Steve Jobs fields questions following Apple's UK iPhone launch

[AppleInsider]

In a question an answer session following Apple's UK iPhone announcement Tuesday morning, Apple chief executive Steve Jobs fielded questions on future software updates for the handset, third-party application development, the ongoing unlocking saga, 3G iPhones, and revenue share agreements with wireless providers.

Jobs said Apple is still working on the version of the Wi-Fi iTunes Music Store that will work with the iPhone, which hasn't launched yet but will soon be made available via an iPhone software update. In the US, customers will be able to browse the store from an iPhone or iPod touch via a free Wi-Fi connection at certain Starbucks locations, but the same will not be true for UK customers. Why? Jobs had no concrete answer and instead suggested that reporters "ask Starbucks" about the matter, implying that Apple may have sought a similar Wi-Fi sharing deal with the coffee house overseas but has yet to reach an agreement.

The Apple boss was seemingly more willing to discuss the company's stance on iPhone unlocks and third-party application development. "This is constant cat-and-mouse game," he said of the ongoing attempts to untether the handset from its intended carriers. "[P]eople are going to try and break in and it's our job to try and stop them."

Meanwhile, Jobs acknowledged that third-party developers have started to produce several intriguing, yet unofficial iPhone applications. He said Apple is looking at some of them closely, especially those that don't require a connection to the Internet. It's likely that those applications would be the first of any to receive an official endorsement from Apple, according to Jobs' comments, as those that require Internet access could threaten the 'high standard' of experience customers have come to expect with the iPhone.

Jobs also left the door open for a 3G version of the iPhone somewhere down the line, but maintained that current 3G chipsets are "power hogs." He said most of today's 3G devices have battery lives that span only 2 to 3 hours, compared to the iPhone's average 8 hours. "We've got to see the battery lives for 3G get back up into the 5+ hour range," he said. "Hopefully we'll see that late next year."

While Apple's iPhone announcement on Tuesday covered only the UK, Jobs confirmed plans to announce carrier deals in "a few" other European countries during the fourth calendar quarter of the year. Building exclusive partnerships is a timely, consuming process, he explained, and Apple met with the broader array of European carriers before deciding which avenue was best from a customer experience perspective.

"Partnerships take a lot of work -- you want to go out on a few dates before you get married," said Jobs. "Yes, we dated a few people but didn't get married, and so there were a few unhappy girlfriends out there."

The Apple chief, however, would not get into detail about why O2 fit Apple's liking for the UK but not for other European countries. Similarly, he refused to comment on Apple's revenue share agreements with O2, but hinted that such agreements may actually go both ways. When asked whether Apple would share Wi-Fi iTunes Store revenues with carriers in the same way that carriers share service revenues with Apple, Jobs said, "We're not going to go into it, but if it's using the network you can conceptually imagine that it might make sense."

One of the final questions tossed Jobs' way asked what assurance UK customers have that Apple isn't going to turn around in two months and announce a dramatic iPhone price cut like it did in the US.

"I don't think that's going to happen," said Jobs, "but in technology there are no guarantees."

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[SpinDrift]

Jobs had no concrete answer and instead suggested that reporters "ask Starbucks" about the matter, implying that Apple may have sought a similar Wi-Fi sharing deal with the coffee house overseas but has yet to reach an agreement.

From what I heard, Steve said "Ask Starbucks, they love the UK". To me that said that it's something Starbucks are working on rather than it's something Apple couldn't reach an agreement about. Perhaps Steve felt like it was out of his hands and now it's down to Starbucks. It seemed clear at the last special event that Starbucks were very keen to be involved with Apple.

[Haggar]

He said most of today's 3G devices have battery lives that span only 2 to 3 hours, compared to the iPhone's average 8 hours.

After making the iPhone without an easily user replaceable battery, Steve still wants to bitch about 3G battery consumption?

[Booga]

Originally Posted by Haggar

After making the iPhone without an easily user replaceable battery, Steve still wants to bitch about 3G battery consumption?

So your solution to the 3G power consumption problem is to have the user swap out their cellphone battery every 2 hours? Let's just say I'm glad it's Apple doing the product design.

[gugy]

Originally Posted by Booga

So your solution to the 3G power consumption problem is to have the user swap out their cellphone battery every 2 hours? Let's just say I'm glad it's Apple doing the product design.

[Ireland]

The battery life a 3G chip would consume in the iPhone is likely true, but it still sucks. 2008 here we come. No excuse for not having 16Gb though.

[Gustav]

Now for all of you UK iPhone buyers - if you are not prepared to accept a price drop in two months, please wait two months before purchasing your iPhone.

[Haggar]

Originally Posted by Booga

So your solution to the 3G power consumption problem is to have the user swap out their cellphone battery every 2 hours? Let's just say I'm glad it's Apple doing the product design.

So your solution to the 3G power consumption problem is to use slower outdated technology and seal the battery inside to prevent users from replacing it themselves?

[Ti Fighter]

Originally Posted by Booga

So your solution to the 3G power consumption problem is to have the user swap out their cellphone battery every 2 hours? Let's just say I'm glad it's Apple doing the product design.

Well it would certianly help the situation. Also let's not forget there are plenty of 3G phones that last a whole day using phone/music/net/email on one charge. My moto q being one. While I wish it would last longer than a day it's certianly a whole lot better than 2 hours. The iPhone is a power hog, it's power needs are greater than battery technology, edge is the compromise. 3g chips need to be designed better, batteries need to be designed better, and apple needs to design the phone better.

[TenoBell]

Yes I would count battery life as more important than data speed. Especially with the option to use WiFi which is even faster and consumes less power than both 3G and EDGE.

[Rot'nApple]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

The Apple boss was seemingly more willing to discuss the company's stance on iPhone unlocks and third-party application development. "This is constant cat-and-mouse game," he said of the ongoing attempts to untether the handset from its intended carriers. "[P]eople are going to try and break in and it's our job to try and stop them."

Jobs also left the door open for a 3G version of the iPhone somewhere down the line, but maintained that current 3G chipsets are "power hogs." He said most of today's 3G devices have battery lives that span only 2 to 3 hours, compared to the iPhone's average 8 hours. "We've got to see the battery lives for 3G get back up into the 5+ hour range," he said. "Hopefully we'll see that late next year."

So, I guess Apple will attempt via iPhone firmware software updates to make any iPhone unlock antiquated and useless. Unless you keep purchasing the latest and greatest unlock software or whatever. That can become expensive and who wants to deal with that "cat and mouse" garbage!

My current cell phone is not 3G. I don't think there is 3G service anywhere in my hometown from any provider. It seems there is some agreement that 3G is a huge power consumer on the battery. Anyone out there with a variety of cell phones from different phone makers who can tell me what their experience with battery life with a 3G phone is? I mean, if 3G is the latest and greatest that everyone seems to demand, why is battery life so short. Who wants it? It's like the first electric car that only goes 80 miles on a full battery charge. Forget that!!! Or when the VCR wars were in full bloom, Beta vs VHS, where Beta provided better recording but less time to record on the blank tape versus the VHS blank tape. Will 3G come out with better power consumption sooner rather than later?

Who thinks reports of a 3G iPhone will be out in the first quarter or so of 2008 versus Steve Job's comments of "We've got to see the battery lives for 3G get back up into the 5+ hour range," he said. "Hopefully we'll see that late next year." How late??? late summer August/September or late fall October/November/December?

Anyone have an idea on that?

I would like a 16GB iPhone... anyone think Apple would introduced a iPhone Generation 2 with just an increase in capacity storage without 3G, MMS or a higher megapixel camera etc.? It looks like the current model is the latest and greatest for Europe as well and not in stock until November?! What is Germany and France November as well or early 2008?? I guess no new model iPhones any time soon!!! Anyone agree or disagree?

[der passant]

Originally Posted by Haggar

So your solution to the 3G power consumption problem is to use slow outdated technology as an excuse for not having a user replaceable battery?

How about strapping two batteries back to back like a magazine on a machine gun? jeezzz

[Ti Fighter]

Originally Posted by der passant

How about strapping two batteries back to back like a magazine on a machine gun? jeezzz

why not? apple could make an extended battery, other companies do it. I would much rather have a 3g iPhone with a slight buldge on the back than an edge phone who's battery life isn't even that great.

[Marsattack]

Originally Posted by Rot'nApple

So, I guess Apple will attempt via iPhone firmware software updates to make any iPhone unlock antiquated and useless. Unless you keep purchasing the latest and greatest unlock software or whatever. That can become expensive and who wants to deal with that "cat and mouse" garbage!

My current cell phone is not 3G. I don't think there is 3G service anywhere in my hometown from any provider. It seems there is some agreement that 3G is a huge power consumer on the battery. Anyone out there with a variety of cell phones from different phone makers who can tell me what their experience with battery life with a 3G phone is? I mean, if 3G is the latest and greatest that everyone seems to demand, why is battery life so short. Who wants it? It's like the first electric car that only goes 80 miles on a full battery charge. Forget that!!! Or when the VCR wars were in full bloom, Beta vs VHS, where Beta provided better recording but less time to record on the blank tape versus the VHS blank tape. Will 3G come out with better power consumption sooner rather than later?

Who thinks reports of a 3G iPhone will be out in the first quarter or so of 2008 versus Steve Job's comments of "We've got to see the battery lives for 3G get back up into the 5+ hour range," he said. "Hopefully we'll see that late next year." How late??? late summer August/September or late fall October/November/December?

Anyone have an idea on that?

I would like a 16GB iPhone... anyone think Apple would introduced a iPhone Generation 2 with just an increase in capacity storage without 3G, MMS or a higher megapixel camera etc.? It looks like the current model is the latest and greatest for Europe as well and not in stock until November?! What is Germany and France November as well or early 2008?? I guess no new model iPhones any time soon!!! Anyone agree or disagree?

I don't know, but I seem to remember another site quoting Jobs like this: "...Hopefully we'll see that late(r) next year." Late(r) as in not Lat(e). See there's a big difference ...isn't it?!
Later next year would imply that it was "later, come next year" instead of "late next year" as in the end of 2008... I think it was Slashgear that quoted him like that, or Engadget...

[drhamad]

Originally Posted by Ti Fighter

why not? apple could make an extended battery, other companies do it. I would much rather have a 3g iPhone with a slight buldge on the back than an edge phone who's battery life isn't even that great.

You might, but Apple won't. Do you ever see them say "we'll take the ugly but functional way"?

Not to mention, user replaceable batteries mean less charge per battery because they need packaging & protection.

[Haggar]

Originally Posted by der passant

How about strapping two batteries back to back like a magazine on a machine gun? jeezzz

And knowing Apple, they would just take the existing iPhone battery, cut it in half, and then say that the iPhone now has double the batteries. jeezzz

[fuyutsuki]

It's not unlimited data by the way. As reported by Engadget at the event:

10:24 - Q: What's the contract length, and does unlimited usage truly mean unlimited?

Matthew: "18 months contract. There is a limit: 1,400 internet pages per day would break the deal as part of fair usage agreement."

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/18/l...ent-in-london/


And I agree with Hardmac's view:

What the heck does "1400 internet pages a day" mean? Like 1400 hits? My opinion is they came up with a daily MB limit and "converted" it in a number of web pages based on some arbitrary page weight... so that people would go "1400 pages a day is quite a lot" instead of "WTF? only XXXMB per day???".


Thanks O2. Way to make up for the Wi-Fi tie-in which (looking at their map) is less than useful in many cities.

[TitoC]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

The Apple boss was seemingly more willing to discuss the company's stance on iPhone unlocks and third-party application development. "This is constant cat-and-mouse game," he said of the ongoing attempts to untether the handset from its intended carriers. "[P]eople are going to try and break in and it's our job to try and stop them."

Meanwhile, Jobs acknowledged that third-party developers have started to produce several intriguing, yet unofficial iPhone applications. He said Apple is looking at some of them closely"

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

Apple takes a neutral stance - they're not going to stop anyone from writing apps, and they're not going to maliciously design software updates to break the native apps, but they're not going to care if their software updates accidentally break the native apps either. - Greg Joswiak.

I'm finding these comments by Jobs as well as Greg Joswiak interesting. I think what we have here is Apple thinking of these 3rd party developers in 2 camps: One is the developers making Apps for the iPhone and the other are the developers creating hacks for unlocking the iPhone to other carriers.

I don't think they are necessarily putting both of these types of developers in the same camp.

It looks like Apple isn't too concerned about iPhone App developers and is actually interested in seeing what these guys are coming up with but are doing everything they can to stop the "unlocking" developers as this gets them flak from AT&T as well as any European carrier that does business with them.

[noirdesir]

Originally Posted by Rot'nApple

So, I guess Apple will attempt via iPhone firmware software updates to make any iPhone unlock antiquated and useless. Unless you keep purchasing the latest and greatest unlock software or whatever. That can become expensive and who wants to deal with that "cat and mouse" garbage!

http://www.blogiphone.fr/2007/08/19/...oquer-liphone/

Sorry it's in French. In short, you first clone those parameters of any AT&T SIM that Apple uses to check whether you are using an AT&T SIM onto that SIM shell and than put any SIM inside that shell. You are not changing anything on the phone itself you are just fooling it into believing it has an actual AT&T SIM inside. You still have to activate the phone, though.

[Ti Fighter]

Originally Posted by drhamad

You might, but Apple won't. Do you ever see them say "we'll take the ugly but functional way"?

Not to mention, user replaceable batteries mean less charge per battery because they need packaging & protection.

doesn't have to be ugly, really a fraction of an inch more would not hurt.

[johnnygill]

When asked whether Apple would share Wi-Fi iTunes Store revenues with carriers in the same way that carriers share service revenues with Apple, Jobs said, "We're not going to go into it, but if it's using the network you can conceptually imagine that it might make sense."

I thought Apple's Wi-Fi iTunes Store would ONLY be accessible over wi-fi ... So, it sounds to me like the iPhone is NOT using the carriers' network, and therefore there would be no sharing of revenue.

Other thoughts?

[Haggar]

Originally Posted by der passant

How about strapping two batteries back to back like a magazine on a machine gun? jeezzz

Would this be one of those Apple machine guns which do not have user replaceable bullets?

[ouragan]

The Apple boss was seemingly more willing to discuss the company's stance on iPhone unlocks and third-party application development. "This is constant cat-and-mouse game," he said of the ongoing attempts to untether the handset from its intended carriers. "[P]eople are going to try and break in and it's our job to try and stop them."

Steve Jobs is so greedy!!! What he wants to do is illegal as it denies the ownership of iPhone buyers. Apple VP of Legal Affairs should instruct Steve Jobs that:

1) Apple is breaking consumer protection laws in preventing consumers from choosing a phone carrier for the phones they buy and own;

2) Apple is likely breaking the laws against false advertising;

3) Apple is breaking antitrust laws because tied sales are illegal in that a seller cannot tie the sale of a product, the iPhone, with a service, the ATT or O2 cell phone service;

4) Apple signed a contract which cannot be enforced against iPhone buyers without breaking the law, especially the right of every owner to choose what he wants to do with what he owns, as iPhones are sold, not leased;

5) Apple will damage its image with consumers by breaking the law to enforce a contract that cannot be enforced, just as Apple damaged its image with investors by paying a $650 million bonus to Steve Jobs in 2006, making him the highest paid CEO on the planet.

[caliminius]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Yes I would count battery life as more important than data speed. Especially with the option to use WiFi which is even faster and consumes less power than both 3G and EDGE.

Isn't Jobs' comment about the short battery life somewhat of a half-truth? I could see the battery life being shortened to 2-3 hours if someone were constantly using 3G, but how often is someone going to be doing that? I believe my current Verizon phone has 3G (EVDO is a 3G network, correct?). It will last a couple of days without needing recharged since I don't use the 3G network (nor is it disabled in anyway, just not actively used). I'd imagine that most places you're going to use the iPhone long term would be the same places you could have wi-fi and 3G usage would still be pretty limited (just like EDGE) to short spans between wi-fi hotspots. The iPhone battery life would also be helped if Apple allowed real applications on the phone (thus not requiring "apps" to be using the data network).

Just seems at times Jobs likes to pull excuses out of his a**. Like the previous lame excuse explaining why no 3rd party apps allowed on the phone because it could bring down the AT&T network (if the AT&T network is that fragile, they shouldn't be running a cellular network in the first place).

[Haggar]

Originally Posted by Ti Fighter

doesn't have to be ugly, really a fraction of an inch more would not hurt.

I've seen some third party extended phone batteries which include a replacement battery cover that matches the larger size of the battery. So users could have a choice of installing a standard battery with a standard flat cover, or an extended battery with a slightly protruding cover.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by Ti Fighter

why not? apple could make an extended battery, other companies do it. I would much rather have a 3g iPhone with a slight buldge on the back than an edge phone who's battery life isn't even that great.

I would much rather not.

See, that's the issue that a company such as Apple has to deal with.... damned if they do/don't.

[OriginalMacRat]

"[P]eople are going to try and break in and it's our job to try and stop them."

Huh?

It's Apple's job to LIMIT use of their product?

This whole locking business is like limiting the Mac to only work with RoadRunner Cable internet.

[segastyle]

Originally Posted by caliminius

Isn't Jobs' comment about the short battery life somewhat of a half-truth? I could see the battery life being shortened to 2-3 hours if someone were constantly using 3G, but how often is someone going to be doing that? I believe my current Verizon phone has 3G (EVDO is a 3G network, correct?). It will last a couple of days without needing recharged since I don't use the 3G network (nor is it disabled in anyway, just not actively used). I'd imagine that most places you're going to use the iPhone long term would be the same places you could have wi-fi and 3G usage would still be pretty limited (just like EDGE) to short spans between wi-fi hotspots. The iPhone battery life would also be helped if Apple allowed real applications on the phone (thus not requiring "apps" to be using the data network).

Just seems at times Jobs likes to pull excuses out of his a**. Like the previous lame excuse explaining why no 3rd party apps allowed on the phone because it could bring down the AT&T network (if the AT&T network is that fragile, they shouldn't be running a cellular network in the first place).

actually, 3g vs. edge can make a huge impact on talk time, because even though you are not downloading data (as in a web page) you are talking on that network. AnandTech has an article about 3g vs edge battery life on a samsung blackjack:
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3036

for just talk time, on 3g a blackjack got 251 minutes, but on edge got 525 minutes. that's a huge disparity. in other cases the difference was much less and in some cases (email) even better for 3g than edge.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by Ti Fighter

doesn't have to be ugly, really a fraction of an inch more would not hurt.

This is a completely subjective view. But obviously a common one from the looks of the N95 and such. But the problem is, the N95 et. al do not seem to have done all that well since introduction. (I could be wrong about that, but nobody seems to provide data on their consumer uptake. OTOH, we know that somewhere between 1.0 and 1.2 million iPhone have already been sold in the US).

I think thinness in form factor has generally had more success in the consumer electronic product marketplace.

No offense intended to anyone, but from a design/looks standpoint, most people think that "thin is cool."

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Haggar

Would this be one of those Apple machine guns which do not have user replaceable bullets?

A good point, well made.

That's one of the best posts I've read in a long time.

[Haggar]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

I would much rather not.

See, that's the issue that a company such as Apple has to deal with.... damned if they do/don't.

It would not be an issue if users could change both the battery and the battery cover. Users could buy standard batteries for use with the standard flat cover, or extended batteries for use with a bulging battery cover. Apple could include both types of battery covers with the iPhone, or sell the bulging battery cover separately.

[Messiah]

So the big question is, why only the 8GB model?

[TenoBell]

Isn't Jobs' comment about the short battery life somewhat of a half-truth? I could see the battery life being shortened to 2-3 hours if someone were constantly using 3G, but how often is someone going to be doing that?

Many of the functions of the iPhone use the data network. So the phone would always need to be connected. If you cut the data network off Visual Voicemail and most of the apps would no longer work.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by Messiah

So the big question is, why only the 8GB model?

Because they've already ordered the parts, started the production/assembly/testing?

And, many many '000s of jobs and many many millions of dollars are at stake with those commitments already entered into?

[vinney57]

Originally Posted by Messiah

So the big question is, why only the 8GB model?

Er, because that's the only model they make?

[lfmorrison]

Originally Posted by ouragan

Steve Jobs is so greedy!!! What he wants to do is illegal as it denies the ownership of iPhone buyers. Apple VP of Legal Affairs should instruct Steve Jobs that:

1) Apple is breaking consumer protection laws in preventing consumers from choosing a phone carrier for the phones they buy and own;

NO!

I'm not comfortable talking about the situation in the UK, but in the USA, no manufacturer or network operator is legally obliged to facilitate network interoperability. They can offer an unlocking service if they want to, or they can choose not to provide the service.

The general consensus, though, is that you are protected against legal action by the Big Boys if you've done nothing more than achieve network interoperability on your own without their help.

However, the Big Boys might choose to change the mechanism by which the SIM lock is enforced, thereby undoing previous attempts to unlock the phone. (Remember, nobody's forcing you to apply all the latest firmware updates.)

This whole argument is hilarious coming from a fellow Canadian, where network interoperability simply does not exist, because the vast majority of phones (pretty much everything other than Rogers-Fido) are SIM-free, CDMA phones which can never be activated with carriers other than the one from which it was originally purchased.

[vinney57]

Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat

"[P]eople are going to try and break in and it's our job to try and stop them."

Huh?

It's Apple's job to LIMIT use of their product?

This whole locking business is like limiting the Mac to only work with RoadRunner Cable internet.

No. It's Steve's job to make it look as if they are making an effort to limit use; to appease their network partners who are paying Apple large amounts of money for the privalege of working for them.

[Bregalad]

Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat

"[P]eople are going to try and break in and it's our job to try and stop them."

Huh?

It's Apple's job to LIMIT use of their product?

This whole locking business is like limiting the Mac to only work with RoadRunner Cable internet.

Apple has managed to do what nobody thought possible: get a share of revenue from their cell phone "partners". Obviously they want to protect that income.

On the flip side, they know that people in places like Vermont, where AT&T doesn't offer service, are buying iPhones. Add all the iPhones heading north to Canada or across the oceans and there's a substantial number of sales that are directly tied to the possibility of unlocking them. If Apple tries too hard to lock down the iPhone those sales are going to dry up.

So the best course of action for Apple is to continue the cat-and-mouse game, but not try too hard.

[vinney57]

Originally Posted by ouragan

Steve Jobs is so greedy!!! What he wants to do is illegal as it denies the ownership of iPhone buyers. Apple VP of Legal Affairs should instruct Steve Jobs that:

1) Apple is breaking consumer protection laws in preventing consumers from choosing a phone carrier for the phones they buy and own;

2) Apple is likely breaking the laws against false advertising;

3) Apple is breaking antitrust laws because tied sales are illegal in that a seller cannot tie the sale of a product, the iPhone, with a service, the ATT or O2 cell phone service;

4) Apple signed a contract which cannot be enforced against iPhone buyers without breaking the law, especially the right of every owner to choose what he wants to do with what he owns, as iPhones are sold, not leased;

5) Apple will damage its image with consumers by breaking the law to enforce a contract that cannot be enforced, just as Apple damaged its image with investors by paying a $650 million bonus to Steve Jobs in 2006, making him the highest paid CEO on the planet.

You are being stupid.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by Haggar

It would not be an issue if users could change both the battery and the battery cover. Users could buy standard batteries for use with the standard flat cover, or extended batteries for use with a bulging battery cover. Apple could include both types of battery covers with the iPhone, or sell the bulging battery cover separately.

Yeah, sure. Why stop at that? Why not, say, different colors that consumers could choose from? Or a memory-add attachment that a consumer can opt to buy? Etc?

The problem is, decisions like that also have an impact on production runs, economies of scale, demand forecasting and such, esp. when the product is a completely new thing. As we saw, even the "4GB" v. "8GB" choice -- with all else identical -- ended up resulting in one redundancy, and in the process, a misstep for Apple.

There's a lot to be said for one-size-fits-all and simplicity in the design/delivery of early versions of a brand new product. These add-ons can (and will) come eventually. People are demanding of Apple too much, too soon.

Think of how the iPod evolved over time: from 5GB to 160GB; from 2-3 hours of battery life to 15-25 hours; from one size to multiple sizes; etc.