NFL and Apple Offer 2006 NFL Highlights on iTunes

***AppleInsider*** · 09-12-2006, 02:33 PM

The National Football League (NFL) and Apple today announced that they will bring 2006 NFL regular season action to the iTunes Store, offering video downloads of highlights from individual NFL games the day after they are played.

For the first time ever, football fans will be able to download highlights of each NFL regular season game for $1.99 per game, Apple said. Fans may purchase a "Follow Your Team" Season Pass for $24.99 and have game clips from their favorite teams delivered automatically as they become available for viewing on a computer or iPod.

NFL fans will also be able to download NFL Network's NFL GameDay, hosted by Rich Eisen with Steve Mariucci and Deion Sanders. This all-inclusive Sunday night wrap-up show offers the most comprehensive NFL coverage on television, with highlights from every NFL game plus post-game reaction and expert analysis, all for $1.99 per show or $19.99 for a full season.

"We are dedicated to bringing the best of NFL action to NFL fans wherever they are," said Brian Rolapp, NFL vice president of media strategy. "We're convinced offering NFL highlights produced by Emmy Award-winning NFL Films and NFL Network's GameDay on iTunes is a great way for fans to not only follow their team but also experience the NFL as they never have before."

"We're thrilled to bring all the top action from the 2006 NFL season to football fans via iTunes," said Eddy Cue, Apple's vice president of iTunes. "With approximately ten minutes of game highlights from every NFL game, NFL fans will be able to download exclusive highlights that give a unique perspective of each game."

Beginning September 18 and on each Monday thereafter during the regular season, fans will be able to download extensive action from Sunday games on iTunes for $1.99 per game, with Monday night games available on Tuesday. The $24.99 "Follow Your Team" Season Pass allows fans to select any of the 32 NFL teams and have game highlights from each of their 16 games automatically downloaded when they become available the following day. All Week 1 NFL game downloads become available on iTunes on September 18.

The iTunes Store now features over 3.5 million songs, 65,000 podcasts, 20,000 audiobooks, over 5,000 music videos and 220 television shows.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

**melgross** · 09-12-2006, 03:37 PM

Not my thing, but as it's sports, it'll do well.

BlackSummerNight · 09-12-2006, 03:48 PM

I think it's a good idea. I'd love for them to team up with the NFL to offer entire games. Highlights are cool, but for us real fans, we need the entire game.

**melgross** · 09-12-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

I think it's a good idea. I'd love for them to team up with the NFL to offer entire games. Highlights are cool, but for us real fans, we need the entire game.

It would take too long.

monkeyastronaut · 09-12-2006, 06:49 PM

Yeah, it would take too long to download (and watch) but it would be awesome to be able to download all XL superbowls and watch them on your iPod. Full length concerts would be a great idea too.

ebolagp · 09-12-2006, 07:21 PM

not much longer than the movies they want you to download...

monkeyastronaut · 09-12-2006, 07:26 PM

that's right. without commercials, an NFL game should last less than 2 hours. all 4 quarters and whatever they take between plays.

Kishan · 09-12-2006, 08:39 PM

can anyone actually find the NFL highlight shows on iTunes? I searched for "NFL" and couldn't find them.

backtomac · 09-12-2006, 08:46 PM

Desparately seeking content.

a_greer · 09-13-2006, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross

It would take too long.

Not really, Directv does a replay on Monday of all the sunday ticket games sans commercials, halftimes, huddles, time outs, and any non-game play stuff is cut out, they can do this and still show every down and not break the proverbial bank.

a_greer · 09-13-2006, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishan

can anyone actually find the NFL highlight shows on iTunes? I searched for "NFL" and couldn't find them.

Starts Sept 18. sorry, no Manning Bowl keepsake for the ipod

**melgross** · 09-13-2006, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_greer

Not really, Directv does a replay on Monday of all the sunday ticket games sans commercials, halftimes, huddles, time outs, and any non-game play stuff is cut out, they can do this and still show every down and not break the proverbial bank.

But, that's not an internet download.

a_greer · 09-13-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross

But, that's not an internet download.

It would only be an hour long, 4 15 minute quarters: that is not too long, Lost is an hour long and they make plenty of money on that: besides, the bandwidth differance isnt too much to break the bank: Apple buysw bandwidth, Directv has ~6 satalites in orbit, both are huge expences.

Kishan · 09-13-2006, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_greer

Starts Sept 18. sorry, no Manning Bowl keepsake for the ipod

GYAARRRRRGH! Damn you Apple! I am ready for some football!

MacsRbetterthanPC · 09-13-2006, 10:31 AM

Get Us Baseball!!!

a_greer · 09-13-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacsRbetterthanPC

Get Us Baseball!!!

baseball sucks.<ducks>

The real reason you will never see this is that MLBTV.com is so friggen big and MLB gets every penny of that money, they wouldnt dare canabalize it and share profits with others at this point in the game (pun intended)

Truth be told, Selige is the only boss in the entertainment industtry that really seems to get technology, building MLBTV even before iTms, let alone Itunes TV he and the MLB seem to embrase tech, they are everywhere, internet, mobile, satalite radio, ca/sat tv, print, everywhere. .

**melgross** · 09-13-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_greer

It would only be an hour long, 4 15 minute quarters: that is not too long, Lost is an hour long and they make plenty of money on that: besides, the bandwidth differance isnt too much to break the bank: Apple buysw bandwidth, Directv has ~6 satalites in orbit, both are huge expences.

That's true, but just showing the 15 minute quarters takes much longer than 15 minutes apiece. A quarter, you will realise if you watch football, is measured only by the actual play time. But the play time can easily be half the time of the quarter. so many games are easily 2 hours long. That doesn't include the commentary, or for some games, the halftime show, which many people might want as well (for bowl games, etc.).

**melgross** · 09-13-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_greer

baseball sucks.<ducks>

The real reason you will never see this is that MLBTV.com is so friggen big and MLB gets every penny of that money, they wouldnt dare canabalize it and share profits with others at this point in the game (pun intended)

Truth be told, Selige is the only boss in the entertainment industtry that really seems to get technology, building MLBTV even before iTms, let alone Itunes TV he and the MLB seem to embrase tech, they are everywhere, internet, mobile, satalite radio, ca/sat tv, print, everywhere. .

I MUCH prefer baseball to football. But baseball games are undeterminate in their time, and some can be very long indeed.

Of course, baseball games these days are slowed down by the long commercial breaks as well. That was not true earlier. But now, with those long commercials, even in the ballpark, we have to wait until they are finished before the game resumes. At least that could be cut out.

Flounder · 09-13-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross

That's true, but just showing the 15 minute quarters takes much longer than 15 minutes apiece. A quarter, you will realise if you watch football, is measured only by the actual play time. But the play time can easily be half the time of the quarter. so many games are easily 2 hours long. That doesn't include the commentary, or for some games, the halftime show, which many people might want as well (for bowl games, etc.).

Melgross, you're missing the point. DirectTV advertises this. They take out everything but the actual gameplay (in other, when teams are in the huddle and time is actually running off the clock) and the game only takes about 30 minutes to view, and you see every single play.

That would be one sweet iTunes download. I'd gladly shell out $24.95 for a season pass of that for my favorite team. hell, I'd probably shell out $50.

Edit - Maybe I missed your point too, but I still think being able to download every single play of a game off of iTunes would be sweet, and sell like gangbusters.

SpamSandwich · 09-13-2006, 01:52 PM

I might buy the Superbowl versions of the games, but I'd have to have the commercials also.

**melgross** · 09-13-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flounder

Melgross, you're missing the point. DirectTV advertises this. They take out everything but the actual gameplay (in other, when teams are in the huddle and time is actually running off the clock) and the game only takes about 30 minutes to view, and you see every single play.

That would be one sweet iTunes download. I'd gladly shell out $24.95 for a season pass of that for my favorite team. hell, I'd probably shell out $50.

Edit - Maybe I missed your point too, but I still think being able to download every single play of a game off of iTunes would be sweet, and sell like gangbusters.

I do understand what you are saying. Just sell the gameplay. But, I find that to be unsatisfactory. Without the commentary by the announcers, most of the time you won't have any idea as to what's going on. Why was play stopped? Who received a penalty, and how much. Who's in the game, and who's out, and why. Etc. I really don't know how they do that, and make it interesting, and useful.

I'm not saying that they can't, but I just don't see how. I want to watch the entire quarter, officials waving flags and all.

troberts · 09-13-2006, 02:04 PM

I see a lot of potential for football, and sports in general, where iTunes/iPod is concerned. In addition to having highlights and commentaries the NFL should offer downloads that focus on specific types of content.

If you only wanted to see offensive/defensive plays from your team that that is all that would be shown. Same goes for people that like passing/running games, although this download would show plays by both teams.

Another option would be for the camera to be at an angle and distance that would let you follow the person carrying to ball while also letting you see the over-all action of the other players. This would be great for those times when there is a scramble, fumble, or interception.

Taking it to the extreme the NFL, at the end of the season, could even focus on plays involving a specific player, but this would require adding metadata to each play. An example would be "Lynn Swan, home games, 20+ yard gain, getting a touch-down.

a_greer · 09-13-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flounder

Melgross, you're missing the point. DirectTV advertises this. They take out everything but the actual gameplay (in other, when teams are in the huddle and time is actually running off the clock) and the game only takes about 30 minutes to view, and you see every single play.

BINGO...

If you want to see what these look like, just...ahem...search torrents for a game from this week and DL it, BTers dont share the whole 3 hour show whrn this is availible...

***I am not endorcing piracy, the best way to see what I mean is to view one of these programs...If you know someone with D* and ST ask them by all means...or maybe go to a local sports bar and have them put that on for ya if they arent bussy.

a_greer · 09-13-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross

I do understand what you are saying. Just sell the gameplay. But, I find that to be unsatisfactory. Without the commentary by the announcers, most of the time you won't have any idea as to what's going on. Why was play stopped? Who received a penalty, and how much. Who's in the game, and who's out, and why. Etc. I really don't know how they do that, and make it interesting, and useful.

I'm not saying that they can't, but I just don't see how. I want to watch the entire quarter, officials waving flags and all.

Given the choice, I wouldnt mind some of the announcers falling out of their friggen skyboxes...John Maddden, I am looking at you!

these games do have announcer calls from the acctuall CBS/FOX broadcast, as well as all of the graphics: the score, posession, time, play clock, penalty indicators...everything...

**melgross** · 09-13-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_greer

Given the choice, I wouldnt mind some of the announcers falling out of their friggen skyboxes...John Maddden, I am looking at you!

these games do have announcer calls from the acctuall CBS/FOX broadcast, as well as all of the graphics: the score, posession, time, play clock, penalty indicators...everything...

As I said, I haven't seen it, and I'm not saying it is bad. But I like to see the game straight through. Others might not care, and that's their choice.

Flounder · 09-13-2006, 03:02 PM

Ahhh, I hate almost all announcers

It might not be good for casual fans, but hardcore ones would love this. All the plays, one after the other (I've never seen the direcTV thing either, but I wouldn't be suprised if they included the announcment of penalties / instant replay rulings) would be awesome. You could watch plays over and over again, just like coaches, and find out who's doing their job and who isn't.

I want this right now! I've worked myself into a froth just thinking about it.

monkeyastronaut · 09-13-2006, 04:46 PM

john madden and al michaels are my favorite announcer combo ever. on the other hand... come on, Joe Theisman for MNF... pfffftttt my ears are in pain.

a_greer · 09-14-2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyastronaut

john madden and al michaels are my favorite announcer combo ever. on the other hand... come on, Joe Theisman for MNF... pfffftttt my ears are in pain.

I cant stand Madden, he talks as if all of the fans have never seen a game before: an average madden ramble would be something like "What the quarterback was trying to do there was find a man open so he could catch the ball for a first down, but the pocket colapsed so he threw it away" Oddly enough, that is pretty much how my dad explained football to me; WHEN I WAS 5 YEARS OLD!

NO SHIT SHERLOCK! I just saw te friggen play!

Michaels is the one pulling the weight, Madden is a raving loonitic who happened to coach at one point so now he can ramble on aimlessly on national tv...great...

a_greer · 09-14-2006, 12:59 AM

Honestly, the radio announcers are usually best, The two I get here are the Colts Radio Network and WBBM-Bears radio network, those guys can paint a picture of exactly whats going on on the fly, not waisting your time with crap, just telling you what is going on: if oyu must have announcers, put the radio announcers on it...or better yet, no announcers at all, just the statium PA

monkeyastronaut · 09-14-2006, 01:35 AM

i really would prefer announcers than no announcers at all. but you are right about radio announcers, they are probably more skilled at describing the action because TV announcers sometimes take for granted that the viewer is in front of a screen already (well, and i don't blame them, after all we are talking about television) and rely on graphs, screen elements, their yellow pen, onscreen stats, etc. to do their job.

and i still love madden no matter what

just personal preference. i like his rants.

**melgross** · 09-14-2006, 01:53 AM

Announcers have a tougher job than they are given credit for.

Look at our forums. how many times do people come into a thread, and make a statement, or ask a question, that has been discussed to death just one page before? So, some people want to help, and it starts over again.

Announcers have that problem. Not everyone watching is sophisticated enough to see what someone who lives the sport does.

Many people are part time viewers, and need the explanations.

Some may even be that 5 year old, or at least an 8 year old. Not all fathers want to, or are able to, explain what is happening in a game, even if they do understand.

It's hard to balance out the explanations to those who need basic stuff, with the more esoteric comments that sports fanatics want to hear. The popularity of the show tells the story.

Flounder · 09-14-2006, 07:54 AM

a_greer, I agree with you. I often watch games with the TV muted and the radio on.

a_greer · 09-14-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross

Announcers have that problem. Not everyone watching is sophisticated enough to see what someone who lives the sport does.

Many people are part time viewers, and need the explanations.
.

I dont really see that applying for any game but the super bowl, but for the sake of discussion lets say you are right...

Why not have 2 audio feeds (just like they do with SAP for spanish so illegals can enjoy our TV shows too) one feed for N00bs and one for the people who dont need someone explaining every god-damned thing...

**melgross** · 09-14-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_greer

I dont really see that applying for any game but the super bowl, but for the sake of discussion lets say you are right...

Why not have 2 audio feeds (just like they do with SAP for spanish so illegals can enjoy our TV shows too) one feed for N00bs and one for the people who dont need someone explaining every god-damned thing...

Cost.

a_greer · 09-14-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross

Cost.

Thank God for AM radios and mute buttons...I am defenately getting Serius before next season.

monkeyastronaut · 09-14-2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_greer

I dont really see that applying for any game but the super bowl, but for the sake of discussion lets say you are right...

Why not have 2 audio feeds (just like they do with SAP for spanish so illegals can enjoy our TV shows too) one feed for N00bs and one for the people who dont need someone explaining every god-damned thing...

SAP is not only for illegals.

Kishan · 09-18-2006, 08:19 PM

The NFL highlights are up on iTunes now... Looking at the length of the episodes (8-12 minutes), I am hesitating to get the season pass. Can anyone comment on how satisfying it is to watch just the highlights from the game?

Flounder · 09-18-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishan

The NFL highlights are up on iTunes now... Looking at the length of the episodes (8-12 minutes), I am hesitating to get the season pass. Can anyone comment on how satisfying it is to watch just the highlights from the game?

They are? Where the heck are they? I can't find them for the life of me.....

Kishan · 09-18-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flounder

They are? Where the heck are they? I can't find them for the life of me.....

I just clicked on its banner in the TV shows section. Now that I go back and try to find it, I can't easily navigate to it... good thing that I saved the Vikings season pass into my shopping cart. Its under "2006 NFL Follow Your Team - <your team here>"

Flounder · 09-18-2006, 09:34 PM

ahh, thanks. When I went before I didn't have the big banner at the top.

09-12-2006, 02:33 PM	#1
*AppleInsider* Kasper's Automated Slave Join Date: Nov 1997 Posts: 6,159	NFL and Apple offer 2006 NFL highlights on iTunes The National Football League (NFL) and Apple today announced that they will bring 2006 NFL regular season action to the iTunes Store, offering video downloads of highlights from individual NFL games the day after they are played. For the first time ever, football fans will be able to download highlights of each NFL regular season game for $1.99 per game, Apple said. Fans may purchase a "Follow Your Team" Season Pass for $24.99 and have game clips from their favorite teams delivered automatically as they become available for viewing on a computer or iPod. NFL fans will also be able to download NFL Network's NFL GameDay, hosted by Rich Eisen with Steve Mariucci and Deion Sanders. This all-inclusive Sunday night wrap-up show offers the most comprehensive NFL coverage on television, with highlights from every NFL game plus post-game reaction and expert analysis, all for $1.99 per show or $19.99 for a full season. "We are dedicated to bringing the best of NFL action to NFL fans wherever they are," said Brian Rolapp, NFL vice president of media strategy. "We're convinced offering NFL highlights produced by Emmy Award-winning NFL Films and NFL Network's GameDay on iTunes is a great way for fans to not only follow their team but also experience the NFL as they never have before." "We're thrilled to bring all the top action from the 2006 NFL season to football fans via iTunes," said Eddy Cue, Apple's vice president of iTunes. "With approximately ten minutes of game highlights from every NFL game, NFL fans will be able to download exclusive highlights that give a unique perspective of each game." Beginning September 18 and on each Monday thereafter during the regular season, fans will be able to download extensive action from Sunday games on iTunes for $1.99 per game, with Monday night games available on Tuesday. The $24.99 "Follow Your Team" Season Pass allows fans to select any of the 32 NFL teams and have game highlights from each of their 16 games automatically downloaded when they become available the following day. All Week 1 NFL game downloads become available on iTunes on September 18. The iTunes Store now features over 3.5 million songs, 65,000 podcasts, 20,000 audiobooks, over 5,000 music videos and 220 television shows. [ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

09-12-2006, 03:48 PM	#3
BlackSummerNight Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 535	my first post I think it's a good idea. I'd love for them to team up with the NFL to offer entire games. Highlights are cool, but for us real fans, we need the entire game.

09-12-2006, 07:21 PM	#6
ebolagp Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Greenwich, CT Posts: 28	... not much longer than the movies they want you to download...

09-13-2006, 01:52 PM	#20
SpamSandwich Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 8,456	I might buy the Superbowl versions of the games, but I'd have to have the commercials also. "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground." —Thomas Jefferson Proud AAPL stock owner.

09-13-2006, 03:02 PM	#26
Flounder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lansing Posts: 2,513	Ahhh, I hate almost all announcers It might not be good for casual fans, but hardcore ones would love this. All the plays, one after the other (I've never seen the direcTV thing either, but I wouldn't be suprised if they included the announcment of penalties / instant replay rulings) would be awesome. You could watch plays over and over again, just like coaches, and find out who's doing their job and who isn't. I want this right now! I've worked myself into a froth just thinking about it. A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts

09-12-2006, 03:37 PM	#2
melgross Global Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 19,612	Not my thing, but as it's sports, it'll do well.

09-12-2006, 06:49 PM	#5
monkeyastronaut Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: united mexican states Posts: 1,326	Yeah, it would take too long to download (and watch) but it would be awesome to be able to download all XL superbowls and watch them on your iPod. Full length concerts would be a great idea too.

09-12-2006, 07:26 PM	#7
monkeyastronaut Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: united mexican states Posts: 1,326	that's right. without commercials, an NFL game should last less than 2 hours. all 4 quarters and whatever they take between plays.

09-12-2006, 08:39 PM	#8
Kishan Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 662	can anyone actually find the NFL highlight shows on iTunes? I searched for "NFL" and couldn't find them.

09-12-2006, 08:46 PM	#9
backtomac Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,939	Desparately seeking content.

09-13-2006, 10:31 AM	#15
MacsRbetterthanPC Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 152	Get Us Baseball!!!

09-13-2006, 02:04 PM	#22
troberts Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waynesboro, PA Posts: 637	I see a lot of potential for football, and sports in general, where iTunes/iPod is concerned. In addition to having highlights and commentaries the NFL should offer downloads that focus on specific types of content. If you only wanted to see offensive/defensive plays from your team that that is all that would be shown. Same goes for people that like passing/running games, although this download would show plays by both teams. Another option would be for the camera to be at an angle and distance that would let you follow the person carrying to ball while also letting you see the over-all action of the other players. This would be great for those times when there is a scramble, fumble, or interception. Taking it to the extreme the NFL, at the end of the season, could even focus on plays involving a specific player, but this would require adding metadata to each play. An example would be "Lynn Swan, home games, 20+ yard gain, getting a touch-down.

09-13-2006, 04:46 PM	#27
monkeyastronaut Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: united mexican states Posts: 1,326	john madden and al michaels are my favorite announcer combo ever. on the other hand... come on, Joe Theisman for MNF... pfffftttt my ears are in pain.

09-14-2006, 12:59 AM	#29
a_greer Rev B, Bug Free Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 4,166	Honestly, the radio announcers are usually best, The two I get here are the Colts Radio Network and WBBM-Bears radio network, those guys can paint a picture of exactly whats going on on the fly, not waisting your time with crap, just telling you what is going on: if oyu must have announcers, put the radio announcers on it...or better yet, no announcers at all, just the statium PA You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.

09-14-2006, 01:35 AM	#30
monkeyastronaut Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: united mexican states Posts: 1,326	i really would prefer announcers than no announcers at all. but you are right about radio announcers, they are probably more skilled at describing the action because TV announcers sometimes take for granted that the viewer is in front of a screen already (well, and i don't blame them, after all we are talking about television) and rely on graphs, screen elements, their yellow pen, onscreen stats, etc. to do their job. and i still love madden no matter what just personal preference. i like his rants.

09-14-2006, 01:53 AM	#31
melgross Global Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 19,612	Announcers have a tougher job than they are given credit for. Look at our forums. how many times do people come into a thread, and make a statement, or ask a question, that has been discussed to death just one page before? So, some people want to help, and it starts over again. Announcers have that problem. Not everyone watching is sophisticated enough to see what someone who lives the sport does. Many people are part time viewers, and need the explanations. Some may even be that 5 year old, or at least an 8 year old. Not all fathers want to, or are able to, explain what is happening in a game, even if they do understand. It's hard to balance out the explanations to those who need basic stuff, with the more esoteric comments that sports fanatics want to hear. The popularity of the show tells the story.

09-14-2006, 07:54 AM	#32
Flounder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lansing Posts: 2,513	a_greer, I agree with you. I often watch games with the TV muted and the radio on. A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts

09-18-2006, 08:19 PM	#37
Kishan Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 662	The NFL highlights are up on iTunes now... Looking at the length of the episodes (8-12 minutes), I am hesitating to get the season pass. Can anyone comment on how satisfying it is to watch just the highlights from the game?

09-18-2006, 09:34 PM	#40
Flounder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lansing Posts: 2,513	ahh, thanks. When I went before I didn't have the big banner at the top. A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts

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