France's Orange sells nearly 30,000 iPhones in five days

[AppleInsider]

Orange, the mobile arm of France Telecom, said Wednesday that it sold nearly 30,000 of Apple's iPhone in the first five days the handset was available for sale on the French market.

The combined mobile phone and internet device has been available since the 29th of November via 680 Orange storefronts, the Orange online store, and the carrier's customer services telephone sales division.

Orange had previously said that it hoped to sell nearly 100,000 iPhones by the end of the calendar year, meaning it would have needed to move a bit more than 3,000 iPhones per day through the holidays. The initial 5-day tally eases that burden somewhat, reducing the per-day sales required to meet that milestone by 300 to approximately 2,700 per day.

Of those purchasing an iPhone in France, 80 percent chose to sign up for a dedicated "Orange for iPhone" plan at the same time, according to Orange, which also offers the handset unlocked and without service contracts. Nearly 50 percent of those purchasing the Apple phone were new to Orange or migrating from a rival carrier.

"This is a very good score, especially as one in two iPhone purchases is accompanied by a new Orange line subscription", said Louis-Pierre Wenes, Executive Director in charge of Orange's France operations. "This confirms that the iPhone will make an active contribution to the acquisition of new customers."

The rate at which French consumers are adopting iPhone appears to have far outpaced those in the UK following the handset's local launch in the region on November 9th. Though Apple's exclusive UK wireless provider, O2, has not released any sales data, reports suggested that the carrier activated just 26,500 of the touch-screen handsets during its initial two-weeks on the UK market.

Like Orange, O2 has stated that it also hopes to sell 100,000 units by the close of the year.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[jpellino]

I thought France hates Apple. Did they put a picture of Jerry Lewis on every box?

[drjjones]

Originally Posted by jpellino

I thought France hates Apple. Did they put a picture of Jerry Lewis on every box?

It's microsoft they hate, not Apple. France is gonna suck up to Apple like everyone else once they get the acquired taste. Once they taste it ,,, hooked for life..

[hok]

Originally Posted by jpellino

I thought France hates Apple. Did they put a picture of Jerry Lewis on every box?

Registered just to respond...

It's Apple that hates France (like when Americans say that France hates US, when you read forums on the net it is the exact contrary). Why ?
No Apple store in France, when there is an Apple Expo in Paris the official Apple stand is quite inexistent, Steve Jobs doesn't come and there is never any new product announced (exactly when a new product is presented in an another country at not even an Apple show). Add to the fact that prices of Apple products are 20% to 40% more expensive in France…
I really wonder what make you think that ?

[S10]

Originally Posted by hok

Registered just to respond...

It's Apple that hates France (like when Americans say that France hates US, when you read forums on the net it is the exact contrary). Why ?
No Apple store in France, when there is an Apple Expo in Paris the official Apple stand is quite inexistent, Steve Jobs doesn't come and there is never any new product announced (exactly when a new product is presented in an another country at not even an Apple show). Add to the fact that prices of Apple products are 20% to 40% more expensive in France…
I really wonder what make you think that ?

What a bunch of nonsense.. Many important Apple products were presented at the Apple expo over the years. (Max Os X beta for one, the iMac G5 another) Jobs has been several times to the Expo maybe not recently, but then since 2004 he has cut down his presence significantly anyway because of his health. He was there in 2003, 2002, 2000... 2001 was cancelled due to 911. In 2005 and 2006 he didn't give a keynote but a press conference.
Apple has no Apple Store? Many countries have no Apple Sotre, does that mean Apple hates those countries too?
Apple products are more expensive in France? All tech product are more expensive in France, actually, they are more expensive anywhere in the EU compared to the US.

[tog]

Originally Posted by S10

What a bunch of nonsense.. Many important Apple products were presented at the Apple expo over the years. Jobs has been several times to the Expo, maybe not recently, but then he has cut down his presence significantly anyway.
Apple has no Apple Store? Many countries have no Apple Sotre, does that mean Aplle hates those countries too?
Apple products are more expensive in France? All tech product are more expensive in France, actually, they are more expensive anywhere in the EU compared to the US.

No, Apple's mark-up in Europe is far higher than anyone else's (just compare the prices on Apple's US and European online stores, and then on Dell's).

Why Apple do this, I don't know, because it's crippling their business here.

[aaarrrgggh]

It reallly surprises me that the iPhone is apparently doing better in France than the UK; I would have expected a much faster adoption rate in the UK with the improved exposure Apple has (Apple Europe HQ is in London, right?).

Is it just a Fashion thing? In the US fashion only seems to account for about 30-50% of the buying decisions, with the remainder focused more on utility.

[max93]

Originally Posted by tog

No, Apple's mark-up in Europe is far higher than anyone else's (just compare the prices on Apple's US and European online stores, and then on Dell's).

Why Apple do this, I don't know, because it's crippling their business here.

because they can,

[doemel]

See, T-Mobile (Germany) could learn from Orange (France) if they were smart. But maybe it's just that the French are not so damn cheap as the Germans are (Geiz ist geil )

[jimf1912]

Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh

It reallly surprises me that the iPhone is apparently doing better in France than the UK; I would have expected a much faster adoption rate in the UK with the improved exposure Apple has (Apple Europe HQ is in London, right?).

Is it just a Fashion thing? In the US fashion only seems to account for about 30-50% of the buying decisions, with the remainder focused more on utility.

Is Apple's European HQ not in Ireland? Or is that just manufacturing/printing?

[S10]

Originally Posted by tog

No, Apple's mark-up in Europe is far higher than anyone else's (just compare the prices on Apple's US and European online stores, and then on Dell's)..

I did, I'm not going to compare all the different Dell's available but I took one of the cheapest available Dell, the Inspiron 1510;
US price (including US tax average at 8%) 366 euro
France price 528 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 44% more expensive in France

Apple MacBook:
US price 808 euro (incl 8% tax)
France price 1049 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 29% more expensive in France

Or...
Dell XPS 720
US= 1103 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1499
difference= 396 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)

IMac base model:
US= 882 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1199 euro
difference= 317 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)

Pretty sure some Apple models will be more expensive in France then Dell compared to the US, but from these 2 sample I see that Apple 's economics are not different from Dell.

[piot]

Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh

It reallly surprises me that the iPhone is apparently doing better in France than the UK;

"Between 20,000 and 40,000 iPhones were sold (in the UK) over the weekend"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...cniphone13.xml

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by piot

"Between 20,000 and 40,000 iPhones were sold (in the UK) over the weekend"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...cniphone13.xml

That is good news for stock holders.

Originally Posted by hok

Registered just to respond...

It's Apple that hates France (like when Americans say that France hates US, when you read forums on the net it is the exact contrary). Why ?
No Apple store in France, when there is an Apple Expo in Paris the official Apple stand is quite inexistent, Steve Jobs doesn't come and there is never any new product announced (exactly when a new product is presented in an another country at not even an Apple show). Add to the fact that prices of Apple products are 20% to 40% more expensive in France…
I really wonder what make you think that ?

How many countries have the iPhone?
How many countries have a MacWorld Expo?

Your post is an anti-Apple RDF.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by piot

"Between 20,000 and 40,000 iPhones were sold (in the UK) over the weekend"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...cniphone13.xml

Ten days later the estimate was they'd only activated 26,500 though.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11...e_activations/

O2 aren't giving out official numbers though, unlike Orange and T-Mobile.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Ten days later the estimate was they'd only activated 26,500 though.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11...e_activations/

O2 aren't giving out official numbers though, unlike Orange and T-Mobile.

Activations will always be lower than the actual sales.

[TenoBell]

Activations will always be lower than the actual sales.

Especially weeks before Christmas. I told you to give to after Christmas to see where the real numbers will fall. I'm also sure a lot of people in Europe will unlock the phone and use it on another carrier. So actual sales will not be reflected by O2 activations.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Especially weeks before Christmas. I told you to give to after Christmas to see where the real numbers will fall. I'm also sure a lot of people in Europe will unlock the phone and use it on another carrier. So actual sales will not be reflected by O2 activations.

I agree, but do you mean you told me "to give to after Christmas?"

[TenoBell]

I didn't mean you specifically, I meant generally anyone quick to declare the iPhone a failure. Its difficult to convey tone in the written word.

[slicedbread]

Originally Posted by hok

Registered just to respond...

It's Apple that hates France (like when Americans say that France hates US, when you read forums on the net it is the exact contrary). Why ?
No Apple store in France, when there is an Apple Expo in Paris the official Apple stand is quite inexistent, Steve Jobs doesn't come and there is never any new product announced (exactly when a new product is presented in an another country at not even an Apple show). Add to the fact that prices of Apple products are 20% to 40% more expensive in France…
I really wonder what make you think that ?

Not Apple's fault, really (nor Dell's, or any other tech manufacturer). First off, Dell has pretty much the same "markups" (difference between U.S. and EU prices) for products sold in Europe as Apple does. Individual products may differ, but overall the % price differences are very close.

The main reason these products cost more in the EU than they do in the U.S. is that the taxes (especially VAT, or value-added tax) on such products are higher in the EU. There are also import duties and other factors to consider.

You also make the mistake of comparing U.S. store prices, which do NOT include sales taxes (can be as high as 10%), with EU store prices, which DO include taxes in the price.

Last word: and don't forget, part of the "markup" you cite in EU prices is the result of the U.S> dollar's current weakness against the Euro. When the U.S. dollar trades at a stronger price against the Euro, as it did five years ago, then much of that price "markup" disappears.

[SpamSandwich]

Originally Posted by solipsism

That is good news for stock holders.

How many countries have the iPhone?
How many countries have a MacWorld Expo?

Your post is an anti-Apple RDF.

Only Teh Steve is allowed to wield the magical RDF. Step away from the RDF.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Especially weeks before Christmas. I told you to give to after Christmas to see where the real numbers will fall. I'm also sure a lot of people in Europe will unlock the phone and use it on another carrier. So actual sales will not be reflected by O2 activations.

iPhones on an expensive 18 month O2 contract - it's the gift that keeps on taking.

If you're going to buy a phone for unlocking, it's cheaper to buy a US phone than one from the UK, but good luck with that theory.

[Buck]

Apple Sotre

That must be Apple Store in French. I really like the sound of that... Apple Sotree!

[max93]

Originally Posted by jimf1912

Is Apple's European HQ not in Ireland? Or is that just manufacturing/printing?

I think they are actually in the land of Nod most of the time.

[max93]

Originally Posted by S10

I did, I'm not going to compare all the different Dell's available but I took one of the cheapest available Dell, the Inspiron 1510;
US price (including US tax average at 8%) 366 euro
France price 528 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 44% more expensive in France

Apple MacBook:
US price 808 euro (incl 8% tax)
France price 1049 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 29% more expensive in France

Or...
Dell XPS 720
US= 1103 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1499
difference= 396 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)

IMac base model:
US= 882 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1199 euro
difference= 317 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)

Pretty sure some Apple models will be more expensive in France then Dell compared to the US, but from these 2 sample I see that Apple 's economics are not different from Dell.

Just wait until the Chinese want all prices in Euros because the US dollar is a junk currency

[TenoBell]

If you're going to buy a phone for unlocking, it's cheaper to buy a US phone than one from the UK, but good luck with that theory.

I've seen a good number of unlocked phones in the US, T-Mobile is the only other carrier option. In Europe where the iPhone can be used with virtually any carrier its logical to assume this will be an even bigger trend.

[aaarrrgggh]

A big part of the price differences ex VAT between Europe and the US is currency hedging, and the difference between purchasing power with the dollar's fall. European price parity is roughly at 0.85-1.0 Euro/Dollar. Input tariffs also play a roll, but that shouldn't be too big in the scheme of things.

[Berlepsch]

Originally Posted by S10

I did, I'm not going to compare all the different Dell's available but I took one of the cheapest available Dell, the Inspiron 1510;
US price (including US tax average at 8%) 366 euro
France price 528 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 44% more expensive in France

Apple MacBook:
US price 808 euro (incl 8% tax)
France price 1049 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 29% more expensive in France

Or...
Dell XPS 720
US= 1103 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1499
difference= 396 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)

IMac base model:
US= 882 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1199 euro
difference= 317 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)

Pretty sure some Apple models will be more expensive in France then Dell compared to the US, but from these 2 sample I see that Apple 's economics are not different from Dell.

Did you really look for the same configuration for the Dells? The specs can be quite different for US and Euro models. I made a comparison for two models, selecting the same CPU/RAM/HDD/DVD/GPU/OS/WiFi/etc.

For a Latitude D630 notebook, I get the following prices. US: $1096 (= 747 €), or 777 € (Germany, all w/o VAT). The same for Precision 690 (Intel Xeon desktop) US: $3513 (= 2395 €), or 2505 € from Dell Germany.

Taking into account that there are some "copyright fees" for computers in Germany, the difference is really small. In other words, Dell takes as much money from ther US customers as from their EU counterparts, whereas Apple is getting an extra 15 - 20 % from EU buyers.

[freelander51]

Is it so hard for some die hard boys from over the pond to understand that even if we factor in VAT and yadda yoda Europeans still get ripped off (and dont come with the parity as I am pretty sure that if the $/Euro rate was 1:1 prices WOULD go up at our end).

Lets face it Apple's and others products are designed in the US but manufactured in China. China Yuen is tied to the $ in order for them to flood Wal-Mard and co. with cheap products (and kill US manufacturing in the process). Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.

So the value chain of manufacturing is based in $

Yes there are duties and excises to be paid in SOME cases and YES in some countries like France and Germany there is a special levy on Disc burners and iPods and so on. And yes we charge VAT.

But in the US you get charged sales tax ! And this sales tax can sometime encompass state, regional and council taxes and amount to more then 10%

If Apple were to cruise at a margin of (say)5% NO ONE would care. When the net profit is -however- >25% one does have the right to start asking questions about rip-off.

Plus : when was the last time Apple paid a DIVIDEND to its shareholders. Usually companies should not be allowed to just sit on the wads of money they made but give (some) back to its rightful owners the shareholders. How come some very profitable tech companies have billions of $ in CASH on their accounts and get away with it ?

[NanoAkron]

Does anyone here reckon that the greater freedom France's iPhone purchasers have in deciding which contract to take/service provider to use plays any part in the brisk sales over there?

The article even says 20% have just bought the phone outright without a contract - that's the reason lots of people are holding out here in the UK.

I just bought into a new £35/mo contract for 18 months. Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts. That Nokia would be an iPhone right now if I could just go out and buy one unlocked.

[TenoBell]

Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts.

Wouldn't there be an additional 7 pounds for unlimited internet and 7 pounds for unlimited cloud access to equal the iPhone plan.

[addabox]

Originally Posted by Berlepsch

Did you really look for the same configuration for the Dells? The specs can be quite different for US and Euro models. I made a comparison for two models, selecting the same CPU/RAM/HDD/DVD/GPU/OS/WiFi/etc.

For a Latitude D630 notebook, I get the following prices. US: $1096 (= 747 €), or 777 € (Germany, all w/o VAT). The same for Precision 690 (Intel Xeon desktop) US: $3513 (= 2395 €), or 2505 € from Dell Germany.

Taking into account that there are some "copyright fees" for computers in Germany, the difference is really small. In other words, Dell takes as much money from ther US customers as from their EU counterparts, whereas Apple is getting an extra 15 - 20 % from EU buyers.

I'm completely mystified as to how what you've written here supports the notion that Apple is unduly ripping off its European customers.

Is it some kind of "Dell sells similar configurations cheaper, therefore Apple is ripping everybody off?" Because that's a completely different, and tedious, contention.

[addabox]

Originally Posted by freelander51

Is it so hard for some die hard boys from over the pond to understand that even if we factor in VAT and yadda yoda Europeans still get ripped off (and dont come with the parity as I am pretty sure that if the $/Euro rate was 1:1 prices WOULD go up at our end).

Lets face it Apple's and others products are designed in the US but manufactured in China. China Yuen is tied to the $ in order for them to flood Wal-Mard and co. with cheap products (and kill US manufacturing in the process). Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.

So the value chain of manufacturing is based in $

Yes there are duties and excises to be paid in SOME cases and YES in some countries like France and Germany there is a special levy on Disc burners and iPods and so on. And yes we charge VAT.

But in the US you get charged sales tax ! And this sales tax can sometime encompass state, regional and council taxes and amount to more then 10%

If Apple were to cruise at a margin of (say)5% NO ONE would care. When the net profit is -however- >25% one does have the right to start asking questions about rip-off.

Plus : when was the last time Apple paid a DIVIDEND to its shareholders. Usually companies should not be allowed to just sit on the wads of money they made but give (some) back to its rightful owners the shareholders. How come some very profitable tech companies have billions of $ in CASH on their accounts and get away with it ?

Again: "Apple charges too much for their stuff, in general, and I regard their margins as excessive" is a very different topic than "Apple sticks on outrageous surcharges for European customers, far in excess of what other non-EU vendors do".

It might be a good idea to keep those two ideas separate.

[heffeque]

Originally Posted by freelander51

Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.

Seems like some of that will start changing in the next few years. Dollars are getting cheaper and cheaper, and oil-selling countries aren't happy about it. Some of them are thinking about changing to yens or euros :-/

[McDave]

Originally Posted by NanoAkron

Does anyone here reckon that the greater freedom France's iPhone purchasers have in deciding which contract to take/service provider to use plays any part in the brisk sales over there?

The article even says 20% have just bought the phone outright without a contract - that's the reason lots of people are holding out here in the UK.

I just bought into a new £35/mo contract for 18 months. Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts. That Nokia would be an iPhone right now if I could just go out and buy one unlocked.

A little bit of choice goes a long, long way. While I'm a believer in the end-to-end solution (though let's hope iTunes rentals won't be ISP-specific) a lot of Apple's barrier to market revolves around taking decisions away from consumers as part of intelligent design. If they were to offer an unlocked version and a network contract package with extra features they'd make a mint anywhere.

McD

[Berlepsch]

Originally Posted by addabox

I'm completely mystified as to how what you've written here supports the notion that Apple is unduly ripping off its European customers.

Is it some kind of "Dell sells similar configurations cheaper, therefore Apple is ripping everybody off?" Because that's a completely different, and tedious, contention.

adda, I mostly wanted to correct S10's comparison between Dell's US and EU prices, because it is unfair to compare prices for differently spec'ed models across the pond.

My additional point is that Dell manages to sell computers in the EU for more or less the same net price as in the US. When you look at Apple on the other hand, there is always an extra 15 - 20 % that European customers have to pay for an Apple product on top of the US price and VAT.

Of course, Apple is free to charge as much as they want for their products, but with their current policy in the EU, they are simply overpriced for a large number of possible switchers.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

I've seen a good number of unlocked phones in the US, T-Mobile is the only other carrier option. In Europe where the iPhone can be used with virtually any carrier its logical to assume this will be an even bigger trend.

I imagine so but as I said, it's still cheaper to buy a US iPhone, import it into Europe and unlock it so if the rest of my European compatriots want an unlocked phone, it'd be sensible to buy it from the USA, not Europe.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

I imagine so but as I said, it's still cheaper to buy a US iPhone, import it into Europe and unlock it so if the rest of my European compatriots want an unlocked phone, it'd be sensible to buy it from the USA, not Europe.

Can you do that without a hack or does Apple know the IMEI of US and European iPhones in order to prevent this undercutting?

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by solipsism

Can you do that without a hack or does Apple know the IMEI of US and European iPhones in order to prevent this undercutting?

No idea. But the iPhones sold on ebay.co.uk in the last few months have been USA models.

[addabox]

Originally Posted by Berlepsch

adda, I mostly wanted to correct S10's comparison between Dell's US and EU prices, because it is unfair to compare prices for differently spec'ed models across the pond.

My additional point is that Dell manages to sell computers in the EU for more or less the same net price as in the US. When you look at Apple on the other hand, there is always an extra 15 - 20 % that European customers have to pay for an Apple product on top of the US price and VAT.

Of course, Apple is free to charge as much as they want for their products, but with their current policy in the EU, they are simply overpriced for a large number of possible switchers.

OK, but it looks like the prices you quoted show that you can get a "similarly specced" Dell for less than Apple charges.

Is it true that Dell sells the same computer in Europe for the equivalent they charge in the states? I just mean the final asking price.

[Berlepsch]

Originally Posted by addabox

OK, but it looks like the prices you quoted show that you can get a "similarly specced" Dell for less than Apple charges.

I selected the two models more or less randomly by picking a "middle of the road" laptop and a high end PC. This does not contradict your reasoning, there is no doubt that Apple computers cost more than comparable (not identical!) PC hardware.

Is it true that Dell sells the same computer in Europe for the equivalent they charge in the states? I just mean the final asking price.

The numbers I quoted are the final asking prices, of course without taxes and shipping. You can test it yourself, just use http://euro.dell.com and select a country.