Purported T-Mobile ad claims 3G iPhone for Germany in November

[AppleInsider]

A print advertisement rumored to have leaked out of T-Mobile Germany suggests that Apple could launch a 3G-capable iPhone in the region on November 12th.

Originally published by MacBidouille, the ad (also below) promises a version of the Apple handset with support for 3G-level cellular Internet access using both the US-friendly HSDPA format and typically Europe-only UMTS, with theoretical download speeds reaching the format's full 3.6Mbps.

Aside from obvious references to 3G-capable speeds and a suspicious one-off mention of a "16GB iPod," the ad otherwise describes an iPhone akin to the U.S. model, complete with a 2-megapixel camera and Visual Voicemail capabilities.

Electronista, which transcribed much of the German-language text, notes that the supposed "3G iPhone" would sell for 499 Euros ($687) including a coupon for the iTunes Store, and would be available with phone plans that all offer unlimited data and vary only in terms of general calling minutes and SMS messages.

An "L" plan would offer 200 minutes and 100 messages for 50 Euros ($69) per month; "XL" and "XXL" plans would jump to 300 and 400 minutes respectively for 60 Euros ($83) and 70 Euros ($96) per month with 150 and 200 messages each.

T-Mobile has yet to officially confirm its selection as Germany's exclusive carrier for the Apple handset, but has already been caught preparing support materials for the product, in one case hosting images for the product on its own website. Similarly, resource files embedded in the U.S. version of the iPhone also list "T-Mobile" as one of the handset's international "default carriers."



Germany, by way of T-Mobile, is expected to be just one of three European countries to receive the Apple handset later this year. O2 of the UK and an Orange of France are expected to emerge as the other two exclusive providers in their regions.

[melgross]

While none of us can pretend that we know anything about these deals other than what we read, I somehow think that the purported troubles Apple is having signing foreign carriers is a lot of malarkey.

Why that would be so, I don't know.

Are they getting the fees that ATT is giving them? That would be interesting to know.

[skipthedog69]

I can't read German, but why does it say "Apple iPod 16GB" in the middle of this iPhone ad?

[pate]

Most definitely a fake. The German is in this ad is too clumsy. Can't imagine (though wish) that T-Mobile would offer plans like this. Way too cheap - no chance

[TenoBell]

Those are horrible prices. 400 minutes - 200 text messages for 70 Euros? Europe is supposed to have better competition and prices than the US.

[pate]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Those are horrible prices. 400 minutes - 200 text messages for 70 Euros? Europe is supposed to have better competition and prices than the US.

Don't know about the rest of Europe. But in Germany T-Mobile is the most expensive carrier. For example: For 400 minutes and 200 text messages the charge 64 Euros a month - mobile phone not included in the 24-months-contract.

[melgross]

Europe is not nearly as good as some of our European compatriots say it is.

Often data rates are far higher than here.

There was a story on CNN yesterday about how a family vacationing in Europe got billed for thousands for roaming data rates because the iPhone was background updating their mail app.

I can't seem to find it now. When my wife gets back maybe she can find it, unless someone here can.

Shows that once you leave the US, you MUST be careful.

[shanmugam]

it looks like Apple taken the entire US apple fan boys for granted, making it as testing ground and announcing a better product elsewhere ... hmmm

[k2director]

Originally Posted by shanmugam

it looks like Apple taken the entire US apple fan boys for granted, making it as testing ground and announcing a better product elsewhere ... hmmm

Uh, no, I don't think you can make that case.

Europe is a totally different market than the U.S., where 3G is far more common-place. You can easily make an argument that 3G is not essential to the bulk of American buyers, whereas it is to European customers. In other words, a different product is necessary to compete in Europe. Also, if the iPhone launches in Europe in November, it will come about 5 months after the U.S. launch. That's clearly enough time to warrant a new product.

And once it launches in Europe, it will only be a matter of time before it shows up here as well...

[melgross]

My wife couldn't find the CNN one, but sent me two others.

http://www.amny.com/news/local/newyo...rail_headlines

I think this is the same article though. But I'llpost it.


http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-b...ny_wire_xpromo

[shanmugam]

Originally Posted by k2director

Uh, no, I don't think you can make that case.

Europe is a totally different market than the U.S., where 3G is far more common-place. You can easily make an argument that 3G is not essential to the bulk of American buyers, whereas it is to European customers. In other words, a different product is necessary to compete in Europe. Also, if the iPhone launches in Europe in November, it will come about 5 months after the U.S. launch. That's clearly enough time to warrant a new product.

And once it launches in Europe, it will only be a matter of time before it shows up here as well...

hope 3G when introduced in europe introduced here as well, oh that 16GB model as well...

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Those are horrible prices. 400 minutes - 200 text messages for 70 Euros? Europe is supposed to have better competition and prices than the US.

I was thinking the same thing...... esp. since a lot of folks from the EU posting on AI have been talking about how superior their tarrifs and plans are...... If this is true, the $60 ATT deal is beginning to look better and better.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by melgross

Often data rates are far higher than here.

There was a story on CNN yesterday about how a family vacationing in Europe got billed for thousands for roaming data rates because the iPhone was background updating their mail app.

I can't seem to find it now. .... Shows that once you leave the US, you MUST be careful.

Heh, heh, see this:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=77415

[murphyweb]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Those are horrible prices. 400 minutes - 200 text messages for 70 Euros? Europe is supposed to have better competition and prices than the US.

No, actually those prices seem about right for a high-end handset in Europe - bearing in mind that in Europe you do not have to buy your phone upfront, you either pay a greatly reduced price or very often do not pay anything for your handset as the cost is subsidised by the network operator.

As i have said before on here i cannot see Apples US model working in Europe and am sure they will need to go down the subsidised route. The major problem is the fact that you cannot sell a handset that cannot be unlocked in Europe, the networks will need a way to force people to stick to a contract term - subsidising the handset is the only way to really do this.

These prices, if true may point to me being right!!

[murphyweb]

I have also been quite adamant despite much criticism from the fanbois that the current iPhone would not do well in Europe, I was sure that Apple would have to release a new phone into Europe if they ever had a chance to break that market. But of course even without any experience at all many of the fanbois still tore me down, told me i was speaking shite etc..

Many peoples answers revolved around the fact that Steve Jobs was a genius and Europeans dont know what they want and that Apple would be changing the way that people in Europe use their phones etc.. No, it seems clear now that by releasing a new model for Europe Apple are indeed thinking about the way in which they use phones their and releasing a model to suit - well done Apple.

Of course the same fanbois will use this as further evidence of Steve Jobs genius and conveniently forget the crap they directed and others, including myself over the last couple of months.

[TenoBell]

I have also been quite adamant despite much criticism from the fanbois that the current iPhone would not do well in Europe, I was sure that Apple would have to release a new phone into Europe if they ever had a chance to break that market.

This is still just a rumor at this point. The ad does look pretty sloppy. Maybe true and it may not be.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by shanmugam

hope 3G when introduced in europe introduced here as well, oh that 16GB model as well...

It said "16GB iPod", not 16GB iPhone, if correct.

We do know about the 16GB iPod now. That possibly gives more credence to the article.

But what would T-Mobile be writing about an iPod (with WiFi!) for?

That's the interesting question here.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Heh, heh, see this:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=77415

Now that I saw that, I have a vague memory of it.

How did you remember where to find it?

[murphyweb]

Originally Posted by melgross

It said "16GB iPod", not 16GB iPhone, if correct.

We do know about the 16GB iPod now. That possibly gives more credence to the article.

But what would T-Mobile be writing about an iPod (with WiFi!) for?

That's the interesting question here.

It is ironic but probably true that the presence of a sloppy mistake actually points to it being real as any self respected faker would not make such a stupid error. This is probably a first draft of a proposed ad style and the content should not be taken for granted, even the prices could well be have just pulled out of the air in order to finish the ad and may well mean nothing.

[Rolo]

Interesting that they mentioned a speed of 3.6Mbps. That's exactly half the speed of the dual mode modems made by InterDigital. AI has an article about that supposed deal with Apple. If Apple is licensing those modems, why would the max speed be stated as 3.6Mbps when InterDigital's operate at up to 7.2Mbps?

[melgross]

Originally Posted by murphyweb

It is ironic but probably true that the presence of a sloppy mistake actually points to it being real as any self respected faker would not make such a stupid error. This is probably a first draft of a proposed ad style and the content should not be taken for granted, even the prices could well be have just pulled out of the air in order to finish the ad and may well mean nothing.

The problem is that you don't know that it IS a mistake. It's totally an assumption on your part.

So, all we can think is that maybe it's 50/50.

But the mention of a 16GB iPod, written BEFORE the announcement of Apple, must give one pause.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by Rolo

Interesting that they mentioned a speed of 3.6Mbps. That's exactly half the speed of the dual mode modems made by InterDigital. AI has an article about that supposed deal with Apple. If Apple is licensing those modems, why would the max speed be stated as 3.6Mbps when InterDigital's operate at up to 7.2Mbps?

If the network only goes to 3.6, then that's all the phone will be capable of.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by melgross

How did you remember where to find it?

Under "Forums" --> "iPhone" --> "ATT's Billing Rip-off" (a thread that I started).

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Originally published by MacBidouille, the ad (also below) promises a version of the Apple handset with support for 3G-level cellular Internet access using both the US-friendly HSDPA format and typically Europe-only UMTS, with theoretical download speeds reaching the format's full 3.6Mbps.

You can't get HSDPA without UMTS. HSDPA is part of the UMTS standard. As is HSUPA which is what most carriers are rolling out in Europe now. Nice to see Apple will only be one generation behind, not three.

AT&T and T-Mobile in the USA both have UMTS with HSDPA networks. Unfortunately they operate them on a different frequency to Europe though, just as they do with GSM.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Those are horrible prices. 400 minutes - 200 text messages for 70 Euros? Europe is supposed to have better competition and prices than the US.

It *IS* horrible and makes me question the advert since t-mobile don't usually specify fixed minutes and fixed text messages, you instead have an 'allowance' which is used for a composite of both.

Perhaps someone can fill in the German prices but as a counter example from t-mobile UK...

A Nokia N95 (most expensive phone in Europe just now probably) on an 18 month Web+Walk plan is £52.50 inc VAT a month (about 77 Euros). That gets you unlimited data, 1275 minutes talk or 2550 texts and the phone itself is totally FREE.

If you want to be cheap, you could go for a £22.50 (33 Euro) Web+Walk plan which gives you unlimited data, 170 minutes or 340 texts. But then they'll charge you £219.99 (322 Euro) for the N95.

Usually if you're paying over £40 a month on a contract you get a phone free in the UK. In Germany it might be different but that advert puts it about $700 more expensive than an N95 on a very mediocre plan compared to what you can get for the same money.

Originally Posted by melgross

Europe is not nearly as good as some of our European compatriots say it is.

Often data rates are far higher than here.

There was a story on CNN yesterday about how a family vacationing in Europe got billed for thousands for roaming data rates because the iPhone was background updating their mail app.

That's ROAMING rates though, not our normal data rates. What you get charged is dependent on agreements between AT&T and the foreign carrier, not their local data plan charges. And yes some of the phones companies still have stupid data rates but generally they all seem to be settling on 'unlimited' for about £7.50 a month inc tax.

I think the high data charges when abroad are Apple's fault personally. There should be an easy way to switch off data access. On my phone I can tell it to warn me when it's trying to connect via GPRS or to not allow data.

It's a pity you can't unlock the iPhone to use other local SIMs though. That's what I do if I'm abroad. I learn't that one the hard way - £170 bill for a weeks data when in Ireland once. You only do it once and then buy a local SIM and stick it in your phone the next time.


The other questionable thing in the advert is the lack of front facing camera, which I can't imagine the phone companies with 3G tarifs being too pleased with. No expensive video calls.

[murphyweb]

Originally Posted by melgross

The problem is that you don't know that it IS a mistake. It's totally an assumption on your part.

So, all we can think is that maybe it's 50/50.

But the mention of a 16GB iPod, written BEFORE the announcement of Apple, must give one pause.

The iPod reference cleary is a mistake, the ad is for an iphone, cleary it is for an iPhone, someone made an error and wrote iPod instead of iPhone - i cannot see any other expanation for that?

[melgross]

Originally Posted by murphyweb

The iPod reference cleary is a mistake, the ad is for an iphone, cleary it is for an iPhone, someone made an error and wrote iPod instead of iPhone - i cannot see any other expanation for that?

Possibly there is.

As I pointed out, the 16Gb iPod has WiFi.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But, it could be interesting.

[ZGerman]

Originally Posted by pate

Most definitely a fake. The German is in this ad is too clumsy. Can't imagine (though wish) that T-Mobile would offer plans like this. Way too cheap - no chance

Although I have not been back in Germany for some seven months now, the ad could definitely be real. The German is fine and the plans are rather expensive for T-Mobile (feel free to check it out: http://www.t-mobile.de and click on "Tarife & Optionen"). However, the fine print usually holds the big surprises. Keep in mind that the purported iPhone plan includes full data coverage in the UMTS network - that usually costs big time (again, on the web page under "Tarife & Optionen", click on "Tarifübersicht" and find the included "Internetminuten" (I think no translation is necessary here) in the plans). ... (I like to write in parantheses )

Cheers.

[heinzel]

The fact that it says iPod and not iPhone is definitely weird. Assuming that the ad is real, €499 seems to be steep even including the regular price difference between the US and Europe, such that it would make sense if the iPhone would contain 16 GB flash RAM instead of the 8 over here in the US, if it's that expensive.
By the way, 200 minutes sounds horribly little for the US, however in Germany only the calls that the cell phone makes get billed to the caller, not the incoming calls, such that you generally don't need as many minutes as you would in the US. Also, a data flat rate that is offered in the ad is quite uncommon in Germany; Normally, data costs either by the MB, or you pay for a fixed Quota, and exorbitant prices for every MB you go over. So, all in all, the ad makes sense. Guess we'll find out on November 12th whether it's real or not.

[ZGerman]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

It *IS* horrible and makes me question the advert since t-mobile don't usually specify fixed minutes and fixed text messages, you instead have an 'allowance' which is used for a composite of both.

Perhaps someone can fill in the German prices but as a counter example from t-mobile UK...

A Nokia N95 (most expensive phone in Europe just now probably) on an 18 month Web+Walk plan is £52.50 inc VAT a month (about 77 Euros). That gets you unlimited data, 1275 minutes talk or 2550 texts and the phone itself is totally FREE.

If you want to be cheap, you could go for a £22.50 (33 Euro) Web+Walk plan which gives you unlimited data, 170 minutes or 340 texts. But then they'll charge you £219.99 (322 Euro) for the N95.

Usually if you're paying over £40 a month on a contract you get a phone free in the UK. In Germany it might be different but that advert puts it about $700 more expensive than an N95 on a very mediocre plan compared to what you can get for the same money.

Well, I think there might be some differences between the UK and Germany. Please tell me: Do you have to pay when you are called on your mobile in the UK (like you have to in the US - at least with your minutes)? In Germany, when you are called, the other party pays and that's it. This may explain the low minute packages. I rarely used my 100 minutes when I was in Germany - now I usually use my 700 minutes in the US.

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

It's a pity you can't unlock the iPhone to use other local SIMs though. That's what I do if I'm abroad. I learn't that one the hard way - £170 bill for a weeks data when in Ireland once. You only do it once and then buy a local SIM and stick it in your phone the next time.

Well, apparently you can unlock the iPhone and it's not even a big deal (from what I read in another forum - a guy bought an iPhone on the very first day, travels to Spain some time later, finds some unlocking shop and has it unlocked for some € 10, puts his Spanish Pay As You Go card in the iPhone and is not charged the reported roaming fees... I do not know if that's true, though.)

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

The other questionable thing in the advert is the lack of front facing camera, which I can't imagine the phone companies with 3G tarifs being too pleased with. No expensive video calls.

Good point

Cheers.

[heinzel]

Originally Posted by ZGerman

Although I have not been back in Germany for some seven months now, the ad could definitely be real. The German is fine and the plans are rather expensive for T-Mobile (feel free to check it out: http://www.t-mobile.de and click on "Tarife & Optionen"). However, the fine print usually holds the big surprises. Keep in mind that the purported iPhone plan includes full data coverage in the UMTS network - that usually costs big time (again, on the web page under "Tarife & Optionen", click on "Tarifübersicht" and find the included "Internetminuten" (I think no translation is necessary here) in the plans). ... (I like to write in parantheses )

Cheers.

I agree wholeheartedly! Hallo, by the way!

[ZGerman]

Originally Posted by heinzel

I agree wholeheartedly! Hallo, by the way!

Hehe, hallo! So spät noch wach (= You are up that late)?

Viele Grüße nach Deutschland! (Many Greetings to Germany)

[heinzel]

Originally Posted by ZGerman

Hehe, hallo! So spät noch wach (= You are up that late)?

Viele Grüße nach Deutschland! (Many Greetings to Germany)

Danke für die Grüße, ich muss allerdings wohl mein Profil updaten, wohne inzwischen in San Diego... .

Schöne Grüße zurück!

[Electric Monk]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Originally published by MacBidouille, the ad (also below) promises a version of the Apple handset with support for 3G-level cellular Internet access using both the US-friendly HSDPA format and typically Europe-only UMTS, with theoretical download speeds reaching the format's full 3.6Mbps.

UMTS is the umbrella name for the GSM 3G protocol. By speed it goes: WCDMA --> HSDPA --> HSUPA. Note that all three are still UMTS, and are both backwards and forwards compatible. The correct term to use is invariably UMTS, with WCDMA/HSDPA/HSUPA used to show the speed of the network.

Europe (along with Japan, South Korea, Australia, and the rest of the world outside North America) use the UMTS 2100 MHz band. North America (and Australia) use the UMTS 850/1900 MHz bands.


499 Euros is reasonable given a 3G chipset and the probable bump to 16GB of flash.

[heffeque]

Originally Posted by Electric Monk

UMTS is the umbrella name for the GSM 3G protocol. By speed it goes: WCDMA --> HSDPA --> HSUPA. Note that all three are still UMTS, and are both backwards and forwards compatible. The correct term to use is invariably UMTS, with WCDMA/HSDPA/HSUPA used to show the speed of the network.

Europe (along with Japan, South Korea, Australia, and the rest of the world outside North America) use the UMTS 2100 MHz band. North America (and Australia) use the UMTS 850/1900 MHz bands.

Actually... HSDPA (3.5G) is for increasing download speeds (right now running 3.6 Mbps in most Europe and starting with 7.2 Mbps, but upload is still 384 Kbps) and HSUPA (3.75G) is for increasing upload speeds (increased download speeds will be implemented in 4G).

[faduci]

Reality check:

• The German in the ad is just fine (I'm German), it looks like a typical T-Mobile ad.
  
• Fixed line costs are cheap in Germany. Right now (3:30AM in Berlin) I could make a national call for Euro cent 0.67 per minute, 0.94 to London, 1 to Paris, New York or Beijing.
  
• Mobile tariffs are something completely different, since the market is not regulated the same way. There are four competing carriers who charge everyone for calling their mobile customers, so to call a mobile phone from a fixed line costs at least about Euro cent 8. Calling a mobile phone in China costs about 20% of calling one in Germany.
  
• Roaming costs are very high and the European carriers have just been forced to lower the prices. I use a prepaid card and they lowered to EUR 0.59 (just below what they are allowed now) from EUR 1.89 per minute. I've been living near the border to the Netherlands for some years and always had to be careful to not accidently call using some of their carriers, which my phone would automatically switch to if it couldn't find the German service.
  
• Most European carriers delayed upgrading their GSM networks to EDGE, because they wanted to push UMTS, for which they often payed a lot. In 2000 each of the German carriers payed EUR 8.5 billions for a 20 years license. UMTS coverage is complete, EDGE coverage is not.

Current T-Mobile rates:

• I just checked the current rates by T-Mobile. The closest are combined Data+Voice tariffs called "Relax". I picked two, none of which offers a true data flat rate, since this is not offered by T-Mobile at all. Compared by included minutes you get "Relax 200" for EUR 29 with 200 main time minutes for calls and "Relax 400" for EUR 49. If you add EUR 21 to each of these, it's called XL and includes 2h of internet access. True data tariffs are volume based, the closest option being "web'n'walk large Standard", 5GB for EUR45, speed caped to 384kbit/sec. No tariff offers more than 5GB/month. The minimum for 200min talk plus "web'n'walk basic" 200MB data (EUR 20) would wind up at EUR 49, with 5GB you are at EUR 74.
  
• T-Mobile is the most expensive German carrier, but the others aren't far behind. There are true mobile flat rates for about EUR 50, but they do not support HSDPA, only standard UMTS@384kbit/sec. One provider (base) offers a limited data flat for EUR 25 at that speed. Limited means no VoIP, no VPN and other things. Don't know how they manage that, probably some proxies which would most likely mean no SSH, no P2P etc. But the market is moving towards real data flat rates.
  

So compared to the current options by T-Mobile in Germany these for the iPhone are basically cheaper if you use the internet at all. Or at least it looks like that, they must have a special department to make sure nobody can understand their weird product descriptions.

And one final note: In Germany mobile phones are called "Handy", so maybe the use of the term iPod in the ad is due to a lot of people knowing what an iPod is, but nobody knowing the iPhone and nobody associating "(i)Phone" with mobile phones. They would have to call it "iHandy" instead to have people make the connection. This is pure speculation.

[palegolas]

Remember Apple is getting 10% of the call and data income if rumors are true, which might mean that T-mobile is adding those 10% for the consumer to pay.
I can only speak for Scandinavia, but here it's normal with no monthly fee at all, and like 5 kr / 10 minutes (= 0,9 USD). Also in Sweden 3G with monthly fee is getting into the competition (instead of charge per MB).. this would be the best for 3G iPhone.

But the thing in Europe is that there are many decent operators with their own little good factors... like calls within the network are free, or calls within your "family" are free etc. I would not like to skip my "same price in Norway and Sweden" for a costy iPhone carrier with no such deal for instance, since I'm moving a lot between the two countries. It would be in the consumer's interest to select their own operator and their own phone. damnit Apple...

[yvo84]

You guys in the US have to pay when people call YOU?
That's bizarre.

In Australia, Telstra is already rolling out their nationwide network now running at 14.4Mbs.....

The handsets aren't keeping up though.

[SpamSandwich]

Originally Posted by melgross

It said "16GB iPod", not 16GB iPhone, if correct.

We do know about the 16GB iPod now. That possibly gives more credence to the article.

But what would T-Mobile be writing about an iPod (with WiFi!) for?

That's the interesting question here.

Perhaps to get around the agreement with at&t, they'll simply market it as an iPod with telecommunications capability, vs. full-on iPhone!

[heffeque]

Originally Posted by yvo84

You guys in the US have to pay when people call YOU?
That's bizarre.

Yeah... I never understood the purpose of making the receiver pay for incoming calls.

[Electric Monk]

Originally Posted by yvo84

You guys in the US have to pay when people call YOU?
That's bizarre.

In Australia, Telstra is already rolling out their nationwide network now running at 14.4Mbs.....

In Canada too. Actually it's much worse in Canada if you have a mobile, it's almost like all the telecom's are evil and out to get you….

Sure they have a fast network, Telstra, but they're also using UMTS on the 2100 & 850 MHz bands when all but a couple 3G phones ever made use either 2100 MHz or (less commonly) 850/1900 MHz.

There are no mobiles I can think of that use 2100/850 MHz, and only a couple that are tri-band, so their fast network requires two separate phones for full coverage. iPhone Revision C in the fall of '08 would be my guess for a tri-band UMTS iPhone, as I really doubt that tri-band chips are currently small enough to use for the Revision B iPhone which means two models, one 2100 MHz and one 850/1900 MHz.