Game over: Toshiba pulls plug on ailing HD DVD format

[AppleInsider]

Following a thorough review of its overall strategy, Toshiba Corporation said Tuesday that it will no longer develop or manufacture HD DVD players, marking an end to the battle against Blu-ray for supremacy as the next-generation optical disc format.

The move comes just days after mega-retailers Wal-Mart and Best Buy, as well as movie rental service Netflix, abandon support of the format in favor of Blu-ray. Earlier in the year, major motion picture studio Warner Bros. announced similar plans, with Paramount and Universal rumored to eventually follow.

"We carefully assessed the long-term impact of continuing the so-called 'next-generation format war' and concluded that a swift decision will best help the market develop," said Atsutoshi Nishida, President and CEO of Toshiba Corporation. "While we are disappointed for the company and more importantly, for the consumer, the real mass market opportunity for high definition content remains untapped and Toshiba is both able and determined to use our talent, technology and intellectual property to make digital convergence a reality."

As a result, the Tokyo-based firm said it will focus its efforts on technologies that will drive mass market access to high definition content, such as high capacity NAND flash memory, small form factor hard disk drives, next generation CPUs, visual processing, and wireless and encryption technologies.

Toshiba will begin to reduce shipments of HD DVD players and recorders to retail channels immediately, aiming for cessation of the businesses segment by the end of March 2008. The company also plans to end volume production of HD DVD disk drives for such applications as PCs and games in the same timeframe, yet will continue to make efforts to meet customer requirements.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[Cory Bauer]

Earlier in the year, major motion picture studios Warner Bros., Paramount, and Universal announced similar plans.

Huh? Either I've been comatose, or Paramount & Universal never made an announcement about ditching HD DVD prior to today.

[DeaPeaJay]

Originally Posted by Cory Bauer

Huh? Either I've been comatose, or Paramount & Universal never made an announcement about ditching HD DVD prior to today.

Yeah, I thought it was the other way around.

Hopefully they'll release Star Trek Remastered on Blu Ray soon.

Good Riddance HD-DVD

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Cory Bauer

Huh? Either I've been comatose, or Paramount & Universal never made an announcement about ditching HD DVD prior to today.

I'm with you. There was mass speculation and a rumour about a clause if Warner were to leave the HD-DVD camp, but no official word that I recall.

Note: I was in a coma.

[Kasper]

Originally Posted by Cory Bauer

Huh? Either I've been comatose, or Paramount & Universal never made an announcement about ditching HD DVD prior to today.

Corrected, thanks.

K

[Lafe]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Toshiba will begin to reduce shipments of HD DVD players and recorders to retail channels immediately, aiming for cessation of the businesses segment by the end of March 2008. The company also plans to end volume production of HD DVD disk drives for such applications as PCs and games in the same timeframe, yet will continue to make efforts to meet customer requirements.

Ripped from next week's headlines:

Angry, Early HD DVD Adopters Placated With
US$100 Credit at Toshiba's Online Store.

You read it here first!

[teckstud]

Originally Posted by DeaPeaJay

Good Riddance HD-DVD

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning. There should be a total convergence of HD over the internet in five years at which time the general public will finally have HDTVs and skip Blu-ray enitirely. People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

[k2director]

You fought a good fight, Toshiba. Your consumer players were technically superior from day 1, offering picture-in-picture support, ethernet connectivity, and advanced interactivity....something that no Blu-Ray player even came close to doing until October 07 (and even then, only a single player--the Panasonic BD30).

You offered a superior product at a lower price (even before all the deep discounts leading up to Xmas), but unfortunately, Sony's Playstation 3 trojan horse strategy put considerably more Blu-Ray players in the market, which led to considerably higher Blu-Ray disc sales, which led to Warner's decision to go Blu-Ray exclusive, which led to the Netflix, Best-Buy and Walmart defections, which led to the death in the format.

Had Microsoft built HD-DVD in the Xbox 360, this story would have ended a different way...

[aviator]

Originally Posted by teckstud

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning..... People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

Yeah, you're totally right. Just the other day I was in Best Buy/Target/Wal-Mart and just couldn't believe how barren the isles in the CD section were. I actually saw some tumbleweed go by...

Seriously... look at the number of people who have iPods, and who use iTunes to buy their music. It's a huge number. Yet, it seems as though major retailers are still stocking their shelves with tangible medium. It's silly to think that because tv finally allows the user to rent an HD movie that movie studios will throw up their hands in surrender and never print another Blu-Ray DVD. I am still weary that the tv will be a huge success (although I own one, because now they're just so freakin' cool) because they still don't do much.

Oh, and of course, the biggest movie industry of them all, one that rivals MGM, Disney, etc, is that of the porn industry. I don't think you'll see any of that content become available through iTunes every.

[SirHaakon]

Originally Posted by teckstud

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning. There should be a total convergence of HD over the internet in five years at which time the general public will finally have HDTVs and skip Blu-ray enitirely. People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

I don't really understand why people are looking so desperately to a day when downloadable content trumps everything else. Don't get me wrong, it has its place: I would gladly rather "rent" a movie online than wait for Netflix to ship it to me, but for the content I want to OWN, physical media will always be better. First of all, DL Blu-Ray discs hold 50 GB - and I really don't think Apple is going to be piping 50GB downloads into homes anytime soon. Right now, we get heavily compressed videos (that aren't even offered in 1080p, I might add) that pale in comparison to their disc-based counterparts. What about portability? It's easy as pie to bring a movie to a friends' house or on a trip with a disc... just pop it in a player and you're good to go. Once the DRM-laden file is downloaded to your computer, however, what are you going to do with it? Burn it to Blu-ray? Haha... And lastly, you're entrusting your media to a hard drive, which, I dunno how much success you've had, but mine tend to die in an average of 3 years or so. Someone will likely bring up a SSD solution as an alternative, but those options are going to remain extremely expensive for a good while and even then won't match up capacity-wise. Like many movie enthusiasts, I have hundreds of DVDs... that's going to require a mammoth amount of space in a 1080 format, even if it is mildly compressed. One disk failure and you've lost everything. It's just not a good solution.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all about convenience. But I do care very much for quality, for portability, and for the longevity of the media I own. "Downloading" movies is not the way to accomplish this.

[Felix01]

Originally Posted by k2director

Had Microsoft built HD-DVD in the Xbox 360, this story would have ended a different way...

Woulda been shoulda been.

Sony learned plenty from the Betamax - VHS war which *they* lost despite having a technically superior product. Sony management didn't forget that the company with a strategy which clearly recognizes market share rules will be the victor; thus, history didn't repeat itself.

[steviet02]

Originally Posted by teckstud

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning. There should be a total convergence of HD over the internet in five years at which time the general public will finally have HDTVs and skip Blu-ray enitirely. People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

Thats hysterical, pot meet black kettle, black kettle meet pot...

[TBaggins]

Originally Posted by k2director

Had Microsoft built HD-DVD in the Xbox 360, this story would have ended a different way...

Maybe, but MS wasn't about to do that, as including HD-DVD on every 360 would've boosted the price and cost them sales early on. They were focused on the short-term.

Long-term, it would've paid off, if HD-DVD had ended up winning the format war... but MS didn't, and HD-DVD didn't, and now Sony, the Blu-Ray camp, and the PS3 get to reap the rewards.

Toshiba is a good company, it's sad that someone had to lose...


.

[minderbinder]

Originally Posted by teckstud

People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

I'd agree with that for the most part. But since bluray is compatible and the players upscale well, many people will likely keep their existing dvds but buy new titles in the HD format.

I don't know if bluray will ever get as big as DVD (many people will just stick with that indefinitely), but I don't see disks getting killed off by downloads for a while.

Originally Posted by k2director

Had Microsoft built HD-DVD in the Xbox 360, this story would have ended a different way...

It would have helped HDDVD, but it would have increased the price of the 360 substantially, which would have slowed adoption of the platform. Using brand new optical tech may have delayed the release as well.

[Bancho]

Originally Posted by teckstud

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning. There should be a total convergence of HD over the internet in five years at which time the general public will finally have HDTVs and skip Blu-ray enitirely. People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

Who needs to "double dip" at all? My DVD collection plays fine on my PS3 and I can re-buy a couple of the ones that really are worth it in BR. For stuff I don't want to own I have Netflix.

So, I can buy a device that only lets me "rent" HD content and won't play my existing DVDs? Yeah, my entertainment center is safe from being polluted with an aTV for the forseeable future. Maybe when aTV is re-re-released next year with a more than just a new software upgrade it'll be worth it but I'm taking the "wait and see" approach with that.

[franksargent]

Originally Posted by teckstud

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning. There should be a total convergence of HD over the internet in five years at which time the general public will finally have HDTVs and skip Blu-ray enitirely. People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

10GB to 25 GB down;loads for a single movie, takes several hours minimum, depending on broadband service provider, most people don't even use the internet all that much.

Retail chains going away? Nope.

Brick and morter or mailorder rentals going away? Nope.

Budget Blu-ray players will drop below the $200 price point by this holiday season.

Blu-ray movies are already at the same price points as DVD movies.

In 5 years, Blu-ray burners (and by default players) will be at the same price point DVD burners are at today, ~$30.

Oh, and HDTV's will penetrate the market, much quicker than 5 years from now, heck 1080i ATSC is only a year away (2/17/09) in the USA. Check out any Wal=Mart and see how much shelf space is devoted to CRT TV's versus HDTV's.

Is the iTunes online store outselling Wal-Mart in music sales? Nope. And that's with music tracks at a few MB's each.

[keithw]

Originally Posted by teckstud

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning. There should be a total convergence of HD over the internet in five years at which time the general public will finally have HDTVs and skip Blu-ray enitirely. People are not going to double dip their collections for yet another format that will eventually loose to downloads.

First, Apple TV is NOT true HD. Second, with the bandwidth required for downloading 25 to 50GB (which a Blu-Ray can hold,) it will take forever, even with the best download speeds available now or in the forseeable future.

Now the only question, when is Apple going to put a Blu-Ray burner in iMacs and MacPros so we can do 50GB backups and author/master our own Blu-Ray discs?...

[zunx]

Great! The war is over. The best wins. More bitrate, more capacity for extras and backup (read R and RW disks). Now, be prepared for a great 1080p (1920 x 1080 pixels) experience!

[beingnickb]

Originally Posted by Felix01

Woulda been shoulda been.

Sony learned plenty from the Betamax - VHS war which *they* lost despite having a technically superior product. Sony management didn't forget that the company with a strategy which clearly recognizes market share rules will be the victor; thus, history didn't repeat itself.

Who are these people that always think Betamax was technically superior? Why? Because it offered 10 more lines of resolution? Great. I'll take 10 LESS lines of resolution and have a medium that I can use for more than an hour.

Not that it matters much now...

[Cory Bauer]

Originally Posted by Kasper

Corrected, thanks.

K

Good man!

[YodaMac]

Well, it's not that much of a "win" for Sony, since SJ already declared all optical media is antiquated. Apple TV already has 720 HD video for download.. wont be that long before higher resolutions are possible as well.

The HD from AppleTV IS in fact HD quality. (and better than Comcast HD!)

And are you telling me that a BluRay disc takes 50GB to hold just a movie???!! Or is it a movie, extras, outtakes, menus, etc...

...So downloading a higher resolution HD movie WILL come to pass, and BlueRay will pass as well.

[minderbinder]

Originally Posted by keithw

First, Apple TV is NOT true HD.

There's no such thing as "true HD". There are a bunch of things that fall under the HD umbrella, they defined the standard in a pretty loose way.

Is it lower bitrate and resolution than bluray? Sure. But the term "true HD" is meaningless.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by keithw

First, Apple TV is NOT true HD. Second, with the bandwidth required for downloading 25 to 50GB (which a Blu-Ray can hold,) it will take forever, even with the best download speeds available now or in the forseeable future.

Now the only question, when is Apple going to put a Blu-Ray burner in iMacs and MacPros so we can do 50GB backups and author/master our own Blu-Ray discs?...

1) Define HD. AppleTV Tech Specs state it can do "Up to 5 Mbps, Progressive Main Profile (CAVLC) with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps (maximum resolution: 1280 by 720 pixels at 24 fps." That sounds like HD to me.

2) When you say "Apple TV is NOT true HD" are you referring to the device or to the iTS HD downloadable media? They are different. If you mean the latter, that would be like saying the iPod can't do "CD quality" audio because iTS audio is 128kbps, even though iTS HD is HD, even though it's not HD optical media quality.

3) Forever, while a commonly used hyperbolism, isn't the best choice for any argument, especially in a technical forum.

50GB x 8 = 400Gb = 409,600Mb
409,600Mb ÷ 3Mb/s transfer rate = 136,533secs (rounded)
136,533secs ÷ 60 = 2275.55min ÷ 60 = 38hours (rounded)

* Is that math correct?

4) You can already buy internal and external 3rd-party burners for Macs. I know Toast Titanium already has built in authoring for this drives. The one thing you can't do is play DRM'd media.

[Eriamjh]

Millions wasted because they couldn't agree on one standard as they did with DVD.

Oh, and Apple's crappy low-bit downloads are not true-HD. Why? Because of compression. Too much compression. Besides, I will not settle for anything less than 1080p. Apple TV only supports 720p upconverted to 1080p.

I'm glad it's over. Bring on cheaper blu-ray movies and players.

[minderbinder]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

Millions wasted because they couldn't agree on one standard as they did with DVD.

I agree that the whole HD transition has been a complete clusterfark in a multitude of ways. Just wait for the s***storm we'll inevitably see when they shut off analog NTSC broadcasting.

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

Oh, and Apple's crappy low-bit downloads are not true-HD.

Again, there's no such thing as "true HD". As crappy as you think it is, it still falls under HD along with crappy cable and broadcast HD.

They absolutely are HD. Your beef is with the guys who set the HD standards and didn't set minimum specs to use the term.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

Millions wasted because they couldn't agree on one standard as they did with DVD.

Oh, and Apple's crappy low-bit downloads are not true-HD. Why? Because of compression. Too much compression. Besides, I will not settle for anything less than 1080p. Apple TV only supports 720p upconverted to 1080p.

I'm glad it's over. Bring on cheaper blu-ray movies and players.

Cool. Can you point me to this industry definition that defines the minimum bitrate for HD media. I've looked and I just can't seem to find it.

[caliminius]

Originally Posted by YodaMac

Well, it's not that much of a "win" for Sony, since SJ already declared all optical media is antiquated. Apple TV already has 720 HD video for download.. wont be that long before higher resolutions are possible as well.

The HD from AppleTV IS in fact HD quality. (and better than Comcast HD!)

And are you telling me that a BluRay disc takes 50GB to hold just a movie???!! Or is it a movie, extras, outtakes, menus, etc...

...So downloading a higher resolution HD movie WILL come to pass, and BlueRay will pass as well.

You mean the same Steve Jobs who stated nobody wants to watch video on their iPod? The same Steve Jobs running Apple Inc. that now only offers one model of iPod that doesn't play video?

Sorry, Jobs is just your typical con man. He'll say whatever is in his best interest at the time. I guess if Steve said breathing oxygen was antiquated we could expect to find you dead from suffocation the next morning.

[TBaggins]

Originally Posted by YodaMac

Well, it's not that much of a "win" for Sony, since SJ already declared all optical media is antiquated.

Stevie is likely jumping the gun on that by a few years... something he tends to do. Remember the "Year of HD" he declared awhile back?

And of course, his declarations about many things are colored by what he himself has available to sell at any given time. Which is as it should be, if he's watching out for Apple's bottom line at all times.

For myself, I predict that Blu-Ray will have a very nice 5-year run or so as a format. Blu-Ray's successor in physical media may end up being shoved aside by downloads, but I don't get the feeling that'll happen to Blu-Ray... I see BR and dloads co-existing happily during BR's run.

Movie dloading is just too early in it's infancy, and there's a lot of inertia and infrastructure behind the ol' disc-based format. Some of it is entrenched consumer mindsets that take awhile to change.


.

[mgabrys]

Originally Posted by teckstud

Don't be so smug. It'll be good riddance Blu-ray sooner than you think. Now that Apple has downloadable HD movies , this is only the beginning.

Right - I'll just pipe in that 50 gig file on my Comast connection quicker than quick. Get REAL. Perhaps if everyone had an OC3 line - but you're dreaming pal. Do the downloads even have all the extras at the moment? What - did you get burned by siding with the Sony is teh EV!L camp?

"Suckers" could be the word that effectively describes people who make emotional and group-think based decisions rather than looking at hard-considerations.

Let me guess - you also went to see Snakes on a Plane and had high hopes for Ron Paul. Teh Interwebs ain't life. Get over it.

[teckstud]

Originally Posted by mgabrys

Right - I'll just pipe in that 50 gig file on my Comast connection quicker than quick. Get REAL. Perhaps if everyone had an OC3 line - but you're dreaming pal. Do the downloads even have all the extras at the moment? What - did you get burned by siding with the Sony is teh EV!L camp?

Sucker.

Let me guess - you also went to see Snakes on a Plane and had high hopes for Ron Paul. Teh Interwebs ain't life. Get over it.

I bet you still own a SOny betamax,minidisc, memory stick and UMD too. You'll see in 5 years when compression and connection are way beyond what your tiny brain can ever imagine.
LOSER.

[zanshin]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

Besides, I will not settle for anything less than 1080p.

You mean you're ONLY watching standard definition television because you're waiting for everything to be 1080p? Cuz that's insane -- there's a lot of good stuff available that's 720p and 1080i, and it's a lot better than standard def.

Unless, of course, you mean you'll settle for anything less part of the time for the programming you rent by the month, but not for discs you plan to own.

[TBaggins]

Originally Posted by teckstud

I bet you still own a SOny betamax,minidisc, memory stick and UMD too. You'll see in 5 years when compression and connection are way beyond what your tiny brain can ever imagine.
LOSER.

Don't get banned like that mdotdubz guy (or whatever his name was) just yesterday.

All he did was call ppl idiot and loser, nothing worse, but he did it consistently enough to get his ass canned by the mods. My guess is that "tiny brain" and loser will get it done for you too, if you keep it up.

Not hating, just watchin' out for ya.

.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by zanshin

You mean you're ONLY watching standard definition television because you're waiting for everything to be 1080p? Cuz that's insane -- there's a lot of good stuff available that's 720p and 1080i, and it's a lot better than standard def.

I'm certain the peopel that say this are the ones that were waiting for 720p a decade ago and will be waiting for Ultra High Definition Video once 1080p is the norm. Check out the image, it makes 1080p look likeiPod Nano resolution.

[zanshin]

Originally Posted by k2director

You fought a good fight, Toshiba. Your consumer players were technically superior from day 1, offering picture-in-picture support, ethernet connectivity, and advanced interactivity....something that no Blu-Ray player even came close to doing until October 07 (and even then, only a single player--the Panasonic BD30).

You offered a superior product at a lower price (even before all the deep discounts leading up to Xmas), but unfortunately, Sony's Playstation 3 trojan horse strategy put considerably more Blu-Ray players in the market, which led to considerably higher Blu-Ray disc sales, which led to Warner's decision to go Blu-Ray exclusive, which led to the Netflix, Best-Buy and Walmart defections, which led to the death in the format.

Had Microsoft built HD-DVD in the Xbox 360, this story would have ended a different way...

I'm not tech-spec qualified to vouch for superiority of one format over another, but the one thing that was decidedly in Toshiba's favor in the early days was the HUGE point that HD DVDs could be manufactured in existing DVD manufacturing facilities, with little change in the lines and equipment investment; Blu-Ray supposedly required a new plant process altogether. I wish I had a dollar for every discussion I heard about how the major studios would favor the cheaper and faster delivery of existing multi-plant manufacturing over huge investment and startup costs of a single Blu-Ray production facility.

I guess that didn't turn out.

[zanshin]

Originally Posted by solipsism

I'm certain the peopel that say this are the ones that were waiting for 720p a decade ago and will be waiting for Ultra High Definition Video once 1080p is the norm. Check out the image, it makes 1080p look likeiPod Nano resolution.

UHDV: the RED camera http://www.red.com/cameras/technology

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by caliminius

You mean the same Steve Jobs who stated nobody wants to watch video on their iPod? The same Steve Jobs running Apple Inc. that now only offers one model of iPod that doesn't play video?

Sorry, Jobs is just your typical con man. He'll say whatever is in his best interest at the time. I guess if Steve said breathing oxygen was antiquated we could expect to find you dead from suffocation the next morning.

You don't HAVE to be such a troll, do you? I don't guess it's ever occurred to you that Steve Jobs is simply a man who speaks his mind. He's strongly opinionated, and he's not shy of throwing his opinions around. He's successful NOT because he's a con man, but because his insights are usually extraordinary.

However.

Unlike the psycho you seem to think he is, he also pays very sharp attention to the market. He said he didn't think people wanted to watch video on a tiny screen. I imagine he believed it. Hell, so did I. But a ton of people were running around saying that they DID want to watch video on an iPod. So Apple made one.

Why has have you got to draw such asinine and frankly loony conclusions like "I guess if Steve said breathing oxygen was antiquated we could expect to find you dead from suffocation the next morning"??

He's also made statements about downloads vs Blu-Ray. He might be wrong. But he's right more than he's wrong. That's the reason people are fans of Apple. Not because of some creepy cult thing. But because Apple does really cool things, with innovations that go far deeper than just eye-candy.

If you don't get that, fine. You don't get it. But you don't need to get snotty about it. There's enough of that going around, these days.

[zanshin]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

... Steve Jobs is simply a man who speaks his mind. He's strongly opinionated, and he's not shy of throwing his opinions around. He's successful NOT because he's a con man, but because his insights are usually extraordinary.. ... he also pays very sharp attention to the market. He said he didn't think people wanted to watch video on a tiny screen. I imagine he believed it. Hell, so did I. But a ton of people were running around saying that they DID want to watch video on an iPod. So Apple made one.

He's also made statements about downloads vs Blu-Ray. He might be wrong. But he's right more than he's wrong. That's the reason people are fans of Apple. Because Apple does really cool things, with innovations that go far deeper than just eye-candy.

...but I still haven't forgiven him for thinking the hockey-puck mouse that came with the Bondi-blue G3 PM was a good idea...

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by zanshin

UHDV: the RED camera http://www.red.com/cameras/technology

Good God. 4520 X 2540. I'd heard about this.

Does anybody know the answer to this: when somebody like George Lucas films a movie in digital, what resolution are they filming? Is this it?

[minderbinder]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

You don't HAVE to be such a troll, do you? I don't guess it's ever occurred to you that Steve Jobs is simply a man who speaks his mind. He's strongly opinionated, and he's not shy of throwing his opinions around. He's successful NOT because he's a con man, but because his insights are usually extraordinary.

Troll? He was making a valid point. While I wouldn't go as far as calling Jobs a con man, there's no question that he spins apple's present product line as all consumers will ever need. Until apple ships a product, he insists that consumers don't want it and that apple will never do it.

His forward looking statements about products simply can't be taken seriously - they are made to maximize sales, not speak the truth.

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by zanshin

...but I still haven't forgiven him for thinking the hockey-puck mouse that came with the Bondi-blue G3 PM was a good idea...

LOL. It was really cute, until you started mousing around and realized you had the damned thing sideways in your hand. I've always liked to imagine if the hockey-puck had turned out to be popular. Imagine a hockey-puck Mighty Mouse!