Orange says iPhone 3G to sell for 149 euros on July 17th

[AppleInsider]

France Telecom's Orange said Thursday it will launch Apple's much anticipated iPhone 3G in France on July 17th with prices starting at 149 euro ($233) for the 8GB model.

Handset prices and plans

The exclusive French carrier of the touch-screen handset said the 16GB model will fetch 199 euro. Both subsidized prices require that customers also purchase a subscription to one of its existing "Orange for iPhone" plans (below), or its Origami Star (from 3 hours), First or Jet plans.

With other plans (except time-cutoff and pay-as-you-go), the 8Gb iPhone will sell from 199 euro and the 16Gb model from 249 euro, Orange said. For instance, customers can get the 8GB model for 199 euro with a one-hour Origami Star plan that costs 32 euro and offers up to 500MB of monthly internet access.

Meanwhile, "Orange for iPhone" plans (below) start at 49 euro per month for a plan that includes 2 hours of normal talk time, 2 hours of late evening and weekend minutes, and 50 SMS text messages. The most expensive plan is priced at 149 euro and includes 12 hours of normal talk time, 12 hours of nights and weekends, and 1000 SMS messages. All "Orange for iPhone" plans include Visual Voicemail and up to 500MB of monthly data usage.



Orange will also offer the 8Gb 3G iPhone from 199 euro and the 16Gb version from 249 euro with a 24-month contract under its loyalty upgrade program.

Preferential upgrade offer

As part of the carrier's "Change your mobile" promotion, Orange customers who purchased an iPhone before 12 June 2008 and are using it with an Orange plan (except time-cutoff, Initial and Mobicarte) will be able to buy the 3G iPhone for 99 euro through a 100 euro refund valid until 31 October 2008. The offer requires a 24-month contract.

iPhone 3G for business

The 3G iPhone will also launch for Orange Business Services clients on July 17th. Business clients will also be eligible for the "Change your mobile" offer.

Orange said its 3G network currently covers over 66 percent of the French population.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[Hutcho]

Ahh.. good to see that the French are giving the Germans a bit of competition in the "who can come up with the crappiest iPhone plan in the world" stakes.. I don't feel quite so bad now.

[merdhead]

Something has to be said for the subsidised phone model when people get in a lather about paying "less" for a iPhone then don't seem to be bothered by the stiff tariffs they end up paying.

One thing can be said about the new phone: Apple is paying less to build it, charging more to sell it and making a wider profit margin.

[Hutcho]

But the product is better, so I say hats off to Apple if they can make it for less and make more profit, all without charging the consumer considerably more..

However, the "only $199 for an iPhone" is just marketing hype and anyone that bought into that crap, believed for even a second that it would be $199 without any catches or asked themselves "why would I buy an iTouch now?" are simply fools.

[anantksundaram]

Wow, those plans look like an expensive joke!

Is this normal for France?

[studiomusic]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Wow, those plans look like an expensive joke!

Is this normal for France?

From my experience, yes. I lived there for 8 years and cell phones are beaucoup bucks! Unless you do a pay as you go... but then you pay more per minute - ok if you don't use many minutes.

[merdhead]

Originally Posted by Hutcho

But the product is better, so I say hats off to Apple if they can make it for less and make more profit, all without charging the consumer considerably more..

However, the "only $199 for an iPhone" is just marketing hype and anyone that bought into that crap, believed for even a second that it would be $199 without any catches or asked themselves "why would I buy an iTouch now?" are simply fools.

Exactly. We have "analysts" saying that Apple earns about $199 and it costs about the same to make but they plan to make profits on "additional services". What a joke, Apple have always sold premium positioned products with a nice profit margin, and this is no different.

I'm very happy that Apple is making fat profits on the iPhone. Maybe the "me too" morons in the marketplace will pull their finger out and start focusing on the user experience, design quality and being boldly different. Until then Apple will continue sucking up their top end customers and profits. They always have the third world, where people like Nokia make most of their money.

[calguy]

I can't believe those price plans! How many people actually only talk on their phone and average of 2 minutes a day if they were to take the minimum plan? I can see if a phone is purchased for emergency use for that low talk time, but it seems that the emphasis is use for visual voicemail and text messages. And if that is the case, wouldn't anyone be better off with an iTouch and just connect to some wifi?

What would the roaming charge be per minute if a US phone is used in France? That must be a real shocker!

[merdhead]

Originally Posted by calguy

I can't believe those price plans! How many people actually only talk on their phone and average of 2 minutes a day if they were to take the minimum plan? I can see if a phone is purchased for emergency use for that low talk time, but it seems that the emphasis is use for visual voicemail and text messages. And if that is the case, wouldn't anyone be better off with an iTouch and just connect to some wifi?

What would the roaming charge be per minute if a US phone is used in France? That must be a real shocker!

You forgot a couple of things: internet access and in most places other than the US there is no charge when someone calls you on the phone. I think low minute plans are great. I much prefer email to talking.

[calguy]

Originally Posted by merdhead

You forgot a couple of things: internet access and in most places other than the US there is no charge when someone calls you on the phone. I think low minute plans are great. I much prefer email to talking.

Yes, I can see the advantage for use with email. Are you saying that incoming calls are not charged for time use? Is that from any phone or only from other cellular customers from the same provider?

[ianmac47]

More importantly, how much will they sell the mandatory unlocked version for?

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by merdhead

They always have the third world, where people like Nokia make most of their money.

Nokia's Q1 2008 results say you're talking crap...

http://www.nokia.com/link?cid=EDITORIAL_984926

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by calguy

Yes, I can see the advantage for use with email. Are you saying that incoming calls are not charged for time use? Is that from any phone or only from other cellular customers from the same provider?

Most of the world operates on the basis that the person phoning you pays for the call unlike the USA. If you only ever receive calls and texts in your home country in Europe, it costs you nothing and doesn't subtract minutes from your call allowance.

If your home country is France and you're in the UK however (ie. you're using international roaming) then both the caller and yourself split the cost. It doesn't subtract from your call allowance though.

[samab]

EU is preparing to change to the US system of charging for incoming calls.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7148e92c-3...0779fd2ac.html

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by samab

EU is preparing to change to the US system of charging for incoming calls.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7148e92c-3...0779fd2ac.html

It's been suggested many times and that report isn't the EU preparing to change. It's the EU commissioner being prepared to accept changes to the carriers business model which seem to be being threatened because the commissioner is asking for changes elsewhere.

I can't see it happening without massive consumer revolt. It won't be popular.

On the other hand, Reding is doing reasonably well at reducing roaming charges.

[samab]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

I can't see it happening without massive consumer revolt. It won't be popular.

That's penny wise and dollar stupid if there is a consumer revolt.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by samab

That's penny wise and dollar stupid if there is a consumer revolt.

In what way, other than the typical American-arrogant way?

The rest of the world, where this technology and infrastructure is far more evolved, must be pretty stupid, huh?

[Hutcho]

Originally Posted by samab

That's penny wise and dollar stupid if there is a consumer revolt.

It really depends on what they offer us though doesn't it? You can see with the prices above, that it is likely they will make the change so that they make more money and the consumer gets a worse deal. That's the way things are done over here.

[fpsanders]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

I can't see it happening without massive consumer revolt. It won't be popular.

I agree. For users who have never paid for incoming calls, except for roaming, such a model would be offensive. Why pay when someone else is calling you? As long as we have had phone plans in the Netherlands, we have never paid for incoming calls. Small chance it will happen in the future.

[samab]

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

In what way, other than the typical American-arrogant way?

The rest of the world, where this technology and infrastructure is far more evolved, must be pretty stupid, huh?

No, I think it is the rest of the world that is arrogant.

Back in 1999/2000, numerous European countries (Sweden, Ireland, France) were arrogant in their assumption that their regulators can decide 3G licenses based on "beauty contests" instead of American style auctions. Guess how it turned out --- they were all a mess. Sweden and Ireland are both doing it the American auction way now.

Back in the GSM era, EU was arrogant in their assumption that it is best to have a single technology in their licensing scheme. Now they are all talking about technology neutral licenses like the Americans.

Back in the GSM era, EU was arrogant in their assumption that their regulators should be the only ones who decide where the spectrums should go. Now they are all talking about carriers can trade spectrums amongst themselves like the Americans.

Back before the iphone's launch in Europe, people around the world has been arrogant in their assumption that their country gives them numerous consumer protection laws on simlocked phones and that the US is a backward country with no simlocking laws. Guess how it turned out when the iphone launched in Europe 6 months ago --- all these people were proven wrong.

It turned out that basically EVERYTHING that the Europeans were doing --- have been wrong.

Actions speak louder than words. Europe is moving everything from auctions to technology neutrality to spectrum trading to the American system. Now they are talking about American system of mobile termination charge.

[aegisdesign]

The carriers may like the American system but for consumers it's a bad thing. Some of my phones cost me no more than £10 a year because they are only for incoming calls and all I need do is buy £5 credit every 6 months.

How in the world would paying for incoming calls be better in any way, shape or form?

[samab]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

The carriers may like the American system but for consumers it's a bad thing. Some of my phones cost me no more than £10 a year because they are only for incoming calls and all I need do is buy £5 credit every 6 months.

How in the world would paying for incoming calls be better in any way, shape or form?

So you are just off-loading the costs to your friends --- because you never phone them.

Consumers shouldn't care whether they charge you this or charge you that --- as long as your overall out-of-pocket expense is lower.

[winterspan]

Originally Posted by samab

No, I think it is the rest of the world that is arrogant.

Ha, that is a good one. I completely disagree, and I'm an American.

Originally Posted by samab

Back in the GSM era, EU was arrogant in their assumption that it is best to have a single technology in their licensing scheme. Now they are all talking about technology neutral licenses like the Americans.

This was actually one of the best things that Europe got correct. The ability to use ANY phone on ANY network either nationwide or throughout all of Europe has been an excellent asset. In the United States, it has been an incredible pain in the ass having phones tied to carriers not only because of business interest, but also because of technology. Not only can I not transfer an expensive phone from Verizon to AT&T or vice versa because of technology, but because the CDMA carriers didn't even have to implement their version of the SIM card, you can't even move a CDMA phone among CDMA carriers. This makes the mobile market much less competitive than it would be if all the carriers were forced to standardize on GSM/UMTS. If that were the case, the flexibility provided by being able to move phones among carriers at will would lead to a batter market. Even WORSE was/is the fact that you were required to use CDMA phones solely sourced from the carrier, and you couldn't just freely purchase an otherwise compatible unlocked phone, or phone from another country.

Originally Posted by samab

It turned out that basically EVERYTHING that the Europeans were doing --- have been wrong.

I'm not even going to comment on telecom anymore, but they sure seem to have a lot of other things going RIGHT compared to the dying empire....

[samab]

Originally Posted by winterspan

Ha, that is a good one. I completely disagree, and I'm an American.

This was actually one of the best things that Europe got correct. The ability to use ANY phone on ANY network either nationwide or throughout all of Europe has been an excellent asset. In the United States, it has been an incredible pain in the ass having phones tied to carriers not only because of business interest, but also because of technology. Not only can I not transfer an expensive phone from Verizon to AT&T or vice versa because of technology, but because the CDMA carriers didn't even have to implement their version of the SIM card, you can't even move a CDMA phone among CDMA carriers. This makes the mobile market much less competitive than it would be if all the carriers were forced to standardize on GSM/UMTS. If that were the case, the flexibility provided by being able to move phones among carriers at will would lead to a batter market. Even WORSE was/is the fact that you were required to use CDMA phones solely sourced from the carrier, and you couldn't just freely purchase an otherwise compatible unlocked phone, or phone from another country.

I'm not even going to comment on telecom anymore, but they sure seem to have a lot of other things going RIGHT compared to the dying empire....

It also meant that they all fell into the same WCDMA nightmare for most of the decade.

It also meant that cool new technologies such as wimax don't even have a chance to see the market --- because wcdma would have gotten all the 3G extension spectrum space (which is the same spectrum space that wimax runs on).

There is a reason why even Europe is moving towards all technology neutral spectrum licensing from now on.

The US cell phone service not competitive? Just look at the insane high prices of the first gen iphone plans in UK, France and Germany.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by samab

So you are just off-loading the costs to your friends --- because you never phone them.

No, it's a business support line where my customers can ring me outside of office hours (generally), wherever I am. Usually I'm home though so I use SIP for outgoing, or email when their issue is solved.

Originally Posted by samab

Consumers shouldn't care whether they charge you this or charge you that --- as long as your overall out-of-pocket expense is lower.

But it won't be lower as you'd be paying for incoming calls on a line that previously cost you nothing. It just doesn't add up.

[samab]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

No, it's a business support line where my customers can ring me outside of office hours (generally), wherever I am. Usually I'm home though so I use SIP for outgoing, or email when their issue is solved.

But it won't be lower as you'd be paying for incoming calls on a line that previously cost you nothing. It just doesn't add up.

One --- under the US system --- the carriers don't have to charge for incoming calls. Sprint Nextel in the US doesn't charge for incoming calls.

For the general population --- not you with your support hotline --- if people get more than 2x amount of minutes for a lower price, then it shouldn't matter whether they have to pay for incoming calls or not.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by samab

The US cell phone service not competitive? Just look at the insane high prices of the first gen iphone plans in UK, France and Germany.

Haha! That was just the iPhone plans though that were insane. If you weren't buying an iPhone you could get much more sane tariffs.

[samab]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Haha! That was just the iPhone plans though that were insane. If you weren't buying an iPhone you could get much more sane tariffs.

I disagree with you.

Just look at the 3G iphone plan in the UK --- it's cheaper than the US iphone plan.

But the major problem is that O2 charges the same 35 pound per month for the same 600 minutes for the same 500 SMS to the general population --- yet the general population doesn't get the unlimited data as the iphone plan.

The general population gets the shaft in UK.

http://www.o2.co.uk/mobilestariffs/t...monthlytariffs

[Londor]

Originally Posted by samab

I disagree with you.

Just look at the 3G iphone plan in the UK --- it's cheaper than the US iphone plan.

But the major problem is that O2 charges the same 35 pound per month for the same 600 minutes for the same 500 SMS to the general population --- yet the general population doesn't get the unlimited data as the iphone plan.

The general population gets the shaft in UK.

http://www.o2.co.uk/mobilestariffs/t...monthlytariffs

No, they do not. It seems that you can not read because that tariff of £35 includes a free phone which can be a Nokia N95 8GB, a XDA Orbit 2, etc. (Full list of free phones on the £35 tariff). If you want the same 600 minutes & 500 SMS plan without a phone it costs £25. How is that shafting the general population?

The reality is that the US model of charging for incoming calls is dumb and it is the reason why the US is at least 3 years behind the rest of the world in mobile technology and mobile phones.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by samab

One --- under the US system --- the carriers don't have to charge for incoming calls. Sprint Nextel in the US doesn't charge for incoming calls.

ok, and I'm taking your assertion as true without looking up the details, but that's irrelevant to your point, that it was in the consumers interest to adopt the US system. It isn't. The carriers even said that it may lead to extra charges for incoming calls in the piece quoted earlier.

Originally Posted by samab

For the general population --- not you with your support hotline --- if people get more than 2x amount of minutes for a lower price, then it shouldn't matter whether they have to pay for incoming calls or not.

Most people NEVER use the allowance they have got already. Why would they want twice the amount AND a bill for incoming calls?

My kids both have phones so we can track them down. They'd be horrified if they had to pay for incoming calls out of their allowance.

Originally Posted by samab

I disagree with you.

[snip]

Londor already pointed out where you went wrong with the existing tariff but prior to that the original iPhone tariff here gave you what other people were getting for £20 inc a free phone but no data. Data at the time was a £7.50 bolt on.

However, if you went to 3, T-mobile, Orange or Vodafone even the tariffs were cheaper than O2.

I'm leaving aside the argument that contracts with built in minutes here are increasingly unpopular anyway. More than half the population use PAYG SIMs. We've 7 mobile phones here in our house on PAYG SIMs between four people. It works out cheaper as you can get 'family pack' style deals on SIM only PAYG so we have free calls and free texts between each of us.

[samab]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

ok, and I'm taking your assertion as true without looking up the details, but that's irrelevant to your point, that it was in the consumers interest to adopt the US system. It isn't. The carriers even said that it may lead to extra charges for incoming calls in the piece quoted earlier.

Most people NEVER use the allowance they have got already. Why would they want twice the amount AND a bill for incoming calls?

My kids both have phones so we can track them down. They'd be horrified if they had to pay for incoming calls out of their allowance.

[snip]

Londor already pointed out where you went wrong with the existing tariff but prior to that the original iPhone tariff here gave you what other people were getting for £20 inc a free phone but no data. Data at the time was a £7.50 bolt on.

However, if you went to 3, T-mobile, Orange or Vodafone even the tariffs were cheaper than O2.

I'm leaving aside the argument that contracts with built in minutes here are increasingly unpopular anyway. More than half the population use PAYG SIMs. We've 7 mobile phones here in our house on PAYG SIMs between four people. It works out cheaper as you can get 'family pack' style deals on SIM only PAYG so we have free calls and free texts between each of us.

For-profit arriers telling the public that the new price control is going to hurt consumers --- and you believe them?

People is going to change the phone habits --- there is a reason why europeans talk about 200 minutes on a mobile phone and americans talk 800 minutes on a phone. You may say it's going to be worse off --- because people are going to be constantly talk on their phones on buses, in theatres, in restaurants...

Look at family plans in the US --- it's even available with the iphone plans.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by samab

For-profit arriers telling the public that the new price control is going to hurt consumers --- and you believe them?

Yes because it's BLEEDING OBVIOUS that extra charges are going to hurt consumers who use their phones for mainly incoming use, which I'd suggest is the majority of people.

Originally Posted by samab

People is going to change the phone habits --- there is a reason why europeans talk about 200 minutes on a mobile phone and americans talk 800 minutes on a phone. You may say it's going to be worse off --- because people are going to be constantly talk on their phones on buses, in theatres, in restaurants...

And we use SMS a lot more. It's now so ingrained a cultural difference that I don't see it changing and as text messaging prices are due to tumble, that won't change.

Originally Posted by samab

Look at family plans in the US --- it's even available with the iphone plans.

Not available here on O2 from what I can tell although they now have opened up business tariffs so maybe there's the potential to haggle at the counter.

[samab]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Yes because it's BLEEDING OBVIOUS that extra charges are going to hurt consumers who use their phones for mainly incoming use, which I'd suggest is the majority of people.

And we use SMS a lot more. It's now so ingrained a cultural difference that I don't see it changing and as text messaging prices are due to tumble, that won't change.

Not available here on O2 from what I can tell although they now have opened up business tariffs so maybe there's the potential to haggle at the counter.

For a country with over 100% mobile penetration rate --- and nobody willing to start a phone call --- then there is something wrong with the picture.

Tens of thousands of years of human evolution gave us vocal communication skills --- it's ingrained into our DNA. Talking is more natural.

[Londor]

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Not available here on O2 from what I can tell although they now have opened up business tariffs so maybe there's the potential to haggle at the counter.

You do not have a family plan per se but you can have with a £15 contract a free phone & unlimited O2 to O2 calls, for £25 a free phone, 200 minutes & 400 text messages and unlimited O2 to O2 calls or more expensive plans with a better selection of free phones, more anytime any network allowances plus the same unlimited O2 to O2 calls. If you have Pay-As-You-Go you can have for £5 a month 1000 minutes or texts (you mix them as you want) to 10 selected O2 numbers.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by Londor

You do not have a family plan per se but you can have with a £15 contract a free phone & unlimited O2 to O2 calls, for £25 a free phone, 200 minutes & 400 text messages and unlimited O2 to O2 calls or more expensive plans with a better selection of free phones, more anytime any network allowances plus the same unlimited O2 to O2 calls. If you have Pay-As-You-Go you can have for £5 a month 1000 minutes or texts (you mix them as you want) to 10 selected O2 numbers.

I'll have to have another look although last time I looked at this about a year ago, T-mobile were cheapest by far if you haggled with the store manager. Apple with the iPhone ruled out any deals or haggling, much to the dismay of O2/Carphone Warehouse store staff I spoke to who were losing sales because of the rigid tariff structure.

[winterspan]

Originally Posted by samab

It also meant that they all fell into the same WCDMA nightmare for most of the decade.

It also meant that cool new technologies such as wimax don't even have a chance to see the market --- because wcdma would have gotten all the 3G extension spectrum space (which is the same spectrum space that wimax runs on). There is a reason why even Europe is moving towards all technology neutral spectrum licensing from now on.
The US cell phone service not competitive? Just look at the insane high prices of the first gen iphone plans in UK, France and Germany.

First of all, according to the reports I read and first-person, real-world experience, WiMax doesn't perform anywhere near it's been touted to. Now of course, there are hundreds of variables here, but I'm just speaking in a general manner. Also, besides the Sprint/Clearwire initiative which I certainly believe is going to crash and burn, every other carrier in the USA is standardizing on LTE. And having a country standardize on a particular cell phone technology (for one generation of tech at least) doesn't mean they can't explicitly reserve spectrum for other uses.

As far as competitiveness, it's incredibly shortsighted to just look at the iPhone plans. acknowledging it is hard to really compare value in two different countries, considering currency conversions, costs of goods and services, total market, etc, overall it appears those in the UK/Europe get some good deals. With almost any major carrier, they will subsidize the ENTIRE COST of an expensive $600-800 smartphone, whereas with Verizon/AT*T you are lucky to ever get anything over $200 in subsidy. On face value, minutes seem cheaper in the USA until you factor in that Europeans don't pay for incoming calls. The one advantage the US has is that data plans are usually sold as "unlimited" instead of tiered megabyte allowances, although the same applies in wired telecommunications, so maybe it's a cultural thing or something. American's love the all-you-can-eat concept . When you factor in the huge subsidy on devices, I would bet that an average subscriber with an average allowance of minutes/data that want's a a high-end can get a better deal overseas than in N America, although it would be the reverse for heavy data users.

Originally Posted by aegisdesign

No, it's a business support line where my customers can ring me outside of office hours (generally), wherever I am. Usually I'm home though so I use SIP for outgoing, or email when their issue is solved.

Also having run a business, isn't it great what VOIP can do!!!

[samab]

WCDMA was a complete Titanic of a disaster compared to WiMax.

I think it's the other way around --- it is a mistake to dismiss the iphone as a "special" case.

If a country has a competitive telecom industry --- then the rates are going to be low. You have 2 countries like France and Canada --- each with only 3 national carriers and both have laws against foreign ownership of their telecom industry --- of course you are going to see insane iphone plans. Deutsche Telekom is still 1/3 owned by the German government.

In the US, the telecom market is so competitive that AT&T Wireless didn't even charge the normal PDA data plan for the first gen iphone --- so they charged a $20 for data which is their normal rate for a WAP plan. Only now with the 3G iphone that AT&T raises the price to the normal PDA rate.

The iphone isn't a special case at all --- the worldwide iphone prices reflect each country's telecom industry's competitiveness.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by samab

The iphone isn't a special case at all --- the worldwide iphone prices reflect each country's telecom industry's competitiveness.

It is in some regards since it is, as far as I'm aware, the first phone to ever have mandatory data plans included in the monthly tariff. AT&T later allowed you to drop the data plan and O2 are apparently going to make it optional with their PAYG option.

Here in the UK with O2 the cost of the handset was also insane - ie. not FREE with the tariffs at launch. Again, they're correcting that with iPhone 3G so that it more closely follows what we'd expect a phone to cost.

So, iPhone 3G might reflect each country's telecom environment but that wasn't true with the old one.

[samab]

The blackberries and the sidekicks have mandatory data elements for a long time.

[aegisdesign]

Originally Posted by samab

The blackberries and the sidekicks have mandatory data elements for a long time.

I'd forgotten about the sidekick. It didn't make it over to Europe.

Blackberries are available here without data and AFAIK always have been. They aren't very popular though. Every Blackberry owner I know here has another phone, usually an SE or Nokia.

edit: Sorry, apparently wrong about the Sidekick. I've never seen one here in the UK.