Apple struggling to reach iPhone deal with European carriers

[AppleInsider]

Apple, which is due to launch iPhone in the United States later this month, is facing opposition for potential European wireless carriers who are unwilling to concede to the company's stringent demands, according to a recent advisory from Current Analysis.

The report, issued Monday, notes that wireless provider Orange should be a shoo-in for the iPhone contract in Europe as it's the only operator with significant EDGE coverage in the region. "But early indications are that Apple may be forced to go retail-only in Europe," wrote analyst Avi Greengart.

Several European operators reportedly advised Greengart that they had spoken to Apple and found the company “unbelievably arrogant,” making demands that “simply cannot be justified, no matter how hot the product is.”

"Several were adamant that they will never offer the iPhone," Greengart wrote. Therefore, he suggested in his report that "early indications are that Apple may be forced to go retail-only in Europe."

As far as U.S. iPhone distribution goes, the Current analyst noted that for reasons he "cannot begin to fathom," Nokia and Sony Ericsson have left the high end consumer segment completely open for Apple.

"Other than productivity-oriented devices, there is basically nothing to buy above $199 at carrier retailers, where the vast majority of phones are sold," he wrote. "A receptive home market lets Apple figure out what works, and what doesn’t, before moving abroad."

Greengart attests that iPhone will need that incubation period because once it arrives in Europe and Asia, it will encounter serious, entrenched competition. Sony Ericsson’s W950, he noted, has offered European consumers a touchscreen smartphone with 4GB flash memory and music and Web capabilities – plus UMTS – for nearly two years.

Regardless of how insanely cool the iPhone’s user interface is, the analyst also said that some consumers will always gravitate towards phones with real buttons on them. But at the same time, he believes iPhone should still sell millions of units in the first six to nine months.

"I would consider anything above 1 million units of a $500 handset a smash hit, and it looks like Apple will sell considerably more -- possibly many times that," the analyst wrote.

Those likely to adopt an iPhone when it goes on sale in the U.S. on June 29th generally fall within three separate groups, according to Greengart. There's the "The Apple Faithful," "People who want the latest 'it' thing," and "some mainstream consumers."

"There may be disagreement on the size of the first two groups, but not whether they’ll queue up to buy. If Apple sells just to them, it will have a solid hit on its hand," he wrote. "The third group, mainstream consumers, is quite controversial. This is where having actually used an iPhone -- if only for a short while -- colors my analysis."

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[vistasucks.wordpress.com]

(sigh) At least there's talks happening. What about Canada?!

[Ireland]

Originally Posted by vistasucks.wordpress.com

(sigh) At least there's talks happening. What about Canada?!

There's talk happening in Canada too. I hope they have to sell it unlocked with no SIM, that would be a win for the consumer here.

[danielctull]

Originally Posted by vistasucks.wordpress.com

(sigh) At least there's talks happening. What about Canada?!

Ever heard of the phrase "no news is good news" ?

[SpamSandwich]

This is that news.

[vinney57]

Eventually someone will have to blink and do Apple's bidding. The initial US sales figures will, I suspect, be phenomenal and nobody wants to give that sort of business to a competitor.

[bluedalmatian]

does retail only mean apple becoming a virtual operator or simply selling iphones on no network for you to put your own sim in?

orange are a lousy operator by all accounts so as long as its not exclusively apples and oranges it should be ok.

if it was Voda or T Mobile I'd be happy. Used to support O2 util in typical british business man short signted ness they sold out. - and yes i am british, and i notice how the best run biritsh companies have foreign ceo's

[BlackSummerNight]

They are not having a problem giving it to someone else right now.

Originally Posted by vinney57

Eventually someone will have to blink and do Apple's bidding. The initial US sales figures will, I suspect, be phenomenal and nobody wants to give that sort of business to a competitor.

[anantksundaram]

I don't understand why, in the first place, Apple needs a telecom service partner in Europe. It's not like the US, where the service providers are gatekeepers between the handset provider and the customer. I always figured that, in Europe, someone who is interested could just buy one retail (and unlocked), and take it to any provider to get a service (unless there is a discount, which Apple does not seem to want to agree to).

I think not having a partner may become more of an issue a couple of years down the road. However, if and when its numbers grow, the service providers will find it in their interest to deal with Apple.

All that said, I truly wish Apple would tone down its arrogance. That is the kind of thing that could truly destroy the company in the long run, regardless of how cool it is (or thinks it is). This attitude -- often attributed to US companies -- simply does not fly in Europe and Asia. (If they can't tone it down, they shouldn't even bother trying to enter those markets).

[GQB]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

I don't understand why, in the first place, Apple needs a telecom service partner in Europe.

The 'visual voice mail' feature is something that has to be implemented on the carrier side.
Since that's possibly the single most 'revolutionary' feature of the phone, I doubt that Apple will partner with any carrier that won't do the work necessary to implement that feature.

[vinney57]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

All that said, I truly wish Apple would tone down its arrogance. That is the kind of thing that could truly destroy the company in the long run, regardless of how cool it is (or thinks it is). This attitude -- often attributed to US companies -- simply does not fly in Europe and Asia. (If they can't tone it down, they shouldn't even bother trying to enter those markets).

This is portentous rubbish.

[BlackSummerNight]

That's your opinion.

Originally Posted by vinney57

This is portentous rubbish.

"Operators consistently told us, not for attribution, of course, that they had spoken to Apple and found the company 'unbelievably arrogant', making demands that 'simply cannot be justified no matter how hot the product is',"

[physguy]

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

That's your opinion.

"Operators consistently told us, not for attribution, of course, that they had spoken to Apple and found the company 'unbelievably arrogant', making demands that 'simply cannot be justified no matter how hot the product is',"

And if I were having trouble getting what I wanted from Apple I might just 'anonymously release' this information. FUD abounds everywhere.

[bigmig]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

All that said, I truly wish Apple would tone down its arrogance.

If we were talking about actual end users, then I would agree. But we're talking about telecom companies, which - if they're anything like the companies in the US (Verizon, AT&T, Sprint) - are unbelievably arrogant and treat their customers like complete sh*t...basically give them garbage service and tell them they should feel lucky to even have that.

However arrogant Apple may be in its treatment of the telecoms, it can't possibly be as arrogant as they actually deserve.

[BlackSummerNight]

Yes it is. How do you know who's trying to screw who.

Originally Posted by physguy

And if I were having trouble getting what I wanted from Apple I might just 'anonymously release' this information. FUD abounds everywhere.

[TenoBell]

It depends on who is trying to help the consumer

Are the telco companies demanding to lock down features that the consumer will have to pay more money for?

Or is Apple demanding a percentage of subscription fees?

It depends on what they are negotiating.

[zenatek]

The biggest problem with Canada is the cost of Data transfer. One of the main features of the phone will be useless unless we get some reasonable data transfer rates here.

[the cool gut]

Originally Posted by bigmig

If we were talking about actual end users, then I would agree. But we're talking about telecom companies, which - if they're anything like the companies in the US (Verizon, AT&T, Sprint) - are unbelievably arrogant and treat their customers like complete sh*t...basically give them garbage service and tell them they should feel lucky to even have that.

However arrogant Apple may be in its treatment of the telecoms, it can't possibly be as arrogant as they actually deserve.

++

I haven't upgraded my Blackberry in 4 fucking years, because the new ones really don't offer anything extra. Cell phone development is fucking rediculous, and it's all because the Carriers tell the handset makers what to do. The iPhone has changed the game, and now handset makers are going to need more leeway to compete, so of course the carriers are going to have a hissy fit.

[ToMiKoN]

Apple doesn't understand that Europe & America are two diffirent merkets.

For example, here in Belgium operators can't sell a phone and a SIM (postpaid/prepaid) together. So you have to buy a phone as "bulk" and buy prepaidcards or subscribe to a postpaid contract.
The only thing they can do is put there name on the box of new phones. Like Mobistar (Orange Belgium) has phones boxed with "MobistarCollection" on it, The phone has settings for the operator preloaded but there's no SIM in the box.

So what will Apple do in Belgium?

[BlackSummerNight]

May I ask what features Carriers are blocking. I'm a Cingular customer, and I've never had any problems. I have heard that tmobile cripples bluetooth and wifi.

Originally Posted by the cool gut

++

I haven't upgraded my Blackberry in 4 fucking years, because the new ones really don't offer anything extra. Cell phone development is fucking rediculous, and it's all because the Carriers tell the handset makers what to do. The iPhone has changed the game, and now handset makers are going to need more leeway to compete, so of course the carriers are going to have a hissy fit.

[Louzer]

Originally Posted by the cool gut

++

I haven't upgraded my Blackberry in 4 fucking years, because the new ones really don't offer anything extra. Cell phone development is fucking rediculous, and it's all because the Carriers tell the handset makers what to do. The iPhone has changed the game, and now handset makers are going to need more leeway to compete, so of course the carriers are going to have a hissy fit.

The iPhone hasn't changed anything, except now its not the carriers holding back your abilities, it'll be apple. They're the ones trying to tell the carriers what to do, what to allow and not allow.

[physguy]

Originally Posted by ToMiKoN

Apple doesn't understand that Europe & America are two diffirent merkets.

For example, here in Belgium operators can't sell a phone and a SIM (postpaid/prepaid) together. So you have to buy a phone as "bulk" and buy prepaidcards or subscribe to a postpaid contract.
The only thing they can do is put there name on the box of new phones. Like Mobistar (Orange Belgium) has phones boxed with "MobistarCollection" on it, The phone has settings for the operator preloaded but there's no SIM in the box.

So what will Apple do in Belgium?

And you reach this conclusion based on what information? You really think that Apple, given the size and investment in this project, isn't aware of these things? This information is not really that hard to come by.

There is NO reliable information out there about how the iPhone will be released in Europe. Speculation about it is one thing but why do people insists on making conclusory statements - "Apple Doesn't understand the Europe & America are two different markets." - based on no information.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by vinney57

This is portentous rubbish.

Ooh.... impressive word. Why use a simple word when a vainglorious one will suffice!

[physguy]

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

Yes it is. How do you know who's trying to screw who.

Exactly

[ToMiKoN]

@physguy

I know that my toughts are based on rumors, but facts are:
1. There is no one big European operator, who has networks in all country's
2. Bundeling phones is not everywhere allowed.
3. UMTS/HSDPA is already rolled out in lot's of country's

[Kavik]

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

May I ask what features Carriers are blocking. I'm a Cingular customer, and I've never had any problems. I have heard that tmobile cripples bluetooth and wifi.

T-Mobile is actually the one US carrier that has openly embraced and supported Wifi (due to their Hotspots service) and has more Wifi enabled handsets than anyone. They also have the least crippled phone/devices of the big four IMHO. Now Verizon on the other hand limits just about *everything* you can do with your own phone, with Sprint being a close second.

[physguy]

Originally Posted by ToMiKoN

@physguy

I know that my toughts are based on rumors, but facts are:
1. There is no one big European operator, who has networks in all country's
2. Bundeling phones is not everywhere allowed.
3. UMTS/HSDPA is already rolled out in lot's of country's

I know all that. But what makes you think Apple doesn't?

[afalkner]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

I don't understand why, in the first place, Apple needs a telecom service partner in Europe. It's not like the US, where the service providers are gatekeepers between the handset provider and the customer. I always figured that, in Europe, someone who is interested could just buy one retail (and unlocked), and take it to any provider to get a service (unless there is a discount, which Apple does not seem to want to agree to).

I think Apple wants a Telecom in Europe so they are not forced to sell their phones unlocked for any reason. If they were forced to do business the normal way in europe and sell unlocked phones that use SIM cards...then I (in the US) could buy an unlocked phone from Europe (like i already do) and just put my T-Mobile sim card in it.

Personally I am really hoping this happens cuz I love T-Mobile and have never had any problems. I dont want to switch to AT&Crap.

[physguy]

Originally Posted by Louzer

The iPhone hasn't changed anything, except now its not the carriers holding back your abilities, it'll be apple. They're the ones trying to tell the carriers what to do, what to allow and not allow.

Of course it hasn't changed anything, its not been released yet.

Oh wait, it already has changed things. Just look at the 'iPhone Killers' being put forward????

[jwdawso]

Originally Posted by ToMiKoN

@physguy

I know that my toughts are based on rumors, but facts are:
1. There is no one big European operator, who has networks in all country's
2. Bundeling phones is not everywhere allowed.
3. UMTS/HSDPA is already rolled out in lot's of country's

No disagreement on those facts - but how do they drive the conclusion that "Apple doesn't understand that Europe & America are two diffirent merkets."?

Other facts to add:
1. Apple has been working iTunes agreements across the world.
2. Apple sells computers and iPods across the world.
3. Apple is in business to make a profit.

[the cool gut]

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

May I ask what features Carriers are blocking. I'm a Cingular customer, and I've never had any problems. I have heard that tmobile cripples bluetooth and wifi.

I'm talking about designing the actual phone. Phone makers need to submit their phones to carriers for approval, and carriers tell them what features they want the phone to have ect. and so forth. For example, this is one reason why you would never see wifi in a phone, because carriers want you to pay for a data plan.

[the cool gut]

Originally Posted by Louzer

The iPhone hasn't changed anything, except now its not the carriers holding back your abilities, it'll be apple. They're the ones trying to tell the carriers what to do, what to allow and not allow.

The iPhone has turned the development of phones completely on it's head. The inclusion of Wifi is a perfect example.

[SpinDrift]

Originally Posted by bluedalmatian

does retail only mean apple becoming a virtual operator or simply selling iphones on no network for you to put your own sim in?

Retail only means handset only, you would be required to source your own SIM and contract.

orange are a lousy operator by all accounts so as long as its not exclusively apples and oranges it should be ok.

By all accounts? By who's accounts? Actually Orange ranked highest in the latest consumer satisfaction survey. They tend to have a good rapport with their customers and a faithful following.

[SpinDrift]

Originally Posted by the cool gut

The iPhone has turned the development of phones completely on it's head. The inclusion of Wifi is a perfect example.

Umm there are plenty of phones with WiFi! Where have you been the past 2 years?

[BlackSummerNight]

LOL, you beat me to it.

Originally Posted by SpinDrift

Umm there are plenty of phones with WiFi! Where have you been the past 2 years?

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by afalkner

I think Apple wants a Telecom in Europe so they are not forced to sell their phones unlocked for any reason. If they were forced to do business the normal way in europe and sell unlocked phones that use SIM cards...then I (in the US) could buy an unlocked phone from Europe (like i already do) and just put my T-Mobile sim card in it.

Personally I am really hoping this happens cuz I love T-Mobile and have never had any problems. I dont want to switch to AT&Crap.

But: (1) if there is a SIM tray that slides out (as some people have speculated), (2) since there is no price advantage to buying the iPhone with or w/o ATT, and (3) if visual voicemail is not an issue (based on what GQB pointed out above), couldn't you just order the handset from the Apple online store and put in a T-Mobile (or any other) SIM card?

[the cool gut]

Originally Posted by SpinDrift

Umm there are plenty of phones with WiFi! Where have you been the past 2 years?

And you can use it to browse the internet? Mother fucker. Nevermind what I said.

[bigmig]

Originally Posted by Kavik

Now Verizon on the other hand limits just about *everything* you can do with your own phone, with Sprint being a close second.

Yeah VZW is the worst. They cripple critical features (e.g. Bluetooth) and dictate that all phones must run their own crappy custom software interface. How would you like it if Comcast said that in order to use their broadband service, you had to buy a computer through them, and that computer had to run a custom Comcast version of Windows 95?

[bavlondon2]

Looks like Orange dont want 2 year contracts. It must be over pricing.

Dont know about you guys but a 2 year contract is for mugs. Especially as the successor to the iphone could be out before your 2 years are up.

[cnocbui]

I think this is great news and truly hope Apple doesn't succeed in find a European partner.

As long as the iPhone is contract only there is no prospect I would ever consider acquiring one as pre-paid is the only economic option for me. So Apple selling them retail over here is a good thing IMO. The other thing is that if they do, I could buy iPhones and sell them to people in the US via eBay who don't want a contract or Cingular - ha ha! (only kidding in case you are humor impaired)

Before you point out the visual voice mail wouldn't work in the US other than on a contract with Cingular or in Europe if they don't get a partner - I realise that and couldn't care less, personally. Not a feature of interest to me.