Apple job posts hint at multi-touch Macs; iMacs suffer off-color LCDs

[AppleInsider]

Apple Inc. is recruiting testing engineers to help produce multi-touch Macs. Meanwhile, the company is cracking down on complaints of color problems with iMac displays, and Quicken is near completion of a web finance tool for the iPhone.

Apple seeks reliability engineer for multi-touch Macs

The development of multi-touch displays at Apple is expanding to the company's Mac division, according to a job listing on the firm's website.

Originally found by Engadget, the description asks for an engineer familiar with stress testing and other experiments on pre-production hardware who will support both "Mac and iPod hardware groups" for new technology.

The posting reflects an increasing amount of abstraction for touch input at the Cupertino, Calif.-based electronics giant. A second job posting, discovered by AppleInsider, is aimed at recruiting a senior hardware engineer for a Touch Technology team and focuses on creating new multi-touch flat panels for a variety of devices, regardless of their exact role.

"Pushing the envelope to design and ship innovative products (like the iPhone) with best-in-class technologies and user experiences is the main goal of the touch technology team at Apple," the posting reads.

People familiar with the matter have previously confirmed with AppleInsider that the Mac maker is developing a Newton-like slate computer, while multiple patents have been filed for advanced touch interfaces that can be used both inside and outside of displays.

Aluminum iMacs plagued by off-color LCDs

Owners of Apple's latest iMac models have been newly rebuffed in their attempts to resolve color gradient flaws on their systems' screens, according to reports.

Beginning the day of the all-in-one computers' launch in early August, threads in Apple's support discussions have surfaced that complain of screens with fading colors or with conspicuous color banding, either of which can cover some or all of the display and frequently make precise visual editing impossible.

"As a graphic designer I could not keep the iMac because the gradient was pretty pronounced on my display," says one discussion member. "It was darker on top and a lot lighter on the bottom, [and] therefore I could not see solid colors."

However, while thousands of users have posted to or viewed the threads, the system builder has in recent days begun locking down these discussions and sometimes deleting them entirely, preventing owners from voicing their concerns.

The issue primarily affects 20-inch iMac models, but has also been reported on a small number of 24-inch units. Apple engineers are reportedly aware of the screen flaws.

Quicken to appear as iPhone web service

Intuit is prepping a web-based version of its Quicken financial software as an iPhone-oriented online service, the company has revealed this week.

While the service will run on multiple mobile devices and full-sized computers, its initial format is designed with the Apple handset in mind and should appeal to a young, technically-savvy audience that may never have used dedicated financial software in the past, Intuit says. The functionality will resemble the basic retail software and allow users to download bank information as it's updated and track spending.

Instead of an up-front cost, the company will charge a $3 monthly subscription fee to use the service. An introduction is scheduled for January 8th, a week before the start of the Macworld San Francisco expo on the 15th.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[melgross]

Locking down discussions like this, or removing posts from others is something about Apple's behavior that disturbs me greatly.

Do they really think that no one will know these problems are occurring, or that they are serious because of their doing that? It's not to be believed!

[HyteProsector]

Originally Posted by melgross

Locking down discussions like this, or removing posts from others is something about Apple's behavior that disturbs me greatly.

Do they really think that no one will know these problems are occurring, or that they are serious because of their doing that? It's not to be believed!

Yeah, I remember the same thing happened with the fiasco that occured with the sudden price drop in the iPhone. Can't believe that Apples initial behaviour (in deleting thousands of posts) didn't also get more press.

[Bageljoey]

Originally Posted by melgross

Locking down discussions like this, or removing posts from others is something about Apple's behavior that disturbs me greatly.

Do they really think that no one will know these problems are occurring, or that they are serious because of their doing that? It's not to be believed!

I agree. I cannot see how they think that this is a good policy. The only reason for locking down threads like that would be if they truly believed that they were non-issues being trumped up by competitors or something.
Or possibly after a fix had been provided.
But to just shut them down just hurts their brand image in my book...

[HyteProsector]

I think I remember Steve Jobs saying that he didn't see the purpose of mulitouch on a desktop. I think it was at the "All Things Digital" shindig with Billy G. However, in light of that, and their recent patents ... I do believe it will be coming the track pad and mouse. Whats the sense of reaching up to the screen?... who knows ... maybe I'm wrong. Although, I don't think we should over look the fact that we can be more efficient with a mouse. You can move further and faster without as much physical effort. Yes, yes, I've seen Jeff Han's presentations and Microsoft's Milan... they're cute and all, but I think that gestures on the mouse/trackpad is where things are headed.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by HyteProsector

I think I remember Steve Jobs saying that he didn't see the purpose of mulitouch on a desktop. I think it was at the "All Things Digital" shindig with Billy G. However, in light of that, and their recent patents ... I do believe it will be coming the track pad and mouse. Whats the sense of reaching up to the screen?... who knows ... maybe I'm wrong. Although, I don't think we should over look the fact that we can be more efficient with a mouse. You can move further and faster without as much physical effort. Yes, yes, I've seen Jeff Han's presentations and Microsoft's Milan... they're cute and all, but I think that gestures on the mouse/trackpad is where things are headed.

Personally, trackpads irritate me, I do think it's because of a limited range of motion. I don't know about others, but in some ways, I don't seem to "fit" moving body parts over such a tiny range of useable motion. Gestures can already be done on trackpads, I'm sure there's a haxie somewhere if you want to do that.

What Steve says doesn't really mean anything. It could be a diversion.

[joe in miami]

Any idea what the current failure rate is on 20's and 24's? and what is Apple's position if your unit is faulty?

[melgross]

Originally Posted by HyteProsector

I think I remember Steve Jobs saying that he didn't see the purpose of mulitouch on a desktop. I think it was at the "All Things Digital" shindig with Billy G. However, in light of that, and their recent patents ... I do believe it will be coming the track pad and mouse. Whats the sense of reaching up to the screen?... who knows ... maybe I'm wrong. Although, I don't think we should over look the fact that we can be more efficient with a mouse. You can move further and faster without as much physical effort. Yes, yes, I've seen Jeff Han's presentations and Microsoft's Milan... they're cute and all, but I think that gestures on the mouse/trackpad is where things are headed.

If we counted up all of the things he said wouldn't work, or be a good idea, we would have half of Apple's current product line.

I always wonder what Jobs is actually meaning when he poo poos a product, or catagory.

It could be marketing, a sort of reverse vaporware. Instead of announcing a product that never comes to light or only does years later, in the hope of making people wait for yours, rather than buying the competition's, this way is different.

He says that no one will ever want to use a product like that, in the hope that no one will begin to make them—until Apple's bursts upon the scene, and suddenly, it's the only right way to do it.

Only two people would ever think of doing that, Jobs, and of course, myself.

[merdhead]

Originally Posted by HyteProsector

I think I remember Steve Jobs saying that he didn't see the purpose of mulitouch on a desktop. I think it was at the "All Things Digital" shindig with Billy G. However, in light of that, and their recent patents ... I do believe it will be coming the track pad and mouse. Whats the sense of reaching up to the screen?... who knows ... maybe I'm wrong. Although, I don't think we should over look the fact that we can be more efficient with a mouse. You can move further and faster without as much physical effort. Yes, yes, I've seen Jeff Han's presentations and Microsoft's Milan... they're cute and all, but I think that gestures on the mouse/trackpad is where things are headed.

I think it might add something, but it would be a bit of a gimmick, unless it was some sort of combination laptop/tablet, where is would find some use. I think we'll probably see a larger iPod touch sort of machine, coming some way between a Mac and the iPod. With Bluetooth you could add a mouse and a keyboard in a desktop situation (with the unit in a stand) and use it as a tablet when on the go. This would probably be quite useful. Longer term Apple's probably looking to stretch its portable product line between the iPhone at one extreme and laptops at the other. With flash storage in laptops you can see where this might go. Adding touch screens to laptops might provide compatibility so that touch software could run normally on all portable devices.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in January. If we see a larger iPod touch and a flash based laptop, which we probably will, then it would suggest that one day the two might meet somewhere in the middle.

[Shogun]

I personally doubt that there will be a trackpad as we've known it. I'd rather predict that the whole "chin" of the laptop will remain a single piece -- smooth across -- but that it will function in a multi-touch type way. Gestures, many fingers at once, etc.

[anantksundaram]

I agree with melgross.

If this is true, this is stunningly arrogant on Apple's part. This is simply tantamount to treating their customers like crap.

It is when stuff like this happens, that I go, "well, there are times when only (bite my lip) a lawsuit will get someone's attention in Cupertino."

[Ireland]

• 11" display, really thin (around 15mm) and pretty light.
• Silver, aluminum rear, chrome rim, glass front.
• Built in iSight.
• Tiny pop-out (and push-in) stand / rest on rear top quarter.
• Subtle, light-gray rubber grips / pads for protection, for hand-grip and to hide antennas.
• No sharp edges + very classy, minimal and understated looking.
• Fully Multi-touch input with a wholly, modified OS - "especially for fingers".
• Stylus sold separately, for intricate work if that's your thing.
• No optical drive at all.
• Comes with dock and syncs through iTunes.
• Possibly to be able to be used as a digital picture frame also.
• Possible tag-line: "Take some work with you."
• Targeted at desktop users, and people who own only a 15+" Mac notebook as their main home or work computer.
• Solid state storage, 64GB and 128GB versions.
• Only one screen size.
• NO BUILT-IN SLIDE-OUT OR FLIP-OUT HARDWARE KEYBOARD!!!!!
• Named: Mac touch!

*Puts crystal ball away*

[monstrosity]

Originally Posted by melgross

If we counted up all of the things he said wouldn't work, or be a good idea, we would have half of Apple's current product line.

I always wonder what Jobs is actually meaning when he poo poos a product, or catagory.

It could be marketing, a sort of reverse vaporware. Instead of announcing a product that never comes to light or only does years later, in the hope of making people wait for yours, rather than buying the competition's, this way is different.

He says that no one will ever want to use a product like that, in the hope that no one will begin to make them—until Apple's bursts upon the scene, and suddenly, it's the only right way to do it.

Only two people would ever think of doing that, Jobs, and of course, myself.

and me! I love to talk nonsense or act dumb when someone asks about a secret product im working on. All part of the game

[mydo]

I would be kind of cool to replace the keyboard area of a notebook with a multitouch display. That way you could use that area to display stuff other than just a keyboard. You can modify the interface there anyway you want. No keyboard, keyboard only, keyboard plus track pad. Put widgets on the palm rests?

It may be hard to type on?

[monstrosity]

Originally Posted by mydo

I would be kind of cool to replace the keyboard area of a notebook with a multitouch display. That way you could use that area to display stuff other than just a keyboard. You can modify the interface there anyway you want. No keyboard, keyboard only, keyboard plus track pad. Put widgets on the palm rests?

It may be hard to type on?

See this is what I have been considering also, I think it would be fine to type on. It will happen and I look forward to buying it, using it.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by Ireland

• 11" display, really thin (around 15mm) and pretty light.
• Silver, aluminum rear, chrome rim, glass front.
• Built in iSight.
• Tiny pop-out (and push-in) stand / rest on rear top quarter.
• Subtle, light-gray rubber grips / pads for protection, for hand-grip and to hide antennas.
• No sharp edges + very classy, minimal and understated looking.
• Fully Multi-touch input with a wholly, modified OS - "especially for fingers".
• Stylus sold separately, for intricate work if that's your thing.
• No optical drive at all.
• Comes with dock and syncs through iTunes.
• Possibly to be able to be used as a digital picture frame also.
• Possible tag-line: "Take some work with you."
• Targeted at desktop users, and people who only own a 15+" Mac notebook as their main home or work computer.
• Solid state storage, 64GB and 128GB versions.
• Only one screen size.
• NO BUILT-IN SLIDE-OUT OR FLIP-OUT HARDWARE KEYBOARD!!!!!

*Puts crystal ball away*

PRICE= Between $2,500 and $4,000.

With those specs, who is going to buy this?

[melgross]

Originally Posted by monstrosity

and me! I love to talk nonsense or act dumb when someone asks about a secret product im working on. All part of the game

Of course!

[Ireland]

Originally Posted by melgross

PRICE= Between $2,500 and $4,000.

With those specs, who is going to buy this?

You may be wrong about those pricing guesstimates, way wrong.

If Apple made a gamble with Sammy, and bought 1,000,000 of those 64GB (or those secret 128GB) SSD's, they would get them for a hell of a lot cheaper than anyone could imagine. And yes, by-Joe I do see 1,000,000 of these things selling, heck I can see 10,000,000 of them selling over the next 5 years.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by mydo

I would be kind of cool to replace the keyboard area of a notebook with a multitouch display. That way you could use that area to display stuff other than just a keyboard. You can modify the interface there anyway you want. No keyboard, keyboard only, keyboard plus track pad. Put widgets on the palm rests?

It may be hard to type on?

I think it's more a matter of what we're used to, and how it's implemented.

Someone here once cited a "study" in which experienced typists used a regular keyboard, and another group of experienced typists used a planar keyboard. After some time, I don't remember how long, but it was a somewhat decent number, weeks, I think, they tested typing speed, and accuracy.

To little surprise on my part, those who used the regular keyboard did much better. But, just as in real life, the test had a major flaw.

By using experienced typists on both the control, and the test subjects, something was inserted into the experiment that biased it to the point of invalidation.

People who are good at something, particularly when there is a physical component, acquire muscle memory. That is, because of constant practice, they don't need to concentrate on the task. A good typist reads what they are copying, and pays little or no attention to the keyboard.

So, with this test, the control group was simply validating their skills, and muscle memory.

But, the test subjects were also doing the same thing, to their frustration. Before they could "learn" the new planar keyboard, they first had to UNLEARN their skill with a standard keyboard. they then had to RELEARN typing on this new, very different model.

Not a valid test process.

The experiment should have started with two groups who had never typed before, and then given each group its keyboard. The problem is also a question of how long the experiment goes on. Just how long does it take to really learn to keyboard properly? I've read that it can take at least 6 months, and as long as two years.

This makes an experiment very difficult to implement.

But, it would give us a good idea of what to really expect.

The other problem is that the hardware and software for planar keyboards is advancing at a rapid rate. So, which system does one test? And will the test be valid at the end if the devices have improved meanwhile?

Well, all of that was merely to give some weight to the point that we use these planar keyboards and say that they're uncomfortable, and that they are too mistake prone. But, is that true? Is it just that we have a memory of typing that we can't give up because in our lives, we are using regular keyboards AND then using these planar ones as well?

I wonder how kids would do when presented with modern planar keyboards based on, say, Apple's multitouch with the software that the iPhone/iTouch uses from the very beginning, rather than a standard keyboard.

Perhaps they will do better?

[melgross]

Originally Posted by Ireland

You may be wrong about those pricing guesstimates, way wrong.

If Apple made a gamble with Sammy, and bought 1,000,000 of those 64GB (or those secret 128GB) SSD's, they would get them for a hell of a lot cheaper than anyone could imagine. And yes, by-Joe I do see 1,000,000 of these things selling, heck I can see 10,000,000 of them selling over the next 5 years.

I MAY be wrong, but I don't think so.

Just how much do you think an 11" multitouch screen would cost?

What kind of technology would Apple need to make a computer that runs at an acceptable speed if it's 15 mm thick?

Do you really think that Apple would take the chance of buying a million drives that will still cost them enough that the retail price at point of sale in the computer would still be around $800?

And what about that 128GB drive? would you say now that it would cost Apple $1,600 or more (most likely more)?

Don't think pleasantly low. Just look around at the prices these thing are actually selling for.

Don't forget that Apple has the iTouch with a screen that's got perhaps a 50th of the screen area that you are looking at. They also get very good prices for the Flash because they paid for large amounts at the beginning.

But, the tiny iTouch costs $400. Any reasonable scale-up with much more powerful processing, and a much larger battery (MUCH larger) would cost far far more.

And, how can they get a battery with sufficient power in a computer with that much inside, in such little thickness? I don't see it.

[monstrosity]

Originally Posted by Ireland

You may be wrong about those pricing guesstimates, way wrong.

If Apple made a gamble with Sammy, and bought 1,000,000 of those 64GB (or those secret 128GB) SSD's, they would get them for a hell of a lot cheaper than anyone could imagine. And yes, by-Joe I do see 1,000,000 of these things selling, heck I can see 10,000,000 of them selling over the next 5 years.

If this product happens, is there any need for such 'large' amounts of memory?
I dont think this device will be targeted for long term memory storage, it's just an add-on to your existing mac (or PC?).
Much of the data could even be stored/retrieved online if need be.

Also (if the market requirements suggested large memory storage), what benefit would there be to go fully solid state at this stage? To keep costs down (which they will need to for it to be a winner) why not use oldskool tech.


I have been into much depth on this website (or another i forget) a while back as to what I would like to see, but to recap..

7" or 8" touch screen portable wifi internet browser, email receive/sending via 'full on-screen' keyboard. A pdf/doc/txt/rtf viewer. iCal, address book, dictionary, calculator
Chuck in Pages/Numbers (or cut down versions) and the business market will be salivating.
Encourage game developers.
40gb internal storage. USB memory (or similar) could hold additional external data, and future proof the device. Online data storage. Streaming. And 'synching' with your current computer could keep internal memory requirements to a minimum.
There is no reason why this machine could not retrieve 2G /3G data, maybe through your existing iphone contract for a small fee.
HDMI, 1 x USB 2.0,
This device is not pocket sized, its briefcase/bag/rucksack/glovebox/handbag sized.
This product could seriously 'slice and dice' and be attractive to many markets.
< $999 pricetag (dependent on features)
Is there any reason this device could not be sold for $500? the 7" touchscreen is the only costly component, most of the other components have been available in Apple TV for the past year for $400 (or whatever it is, I haven't checked)

I think we should consider this as iPhones big brother, a product which blurs the line between cell phones and traditional computers, rather than seen as standalone laptop substitute. Media streaming potential should be plugged massively also.


MARKETS: Media Streaming, Mobile Internet/Email, Business/Organiser, E-Book Reader, Gaming (to small extent)

[vinea]

Originally Posted by melgross

I think it's more a matter of what we're used to, and how it's implemented.

Someone here once cited a "study" in which experienced typists used a regular keyboard, and another group of experienced typists used a planar keyboard. After some time, I don't remember how long, but it was a somewhat decent number, weeks, I think, they tested typing speed, and accuracy.

To little surprise on my part, those who used the regular keyboard did much better. But, just as in real life, the test had a major flaw.

Most keyboards are planar. As in the keys lie on a plane. Notable common exceptions are things like Microsoft Natural Keyboards.

Comparisons between the Dvorak keyboard and the Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard have found performance difference in moderate training time (50 hours over 1 month to regain/exceed original typing speed) thus your assertion that no study can be valid unless you start with untrained typists is incorrect. Especially given that the Dvorak keyboard actually DOES interfere with muscle memory since the keys are displaced where as a virtual QWERTY keyboard has the same keyboard layout.

Muscle memory should aid a virtual keyboard, not hinder it. The primary shortfall of virtual keyboards is the lack of tactile feedback. With no tactile reference point for the rest position it is easy to begin drifting which would increase downstream errors. This is less of an issue for the iPhone but based on older studies on membrane keyboards (effects of embossing and bumps on error rates) more relevant for full sized keyboards.

There are multiple studies starting with old membrane keyboard to modern multitouch keyboards. But the current results are that for multi-touch/virtual keyboards providing auditory cues is most important addition since the largest block of errors seen has been errors of omission (where the user thought they hit the key but didn't) and followed by drift...which is why I don't list lack of actuation cue as a shortfall...as long as you can hear an auditory click anyway.

As for the likely study you refer to (the iPhone study) it was an early study. A later study (fall 2007) indicates that iPhone speed is about the same as QWERTY but with far higher error rates. Training time by this period for iPhone owners would have been about the same as that as dvorak switchers in the US Navy study (1 month) although training would have been more haphazard.

"While hard-key QWERTY owners and iPhone owners were equally rapid at entering
messages on their own phones, iPhone owners made significantly more errors while using
their own phones and left significantly more errors in their final message.

Additionally, we found no statistically significant difference between the number of text
errors made on the iPhone by either iPhone owners or novices."

http://www.usercentric.com/iPhone/iPhone3_Nov07.pdf

Given the error rates on the least commonly used letter in the english language I wonder if Apple shouldn't have gone ahead and used an alternate mapping over the QWERTY one. Certainly training time would have been no longer than training to text using just a numeric keypad and error rates could have been reduced.

[Ireland]

Even if it doesn't end up having 128GB of storage, this product will happen, I'm convinced of that.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by vinea

Most keyboards are planar. As in the keys lie on a plane. Notable common exceptions are things like Microsoft Natural Keyboards.

That term was used in the late '70's for keyboards such as the Atari 400's. It meant that the tops of the keys were in the same plane as the case of the keyboard. If it's gone out of use, that's fine too.

Comparisons between the Dvorak keyboard and the Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard have found performance difference in moderate training time (50 hours over 1 month to regain/exceed original typing speed) thus your assertion that no study can be valid unless you start with untrained typists is incorrect. Especially given that the Dvorak keyboard actually DOES interfere with muscle memory since the keys are displaced where as a virtual QWERTY keyboard has the same keyboard layout.

It's a much larger move to a, whatever you want to call it, soft keyboard (that's what we call keys on the surface of a touch sensitive oscilloscope screen that can also sometimes vary) than to a Dvorak keyboard which still uses the same method of moving keys. But, I will grant that both cause dislocation. Still, trained typists have the experience of typing. That should be eliminated. The variables are complex. I'm also not sure from what you said, which way the typists were moving, from, or to, the Dvorak.

Muscle memory should aid a virtual keyboard, not hinder it. The primary shortfall of virtual keyboards is the lack of tactile feedback. With no tactile reference point for the rest position it is easy to begin drifting which would increase downstream errors. This is less of an issue for the iPhone but based on older studies on membrane keyboards (effects of embossing and bumps on error rates) more relevant for full sized keyboards.

I don't see how that can be. When typing on a key, one is expecting a certain movement, and becomes familiar with it. If that movement is removed, then a totally different response is required.

Let me say that these, as you are calling them, virtual keyboards are for all intents, a new technology. And as I did say, are improving as we get experience with them. Look at "normal" keyboards, and see how they changed from the first models to the newest. Many of those changes were said to cause more errors and fatigue, but the opposite occurred.

There are multiple studies starting with old membrane keyboard to modern multitouch keyboards. But the current results are that for multi-touch/virtual keyboards providing auditory cues is most important addition since the largest block of errors seen has been errors of omission (where the user thought they hit the key but didn't) and followed by drift...which is why I don't list lack of actuation cue as a shortfall...as long as you can hear an auditory click anyway.

I do agree that any help the keyboard can give is good. Just like the centering tits on the "F", "J" and the "5" keys on most keyboards aid in keeping one's hands where they belong. Though Apple eliminated them from the new aluminum keyboard that I'm using here.

As for the likely study you refer to (the iPhone study) it was an early study. A later study (fall 2007) indicates that iPhone speed is about the same as QWERTY but with far higher error rates. Training time by this period for iPhone owners would have been about the same as that as dvorak switchers in the US Navy study (1 month) although training would have been more haphazard.

"While hard-key QWERTY owners and iPhone owners were equally rapid at entering
messages on their own phones, iPhone owners made significantly more errors while using
their own phones and left significantly more errors in their final message.

Additionally, we found no statistically significant difference between the number of text
errors made on the iPhone by either iPhone owners or novices."

http://www.usercentric.com/iPhone/iPhone3_Nov07.pdf

Given the error rates on the least commonly used letter in the english language I wonder if Apple shouldn't have gone ahead and used an alternate mapping over the QWERTY one. Certainly training time would have been no longer than training to text using just a numeric keypad and error rates could have been reduced.

The earlier study was not, I seem to remember, about the iPhone, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. It was the one we disagreed about earlier this year, I think it was.

I just read the one you now supplied. I have no argument with it.

But I must point out that these small thumb operated keyboards are not good examples of any keyboard. They are all difficult to use well. My Palm keyboard is a real pain to use.

And the users did rate the iPhone keyboard as being in the middle. I suppose that refers to the preference over the numeric keyboard, which is not hard to understand.

What I found about the iPhone keyboard, after just using it for about five minutes, was that in the vertical position, the way it is normally used (and a mistake on Apple's part to only allow that, except for Safari, something I hope they will correct) I made a fair number of mistakes. I assume that was the way it was used in this test as well, from looking at the picture.

But when I turned it horizontally, typing in Safari, it was far easier to use, and I made few mistakes. What I'd like to see is a study making that comparison.

[palegolas]

Anyone interested in any product should go and have a look at it before they buy it. It took me 2 seconds in the store to identify the iMac 20" display as a compromised low budget display. The vertical viewing angle is questionable. The 24" one is much better, and almost solid. All this whining is tiresome.. But I guess Apple did a lousy job of warning potential customers. They should have a big warning sign on the box saying:

"This is the fancy new iMac 20". Even though it looks fantastic, it is our cheapest consumer all-in-one Mac, and so we decided to put a low budget display in it with low vertical viewing angle, in fact lower than most displays out there, for no other reason than to make a couple of extra bucks a piece, and hoping that nobody will notice."

It is really lame of Apple to put this lousy display in the iMac 20". 20" is a large and nice size. Many pros would think of the iMac 20" as a serious work station. But Apple effectively killed that option with the inclusion of this screen, and giving a lot of consumers a bad Mac experience in the same blow.

[Haggar]

Don't the new 20 inch iMacs use the cheaper, lower quality 6 bit displays which are physically incapable of displaying "millions" of colors?

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by Haggar

Don't the new 20 inch iMacs use the cheaper, lower quality 6 bit displays which are physically incapable of displaying "millions" of colors?

It's not capable of statically showing that many colors. It's possible to achieve close enough color with time-based dithering, which is the shimmering and flickering that you might see under certain circumstances, or seemingly all the time if you're at all like me. The 20" iMacs also have a lower viewing angle.

I see some variation of the shimmering effect on nearly all regular mobile phones as well.

[one9deuce]

I don't see your product ever happening Ireland. What exactly would it be good for? Maybe a 7" version that really is the new Newton. The Mac laptop of the future will be an unbelievabley thin OLED screen (that is multi-touch), and then a Multi-Touch keyboard that has tactile feedback and can instantly be any other language (or any type of buttons for that matter). They fold together to be a half inch or less total thickness.

Why would we want to prop up your product like a picture frame and then bring along a wireless keyboard and mouse?

[ecking]

Originally Posted by melgross

If we counted up all of the things he said wouldn't work, or be a good idea, we would have half of Apple's current product line.

I always wonder what Jobs is actually meaning when he poo poos a product, or catagory.

It could be marketing, a sort of reverse vaporware. Instead of announcing a product that never comes to light or only does years later, in the hope of making people wait for yours, rather than buying the competition's, this way is different.

He says that no one will ever want to use a product like that, in the hope that no one will begin to make them—until Apple's bursts upon the scene, and suddenly, it's the only right way to do it.

Only two people would ever think of doing that, Jobs, and of course, myself.

melgross = new fake steve jobs???

[lkrupp]

Originally Posted by melgross

Locking down discussions like this, or removing posts from others is something about Apple's behavior that disturbs me greatly.

Do they really think that no one will know these problems are occurring, or that they are serious because of their doing that? It's not to be believed!

You know I'm really getting tired of people like you. You are totally clueless about why threads get closed or deleted. I have been a regular on the Apple discussion forums since 2001 and I can testify that threads do not get locked because of possible negative or embarrassing issues. They get locked or deleted when the threads get out of control because a number of users can't seem to keep the discussion civil. After the initial reports of an issue the threads then often degenerate into continuous rants, accusations of intentional, illegal activity by Apple, threats and calls for class action lawsuits, and any other potentially libelous, scurrilous, and generally disruptive comments from a few aggrieved users who can't seem to keep their anger under control. Why should any company allow that kind of drivel to proceed. Usually after a thread like this is locked another is started about the same issue and for awhile it's under control. Usually ,though, the same users come back and start their name calling, threats, and bashing again. The thread is then again locked. Users like me who have enough points have the ability to report posts like that to the administrators along with the reason we think the post might want to investigated by the admins. The final decision to lock or delete a thread lies with the admins.

You can be mad at Apple, upset they aren't moving or recognizing an issue as fast as you might think is required, but you can also keep the pressure on without resorting to threats, name calling, and libelous accusations. In an earlier life I was a customer service rep for Ma Bell. We were well within company guidelines to simply hang up on a customer who started cursing us, suggesting our mothers were female dogs, threatening us with physical violence. That's why we never used our real names.

Your assumption that Apple locks threads in hopes the problem goes away is sorely off base. If you actually read some of the crap that people post in these threads you would know that. But apparently you prefer to accept the worst possible motives as gospel. If I thought Apple was doing what it's accused of I certainly wouldn't remain a customer or continue using the forums.

p.s. Oh, and another way to really get the help one needs is to threaten sell your Mac and go Windows. That really inspires one's fellow Mac users to rush to your aid. We're so scared you might do it. Not!

[melgross]

Originally Posted by lkrupp

You know I'm really getting tired of people like you. You are totally clueless about why threads get closed or deleted. I have been a regular on the Apple discussion forums since 2001 and I can testify that threads do not get locked because of possible negative or embarrassing issues. They get locked or deleted when the threads get out of control because a number of users can't seem to keep the discussion civil. After the initial reports of an issue the threads then often degenerate into continuous rants, accusations of intentional, illegal activity by Apple, threats and calls for class action lawsuits, and any other potentially libelous, scurrilous, and generally disruptive comments from a few aggrieved users who can't seem to keep their anger under control. Why should any company allow that kind of drivel to proceed. Usually after a thread like this is locked another is started about the same issue and for awhile it's under control. Usually ,though, the same users come back and start their name calling, threats, and bashing again. The thread is then again locked. Users like me who have enough points have the ability to report posts like that to the administrators along with the reason we think the post might want to investigated by the admins. The final decision to lock or delete a thread lies with the admins.

You can be mad at Apple, upset they aren't moving or recognizing an issue as fast as you might think is required, but you can also keep the pressure on without resorting to threats, name calling, and libelous accusations. In an earlier life I was a customer service rep for Ma Bell. We were well within company guidelines to simply hang up on a customer who started cursing us, suggesting our mothers were female dogs, threatening us with physical violence. That's why we never used our real names.

Your assumption that Apple locks threads in hopes the problem goes away is sorely off base. If you actually read some of the crap that people post in these threads you would know that. But apparently you prefer to accept the worst possible motives as gospel. If I thought Apple was doing what it's accused of I certainly wouldn't remain a customer or continue using the forums.

p.s. Oh, and another way to really get the help one needs is to threaten sell your Mac and go Windows. That really inspires one's fellow Mac users to rush to your aid. We're so scared you might do it. Not!

You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.

And, id you think it's unnoticed except on an Apple rumor board, think again!

Apple could find a better way around this, if they wanted to, instead of closing it off altogether.

I'm not excusing the nonsense that some people write. Unfortunately, some writers who complain about some Apple madmen fans are correct.

But, if Apple really wanted to keep these discussions open, they could do what many sites do when confronted with absurd posts, they could vet them first, and then post them if they meet some fair standard of compliance, which would be up there in the FAQ and thereupon enforced. Then, by allowing critical posts to appear that meet those guidelines, they would not be criticized by the fair minded people, whom you do not seem to like.

[lkrupp]

Originally Posted by melgross

You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.

And, id you think it's unnoticed except on an Apple rumor board, think again!

Apple could find a better way around this, if they wanted to, instead of closing it off altogether.

I'm not excusing the nonsense that some people write. Unfortunately, some writers who complain about some Apple madmen fans are correct.

But, if Apple really wanted to keep these discussions open, they could do what many sites do when confronted with absurd posts, they could vet them first, and then post them if they meet some fair standard of compliance, which would be up there in the FAQ and thereupon enforced. Then, by allowing critical posts to appear that meet those guidelines, they would not be criticized by the fair minded people, whom you do not seem to like.

I'll ask you the same question I ask of all your ilk. If Apple is the source of all evil in the world then why are you still a user/customer? According to your posts Apple is comprised of a bunch of fascists who regularly screw over customers, suppress free speech, intentionally break the law, and any other foul crap somebody comes up with. If I'm the "fanboy" because I try to defend them when some loser loser libels them then do you suffer from "battered wife syndrome" or in which the victim keeps coming back for more abuse. How can you still be the customer of a company you so apparently despise in your numerous posts in this forum over the years?

[Ireland]

Originally Posted by melgross

You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.

I agree, there's no excuses. Fuck Apple!

PS.. Mac touch FTW!

[melgross]

Originally Posted by lkrupp

I'll ask you the same question I ask of all your ilk. If Apple is the source of all evil in the world then why are you still a user/customer? According to your posts Apple is comprised of a bunch of fascists who regularly screw over customers, suppress free speech, intentionally break the law, and any other foul crap somebody comes up with. If I'm the "fanboy" because I try to defend them when some loser loser libels them then do you suffer from "battered wife syndrome" or in which the victim keeps coming back for more abuse. How can you still be the customer of a company you so apparently despise in your numerous posts in this forum over the years?

You're going nutso over this. You are a total idiot, if you think like that. Apple is a company. Don't give us that crap about me thinking that Apple is the source of all evil just because they do something that's stupid once and a while. None of us here think that. But, it seems that those who can't take the criticism directed towards Apple, must try to raise this to levels it was never intended to be.

What are you anyway? Are you that much of a fanboy that you can't see past your rose colored glasses when you look at them?

Apple is a very good company. I have 11 thousand shares of their stock, and I'm not selling so fast. But, they are far from perfect, and Jobs is no martyr. It may be near Christmas, but don't elevate him to sainthood quite yet.

If you really have been here for long, and have read my posts, then you would do better than to have selective memory about it. I applaud Apple when I think they've done well, and defend them when I think it requires it. I've been accused of being a fanboy at times by some irate member.

But, I will also justly criticize them when I think they're wrong.

If you find that to be too difficult to wrap you head around, then you must have problems with most of our discussions, because it's about half and half between criticizing them when they do wrong, and praising them when they do right.

Your little head must be spinning around because of that.

If you can't get over it, then go where you won't have the problem. I suggest staying home, and away from anything electrical.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by melgross

I have 11 thousand shares of their stock

Cool, man...... !