2).

I think this is a very important question for Apple since all their video software already supports HD (hell, even iMovie does, I don't think there is any alternative that beats Apple on this one.) If the new BR players would also play DVD's with HD content burnt with your Mac, that would save Apple months (years) from fully entering the HD market.

Of course Hollywood doesn't want this for obvious reasons. (People would start ripping DVDs to CDs in AVC )

[onlooker]

Originally posted by vroem
For me, the big unanswered question is:

Will the next gen players support HD video on regular old DVDs? From a technical perspective this is perfectly possible (the new HD/AVC video has about the same datarate as the old SD/MPEG-2).

I think this is a very important question for Apple since all their video software already supports HD (hell, even iMovie does, I don't think there is any alternative that beats Apple on this one.) If the new BR players would also play DVD's with HD content burnt with your Mac, that would save Apple months (years) from fully entering the HD market.

Of course Hollywood doesn't want this for obvious reasons. (People would start ripping DVDs to CDs in AVC )

Data rate is the same, but how much data is in a single HD frame vs. a below 480 frame? You'll only get 1 frame per 4 (approx)

That last of what you said hardly matters because it's not the fact that the movies are HD or not. You've been able to rip movies from day one anyway. Giving them the HD moniker wont matter.
By law your able to backup your DVD's in the US, and that is why there is no way for hollywood, or anyone to prohibit it. They know the lawsuits will come flowing in, and they have never won on this issue AFAIK.
If Apple prohibited it they could, and would be sued too.

[DaveLee]

Originally posted by onlooker
Funny. I think that's a bad indicator. It depends if they even bother to board it this early. Most people will continue to use a regular DVD player for years after, and if you recall adult film never fully made it to DVD right away anyway. It's only been like 2 years since they all new titles went to DVD. I think they will wait it out, and see what every body has before they jump on any bandwagon.

I think the porn industry will jump on any technology that offers a big jump in errr... higher definition as soon as they possibly can. They did with VHS and I am pretty sure with DVD (I think it was porn that drove a lot of the early adoption of DVD actually). DVD offered much more capacity, much higher quality and the addition of multiple angles and perfect freeze frame was also important. It will be the same with the two formats of HD.

Never underestimate the power of Jenna...

[Matsu]

If they're both blue laser products, and then we're really only talking about the difference between 20 and 30GB or 30 and 40GB, I don't see major quality differences being the deciding factor.

There was a scheme to put HD resolutions (highly compressed) onto regular old red laser DVDs, that's what I had referred to before, and I could definitely see huge problems with artifacting there, but not if it's just a few GB between friends. It's more likely that observers are "seeing" what they're "reading" on the spec sheet.

More improtant to the success of either format will be openness, timing, and content. Who gets the most studios on board early, and has affordable players out early, and doesn't antagonize consumers with undue protection schemes, that's the winner...

[hmurchison]

Apple needs to ship HDCP-compliant display as soon as possible as customers would be upset if they waited until the last minute. Do the HD-capable CinemaDisplays allready support it?

Nope. But I think the industry is going to move to HDMI for computer connections. Silicon Image just announced HDMI for computers with HDCP. I expect that in a year we'll see the migration begin from DVI to HDMI.

There was a scheme to put HD resolutions (highly compressed) onto regular old red laser DVDs, that's what I had referred to before, and I could definitely see huge problems with artifacting there,

AVC at 10Mbps can do HD on red laser. It won't be as good looking as your HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc but it's definitely doable and not only that but you'll have damn near 2hrs worth of recording on a 8.5GB disc. I'm pretty stoked about AVC.

The more I research things the more I realize that Sony,while giving us great new optical tech, has screwed the consumer again with their self interests.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/4

Hands down the best article you'll read about the two formats. Unbiased and informative.

www.hddvdprg.com check the technology of the HD-DVD format and then ask yourself why such an elegant bridge from SD DVD to HD-DVD is being talked about like it's some bastard inferior format.

The market always decides and usually goes with the cheaper option. HD-DVD will be cheaper and smaller initially. That's where I'd place my money.

[snoopy]

If we get both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats, as so many believe will happen, there is good reason to believe HD-DVD is eventually doomed. The major advantage cited for HD-DVD is cost. However, much of that cost is investment in Blu-Ray manufacturing equipment, which disc producers will have bought no matter which formats wins out eventually. This cost will likely be passed on to consumers of both formats. Business people will want to pay off that new equipment regardless of which format wins.

So, we are left with just the incremental cost difference of producing discs. The cost for extra seconds of production time and coating Blu-Ray discs are likely to be a few pennies. When we consider the advantages of Blu-Ray, even a nickel or dime difference seems small. The cdfreaks.com article points out several Blu-Ray benefits, including much higher data storage, greater transfer rate and durability.

As a last point, I'd like to challenge a statement in the cdfreaks article, which says that DVDs and Blu-Ray discs cannot be made on the same production equipment. Later in the article a hybrid disc for Blu-Ray is mentioned. This hybrid is a double layer DVD (red laser) with a Blu-Ray layer on the surface. The question one must ask is, what happen if we leave off the step that puts on the Blu-Ray layer? Obviously, we then have a double layer DVD! So it seems that this is an area that has not been explored very much yet. Blu-Ray is new technology, and we can expect future engineering advances and cost reductions.

Edit: corrected spelling

[monkeyastronaut]

Hmmm yeah forget PS3 and XBOX, we should all wait and see which format will Peter North and Ron Jeremy use. That'll determine the winner, hehe.

[talksense101]

The whole concept of low cost of manufacturing is a weak argument for the HD_DVD. Mass production will drive down the production cost of any media. Are we going to argue that the cost of these disks are going to be more than VHS tapes? For example, we pay 15$ for a movie DVD while the DVD costs 50cents. I don't think any movie company will blink an eyelid before jacking up the price of a movie BD to 17$ if the cost of manufacture is 2$ for the blank disc.

My vote goes for Blue Ray. More storage capacity is necessary for the multimedia content of the future.