Steve Jobs keen on a world where people share WiFi

[AppleInsider]

Apple chief executive Steve Jobs is reportedly "very interested" in a world where people share their WiFi connections in return for free access to other wireless hotspots in their communities, and recently met with the founder of upstart provider FON, whose business aims might just dovetail with the iPhone maker.

Jobs had previously read about FON, the latest venture of Argentinean new media entrepreneur Martin Varsavsky, which launched in November 2005 under mantra "WiFi for everyone." It sells routers that have been designed to enable subscribers to share their home WiFi access in a more secure manner by splitting a traditional WiFi signal into two separate channels -- one for broadband internet access and another to share with fellow subscribers.

Backed by the likes of Google, Skype and Sequoia Capital, FON rose quickly to claim the title of the world’s largest WiFi community, surpassing T-Mobile of Germany within its first year in business. Appreciative of its success, Jobs expressed interest in a sit-down with Varsavsky, which eventually took place earlier this month in Jobs' top-floor office at Apple headquarters in Cupertino.

"He was very interested in FON; the meeting went on for an hour and a half," said Varsavsky, who described Jobs as appearing "trim" and "fit" in his ripped blue jeans and black hooded sweatshirt. "He's extremely curious. He asks a lot of questions. He's not the nicest guy -- I mean his questions are inquisit [sic] to say the least. He's to the point."

FON's community is comprised of two types of members or "Foneros," called "Linuses" and "Bills." Both are registered FON users who share bandwidth with other Foneros and in return get free WiFi roaming on all FON Spots throughout the FON Community around the world. Unlike a Linus, however, a Bill receives money from FON when Aliens -- or unregistered users -- purchase FON Passes that FON sells on their FON Spot.

"I really think [Jobs] liked the idea of FON. I think he loves the idea of a world where people share WiFi. That I could tell," Varsavsky said. "I think he would like for there to be an opporunity for everyone to share WiFi."

Unlike traditional WiFi routers, FON's "La Fonera" hardware solves security issues by creating both a private and a public network. It protects the user’s connection with two secured WiFi signals: one encrypted WiFi signal that is only for the user’s own private use, and a second one that requires authentication and is for all other registered Foneros.

"Overall, I would say it was a very positive meeting that started as a difficult one and ended up with more comfort and great deal of understanding on the part of Steve and his two other colleges of him who were at the meeting on what FON was like," Varsavsky added.



Earlier this month, FON and British Telecom struck a landmark deal that could potentially open the floodgates for further adoption of FON over in Europe. As part of the arrangement, British Telecom agreed to flash FON's software on all its Total Broadband Wi-Fi routers in the U.K., inviting 3 million more customers to opt into the FON Service. The announcement came just days after France's Neuf Cegetel launched a similar partnership with FON, whereby 600,000 Neuf WiFi boxes throughout France were flashed with FON software.

Apple, of course, sells its own brand of AirPort WiFi routers. However, Jobs's interest in FON may be driven by the prospect of ubiquitous WiFi access for owners of his company's new iPhone and iPod Touch handhelds.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[sworthy]

I wonder if any hardware changes are necessary, or if Apple could just make the change in software to support FON.

[Bageljoey]

I like this idea--I hope Apple gets behind it if it can done with full security (which it sounds like it can).

I also like this guy's assessment of Jobs--it seems spot on. An intense guy you want to work with if you see things the same way, but not the guy you want to drink a beer with. (He'll never be president of the US--that seems to be what most voters want in a prez.)

[Bageljoey]

Originally Posted by sworthy

I wonder if any hardware changes are necessary, or if Apple could just make the change in software to support FON.

It sounds like hardware to me. from the article:

Unlike traditional WiFi routers, FON's "La Fonera" hardware solves security issues by creating both a private and a public network. It protects the user’s connection with two secured WiFi signals:

[CREB]

I can only wonder whether this keenest on Jobs part is a result of the prospective gPhone, by Google, and how Google is alining itself in the market?

[eddyk]

As far as I know, here in Belgium, most broadband contracts don't allow to share a DSL connection with other people let alone sell connection time

[LeMarsu]

As you know BT have teamed up with FON and I think that is a great idea and attractive offer

http://www.btfon.com/

[deep]

Originally Posted by Bageljoey

It sounds like hardware to me. from the article:

I think he meant on the Apple device side (iPhone/Touch/x).

[Addison]

I Britain the Police have been arresting people for "Stealing airtime" it's not actually an offence but they just charge them under the computer missuse act. I don't know what even Mr Jobs can do about that!

[marshall]

As a FON user, I have to say that it really is a great system. Small, inexpensive, and simple enough that your mom/grandma could set it up without help. The quantity of FON hotspots is a bit limited in the US, and their map to find hotspots could use some work, but they have updated several times since I joined two years ago, and progress is being made.

I have been recommending them to all the people who come up and ask me what they need to do to get wireless in their house. (Really, it would be best if businesses in downtown areas used them, as the number of people benefiting would be greater, but I do get people logged in to mine at home on occasion).

[dfwapple]

http://counternotions.com/2007/10/26/sj-meeting-video/

[backtomac]

I hope Sj browses this forum and especially this thread.

There's this thing called WiMAX. Have you heard of it? It being pushed by your buddy Paul over at Intel. They're even going to support it on the next chipset for the iPhone.

You really ought to give it a look.

[zacamjo]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

...the latest venture of Argentinean new media entrepreneur Martin Varsavsky...

It's ARGENTINE, not "Argentinean". Lived in BA for 4 yrs and wish people would get this right. Everything does not have to end in "an" (Chilean, American, Peruvian, Uruguayan, Brazillian, etc.)

[Fishyesque]

Yikes. Welcome to the forums.

[dr_lha]

Originally Posted by zacamjo

It's ARGENTINE, not "Argentinean". Lived in BA for 4 yrs and wish people would get this right. Everything does not have to end in "an" (Chilean, American, Peruvian, Uruguayan, Brazillian, etc.)

Actually both forms are correct (except its spelled Argentinian). Look it up in your Apple dictionary if you don't believe me.

[SpamSandwich]

Originally Posted by backtomac

I hope Sj browses this forum and especially this thread.

There's this thing called WiMAX. Have you heard of it? It being pushed by your buddy Paul over at Intel. They're even going to support it on the next chipset for the iPhone.

You really ought to give it a look.

I like WiMax also (being a CLWR stockholder), but line of sight is a big issue. It will keep WiMax from widespread adoption in cities.

[acslater017]

also, "colleges" = "colleagues"?

just trying to be helpful

[Clive At Five]

Originally Posted by sworthy

I wonder if any hardware changes are necessary, or if Apple could just make the change in software to support FON.

I'm wondering if this could be simulated via software, although I'm sure it wouldn't be as secure as if it would be two seperate modules.

-Clive

[Bageljoey]

Originally Posted by deep

I think he meant on the Apple device side (iPhone/Touch/x).

Ahhhh, I thought he was refering to the AirPort side of things--broadcasting the connection.

In terms of the device side I assume it would adhere to standards so as to have the widest possible reach. But I don't know...

[zorinlynx]

One of the problems with sharing your net connection freely over WiFi is liability.

What if some disturbed individual parks in front of your house and uses your open WiFi to download child pornography onto his laptop? Some server out there will have *YOUR* IP as the address that downloaded the data.

When the server gets busted, the authorities will come after YOU for child porn. Do you really want to deal with that?

A less extreme example would be your neighbor running p2p file sharing all day, causing you to get one of those threat letters from the RIAA.

That's the problem with being generous with your connection. Anything illegal done on it by "war drivers" can come back to haunt you later.

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

I like WiMax also (being a CLWR stockholder), but line of sight is a big issue. It will keep WiMax from widespread adoption in cities.

I may be asking for a lot but what will really unlock the potential of the iPhone is having a 'wireless' signal anywhere, anytime with speeds that are equivalent to todays wireless networks (802.11g).

Don't know about the line of sight issue with WiMAX but it looks like the only thing available that will get us there.

[Fishyesque]

@ zorinlynx

That is an interesting point... I wonder what they think about that, as I'm sure they've thought of it..

[marshall]

@zorinlynx

The media make a big deal out of child porn and people sitting outside your house doing obscene things, but I still manage to have a little faith in people. If the vast majority of people who might want my bandwidth are like me, they just want to check their mail, get a map, or check the weather forecast while they are on the road. If there is a hotel nearby, they usually have wifi now, but sometimes wardriving is faster.

FON is partnering with Skype too, so you can tack making a phone call onto the list if I ever get around to picking up one of those wifi phones.

Not that depravity doesn't exist, and any shared system is prone to abuse, but hopefully there are still more good people than bad in this world. If you are worried, the login screen for the FON access point is customizable; you could have it say something to the effect of "anyone caught downloading pictures of little kids in front of my house will face serious physical consequences."

[millertime416]

Man, this has to be driving the boys over at NBC Universal nuts. First, Steve Jobs tries to provide an easy to use consumer friendly media service. And now, he wants to help provide increased low-cost internet access. I thought this guy was an executive of a major corporation. Where is his profit hungry, power grabbing sense of propriety.

[Fishyesque]

@marshall

Excellent point. I too have some faith left.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by Bageljoey

It sounds like hardware to me. from the article:

I think a virtual second AP can be done in software without having to have two AP radios in a box or add an AP in a separate box, but you have to have access to the firmware anyway. Some AP/rounters have open firmware, but they don't seem to be that common these days. It's easier to just supply the box and few would know the difference.

Whether the ISPs will go along with the idea is a different question.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

I like WiMax also (being a CLWR stockholder), but line of sight is a big issue. It will keep WiMax from widespread adoption in cities.

That's kind of why I'm hoping that it would be used with the 700MHz spectrum, which I think is compatible. I thought the original idea was that a WiMax point would take the same slice of spectrum as one channel of TV and offer it as internet service.

[Lafe]

@zorinlynx

What happens on the 'public' connection is not your problem.

[mdriftmeyer]

"He's extremely curious. He asks a lot of questions. He's not the nicest guy -- I mean his questions are inquisit [sic] to say the least. He's to the point."

Did he think the visit was a social call? Hello! Steve didn't get where he sits by just shootin' the shit.

The man is probing the guy and his business model. He's trying to figure out how to either buy the company or implement a strategy that will be compatible with their services or Google's for that matter.

[GregAlexander]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Apple, of course, sells its own brand of AirPort WiFi routers.

Apple doesn't just sell their own wifi router/switches... they sell a whole lot of computers with wifi built in, some of which don't enable that wifi. Every iMac out there that's connected via ethernet could offer the option "become a FON access point".

Originally Posted by zorinlynx

One of the problems with sharing your net connection freely over WiFi is liability.

If they're anything like the NZ outfit "Tomizone" (who do the same thing) - they log who is connected on your wifi access point at any time. Although that doesn't prove they were the ones downloading, it does prove that there were other connected people at that time.

Originally Posted by sworthy

I wonder if any hardware changes are necessary, or if Apple could just make the change in software to support FON.

Tomizone only requires a software update to their Routers. Appleinsider says BT can roll out a firmware update to all routers.. so it's software.

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

However, Jobs's interest in FON may be driven by the prospect of ubiquitous WiFi access for owners of his company's new iPhone and iPod Touch handhelds.

Yes it would be excellent for that. As an iPhone user - enable FON on your iMac or Airport, or buy the "new Apple iPhone Access Point (with FON)" and access WiFi anywhere another iPhone user (or Mac user) lives

[teckstud]

Then he must embrace the Zune- HAHA!

[bodypainter]

mr "every ringtone costs extra" steve jobs, the man who invented the total-ripp-off iphone contracts is not interested in a free wifi community? sorry, but my bells ring - i can not believe that jobs is interested in something that is free and should STAY free...

[bsenka]

Originally Posted by zorinlynx

One of the problems with sharing your net connection freely over WiFi is liability.

What if some disturbed individual parks in front of your house and uses your open WiFi to download child pornography onto his laptop? Some server out there will have *YOUR* IP as the address that downloaded the data.

When the server gets busted, the authorities will come after YOU for child porn. Do you really want to deal with that?

A less extreme example would be your neighbor running p2p file sharing all day, causing you to get one of those threat letters from the RIAA.

That's the problem with being generous with your connection. Anything illegal done on it by "war drivers" can come back to haunt you later.

This could be a good thing. It will up the burden of proof to a level that it should already be. It doesn't matter what IP address was used, you still need proof of who actually did the thing they are accussed of. I lend my car to my buddy, and he gets in an accident, he gets charged, not me.

[GregAlexander]

Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer

Did he think the visit was a social call? Hello! Steve didn't get where he sits by just shootin' the shit.

The man is probing the guy and his business model. He's trying to figure out how to either buy the company or implement a strategy that will be compatible with their services or Google's for that matter.

He wasn't complaining in the least. He says lots of good things about Steve - and then twice he says he's not the nicest guy and once in spanish he's not "sympatico" (sympathetic). I got the feeling that he wanted to say something like "Steve's not all buddy-buddy, he didn't treat me like an old friend - rather Steve was inquisitive and asked pointed questions"

I hope the quotes of Steve not being the nicest don't get misinterpreted too much! If you watch the video it makes more sense.

[abrooks]

Originally Posted by bodypainter

mr "every ringtone costs extra" steve jobs, the man who invented the total-ripp-off iphone contracts is not interested in a free wifi community? sorry, but my bells ring - i can not believe that jobs is interested in something that is free and should STAY free...

Let me straighten something out for you.

Ringtones cost extra because the music industry says they have too.

iPhone contracts are expensive because Apple *not Steve Jobs* is raping phone companies by taking profits from the sale of the phone, thus causing the carriers to up prices of the contracts to help make some money.

[abrooks]

Originally Posted by bsenka

This could be a good thing. It will up the burden of proof to a level that it should already be. It doesn't matter what IP address was used, you still need proof of who actually did the thing they are accussed of. I lend my car to my buddy, and he gets in an accident, he gets charged, not me.

If that was the case then every criminal in the world would be pulling that excuse.

[monstrosity]

Originally Posted by bodypainter

mr "every ringtone costs extra" steve jobs, the man who invented the total-ripp-off iphone contracts is not interested in a free wifi community? sorry, but my bells ring - i can not believe that jobs is interested in something that is free and should STAY free...

you dont know steve, his business or his philosophies very well then.
"every ringtone costs extra" that is content providers conditions of trade(not steve jobs).

Other than a proprietary top layer of an operating system, much if not most of Apple technologies rely on open systems. Far much more than people give Apple credit for.

[iPilya]

To: SpamSandwich and others

Not sure how it is in other areas, but CLWR is not WiMax (at least not so in Seattle - but soon to be upgraded).

The big problem I see with WiMax in the iPhone is battery consumption. I remember reading through industry papers on WiMax before its ratification.. and I am sure battery consumption is still much worst then 3g. Curious to know what the real world battery consumption is for WiFi users...

I agree with everyone stating concerns about the legal aspect. A federal law would need to be passed in order to address this issue and place responsibility on the appropriate entity. Fat chance I guess concerning how much lobbying would go on to block this.

Btw - this would not be a hardware change.... The article clearly states that they are flash/firmware updates. It sounds like a very simple process of providing two separate networks on a single router... one being secured.. while the other being open... both on different channels. I would assume (and hope) that they do some sort of usage priority so lechers dont pull too much of your bandwidth.

[GregAlexander]

Originally Posted by iPilya

I would assume (and hope) that they do some sort of usage priority so lechers dont pull too much of your bandwidth.

In countries where we have a download limit (mine is 7GB), I'd really like to make sure that the hypothetical neighbour, who may have is own FON access point, doesn't connect to me instead when he downloads torrents...using up all my bandwidth.

I'd hope I could prevent people from using torrents. I'd also like to restrict anyone connected to a maximum of eg:150MB/day. (If they want to permanently use my access point, lets have a chat and I'll upgrade my quota and they can pay half!)

Otherwise what's to stop me from getting a hellishly slow but very cheap ADSL connection which I share using FON, and then using neighbour's high speed and download quota? Apart from my high ethics!

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by bodypainter

mr "every ringtone costs extra" steve jobs, the man who invented the total-ripp-off iphone contracts is not interested in a free wifi community? sorry, but my bells ring - i can not believe that jobs is interested in something that is free and should STAY free...

Obviously, your ignorance is superseded by your rudeness.