T-Mobile Germany ordered to allow iPhone use on rival carriers

[AppleInsider]

A court order handed down Monday against Deutsche Telekom mobile arm T-Mobile demands that iPhone be sold in Germany unlocked and without a two-year contract, the Wall Street Journal clarifies.

The German carrier has been given to the close of business on Wednesday to alter its marketing (subscription required) of the Apple handset to reflect the Court's demands. The change in conditions will reportedly be valid until another hearing before a Hamburg court, which is expected in two weeks.

For its part, however, T-Mobile is standing firm, claiming that its marketing model for the iPhone is correct. In a statement Tuesday, it said that sales of the Apple handset are continuing and that it reserves the right to claim damages from Vodafone.

As was reported yesterday, T-Mobile rival Vodafone Deutschland filed for the motion because it wants the German court to review T-Mobile's exclusive marketing rights to the iPhone in Germany, which it believes are in breach of local German laws.

"We're not taking any plans to replicate these actions anywhere else, or in the U.K.," a Vodafone spokesman told the Journal. "It's a different regulatory environment."

Specifically, Vodafone is objecting to the iPhone being restricted for use only on T-Mobile networks and also questions T-Mobile's fare packages for the iPhone, which are limited to just three.

Vodafone Deutschland chief executive Friedrich Joussen was quoted on Monday as saying his firm's goal was not to prevent sales of the device but rather to allow for consumers to purchase iPhones without restrictions.

"We want the iPhone to be available to everyone without being tied to a contract," he said.

Although mobile carriers have historically declined to share service revenues with handset makers, the allure of iPhone has allowed Apple to successfully do just that with AT&T Inc. in the U.S., Telefonica's O2 in the U.K. and Deutsche Telekom's T-Mobile in Germany -- garnering what is believed to be an approximate 10 percent share of service revenues in each case.

The Journal notes that Apple tried to secure a similar exclusive deal in France with France Telecom SA's mobile operator Orange, but due to French consumer law other telecommunications companies have been selling the iPhone, offering contracts with rival operators Bouygues Telecom, the telecom division of Bouygues SA, and Virgin Mobile.

In its statement Tuesday, T-Mobile Deutschland said it will oppose the preliminary injunction filed by Vodafone.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[e1618978]

No big deal, just charge $1000 for the unlocked one. How much are they charging for the unlocked one in France?

[cnocbui]

Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.

By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?

[ajmas]

Maybe Apple can change its marketing to 'enhanced usage with <name of provider>'.

The truth is that I would like to see things like visual voice mail be submitted as an extention to GSM. Apple is seeming too much like the negative side of Microsoft, in this case. Apple's attitude in this case may make more European countries bring in laws with regards to exclusivity contracts and cellphones.

The fact T-Mobile is a subsidary of an ex state telecom company (Deutsche Telecom) is likely to bring more attention to the case.

[Ireland]

Originally Posted by e1618978

No big deal, just charge $1000 for the unlocked one. How much are they charging for the unlocked one in France?

Apple needs to take their head out of their ass. The iPod wouldn't have been the success it is with this lack of vision. What's going on in France exactly? If France can get it opened up, did they? Germany may very well too. I hope this is the start of a domino effect.

[BRussell]

It's nice that a company like Vodaphone can use the law to try to harm another company, rather than just try to compete.

[e1618978]

Originally Posted by Ireland

Apple needs to take their head out of their ass. The iPod wouldn't have been the success it is with this lack of vision. What's going on in France exactly? If France can get it opened up, did they? Germany may very well too. I hope this is the start of a domino effect.

Apple is making about $600 profit per phone including the $18/month they get from the carrier - when sales drop they will drop prices, but not before sales start to drop, that would be stupid. Actually, setting the unlocked phone price at $800 or $900 would probably give them the same total margin.

[elroth]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid.

Where did you get that from? We're talking abut Germany (and France, the U.K. and the U.S.) Totally bogus statement. How about something (anything) to back that up? There is no "reprehensible greed" here - just idiots like you making up facts to suit an agenda.

[studiomusic]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.

By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?

Don't you think Apple will change when they see all those contracts waning and they start loosing money? Or, maybe, they will bring back contracts in a big way... The iphone is a market changer.

Originally Posted by e1618978

Apple is making about $600 profit per phone including the $18/month they get from the carrier - when sales drop they will drop prices, but not before sales start to drop, that would be stupid. Actually, setting the unlocked phone price at $800 or $900 would probably give them the same total margin.

Exactly. Nothing will happen if people keep buying it.

[parky]

Originally Posted by BRussell

It's nice that a company like Vodaphone can use the law to try to harm another company, rather than just try to compete.

Agreed.

It's not like people have a 'right' to buy the iPhone at all.

If I buy an XBOX the only place I can get XBOX live is from MS, so that is the same model.

I really don't see how you can force a company to 'sell' something if they don't want to.
If it has to be made availble unlocked then fine, just price it so that nobody will buy it.
iPhones can still only be sold though Apple or T-Mobile stores, Vodafone will not get the iPhone from Apple to sell themselves.

There are many handsets released in the UK which are availble on one network only.

Ian

[tripo]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?

Man you really have to start thinking !
The Mobile- Operators are the ones that think the world belongs to them ,not apple.
The thing is - without apple interfering , the quality of the service wouldn't be that good.. EVEN if it now IS not good ..it would be even worse . I guess you could imagine , so IMAGINE how MUCH the precious T-Mobile would charge you for nonstop i-net ... video downloads etc.. do you have any idea how much- A FORTUNE .
So instead of blaming Apple guys , who actually CAN deal with such EGO-firms as every single Mobile Operator worldwide is ...do remember all the times ,when you wanted to be able to change something about the Operators but instead you felt so insignificant part of the universe.
have fun !

[parky]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.

By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?

Apple have a responcibility to thier shareholders to make as much money as possible.

It seesm you are trying to argue that they should not be greedy (i.e. make money) and then on the other hand say the shareholders should question the approach. The shareholders will be very happy with the money Apple are making at the moment.

They are a business and not a charity here to give the rest of us cheap iPhones.

If you can't afford an iPhone and it's service plan then don't buy one, simple.

[csimmons]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.

By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?

An extremely silly statement.

I'm an Apple shareholder, and have no real problem with Apple making money off of the iPhone.

What's so bad about apple wanting to control the iPhone experience? What's so bad about them wanting a piece of the revenues from data plans, if it's their device the plans are being bought for?

The fact that Apple was able to get the deal that they got without having to succumb to T-Mobile's (Or AT&T / O2 / Orange for that matter) branding of the device - something that Vodafone more than likely insisted on during negotiations - makes them a helluva lot smarter than other manufacturers, whose wares are generally neutered by the carriers' insistance of modifying the software and placing their logos everywhere, yet Apple is the bad guy here? Please.

As I mentioned elsewhere on AI, if the iPhone was deemed a flop in Europe, Vodafone wouldn't have gone to the courts in the first place. They're scared. Period. A german newspaper recently put the number of Vodafone customers who bought iPhones at ca. 5000 so far. That's a lot of lost hardware revenue for Vodafone. This restraining order against T-Mobile makes them look desparate. If this is the only way they can compete, that's pretty sad indeed.

[SpinDrift]

So will Vodafone be offering Visual Voicemail and unlimited data plans to iPhone users on their network? I'm sure they won't, or if they do, they will charge a huge premium for it.

[Amorya]

Originally Posted by tripo

Man you really have to start thinking !
The Mobile- Operators are the ones that think the world belongs to them ,not apple.
The thing is - without apple interfering , the quality of the service wouldn't be that good.. EVEN if it now IS not good ..it would be even worse . I guess you could imagine , so IMAGINE how MUCH the precious T-Mobile would charge you for nonstop i-net ... video downloads etc.. do you have any idea how much- A FORTUNE .

Wrong.

You are just wrong, my friend. Before the iPhone was even announced, t-mobile had unlimited internet access available in the UK for £7.50/month. I would imagine they have similar deals in Germany.

I know that in the US Apple is doing consumers a favour with the contracts it is providing, but in Europe they are more expensive for what you get than the competition.

My housemate is trying to decide whether to get an iPhone. He's currently on £25/month (on O2) for 600 anytime minutes and 2000 evening/weekend minutes. He could add the data plan to that for £7.50, making £32.50. If he went to an iPhone contract, £35 (the closest) would get him only 200 minutes.

Amorya

[Sedicivalvole]

Not according to 02 you can not have unlimited data.

[Sedicivalvole]

Oh my god.

Is the world going mad?

If Apple want to sell there bloody phone on T Mobile only then they should be able to. Fuck Vodafone the brainless idiots they had their chance and would not play ball.

Same as some people on here, what is wrong with you?

Originally Posted by csimmons

An extremely silly statement.
The fact that Apple was able to get the deal that they got without having to succumb to T-Mobile's (Or AT&T / O2 / Orange for that matter) branding of the device - something that Vodafone more than likely insisted on during negotiations - makes them a helluva lot smarter than other manufacturers, whose wares are generally neutered by the carriers' insistance of modifying the software and placing their logos everywhere, yet Apple is the bad guy here? Please.

As I mentioned elsewhere on AI, if the iPhone was deemed a flop in Europe, Vodafone wouldn't have gone to the courts in the first place. They're scared. Period. A german newspaper recently put the number of Vodafone customers who bought iPhones at ca. 5000 so far. That's a lot of lost hardware revenue for Vodafone. This restraining order against T-Mobile makes them look desparate. If this is the only way they can compete, that's pretty sad indeed.

This guy has got the idea, maybe you like taking it from the networks. But the deal in the UK is a good one as far as I am concerned and I came from 1000 min/txt a month for £25.

Apple have started something here and the corporations are scrambling to stop it, some of you sheep are even defending them.

If you don't like AT&T or 02 etc then don't get the phone end of. Its up to you, personally I believe the state/judicial system has no place sticking its nose into this. I will now never use a Vodafone product for their disgraceful and shameful actions.

[polvadis]

Lets face it, United States is light years behind Europe and Japan in the cell phone market. Better phones, more flexible plans, and the best prepaid system I've seen.

But the abundance of the newest technology in cell phones in Europe are making me laugh at my Verizon carrier and their shitty phones;

Verizon- "Here's our newest phone. Sure it's been out for 2 maybe 3 years everywhere else, but we just barely got it to work with our proprietary system. Ohh, and by the way, we disabled all the cool stuff from it so that you may buy more shit through us".

I'm from Poland, the so called red-headed step child of Europe. If they can get all the cool phones, what the hell is US doing?

[rabber]

Originally Posted by Amorya

Wrong.

You are just wrong, my friend. Before the iPhone was even announced, t-mobile had unlimited internet access available in the UK for £7.50/month. I would imagine they have similar deals in Germany.

I know that in the US Apple is doing consumers a favour with the contracts it is providing, but in Europe they are more expensive for what you get than the competition.

My housemate is trying to decide whether to get an iPhone. He's currently on £25/month (on O2) for 600 anytime minutes and 2000 evening/weekend minutes. He could add the data plan to that for £7.50, making £32.50. If he went to an iPhone contract, £35 (the closest) would get him only 200 minutes.

Amorya

And you have just proven the best point of all. If your housemate is getting such a wonderful deal from O2, then why should he switch? If the iPhone is truly a better product, then isn't it worth paying more? I have chosen not to purchase an iPhone because I do not want to switch carriers. As long as there are enough people willing to pay AT&T for use of this phone then why should Apple bring it out for other carriers? I don't like it, but I have no legal right to complain and very little moral or business ground to stand on. If Apple sees a large enough opportunity to make money off of me and others like me, then trust me, they will.

[quinney]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

"We want the iPhone to be available to everyone without being tied to a contract," he said.

Translation: "we want people to buy iPhones and keep paying for our
service, without us having to pay Apple anything".

What a parasitic company.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by csimmons

An extremely silly statement.

I'm an Apple shareholder, and have no real problem with Apple making money off of the iPhone.

What's so bad about apple wanting to control the iPhone experience? What's so bad about them wanting a piece of the revenues from data plans, if it's their device the plans are being bought for?

I have no problem with Apple making money on the phone itself, that's fine, because it's their product, but it's not Apple that provides the service. If Apple wanted money for both, they should have set up an MVNO.

I think the tie-in is a retarded business model. Can you imagine if the only way you could buy a Mac, you had to buy two years of AOL service? Or if the only way to buy a sink and faucet is through your water supplier? Or your light bulbs through the power company? The whole business model of having to buy the phone through the provider is a regression to the days that you could only buy the phone through Ma Bell. I'm sure all of those tie-ins could be done under the banner of "controlling the experience".

[cameronj]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.

By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?

Hm... does the fact that they are selling $1100 and up PCs like gangbusters give you a hint?

[JakeBarnes]

Originally Posted by parky

Apple have a responcibility to thier shareholders to make as much money as possible.

It seesm you are trying to argue that they should not be greedy (i.e. make money) and then on the other hand say the shareholders should question the approach. The shareholders will be very happy with the money Apple are making at the moment.

They are a business and not a charity here to give the rest of us cheap iPhones.

If you can't afford an iPhone and it's service plan then don't buy one, simple.

It's called reification, Parky. Those in power, be it politicians or multinational companies, seek to create an image of permanence, stability and, perhaps most importantly, unalterability.

T-Mobile's service plan is not set in stone, though you've bought into the idea that it is, just like the suckers who bought an iPhone for $600. The fact is, their rates plan in Germany is a rip off; if it can be challenged, even by a self-serving competitor such as Vodafone, so the device can be used with other carrier's SIM cards, then surely that's good for consumers?

Wonderful how companies can engineer public opinion to where the average 'man in the street' accepts their conditions as law.

[e1618978]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

the only way to buy a sink and faucet is through your water supplier? Or your light bulbs through the power company?

Your analogy does not "hold water", heh heh heh - because the water company, in this case, is selling a sink and faucet in competition with other sinks and faucets that you can also use. The iPhone is not the only phone you can buy, there are plenty of phones that you can use with this or other providers.

Apple is free to change the Mac to only work with AOL, and force its buyers to sign up for a two year AOL contract - that is up to them. The reason that they don't do that is that it would kill their sales - the AT&T/T-Mobile/etc contracts are not killing iPhone sales, so they are free to do it if they like.

[pmcd]

Originally Posted by polvadis

Lets face it, United States is light years behind Europe and Japan in the cell phone market. Better phones, more flexible plans, and the best prepaid system I've seen.

You can't compare the 3 areas that easily. They are very different geographically. This affected the way both automobiles and phones were sold. Typically, people in the UK used to, and I guess still do, pay for local calls based on the length of the calls. This was not the case in North America were distances are far greater. The effect was that the transition to cell phones was easier. In my case I still can't bring myself to get a cell phone. I got used to unlimited usage and not having to worry about incoming calls and being charged for answering the phone. Until the cell phone companies change I won't. It seems to me that the wireless companies know they have a cash cow and are milking it for as much as they can. This doesn't mesh well with a phone that also has data transfer capabilities. I really don't think that Europe is a good analogy in this case. I should imagine Japan, where distances are also small, is similar.

philip

[studiomusic]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

I think the tie-in is a retarded business model.

And that is why you aren't the head of a huge, multinational company making big waves in all areas that you enter.

[pmjoe]

I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.

[e1618978]

Originally Posted by pmjoe

I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.

I am not an apple shareholder, btw - and if Apple's products don't benefit consumers, then consumers will stop consuming. It is a self-reinforcing cycle, and it is the best way for things to work. Apple SHOULD be free to charge whatever they like, and require whatever plan they like with purchase.

[cnocbui]

Originally Posted by elroth

Where did you get that from? We're talking abut Germany (and France, the U.K. and the U.S.) Totally bogus statement. How about something (anything) to back that up? There is no "reprehensible greed" here - just idiots like you making up facts to suit an agenda.

Well, I can back up my original claim so ipso facto the idiot in this argument is vous. perhaps you should check whether a poster has backing for their assertions before calling them an idiot next time.

And since we are talking about the introduction of the iPhone in Germany specifically and Europe in general, the prepaid situation in the US is irrelevant to the argument.

"In Europe, the vast majority of mobile subscribers are prepaid users: .....Prepaid accounts for 79% of new users in Europe, and 60% of European users overall"

http://www.callcentermagazine.com/ar...M20010822S0007

For Germany in particular:

"Since according to market surveys conducted by the PTT Regulation Authority (RegTP half-yearly report for the first half of 2000) around 80 percent of new customers and around 40 percent of all customers in the mobile phone service are already prepaid"

http://tinyurl.com/27uyo5

Note that this information is old and dates to 2000. I think it would be safe to say that with 80% of new phone sales being prepaid and 7 years on from when the data was current, prepaid phones probably predominate in the German market at the present time.

Lets rub it in a bit:

"In comparison, Italy has the highest number of prepaid users with 85 percent of its mobile consumers using prepaid services. The UK comes next with a 68 percent prepaid user base. France, Germany and Sweden all have almost 50 percent prepaid user bases."

http://www.mobilemonday.net/news/us-...ion-is-booming

This article was dated 2001 so that near 50% would now almost certainly be well over that now.

And in case anyone thinks Italy doesn't matter, it's population is about the same as the UK.

[Nicnac]

Originally Posted by BRussell

It's nice that a company like Vodaphone can use the law to try to harm another company, rather than just try to compete.

Right, it's about time the rest of the world learned the destructive 'business' practices that make the US so great.

[cnocbui]

Originally Posted by studiomusic

Don't you think Apple will change when they see all those contracts waning and they start loosing money? Or, maybe, they will bring back contracts in a big way... The iphone is a market changer.

Apple won't 'loose' money per se, they just won't make as much money as they might have done had they not locked out the pre-paid users.

The iPhone is not that great - IMO - that it will cause a sea change in the European market such that contracts come back into fashion.

[cnocbui]

Originally Posted by Nicnac

Right, it's about time the rest of the world learned the destructive 'business' practices that make the US so great.

What is the Euro -> $ exchange rate again? ;-)

[echosonic]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.

Non shareholders should just STFU. They clearly have no clue, whereas a majority of us understand the master plan. This is a two-year strategy, and no foreign nation (if Steve has anything to say about it) will be dictating a damned thing to him until that two year period has expired. AAPL has doubled over the last year thanks to Steve and crew and their strategy, and GREED IS GOOD. What is bad is when talentless cowards attempt to stigmatize or otherwise criminalize profit and success.

Originally Posted by cnocbui

By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?

1. Because they have the best product, period, and we're willing to pay for it
2. Because you have a choice: buy it or DONT buy it, nobody's forcing you
3. Because you have no right to force any private company to sell anything to suit your warped perception of right/wrong/greed/insert-random-demonization-language-here

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by studiomusic

And that is why you aren't the head of a huge, multinational company making big waves in all areas that you enter.

That's absurd. Do you fit that description?

[cnocbui]

Originally Posted by tripo

Man you really have to start thinking !
The Mobile- Operators are the ones that think the world belongs to them ,not apple.
The thing is - without apple interfering , the quality of the service wouldn't be that good.. EVEN if it now IS not good ..it would be even worse . I guess you could imagine , so IMAGINE how MUCH the precious T-Mobile would charge you for nonstop i-net ... video downloads etc.. do you have any idea how much- A FORTUNE .
So instead of blaming Apple guys , who actually CAN deal with such EGO-firms as every single Mobile Operator worldwide is ...do remember all the times ,when you wanted to be able to change something about the Operators but instead you felt so insignificant part of the universe.
have fun !

If your rambling, disjointed and illogical post is an example of 'thinking', I think I would be better off sticking to my current 'non thinking', thank you.

[echosonic]

Originally Posted by pmjoe

I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.

And we, the stockholders (aka OWNERS OF THE COMPANY), could also filter out you whiners who have such a phenominally over-inflated sense of entitlement, as if the whole bloody friggin world owes you something.

Get bent, haters, Apple has plenty of choices. People like you call it greed because you can't stand to see anybody else succeed when you know you never will.

[echosonic]

Originally Posted by cnocbui

Apple won't 'loose' money per se, they just won't make as much money as they might have done had they not locked out the pre-paid users.

The iPhone is not that great - IMO - that it will cause a sea change in the European market such that contracts come back into fashion.

Glad there are people like you who are here to decide whats good for the rest of us.

Wow, without you to define what is and isn't greed and what is or isn't bad for a company, what the heck would we do. Oh, by the way, what did you say your net worth was, and how many international corporations have you launched from a garage?

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by echosonic

And we, the stockholders (aka OWNERS OF THE COMPANY), could also filter out you whiners who have such a phenominally over-inflated sense of entitlement, as if the whole bloody friggin world owes you something.

Funny, I get that impression of Apple sometimes too. It's not a one-way street.

Originally Posted by echosonic

Oh, by the way, what did you say your net worth was, and how many international corporations have you launched from a garage?

How many international corporations have you launched from a garage? I know I haven't, but I don't think that's a good argument either.

It sounds to me that you're just along for the ride as a stock holder, not having actually done that yourself.

[echosonic]

What most of you keep forgetting (save for a select few) is that all your "wisdom" and "smartitude" is worthless with a company like Apple.

You can not, and will not, predict what they will do, unless they allow you to.

Apple does not follow trends, Apple sets them. Apple does not look at the marketplace and ask how it can conform to the status quo, Apple steps past it, and others follow.

As its been said before, Apple's iPhone is already changing the game. The rules are being re-written, get with the program or get out.

[TenoBell]

I have no problem with Apple making money on the phone itself, that's fine, because it's their product, but it's not Apple that provides the service. If Apple wanted money for both, they should have set up an MVNO.

That depends on the way Apple updates the software on the phone. I don't know of any other phone where the entire OS is updated with more features. Its possible Apple may provide more services through the provider in the future.

I think the tie-in is a retarded business model. I'm sure all of those tie-ins could be done under the banner of "controlling the experience".

You may be right. But that is the beauty of the market system. If people don't buy it then Apple will adjust. OTOH Apple has a plan for the future of the phone, we just don't know what that plan is right now. As it unfolds what Apple has done should make more sense.