Time Machine remains focal point of Mac OS X 10.5.2 testing

[AppleInsider]

The stability and performance of Time Machine, Apple's easy-to-use backup software included with Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, remains one of the final focus areas for testers evaluating the company's impending 10.5.2 operating system update.

Following up on build Mac OS X 10.5.2 build 9C27, which was released privately to developers last Thursday, Apple on Monday evening issued yet another build labeled 9C30.

Like the two builds that preceded it, build 9C30 is said to contain no known issues. According to those familiar with the distribution, it also tacks on three more fixes to an already exhaustive list stretching some 135 items long.

Of the three new fixes, two target Time Machine -- one implementing a fix for restoring data from backup images and a second involving tweaks to the software's underlying BackupCore framework. When combined with earlier code revisions in previous builds, that brings the total number of Time Machine-related fixes in Mac OS X 10.5.2 Update to 10.

Additionally, Mac OS 10.5.2 build 93C0 is reported to have seen its list of core focus areas reduced from 13 to 9. Chief among those areas remaining as focal points are Time Machine, audio input, Back To My Mac, Bluetooth, Safari, and graphics drivers.

Mac OS X 10.5.2, which includes support for Apple's soon-to-be-released Time Capsule backup appliance, would need to see a release sometime this month in order for the company to make good on its self-imposed ship deadline for that product.

Other features expected as part of the Leopard update include support for a new array of multi-touch trackpad-endabled MacBook Pros, support for Remote Disc optical drive sharing on existing Macs, and a new list view in Stacks.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

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[solipsism]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Like the two builds that preceded it, build 9C30 is said to contain no known issues.

I believe this is the fourth build with no known issues: 9C20, 9C23, 9C27 & 9C30.

[Brian Green]

Originally Posted by solipsism

I believe this is the fourth build with no known issues: 9C20, 9C23, 9C27 & 9C30.

This makes me believe they are just engaging in disinformation. Why not just say there are issues? It's obvious to me that if 9C30 tacked on three new fixes, those three fixes didn't exist in 9C27. Therefore there are issues. It appears to me that the "no known issues" statement from Apple can not be trusted.

[etandrib]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

This makes me believe they are just engaging in disinformation. Why not just say there are issues? It's obvious to me that if 9C30 tacked on three new fixes, those three fixes didn't exist in 9C27. Therefore there are issues. It appears to me that the "no known issues" statement from Apple can not be trusted.

I would suggest that Apple released the build with no known issues but the testers found some more bugs that needed to be fixed before going gold. Just because this has happened more than usual isn't any reason to raise alarm.

As a side note I'm really looking forward to Time Capsule and plan on getting one for my home and also for my parents so I really hope they have ALL the Time Machine bugs worked out.

[Brian Green]

Originally Posted by etandrib

I would suggest that Apple released the build with no known issues but the testers found some more bugs that needed to be fixed before going gold. Just because this has happened more than usual isn't any reason to raise alarm.

As a side note I'm really looking forward to Time Capsule and plan on getting one for my home and also for my parents so I really hope they have ALL the Time Machine bugs worked out.

I agree completely that it's important to have all the bugs worked out. I just think Apple ought not use the words, "no known issues". That implies to me that their code is pristine and flawless. We all know that it'll never be that way. All this work on a point release makes me wonder if they are going to reallocate their engineers to some other project after this. Seems to me like they are really trying to snuff out everything right here at 10.5.2. It makes me wonder what they are up to.

[GQB]

One thing I'd like to see added to Time Machine is the ability to create a positive backup list as opposed to negative. Currently you can exclude directories from backup, but there are so many of those, that I'd prefer to have the option to just say back up this, this, and this.
(Of course what I'd really like is for $$ to loosen up enough for me to be able to get a big honkin' backup drive.)

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

This makes me believe they are just engaging in disinformation. Why not just say there are issues? It's obvious to me that if 9C30 tacked on three new fixes, those three fixes didn't exist in 9C27. Therefore there are issues. It appears to me that the "no known issues" statement from Apple can not be trusted.

It depends how you define issues. Software can always be improved upon. These new builds may be adding a simple new feature once each build reveals that there isn't any issues, optimizing the build for better performance or they are waiting for a particular date to release it and happen to be ahead of schedule this time around.

Whatever the reason, 4 developer builds with no known issues is a very good thing.

[Cubert]

For me, Time Machine has 2 problems - it freezes up when entering the Time Machine "space field" during a backup and the time on the backups is off by about 15 minutes vs. my computer's time (which is set by the Apple servers and is correct).

HOWEVER, last week Time Machine saved my @$$!!! I accidentally made a major irreversible change to a file and hosed it. Time Machine to the rescue! 2 minutes later I was back up and running.

[Mr. H]

Originally Posted by GQB

One thing I'd like to see added to Time Machine is the ability to create a positive backup list as opposed to negative. Currently you can exclude directories from backup, but there are so many of those, that I'd prefer to have the option to just say back up this, this, and this.
(Of course what I'd really like is for $$ to loosen up enough for me to be able to get a big honkin' backup drive.)

Sounds like Carbon Copy Cloner might be more suitable for your needs.

[Brian Green]

Originally Posted by GQB

One thing I'd like to see added to Time Machine is the ability to create a positive backup list as opposed to negative. Currently you can exclude directories from backup, but there are so many of those, that I'd prefer to have the option to just say back up this, this, and this.
(Of course what I'd really like is for $$ to loosen up enough for me to be able to get a big honkin' backup drive.)

That's the problem I ran into with Time Machine. I have a Mac Pro that I dropped two 750GB drives into (and stripe RAID'ed them for a wonderful 1.5TB of elbow room) and moved the included 250GB drive into the third bay for basic storage. I have a 500GB external FW800 drive for Time Machine. The bad news is that the only way to back up everything is to have a Time Machine drive bigger than the drive you're backing up. Makes things difficult because you're not truly backing up everything. I had to exclude my Movies folder entirely (I shoot and edit HD 1080i footage) in order to drop below the threshold of my external.

I guess I just have to buy a huge 2TB external for my Time Machine backup if I want to backup everything.

[Mr. H]

Originally Posted by solipsism

Whatever the reason, 4 developer builds with no known issues is a very good thing.

I'm pretty sure that the "no known issues" means "there are no known issues with the things we reckon we've fixed". It doesn't mean "this build of OS X has no bugs".

I'm willing to bet that the number of open bugs for OS X numbers in the 1,000s.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

I just think Apple ought not use the words, "no known issues". That implies to me that their code is pristine and flawless.

What part of "known" is difficult to comprehend? That does no in any way imply that anything is flawless or pristine. It only states that Apple is unaware of any issues at the time of the build's release. The release to the larger developer community will help to find any issues that may be affecting commercial apps. If any are found Apple will fix accordingly and do internal testing, if the testing results are positive they may release another build without any known issues, again.

[Brian Green]

Originally Posted by solipsism

It depends how you define issues. Software can always be improved upon. These new builds may be adding a simple new feature once each build reveals that there isn't any issues, optimizing the build for better performance or they are waiting for a particular date to release it and happen to be ahead of schedule this time around.

Whatever the reason, 4 developer builds with no known issues is a very good thing.

Oh, I agree that four builds with no known issues is a good thing. I'd simply like them to be more descriptive with what they are adding. I know Apple will always be vague at best so it's a moot point.

The thing that keeps jumping into my head is I wonder if they are working on hammering out all of these bugs now and really making Leopard shine, what they are going to be doing with the rest of their point updates. Seems to me like they are going all out of squash every bug right here and now.

It makes me wonder...

[digitalclips]

looks like 10.5.2 will be one solid update all round.

Side bar: Off Topic I know but had to share ... As I have owned multiple Apple dealerships and a Mac software company I get asked by a lot of friends for help on Macs. One elderly lady I know phoned yesterday as she had a lot of problems with her new Computer. I was confused at first until I realized she didn't even have a Mac. She had bought a PC with Vista. When I pointed this out she assured me she had asked if they sold 'Apples' and she said "The young man assured me an Acer with Vista was the same thing. Vista is Apple and much better then XP as it had all the safety of OS X but this was just Microsoft's version of Apple." I was speechless!

[Brian Green]

Originally Posted by Mr. H

I'm pretty sure that the "no known issues" means "there are no known issues with the things we reckon we've fixed". It doesn't mean "this build of OS X has no bugs".

I'm willing to bet that the number of open bugs for OS X numbers in the 1,000s.

And that's more along the lines of what I think they need to state. It at least keeps things real and open for everyone to see. With thousands left to go, it doesn't make me wonder what they'll do with the rest of the point updates. This way I can see that they are a long way off from completion of Leopard (and may never even squash all the bugs before moving onto the next cat).

[hezekiahb]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

This makes me believe they are just engaging in disinformation. Why not just say there are issues? It's obvious to me that if 9C30 tacked on three new fixes, those three fixes didn't exist in 9C27. Therefore there are issues. It appears to me that the "no known issues" statement from Apple can not be trusted.

Quit wining about "no known issues". Apple isn't trying to fool anyone, they are letting the developers know that Apple is unaware of any issues so that the developers know to inform them of EVERY bug they find. If Apple lists known issues that is for the purpose of letting developers know what they are aware of, it isn't a confession to perfection or imperfection.

You people will wine about anything! This information wasn't even originally intended for you anyway, the information was for the developers & AppleInsider has been nice enough to help us not be in the dark on progress.

[DayLight]

Give them all the time they need to get it right.. well, as long as its included in the new MacBook Pro release, i'd be happy
wouldn't want to see this happening all over again

this = http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=...8-bbc5950107f1

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

And that's more along the lines of what I think they need to state. It at least keeps things real and open for everyone to see. With thousands left to go, it doesn't make me wonder what they'll do with the rest of the point updates. This way I can see that they are a long way off from completion of Leopard (and may never even squash all the bugs before moving onto the next cat).

You can append whatever you wish to the end of "no known issues." That statement is for developers and it is well known what is implied. As previously stated, no software is ever complete. At the very least, it can always be optimized further.

[airportextreme]

Does anyone know definitively if the latest build lets Time Machine back up to a disk attached to an Airport Extreme? (Here's hoping Leopard 10.5.2 enables this!)

[Stormchild]

This is good news, because Time Machine has some critical issues in 10.5.1, including errors and even kernel panics when trying to resume a backup that was interrupted unexpectedly (e.g. as a result of another kernel panic, or something that killed or locked up the backupd process or one of its parents). I've had to delete the ".inProgress" file after several interrupted backups to get Time Machine working again.

Time Machine seems to work very well otherwise, so it will be nice to get the remaining issues ironed out.

[noirdesir]

Originally Posted by Mr. H

I'm pretty sure that the "no known issues" means "there are no known issues with the things we reckon we've fixed". It doesn't mean "this build of OS X has no bugs".

I'm willing to bet that the number of open bugs for OS X numbers in the 1,000s.

I would formulate it slightly differently: "There no real issues right know that we intend to fix before release" as opposed to "There are some issues that we still intend to fix before release, so don't bother to report them and don't worry about them, we know they are there and we intend to fix them"

[timothyjay2004]

Originally Posted by Mr. H

I'm pretty sure that the "no known issues" means "there are no known issues with the things we reckon we've fixed". It doesn't mean "this build of OS X has no bugs".

I'm willing to bet that the number of open bugs for OS X numbers in the 1,000s.

You are correct, that is exactly what it means. When they say that there is "no known issues", that is in regards to the fixes that they have made. It does not imply that Mac OS X is perfect, nor does it imply that the fixes are perfect. It means, that with internal testing of the fixes, they haven't found any problems, but that the developers should explore the applications and commands that have had tweaks and report back if problems with those code alterations are found.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

Oh, I agree that four builds with no known issues is a good thing. I'd simply like them to be more descriptive with what they are adding. I know Apple will always be vague at best so it's a moot point.

The thing that keeps jumping into my head is I wonder if they are working on hammering out all of these bugs now and really making Leopard shine, what they are going to be doing with the rest of their point updates. Seems to me like they are going all out of squash every bug right here and now.

It makes me wonder...

There's one thing that four builds with no known issues suggests to me and that is that their internal QA process isn't picking up the issues found between builds. That's a little worrying though I don't know their QA process. Do Apple release builds straight from engineering or after QA?

But yes, it appears they want to nail pretty much everything in 10.5.2.

[bishely]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

Oh, I agree that four builds with no known issues is a good thing. I'd simply like them to be more descriptive with what they are adding. I know Apple will always be vague at best so it's a moot point.

The thing that keeps jumping into my head is I wonder if they are working on hammering out all of these bugs now and really making Leopard shine, what they are going to be doing with the rest of their point updates. Seems to me like they are going all out of squash every bug right here and now.

It makes me wonder...

As has been pointed out, 'no KNOWN issues' simply means that Apple don't KNOW of any issues with the software at the time of the build. As has also been pointed out, this is a standard phrase, and developers know what they're getting - Apple aren't misinforming or trying to hide problems; its just that you've misunderstood the meaning of the phrase.

Likewise, even if 10.5.2 'squashes every bug' in Leopard (oh how lovely that would be) it WON'T BE PERFECT! No code every is, really - there's always room for further optimisation, assuming there's a lot of code involved (which, in the case of a shiny new OS like Leopard, there is!). In addition to this, it is also possible that other minor bugs might show up that haven't so far been discovered because they relate to unusual software/hardware configs. One cannot assume that 10.5.2 will simply be 'fixed' and never ever need fixing again. Plus there's obviously room for further updating should any security vulnerabilities become known - not likely, but not impossible.

But I suspect that they plan to get Leopard more or less sorted in this update so they can focus on other tasks - like another os x (best to start early), or something else Steve Jobs hasn't told us about yet...

In the meantime, stop pointlessly grumbling about 'known issues', when you clearly don't know what you're on about...

[spoonyfork]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

This makes me believe they are just engaging in disinformation. Why not just say there are issues? It's obvious to me that if 9C30 tacked on three new fixes, those three fixes didn't exist in 9C27. Therefore there are issues. It appears to me that the "no known issues" statement from Apple can not be trusted.

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

— Former US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Feb. 12, 2002 Department of Defense news briefing

[bwik]

Cycle:

1) No known issues
2) Users report new problems
3) Apple fixes new problems
4) No known issues
5) Release new build and repeat

This is how it's done. Quibble with the masters if you have to. Makes you look dumb.

[Morod]

Originally Posted by digitalclips

looks like 10.5.2 will be one solid update all round.

Side bar: Off Topic I know but had to share ... As I have owned multiple Apple dealerships and a Mac software company I get asked by a lot of friends for help on Macs. One elderly lady I know phoned yesterday as she had a lot of problems with her new Computer. I was confused at first until I realized she didn't even have a Mac. She had bought a PC with Vista. When I pointed this out she assured me she had asked if they sold 'Apples' and she said "The young man assured me an Acer with Vista was the same thing. Vista is Apple and much better then XP as it had all the safety of OS X but this was just Microsoft's version of Apple." I was speechless!

Good gosh on the off-topic! Any chance you can share with us the name of the store this happened in? I would be taking that Acer back in a hot minute!
Morod

[John.B]

Remember this information isn't intended for the general public, its just getting picked up by AI, MR, etc. The audience for that information are developers of Mac applications who are using the builds to test their apps against. "No known issues" means any bug should be reported. That is different from "X, Y, and Z" aren't working correctly but here is a current build to test everything else. Late in a development cycle there shouldn't be a lot of issues identified as "not yet being fixed" in the current build.

Take off the tinfoil hats people, its not a conspiracy or an orchestrated campaign of disinformation. Reread bwik's post, he understands the software development lifecycle.

Originally Posted by bwik

Cycle:

1) No known issues
2) Users report new problems
3) Apple fixes new problems
4) No known issues
5) Release new build and repeat

This is how it's done. Quibble with the masters if you have to. Makes you look dumb.

[Brian Green]

I appreciate the continued slaps to the face by the likes of:

John B.
bwik
bishely
aegisdesign
solipsism

and others. You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues, but we're conveniently disregarding those at the present and focusing upon the issues we just fixed and that there aren't any issues we've found related to those specific fixes.

Furthermore, it's understood now, that this information is not to be heard by those of us who accept that a red light is, in fact, a red light. This is where audience is key, and speaking to them is focused upon what they know.

I'm a firefighter by trade. When I tell you that there are no known issues with your house, I'm confident that you're place isn't secretly burning. This is the difference between our perspectives.

As for the verbal abuse I've received on this thread regarding this issue, I'm surprised. I remember a time when it would have been explained in a different way, without negativity or insults thrown in. My how times change.

[bishely]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

I appreciate the continued slaps to the face by the likes of:

John B.
bwik
bishely
aegisdesign
solipsism

and others. You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues, but we're conveniently disregarding those at the present and focusing upon the issues we just fixed and that there aren't any issues we've found related to those specific fixes.

Furthermore, it's understood now, that this information is not to be heard by those of us who accept that a red light is, in fact, a red light. This is where audience is key, and speaking to them is focused upon what they know.

I'm a firefighter by trade. When I tell you that there are no known issues with your house, I'm confident that you're place isn't secretly burning. This is the difference between our perspectives.

As for the verbal abuse I've received on this thread regarding this issue, I'm surprised. I remember a time when it would have been explained in a different way, without negativity or insults thrown in. My how times change.

good god man, get over yourself - youre wrong. its not doublespeak, its not disinformation, its no KNOWN issues - apple themselves are not aware of any big issues, so they turn it over to the developers who then report any issues they find in their extensive testing of their own apps on the platform - apple themselves cant test EVERYTHING - no company can. this is the way it goes with ALL operating systems.

if my house is on fire, but i dont call the fire brigade, you would be able to accurately state that there were no known issues/fires at my house - that doesnt mean my house isnt actually on fire!

and you were treated with respect for long enough - youve rambled on so much and seemed to deliberately ignore the facts to such an extent im now convinced youre just trolling - surely you must understand why everyone is so exasperated with what youre saying?? your point has been answered/clarified - no known issues is not the same as 'this operating system works perfectly', and just because you dont understand that does not make it some orwellian conspiracy on apple's part!

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Brian Green

You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues

There is no doublespeak. They can't say there are no issues because all software has issues. Saying that there are issues on every release serves no useful purpose for the developers. So they are left with the honest statement that there are no known issues.

Developers are not getting upset when they discover that isn't working properly since that is the reason for sending the build to the developers in the first place. Should they really be saying,

"We have no new issues or anything pending that may negatively result in a malfunction caused by this point release, but we are going to let you try it to be sure before we finalize it for general OS X users to install.

This in no way means that the OS is perfect and pristine. In fact, we are sure there are issues that we have not yet discovered, as well as infinite ways to optimize the system further, and we also have a laundry list of things that will in no way effect the end user or developer so it's pretty pointless to list here so we won't. We will continue to make it better, faster, more efficient.

Sincerely,
Mr. Prolix Logorrhea Pleonasticstein"

[bishely]

lol... actually, maybe Brian's right - they SHOULD say that on every update!

[Mr. H]

You know, most of you in this thread are wrong.

There are, without question, open bugs in OS X, that Apple know about, that have not been fixed in any of these "no known issues" builds of 10.5.2.

i.e., if you guys think there were only 135 bugs in Apple's OS X bug-tracking database when they started work on 10.5.2, you are seriously deluded.

[Eluard]

Originally Posted by bishely

good god man, get over yourself - youre wrong. its not doublespeak, its not disinformation, its no KNOWN issues - apple themselves are not aware of any big issues, so they turn it over to the developers who then report any issues they find in their extensive testing of their own apps on the platform - apple themselves cant test EVERYTHING - no company can. this is the way it goes with ALL operating systems.

if my house is on fire, but i dont call the fire brigade, you would be able to accurately state that there were no known issues/fires at my house - that doesnt mean my house isnt actually on fire!

and you were treated with respect for long enough - youve rambled on so much and seemed to deliberately ignore the facts to such an extent im now convinced youre just trolling - surely you must understand why everyone is so exasperated with what youre saying?? your point has been answered/clarified - no known issues is not the same as 'this operating system works perfectly', and just because you dont understand that does not make it some orwellian conspiracy on apple's part!

Well said. God, Brian Greene, it is one thing to not understand something it is quite another to not understand it when it is explained to you over and over. Stop persisting as though even though you were wrong you had some kind of valid point to make and everyone should agree that it was valid. It wasn't. What Apple says to its developers is said so they they will understand it. You can learn what it means, but don't just jump in with accusations of misinformation on Apple's part. They aren't misinforming you, they aren't addressing you, but you are failing to properly inform yourself. God, enough with this dumb conspiracy nonsense!

[bishely]

Originally Posted by Mr. H

You know, most of you in this thread are wrong.

There are, without question, open bugs in OS X, that Apple know about, that have not been fixed in any of these "no known issues" builds of 10.5.2.

i.e., if you guys think there were only 135 bugs in Apple's OS X bug-tracking database when they started work on 10.5.2, you are seriously deluded.

true, but most of us were just taking issue with brian's implication that apple are somehow lying to people by saying there were 'no known issues' - usually, 'issues' are more major than 'bugs'.

but perfectly valid point, i stand corrected

[Mr. H]

Originally Posted by bishely

true, but most of us were just taking issue with brian's implication that apple are somehow lying to people by saying there were 'no known issues' - usually, 'issues' are more major than 'bugs'.

but perfectly valid point, i stand corrected

Indeed, Brian does seem to have missed the crucial point that the phrase "no known issues" is addressed directly and solely at developers and they know what it means. They aren't deceiving anyone.

[southerndoc]

I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.

For what it's worth, I agree that "no known issues" means that Apple is unaware of any bugs in the latest release.

For the person who said that Apple is aware of more bugs than what an update fixes, you are correct. Of course they know of more bugs. However, not every bug is slated to be fixed in a particular OS version. They prioritize the bug list and fix accordingly. So "no known issues" for 10.5.2 doesn't mean that those issues slated to be fixed in 10.5.3 are being ignored. "No known issues" pertains to that particular OS version.

Now I can't believe I've joined in the argument, which won't convince anyone to alter their views.

[Mr. H]

Originally Posted by southerndoc

I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.

I've got to disagree with you there

There's been a fair few times where I've put my hand up and said "I'm wrong/I made a mistake, my bad, sorry". Others do it too. Indeed, we've already had at least one person in this thread say "I stand corrected".

[Eluard]

Originally Posted by southerndoc

I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.

For what it's worth, I agree that "no known issues" means that Apple is unaware of any bugs in the latest release.

For the person who said that Apple is aware of more bugs than what an update fixes, you are correct. Of course they know of more bugs. However, not every bug is slated to be fixed in a particular OS version. They prioritize the bug list and fix accordingly. So "no known issues" for 10.5.2 doesn't mean that those issues slated to be fixed in 10.5.3 are being ignored. "No known issues" pertains to that particular OS version.

Now I can't believe I've joined in the argument, which won't convince anyone to alter their views.

Well you've convinced me! (Thus I refute you! )

People are not so irrational that they can just NEVER see a point — but they don't like to back down in public, even when they can see that they are wrong.

One thing that Leopard seems to have done is increase the noise level on discussion forums — much less so on AppleInsider than elsewhere I might add. There are waaay too many people who are complaining about Leopard who should just have heeded the advice not to install a dot zero release on their essential systems. It is just common sense. And they repeat the same whine every time mention is made of the next upgrade. I'm just waiting for it to start up here — yet again!

[John.B]

Mr. H, there are 135 issues targeted for fixes in this release. That doesn't mean there were only 135 bugs in 10.5 to be fixed, just 135 slated for 10.5.2. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the fixes in 10.5.2 were identified before 10.5 went out the door, and some small number of what actually got into 10.5.2 was identified by external testers just recently. Its a huge prioritization process, if you tried to identify and fix all the bugs in every point release you'd never get anything out the door. Remember that some of the bugs in the bug tracker database won't even be considered to be bugs, and some bugs will never be fixed in the 10.5.x time frame. Some issues start with a low priority until someone figures out it affects another critical feature (or even an important customer) and then the effort for the fix is re-estimated and the list is re-ranked. If this seems like an arbitrary and capricious way to fix bugs, welcome to the club. Nobody likes the whole "beauty contest" element of it, but it does tend to get the most important and fixable bugs squashed.