iPhone to support third-party Web 2.0 applications

[physguy]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

I agree on the bullshit part. I see this as an Apple concession to give AT&T the restrictions that they want to prevent users from getting VioP over WiFi apps, and to give them a means to push a data plan, because otherwise, you lose your app between access points.

I don't see why Apache on a handheld can be considered a good idea for running a web app as local software.

I don't know how this post got bumped ahead of Ringo's and melgross' posts, the time stamp is an hour off. My computer's time is correct.

I'm also off by 1 hour for some reason.

Why is apache a bad thing? Just wondering? I do all sorts of local support things for myself through my local mysql/apache server and works wonderfully and is stable, and is cross-platform. We did our companies drawing database this was and can install and maintain on MS/Linux/Mac with no issues.

WTF!!! THIS POST IS NOW OFF BY 15 HOURS!!!

[Louzer]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Perhaps you should just read what you quoted a few times. Eventually it should come together.

Sorry, regardless of whether they're running in safari or not, if they have access to 'make phonecalls' or the like, it seems like a nice security hole to me (esp. with a nice nefarious web-app). Unless you're reading things on a completely different plane where you see all and understand all.

Of course, also looking at this stupidity, does this also means that, if you're currently in a location where you do not have wifi or cell access, you have absolutely no access to these apps, nor your data? Seems like the iphone is nothing but an iPod for that 6 hour plane flight.

[physguy]

This is a GREAT strategy when combined with the release of Safari on Windows. This gives a uniform environment for Mac/PC/iPhone for applications that can get there data/support from anywhere on the WEB - ldap, mysql, etc.

[I have no idea how this ended up ahead of the original article??? I posted at about 12:40 PM PDT]

[Jemster]

Yeah I can see how that's really going to work well for those not on high speed networks and those with monthly data allowances...

Am I totally missing something here or is this simply trying to put a marketing spin on "no we won't allow you to develop 3rd party apps on the iPhone"??

So nothing new here... and strangely not a mention of ZFS either ... looks like Steve's sucked some of the helium out of the share prices too...

[AppleInsider]

Presenting at its annual developers conference on Monday, Apple announced that its forthcoming iPhone device will run applications created with Web 2.0 Internet standards when it begins shipping on June 29.

The Cupertino-based company said developers can create Web 2.0 applications which look and behave just like the applications built into iPhone, and which can seamlessly access iPhone’s services, including making a phone call, sending an email and displaying a location in Google Maps.

Third-party applications created using Web 2.0 standards can extend iPhone’s capabilities without compromising its reliability or security, company chief executive Steve Jobs explained. However, they will be forced to run through the iPhones's Safari web browser, not function as standalone applications.

“Developers and users alike are going to be very surprised and pleased at how great these applications look and work on iPhone,” Jobs said. “Our innovative approach, using Web 2.0-based standards, lets developers create amazing new applications while keeping the iPhone secure and reliable.”

Web 2.0-based applications are being embraced by leading developers because they are far more interactive and responsive than traditional web applications, and can be easily distributed over the Internet and painlessly updated by simply changing the code on the developers’ own servers.

The modern web standards also provide secure data access and transactions, like those used with Amazon.com or online banking.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[Sälli]

At first I thought that this meant that there was a small version of apache running on the iPhone, but I guess that is not the case. It would have been nice, though.

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

can be easily distributed over the Internet and painlessly updated by simply changing the code on the developers’ own servers.

[physguy]

Originally Posted by Jemster

Yeah I can see how that's really going to work well for those not on high speed networks and those with monthly data allowances...

Am I totally missing something here or is this simply trying to put a marketing spin on "no we won't allow you to develop 3rd party apps on the iPhone"??

So nothing new here... and strangely not a mention of ZFS either ... looks like Steve's sucked some of the helium out of the share prices too...

I guess I'm just looking a little farther ahead.

1) If you need local data, and that's a large need for the iPhone user base, Apple can just turn on Apache and MySQL (of other DB). The same app runs just fine.

2) Maybe I'm missing something but don't google docs etc. fit these requirements? I love using these apps for small jobs. Don't forget this isn't your GP computer, it is your mobile helper.

3) Google gears also leading to more and more apps.

I think that Apple is again skating to where the puck is going to be.

Regarding the share price that happens every keynote not matter the content - Buy on rumor, Sell on news.

[JeffDM]

I agree on the bullshit part. I see this as an Apple concession to give AT&T the restrictions that they want to prevent users from getting VioP over WiFi apps, and to give them a means to push a data plan, because otherwise, you lose your app between access points.

I don't see why Apache on a handheld can be considered a good idea for running a web app as local software.

I don't know how this post got bumped ahead of Ringo's and melgross' posts, the time stamp is an hour off. My computer's time is correct.

[Louzer]

Originally Posted by melgross

What news?

That's why the price went down.

[auxio]

Originally Posted by melgross

What kind of apps will this allow?

Will we see programs that have nothing to do with the way Safari tools work?

Will we see scientific calculators, real games, book readers, etc?

Or will this lead to a limited set of what can be done?

Yup, I totally agree. iPhone is just a portable Dashboard as far as application developers are concerned.

The only really interesting applications are developed by Apple itself (ie. Mail, Safari, iTunes, iCal).

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by Louzer

So these web apps have access to an iPhones services, but won't compromise the iphone's security?

Perhaps you should just read what you quoted a few times. Eventually it should come together.

[physguy]

Originally Posted by melgross

What news?

Hardware is what makes money for Apple, and there was no hardware announced.

So far this year, starting with Macworld, we've been treated to few significant announcements in that area.

I'm hoping that Apple will be showing new machines when the new chips come out. Otherwise, the stock will continue falling back.

I think you hit is exactly wrt the stock. Hardware announcements were anticipated and none came out. I was hoping for new iMac. Still hoping in the next few weeks.

[FYI using safari 3 - could that be why the timing screwup?]

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by physguy

I'm also off by 1 hour for some reason.

Why is apache a bad thing? Just wondering? I do all sorts of local support things for myself through my local mysql/apache server and works wonderfully and is stable, and is cross-platform. We did our companies drawing database this was and can install and maintain on MS/Linux/Mac with no issues.

A desktop computer would be fine, but a handheld is a lot more limited in terms of computing power, memory and battery life, and a web app is generally interpreted, not compiled. Those points are major downsides of Java, so why this odd workaround to make something that's going to behave just as badly on a handheld?

[Louzer]

Originally Posted by physguy

I think you hit is exactly wrt the stock. Hardware announcements were anticipated and none came out. I was hoping for new iMac. Still hoping in the next few weeks.

[FYI using safari 3 - could that be why the timing screwup?]

I don't know why hardware announcements were expected. Didn't Apple come out and say it was about software?

Oh, and I'm not using safari 3, so I don't think that's it.

[physguy]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

A desktop computer would be fine, but a handheld is a lot more limited in terms of computing power, memory and battery life, and a web app is generally interpreted, not compiled. Those points are major downsides of Java, so why this odd workaround to make something that's going to behave just as badly on a handheld?

In my experience with these apps the heavy lifting - database searches and organization, and rendering - are done by the compiled programs - safari, mysql, apache - and so the speed hit is minimal. Even with php, unless you throw on some pretty intense loops or calculations, its not bad.

[OK just posted from firefox and still the time is screwed up - 1 hour 8 minutes this time]

[Ringo]

This is taking bullshit to a whole new level.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by physguy

I guess I'm just looking a little farther ahead.

1) If you need local data, and that's a large need for the iPhone user base, Apple can just turn on Apache and MySQL (of other DB). The same app runs just fine.

2) Maybe I'm missing something but don't google docs etc. fit these requirements? I love using these apps for small jobs. Don't forget this isn't your GP computer, it is your mobile helper.

3) Google gears also leading to more and more apps.

I think that Apple is again skating to where the puck is going to be.

Regarding the share price that happens every keynote not matter the content - Buy on rumor, Sell on news.

What news?

Hardware is what makes money for Apple, and there was no hardware announced.

So far this year, starting with Macworld, we've been treated to few significant announcements in that area.

I'm hoping that Apple will be showing new machines when the new chips come out. Otherwise, the stock will continue falling back.

[Louzer]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

The Cupertino-based company said developers can create Web 2.0 applications which look and behave just like the applications built into iPhone, and which can seamlessly access iPhone’s services, including making a phone call, sending an email and displaying a location in Google Maps.

Third-party applications created using Web 2.0 standards can extend iPhone’s capabilities without compromising its reliability or security, company chief executive Steve Jobs explained. However, they will be forced to run through the iPhones's Safari web browser, not function as standalone applications.

So these web apps have access to an iPhones services, but won't compromise the iphone's security?

[melgross]

What kind of apps will this allow?

Will we see programs that have nothing to do with the way Safari tools work?

Will we see scientific calculators, real games, book readers, etc?

Or will this lead to a limited set of what can be done?

[TenoBell]

Originally Posted by melgross

What kind of apps will this allow?

Will we see programs that have nothing to do with the way Safari tools work?

Will we see scientific calculators, real games, book readers, etc?

Or will this lead to a limited set of what can be done?

I don't see why everyone is surprised. This is the way I expected to use my iPhone if I get one. I did not necessarily want to download a bunch of apps. I expected to use web apps. Adobe and Google are working on solutions for creating Web 2.o apps. I'm sure over the week Apple will be showing developers how to leverage web apps and the iPhone.

Also there have been several blogs stating that there is no way Apple could create and support a reliable SDK in this short amount of time. The iPhone has a new type of UI and is a first generation product, it would be better for Apple to internally work out development kinks before releasing a general SDK. Of course this does not mean Apple will not release an SDK at some point in the future.

I would imagine web apps are the solution at the moment.

[mrpiddly]

NOW I can Never run Dark Forces on my iPhone


DAMN YOU APPLE, YOU CRUSHED MY HOPES AND DREAMS

[melgross]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

I don't see why everyone is surprised. This is the way I expected to use my iPhone if I get one. I did not necessarily want to download a bunch of apps. I expected to use web apps. Adobe and Google are working on solutions for creating Web 2.o apps. I'm sure over the week Apple will be showing developers how to leverage web apps and the iPhone.

Also there have been several blogs stating that there is no way Apple could create and support a reliable SDK in this short amount of time. The iPhone has a new type of UI and is a first generation product, it would be better for Apple to internally work out development kinks before releasing a general SDK. Of course this does not mean Apple will not release an SDK at some point in the future.

I would imagine web apps are the solution at the moment.

I don't like what I'm hearing about the limitations. Web 2 apps are nice, but if they aren't downloadable to the phone so that they can reside there, they won't be that useful. Can you imagine downloading the app each time you use it? Or having to send back and forth from the website while you are using it?

If we had a fast up and download speed, that might not be too bad, but I don't want everything I do leaving my phone anymore than I want it leaving my computer.

As for the timescale. Jobs said that they were working on the phone for three years. That's planty of time. After all three years is about the time it takes to get one and a half full upgrades to OS X out the door.

The phone SDK is a far simpler thing than ones for OS X would be. there is simply far less hardware to worry about having API's for, among other things.

I read elsewhere today that this just allows Apple to keep the innards of the phone to themselves. After all, they must have an SDK for themselves, or they couldn't write their own apps.

[Sport73]

Apple didn't show it, but I'm willing to bet that the iPhone can tap into the 'remote finder' functionality showcased today, giving you access to your entire desktop via .Mac; so you may end up with all of your Mac apps on your iPhone, in a sense.

[TenoBell]

I don't like what I'm hearing about the limitations. Web 2 apps are nice, but if they aren't downloadable to the phone so that they can reside there, they won't be that useful.

I don't think this is a huge problem if the the material you are working on resides on the phone and can be transfered to a computer.

The phone SDK is a far simpler thing than ones for OS X would be. there is simply far less hardware to worry about having API's for, among other things.

You should read John Siracusa's blog about developing for the iPhone.

He talks about the difference between developing for desktop API's and how different that is from developing for a phone. Then on top of that the iPhone has no windows, close/minimize/zoom widgets, checkboxes, radio buttons, or scroll bars. Which most other phone UI's do have. So that makes development even more tricky.

He suggests that Apple will need to figure out within itself how to best write apps for the UI and that will take some time after its in the wild and people are using it.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by Louzer

…\ does this also means that, if you're currently in a location where you do not have wifi or cell access, you have absolutely no access to these apps, nor your data?

Exactly. The iPhone as Steve said in the very beginning, "it is not a smart phone."

I would suggest that when the link to the keynote is up, take heed. Right now the best I can do is quote Macworld which is as follows:

“We have been trying to come up with a solution to expand the capabilities of iPhone by letting developers write great apps for it, and yet keep the iPhone reliable and secure. and we’ve come up with a very sweet solution,” said Jobs.

This capability is being exposed through the full version of Safari that will run on the iPhone, said Jobs, using “Web 2.0”-style technologies like AJAX that will enable developers to create content that “looks and behaves exactly like apps,” integrated with the iPhone and iPhone services.

“They can make a call, they can send an e-mail, they can look up a location on Google Maps,” Jobs added for emphasis. What’s more, distribution is simple because developers can put them up on their own servers, update the code themselves, and incorporate the built-in security that Web 2.0 applications provide.

“They run securely on the iPhone, so they don’t compromise its reliability or security. And guess what? There’s no [software development kit]. You’ve got everything you need, if you know how to write apps using existing Web standards,” Jobs said.

Apple VP Scott Forstall demonstrated how this can work by showing an Apple directory application that runs in less than 600 lines of code. The application returned a search query from safari into an address book-style card, where the identified user could be called or e-mailed using the built-in services on the iPhone."

As everybody isl talking here, this is a very sweet solution. Revolutionary in more ways than one!

[mrpiddly]

Originally Posted by Sport73

Apple didn't show it, but I'm willing to bet that the iPhone can tap into the 'remote finder' functionality showcased today, giving you access to your entire desktop via .Mac; so you may end up with all of your Mac apps on your iPhone, in a sense.

Lets hope so, there may be hope for dark forces yet


Either this or i just instal some early apple os on the iPhone and run it from there. things could get messy in the long run though.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Exactly. The iPhone as Steve said in the very beginning, "it is not a smart phone."

I would suggest that when the link to the keynote is up, take heed. Right now the best I can do is quote Macworld which is as follows:

“We have been trying to come up with a solution to expand the capabilities of iPhone by letting developers write great apps for it, and yet keep the iPhone reliable and secure. and we’ve come up with a very sweet solution,” said Jobs.

This capability is being exposed through the full version of Safari that will run on the iPhone, said Jobs, using “Web 2.0”-style technologies like AJAX that will enable developers to create content that “looks and behaves exactly like apps,” integrated with the iPhone and iPhone services.

“They can make a call, they can send an e-mail, they can look up a location on Google Maps,” Jobs added for emphasis. What’s more, distribution is simple because developers can put them up on their own servers, update the code themselves, and incorporate the built-in security that Web 2.0 applications provide.

“They run securely on the iPhone, so they don’t compromise its reliability or security. And guess what? There’s no [software development kit]. You’ve got everything you need, if you know how to write apps using existing Web standards,” Jobs said.

Apple VP Scott Forstall demonstrated how this can work by showing an Apple directory application that runs in less than 600 lines of code. The application returned a search query from safari into an address book-style card, where the identified user could be called or e-mailed using the built-in services on the iPhone."

As everybody isl talking here, this is a very sweet solution. Revolutionary in more ways than one!

Yeah, revolutionary in that it's almost useless.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by Sport73

Apple didn't show it, but I'm willing to bet that the iPhone can tap into the 'remote finder' functionality showcased today, giving you access to your entire desktop via .Mac; so you may end up with all of your Mac apps on your iPhone, in a sense.

Even if that were true, just how do you expect to use those apps?

480 x 320, no mouse or pointer, no full keyboard.

[pmjoe]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

I would suggest that when the link to the keynote is up, take heed. Right now the best I can do is quote Macworld which is as follows:

“They can make a call, they can send an e-mail, they can look up a location on Google Maps,” Jobs added for emphasis."

Irregardless of the security issues being able to make a call from a web app ... sending an e-mail and pulling up a location on Google Maps have zero to do with developing an application. If that's the functionality a developer can get out of the iPhone ... it's a real yawner.

“What’s more, distribution is simple because developers can put them up on their own servers, update the code themselves, and incorporate the built-in security that Web 2.0 applications provide."

Developers have to have a web server to have an app. With a database. And they're responsible for maintaining and the security of your data on that server ... which otherwise, they could've just stored on your phone.

“They run securely on the iPhone, so they don’t compromise its reliability or security."

Instead you'll get to keep a gazillion accounts elsewhere for every little app, and download it every time, and require an Internet connection all the time. But Apple won't be responsible for your security ... it'll be websites everywhere that are responsible.

“And guess what? There’s no [software development kit]." Jobs said.

How convenient ... for Apple.

“Apple VP Scott Forstall demonstrated how this can work by showing an Apple directory application that runs in less than 600 lines of code. The application returned a search query from safari into an address book-style card, where the identified user could be called or e-mailed using the built-in services on the iPhone."

Well there's a sophisticated application ... NOT! Links to an e-mail and a phone number ... wow!

As everybody isl talking here, this is a very sweet solution. Revolutionary in more ways than one!

Revolutionary? ROTFLMAO

[pmjoe]

Or to summarize my previous message ... the entirety of the iPhone's development capabilities are that:

1. you can use a "mailto" link in HTML to access the e-mail program
2. there is some equivalent to "mailto" for dialing the phone from a link
3. you can do a mashup with Google Maps

[Xool]

As long as my AJAX app can run as a top-level iPhone app I'm happy. Not sure if you'll be able to have them show there rather than as Safari bookmarks.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by Xool

As long as my AJAX app can run as a top-level iPhone app I'm happy. Not sure if you'll be able to have them show there rather than as Safari bookmarks.

Great. So a hundred developers will be doing the same thing, because, unless there's something we don't know about this, there's just about one thing that can be done.

[mrpiddly]

Can someone more knowledgable explain the limitatons of this. Could i have a server that only i can acess, what can i run, are there limits?

[mrpiddly]

also, could one use a bluetooth key board and mouse or will that not work at all.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by mrpiddly

Can someone more knowledgable explain the limitatons of this. Could i have a server that only i can acess, what can i run, are there limits?

Good questions. I don't have an answer.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by mrpiddly

also, could one use a bluetooth key board and mouse or will that not work at all.

From Job's response to the question of would OS X apps be ported over during the "D" conference, his answer was probably not, for most, at least.

The reasons he gave was that as the desktop was so different, and and that there was no mouse available, they couldn't be accessed.

So, I would have to say no. At least not at this time, with Apple's blessings. Perhaps someone will be able to figure it out, or provide one for the iPhone, like the ones for the Palm, or windows Mobile models.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by melgross

From Job's response to the question of would OS X apps be ported over during the "D" conference, his answer was probably not, for most, at least.

The reasons he gave was that as the desktop was so different, and and that there was no mouse available, they couldn't be accessed.

I can understand that the desktop and handheld are different environments, but no mouse? How is that an argument? That would be obtusely ignoring the device's main control mechanism, which does (or can do) the same thing, even if it does it differently.

[physguy]

Originally Posted by melgross

Great. So a hundred developers will be doing the same thing, because, unless there's something we don't know about this, there's just about one thing that can be done.

So what am I missing here.

1) First a question - is google docs an app that fits this definition?

2) If so, and since the new Safari Beta runs google docs, this seems like a rather sophisticated application so many things can be done with this approach.

3) Add Google Gears, which is most certainly coming it becomes independent of the Web.

This doesn't seem so disastrous.

[a_greer]

App!=website!

[Louzer]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

“They can make a call, they can send an e-mail, they can look up a location on Google Maps,” Jobs added for emphasis. What’s more, distribution is simple because developers can put them up on their own servers, update the code themselves, and incorporate the built-in security that Web 2.0 applications provide.

Gee, and I could swear I read an article last month about how insecure so many AJAX apps are, as the tools they're built with lack a lot of the validation/verification that is needed.

Plus, as others have said, there is nothing intrinsically 'secure' about web 2.0 apps. Its only as secure as the servers the data is stored on, and the channel the data is sent through.