Carmack: iPhone more powerful than Nintendo DS, PSP combined

[AppleInsider]

Speaking at QuakeCon 2008 in Dallas this week, id Software co-founder Carmack praised Apple's iPhone as an emerging force in mobile gaming industry and revealed his firm to be working on two titles for the handset.

Unlike most mobile platforms where gaming is largely brand-driven due to smaller screens, storage constraints and limited marketing flexibility, the iPhone offers a rare opportunity for game publishers to deliver graphics rich titles supported by detailed textual descriptions on the App Store, he said during a press conference.

The gaming icon admitted that he's disappointed id has yet to ship a game for the iPhone, but said two tentative titles are now well in the works. One was described as a 'conventional mobile game,' while the second was said to be more ambitious in that it will test the limits of the iPhone's graphics capabilities.

While Carmack sees graphics memory as a potential limiting factor on the iPhone, he's stoked about the intuitiveness of the iPhone SDK. He also described the handset's hardware as equivalent to that of the Sega Dreamcast living room console, and almost on par with Sony's PlayStation 2 and Microsoft's original Xbox.

When it comes to portable gaming systems, the iPhone is 'more powerful than a Nintendo DS and PSP combined,' he added. Apple's revenue sharing deal that offers developers 70 percent of the sale price was also cited as a plus.

That said, Carmack doesn't believe the iPhone is the definitive answer to mobile gaming. While sales of the device will be significant and may lead to more people playing games on their phones than ever before, he doesn't foresee billions of the devices being sold in a bid for world domination.

The verdict is also out on whether Apple has a concrete grasp of gaming, the id co-founder said. The company's reception to criticism has also been counterintuitive, which has led to its relationship with id being something akin to a roller-coaster ride.

Apple essentially kisses his ass when they need him to show up for one of Steve Jobs' keynotes, but then throws him the cold shoulder the second he passes judgement, Carmack said.

That said, he acknowledge that there are indeed some folks over in Cupertino who "are trying" to right the course for Mac and iPhone gaming.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[Jimzip]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Speaking at QuakeCon 2008 in Dallas this week, id Software co-founder Carmack praised Apple's iPhone as an emerging force in mobile gaming industry and revealed his firm to be working on two titles for the handset.

When it comes to portable gaming systems, the iPhone is 'more powerful than a Nintendo DS and PSP combined,' he added.

Someone mentioned a week or so back that the iPhone was more powerful than the dreamcast... I think that's really impressive, interested to see what games ID is working on...

Jimzip

[aplnub]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

The verdict is also out on whether Apple has a concrete grasp of gaming, the id co-founder said. The company's reception to criticism has also been counterintuitive, which has led its relationship with id being something akin to a roller-coaster ride.

Apple essentially kisses his ass when they need him to show up for one of Steve Jobs' keynotes, but then throws him the cold shoulder the second he passes judgement, Carmack said.

That said, he acknowledge that there are indeed some folks over in Cupertino who "are trying" to right the course for Mac and iPhone gaming.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

Get this guy some Kool-Aid so he can see were he is wrong.

What is wrong with Apple?

[scottkitts]

It isn't a question as to whether or not the iPhone is more powerful than a PSP or a DS. That's irrelevant (look at how the Wii is wiping the floor with the XBox360 and PS3 if you don't believe me.) Other considerations are far more important. First, real games require real buttons. Tilt and swipe may be a cute distraction, but it doesn't get it done for anything but solitaire or soduku. Ask any real gamer. But, more importantly, just which is a parent going to buy for their 8 to 13 year old (check your demographics, that's where the millions of units/quarter sales go. Not to 25 year old techies), a $129 DS (which, in case you've missed it, already has WiFi, microphone, and a touch screen), a $199 PSP (with WiFi, music, and movies), or a $2400 iPhone (counting the contract commitment, and, yes, those are REAL DOLLARS you MUST PAY to use the iPhone)?

[brianus]

Originally Posted by scottkitts

But, more importantly, just which is a parent going to buy for their 8 to 13 year old (check your demographics, that's where the millions of units/quarter sales go. Not to 25 year old techies), a $129 DS (which, in case you've missed it, already has WiFi, microphone, and a touch screen), a $199 PSP (with WiFi, music, and movies), or a $2400 iPhone (counting the contract commitment, and, yes, those are REAL DOLLARS you MUST PAY to use the iPhone)?

What about the iPod touch?

[Rot'nApple]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Apple essentially kisses his ass when they need him to show up for one of Steve Jobs' keynotes, but then throws him the cold shoulder the second he passes judgement, Carmack said.

Simple... the next time Apple needs him to show up for one of Steve's keynotes, don't let Apple kiss your ass, instead, have them throw a contract in your face so you won't get the cold shoulder!

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by scottkitts

It isn't a question as to whether or not the iPhone is more powerful than a PSP or a DS. That's irrelevant (look at how the Wii is wiping the floor with the XBox360 and PS3 if you don't believe me.) Other considerations are far more important. First, real games require real buttons. Tilt and swipe may be a cute distraction, but it doesn't get it done for anything but solitaire or soduku. Ask any real gamer. But, more importantly, just which is a parent going to buy for their 8 to 13 year old (check your demographics, that's where the millions of units/quarter sales go. Not to 25 year old techies), a $129 DS (which, in case you've missed it, already has WiFi, microphone, and a touch screen), a $199 PSP (with WiFi, music, and movies), or a $2400 iPhone (counting the contract commitment, and, yes, those are REAL DOLLARS you MUST PAY to use the iPhone)?

1) Why would you weaken your valid argument by using a hyperbolic example of the iPhone and not he iPod Touch which has no contract and only costs $299.

2) While not everyone looks at other features or TOC, there are plenty that will take the lower prices games, the built-in iPod—which is huge financial saving over buying their kid an iPod Nano/Classic AND a DS/PSP—and other options. The combining of two devices with similar HW into one is not only an easy way to save money but also a very common trend.

3) Most kids get what they want. Last year we saw that the iPhone at $600 and then $400 was more popular with HS kids than most people would have thought.

4) While there are very few accessories for the iPod Touch/iPhone there is no reason that a company like Id that wants to get serious about OS X iPhone gaming can't work with a company to have an accessory that goes under and around the Apple device to allow for a full D-Pad. It could easily include an additional battery juice for extended play and dual headphones jacks, etc.

I don't care for this mock up as it's too clunk,but you get the idea of how easy it would be to create.

[Gucky]

Originally Posted by scottkitts

a $199 PSP

Your info regarding the PSP's price is quite outdated: it has been $170 for quite some time. Unlike the DS and iPhone/iPod Touch it also supports removable memory media. The lack of support for removable memory media is one of my biggest gripes with my iPod Touch. The other is the lack of a builtin microphone and no Skype or IM.

[Techslacker]

Lets wait and see where the demand really is before trying to tell Apple how to turn a phone into a game machine....same for the Touch. Apple is very strategic and it takes time to get things in place for those strategies. Right now I think they're set in what they want to do and history shows they don't cater to the hardcore people.

I do think it's going to be more about the casual games. I also don't see Apple adding joysticks and buttons to clutter up the interface. They have a target market on what the device is about and people like Carmack and others likely aren't going to change that. We'll see though...they claim to be a consumer company now so perhaps they'll so something like maybe a seperate device down the road...doubtful but possible.

BTW, for the person commenting on the Wii vs other consoles. The number of consoles sold is not the whole story although most of the media would have you believe that. Look at software sales for them as well since the companies do get a cut of that and you should find that the Xbox 360 outsells the Wii in game software. The Wii's certainly sell well but it's mostly by people who just want a fun console with the games that are included. So in other words not many hard core gamers are buying the Wii's(hardcore gamers tend to buy lots of games) and the game developers don't see a good return on their investment on average.

[Virgil-TB2]

Personally, I am getting tired of Carmack's posturing in the media. He is always ripping on Apple's faults but he is famous for being a bit of a jerk himself.

After some of the things he has said about Apple (I know we all say them but a person of his public stature should be more careful), I couldn't care less what Carmack thinks about this stuff.

He has shown himself to be a giant tool several times now. Why should we care about the opinions of someone who is only famous for creating a FPS back in the 80's and then repeating himself 50 times afterwards?

Wolfenstein 3D is the only good one anyway. Doom and all that other junk is just "repeat but with gorier graphics" really.

[EyeNsteinNo]

I no programer but why doesn't some do a "MS consumed by a black hole." game. I even would become a gamer to see those stars gone.

E=MC2 or M=E/C2 or MS zero mass.

[drexciya]

this is a lie!

wii sells more software than 360

almost double

do your homework before posting fanboy posts

http://www.vgchartz.com/weekly.php

this is for the last week

but look in the site for past weeks too

to me apple is super stupid

they should release an iPlay or smth

and they will have everything combined in 1 machine

give me a dual analog control pad for iphone

and it can have

dual analog of xbox/ps3 motion controls of wii touchscreen and mic of ds and the widescreen of the psp plus a phone a gps and ipod....


everything combined !!!!!!!!

it could come as an extra peripheral like the icontrolpad

but they will not make it

sometimes i wish i was in control of that things

anyway....

[bigmc6000]

Originally Posted by Gucky

Your info regarding the PSP's price is quite outdated: it has been $170 for quite some time. Unlike the DS and iPhone/iPod Touch it also supports removable memory media. The lack of support for removable memory media is one of my biggest gripes with my iPod Touch. The other is the lack of a builtin microphone and no Skype or IM.

Does AIM not run on your Touch? I'm pretty certain it does. And really - removeable media is just a way to convince you to spend more. Just put enough storage internally (which the touch has) and there you go - you don't even need to worry about buying extra cards or any of that. I just still don't get the removable media argument - most all of the things that offer removeable media cards are crippled without one so why not just put it in. You really think you're going to upgrade to a 16GB micro card? I mean, I suppose you might but the vast majority of people just buy a new product rather than continuing to crutch along their old product (look at new computer sales, specifically PCs).

Also, the games on the Touch (and iPhone for that matter) are all stored directly on the device. You don't need to carry around disks or cartridges or any of that - just your iPod. It's also quite unfair to compare the cost of a touch to that of a PSP or DS as the Touch does so much more than either of those machines. It's more like the costs of a DS + an iPod Nano. Not so cheap anymore and you're stuck toting around two things rather than 1 whose games are cheaper and easier to buy and don't require you to carry around dozens of disks to have the option of playing dozens of games.

Combined with the ever expanding iTunes database of music, tv shows, movies and pod casts (and the fully featured web browser that neither PSP or the DS even come close to) and the Touch is the best all in one entertainment device.

1 last thing - the "real gamers" thing that people talk about - that's just hilarious. It's a PORTABLE. "Real" gamers get the 17" Alienware laptop with SLI cards - they don't go around playing PSP's.

[drexciya]

Real gamers use alienware sli??

pc gaming?

are u kidding me??

all the companies that are in video games since the 70s or 80s are almost 100% devoted to consoles

computer gaming is dead

and we are not missing it

look the sales of pc gaming

is maybe the 2-3% of consoles software sales

these are the REAL gamers?

lol

i dont think so

we are talking about sales

and the pc is a dead market

an iphone game can sale way better than a pc game

but can't compare to a ds one

also the sli users are mostly pirates

all the technology freaks are pirates

they know they can have their software for free

and companies dont even care about them

is logic

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by bigmc6000

And really - removeable media is just a way to convince you to spend more.

How? Most companies that make portable devices aren't players in the flash media cards.

Just put enough storage internally (which the touch has) and there you go - you don't even need to worry about buying extra cards or any of that. I just still don't get the removable media argument - most all of the things that offer removeable media cards are crippled without one so why not just put it in. You really think you're going to upgrade to a 16GB micro card? I mean, I suppose you might but the vast majority of people just buy a new product rather than continuing to crutch along their old product (look at new computer sales, specifically PCs).

I think this is an overly consumeristic argument. New stuff is nice, but it's generally pretty wasteful. The thing that changes more than anything else is the cost and capacity of the memory. A three year old device is usually plenty good for a task, a bigger card than what was available or affordable can breathe new life into that device.

[Guartho]

Originally Posted by drexciya

Real gamers use alienware sli??

pc gaming?

are u kidding me??

all the companies that are in video games since the 70s or 80s are almost 100% devoted to consoles

computer gaming is dead

and we are not missing it

look the sales of pc gaming

is maybe the 2-3% of consoles software sales

these are the REAL gamers?

lol

Your posts aren't quite Haikus, but there's some similar kind of underlaying rigid syllable structure isn't there?

[Lukaz]

Originally Posted by scottkitts

It isn't a question as to whether or not the iPhone is more powerful than a PSP or a DS. That's irrelevant (look at how the Wii is wiping the floor with the XBox360 and PS3 if you don't believe me.) Other considerations are far more important. First, real games require real buttons. Tilt and swipe may be a cute distraction, but it doesn't get it done for anything but solitaire or soduku. Ask any real gamer. But, more importantly, just which is a parent going to buy for their 8 to 13 year old (check your demographics, that's where the millions of units/quarter sales go. Not to 25 year old techies), a $129 DS (which, in case you've missed it, already has WiFi, microphone, and a touch screen), a $199 PSP (with WiFi, music, and movies), or a $2400 iPhone (counting the contract commitment, and, yes, those are REAL DOLLARS you MUST PAY to use the iPhone)?

You say that consoles need buttons and that the accelerometer is a distraction, but when you said power is irrelevant and mentioned the Wii, you forgot to mention that the Wii itself surpassed PS3/Xbox cause of the controller. Yeah, the accelerometer is a useless cute distraction...
The accelerometer can actually substitute the analog/Dpad. The touchscreen can take care of the rest.
Oh, and power do matters. Wii only has a bigger marketshare because it is designed for casual gaming, which atracted many people who not even had a PS2/Xbox/GameCube/Whatever.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Lukaz

The accelerometer can actually substitute the analog/Dpad. The touchscreen can take care of the rest.

I have Mac•Man for my jailbroken iPhone. It uses the accelerometer to tell the Mac-man where to go. It and Sudoku are pretty much the only games I play, so I'm not exactly a serious gamer.

• http://www.appsafari.com/games/5418/macman/

[Lukaz]

Originally Posted by Guartho

Real gamers use alienware sli??

pc gaming?

are u kidding me??

all the companies that are in video games since the 70s or 80s are almost 100% devoted to consoles

computer gaming is dead

and we are not missing it

look the sales of pc gaming

is maybe the 2-3% of consoles software sales

these are the REAL gamers?

lol

i dont think so

we are talking about sales

and the pc is a dead market

an iphone game can sale way better than a pc game

but can't compare to a ds one

also the sli users are mostly pirates

all the technology freaks are pirates

they know they can have their software for free

and companies dont even care about them

is logic

Dude, PLEASE. While PC gaming is on the fall, it is WAY better than console gaming. Strategy games on a console? How? Warcraft, Starcraft, WoW (with more than nine million users). Total War? Anyone? ANYONE?

Even shooters are better in PCs. I can't imagine myself not using using a mouse in FPS or TPS.

Anyway, that's why I want Apple to release something that will make my PC games compatible with OS X. That way I can definatly abanbon PCs once and for all.

Or, at least release something easy for developers create a Mac port.

Back on topic, I can't wait to transform my Touch in a Gaming powerhouse! Well, that is: when Games actually arrive in iTunes Store Brazil...

[bigmc6000]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

How? Most companies that make portable devices aren't players in the flash media cards.



I think this is an overly consumeristic argument. New stuff is nice, but it's generally pretty wasteful. The thing that changes more than anything else is the cost and capacity of the memory. A three year old device is usually plenty good for a task, a bigger card than what was available or affordable can breathe new life into that device.

I didn't say it wasn't more cost efficient - I'm just saying what usually happens.

[Charko]

Yes, Carmack seems to miss out on the significance of the touch; but he's not the only one.
While most of the media-hype is about the iPhone, and that not without reason, I've always thought that the touch is going to become a huge hit, quietly but surely.
If the rumours are right and there's a new 64 GB touch with GPS being groomed, then I'm going to get one straight away.

[Guartho]

Originally Posted by Lukaz

Dude, PLEASE. While PC gaming is on the fall, it is WAY better than console gaming.

Hey Lukaz, would you mind editing this so that I don't look like a gamer dood who dropped out of school in 6th grade?

[guinness]

That's not saying much - the PSP and DS came out over 3 years ago, and the primary aspect of the Touch/iPhone is media and phone aspects - the fact that it can do games is a nice bonus.

Besides, I don't see Nintendo, Microsoft, or Sony running over to get an iPhone SDK. They have their own IP, and Nintendo is king of selling great 1st party SW, and that's what sells the DS. Sony has MGS, GT, Wipeout, MLB, Ratchet and Clank, MS has Halo and GoW. Both Sony and MS have FF now too.

I could see a lot of 3rd party stuff, like EA and Sega, Ubisoft, Eidos, and EA knows they can print money with Madden.

[IHateRegistering]

Originally Posted by scottkitts

It isn't a question as to whether or not the iPhone is more powerful than a PSP or a DS. That's irrelevant (look at how the Wii is wiping the floor with the XBox360 and PS3 if you don't believe me.) Other considerations are far more important. First, real games require real buttons. Tilt and swipe may be a cute distraction, but it doesn't get it done for anything but solitaire or soduku. Ask any real gamer. But, more importantly, just which is a parent going to buy for their 8 to 13 year old (check your demographics, that's where the millions of units/quarter sales go. Not to 25 year old techies), a $129 DS (which, in case you've missed it, already has WiFi, microphone, and a touch screen), a $199 PSP (with WiFi, music, and movies), or a $2400 iPhone (counting the contract commitment, and, yes, those are REAL DOLLARS you MUST PAY to use the iPhone)?

I pay $0/mo to use my iPhone. Granted, I'm on deployment so turned my cell service off.

But, before that, I was on the month-to-month plan. No contract.

[IHateRegistering]

Originally Posted by Charko

Yes, Carmack seems to miss out on the significance of the touch; but he's not the only one.
While most of the media-hype is about the iPhone, and that not without reason, I've always thought that the touch is going to become a huge hit, quietly but surely.
If the rumours are right and there's a new 64 GB touch with GPS being groomed, then I'm going to get one straight away.

Personally, I think the Touch is lame. By not getting the phone, you loose the always-on data connection. You miss all the tie-ins with your address book and internet (phone) links.

Plus, who wants to carry a phone and a iPod around? I wish the camera was decent so I could ditch my Cannon too.

Spend the extra $50 or whatever and get the iPhone.

[walkerdarin2003]

Originally Posted by scottkitts

It isn't a question as to whether or not the iPhone is more powerful than a PSP or a DS. That's irrelevant (look at how the Wii is wiping the floor with the XBox360 and PS3 if you don't believe me.) Other considerations are far more important. First, real games require real buttons. Tilt and swipe may be a cute distraction, but it doesn't get it done for anything but solitaire or soduku. Ask any real gamer. But, more importantly, just which is a parent going to buy for their 8 to 13 year old (check your demographics, that's where the millions of units/quarter sales go. Not to 25 year old techies), a $129 DS (which, in case you've missed it, already has WiFi, microphone, and a touch screen), a $199 PSP (with WiFi, music, and movies), or a $2400 iPhone (counting the contract commitment, and, yes, those are REAL DOLLARS you MUST PAY to use the iPhone)?

You are comparing apples to oranges, no pun intended. Just buy the kid a damn ipod touch. Bang, no more contract fees. I do agree there is a lack of button or input, but the mobile gaming market is huge. Who doesn't have a cell phone now days. I believe the cell phone market smokes any gaming market.

[walkerdarin2003]

Originally Posted by guinness

That's not saying much - the PSP and DS came out over 3 years ago, and the primary aspect of the Touch/iPhone is media and phone aspects - the fact that it can do games is a nice bonus.

Besides, I don't see Nintendo, Microsoft, or Sony running over to get an iPhone SDK. They have their own IP, and Nintendo is king of selling great 1st party SW, and that's what sells the DS. Sony has MGS, GT, Wipeout, MLB, Ratchet and Clank, MS has Halo and GoW. Both Sony and MS have FF now too.

I could see a lot of 3rd party stuff, like EA and Sega, Ubisoft, Eidos, and EA knows they can print money with Madden.

Your missing the point entirely. Those big title games cost shit loads of money to create and launch, not to mention cost the gamer a pretty penny as well. The average soccer mom with a cell phone can buy Enigmo from her damn phone for 10 bucks. Not only is there a larger market here but it is more affordable to create titles and purchase them. This is a win win. Most of the damn games bought now days are still from the parents pocket books. Don't even try to say the disposable income of the teenager working at Dominos keeps these afloat.

[JeffDM]

DS / PSP / iPhone & iTouch are almost orthogonal to each other. They each have their own strengths and reason for being. Which one a person gets depends on what they want. I didn't notice any networked games for iPhone, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to do so compared to the handheld game systems. I think some stuff really does need tactile buttons. A lot of input to simulate buttons require covering part of the screen to do so as well.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

DS / PSP / iPhone & iTouch are almost orthogonal to each other. They each have their own strengths and reason for being. Which one a person gets depends on what they want. I didn't notice any networked games for iPhone, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to do so compared to the handheld game systems. I think some stuff really does need tactile buttons. A lot of input to simulate buttons require covering part of the screen to do so as well.

Networked games would be nice. It would be nice if games could use the WiFi or Bluetooth to make some really cool network interaction like with the DS and PSP, but we can't even send vCards via bluetooth yet (though you can send them via email with an App Store app).

Another aspect of networked game play that would be great and set the iPhone apart from other smartphones and portal game device would be WANed games. Similar to the way Scrabulous/Scrabble works on FaceBook—and all the other games such games for the past decade plus—where a player takes a turn and then the next player takes a turn after the web app shows the move made my the last player. With Adobe Flash this can be done in real time, but most of these games only need an update after a player has moved. Since Apple's 3rd-party app push services will be implemented I *REALLY* hope the developers are forward thinking enough to add WAN game play features. Plus, this system would allow you have multiple games going at once.

For example, imagine playing Risk on your iPhone with 4 of your friends over the course of a few days. Or, playing Battleship with a friend across the country. Or, how about the newly released Scrabble for the iTunes App Store -AND- for FaceBook could work together so people playing on the Flash version could play against people on their iPhone. After all, they are both created for Hasbro by Electronic Arts. Or Chess or Checkers or anyone of these fun games that don't require more than a few bytes to update the the board and aren't time sensitive.

Note: One hiccup is that Apple's notification service may not be robust enough to interact with the app directly to have user moves sent. In this case, the game developer will require their own servers that the app polls when you access the game again after getting the push notification saying that it's your turn.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by aplnub

Get this guy some Kool-Aid so he can see were he is wrong.

What is wrong with Apple?

He is right about this.

I remember, over the years, Apple coming out with numerous initiatives for gaming, only to let them languish. Remember Gamesprockets? That was a big push from Apple, and developers had high hopes. But then Apple did nothing, until they discounted it. Nothing even remotely similar came out for OS X.

Also, I'm sure we can remember the push for gaming at the Macworld's for several years. That looked good, and the developers I spoke to were enthused. They also sold a lot of product there. Then Apple suddenly discontinued the gaming section of the shows.

Apple hasn't ever included a truly high end gaming card in their line-up. Why not?

There's a lot more.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by scottkitts

It isn't a question as to whether or not the iPhone is more powerful than a PSP or a DS. That's irrelevant (look at how the Wii is wiping the floor with the XBox360 and PS3 if you don't believe me.) Other considerations are far more important. First, real games require real buttons. Tilt and swipe may be a cute distraction, but it doesn't get it done for anything but solitaire or soduku. Ask any real gamer. But, more importantly, just which is a parent going to buy for their 8 to 13 year old (check your demographics, that's where the millions of units/quarter sales go. Not to 25 year old techies), a $129 DS (which, in case you've missed it, already has WiFi, microphone, and a touch screen), a $199 PSP (with WiFi, music, and movies), or a $2400 iPhone (counting the contract commitment, and, yes, those are REAL DOLLARS you MUST PAY to use the iPhone)?

Since most parents now buy their kiddies cells with plans that are around what you are talking about, and the iPhone costs about what the gaming machines cost once you subtract the phone and other capabilities the gaming machines don't have, I don't see the problems.

Besides, I don't know where you get your numbers from, but my daughter, and her friends, all of whom are between 16 and 20 have DS's, and many have PSP's as well, as well as Wii's, and either 360's and PS3's.

I don't see the iPhone as being such an expensive alternative, because you are purposefully ignoring the reality here.

Also, games, so far at least, for the iPhone are far less expensive than the ones for any of the other platforms, mobile, or otherwise. And that can mean a lot of money over the course of a year.

In addition, your obsession with buttons also ignores the reality that the major game developers who have already done games for the iPhone, don't find such a limitation. we might also in the future, see some sort of plug-in attachment that could offer those buttons, if people really think they are needed.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by melgross

Also, I'm sure we can remember the push for gaming at the Macworld's for several years. That looked good, and the developers I spoke to were enthused.

The iPhone SDK keynote this year mostly focused on 3rd-party games. I'm not a "gamer" by any stretch of the word but even I took that with a grain of salt. The pessimist in me was saying this is what Apple want to show what is capable on the iPhone in term of showy graphic, but not what they will support in the long term.

Will Apple take OS X iPhone gamin seriously and then use the new found popularity of Macs to make Mac gaming something users and developers alike will be interested in?

[LonerATO]

Originally Posted by melgross

He is right about this.

I remember, over the years, Apple coming out with numerous intiatives for gaming, only to let them languish. Remember Gamesprockets? That was a big push from Apple, and developers had high hopes. But then Apple did npthing, until the discounted it. Nothing even remotely similar came out for OS X.

Also, I'm sure we can remember the push for gaming at the Macworld's for several years. That looked good, and the developers I spoke to were enthused. They also sold a lot of product there. Then Apple suddenly discontinued the gaming section of the shows.

Apple hasn't ever included a truly high end gaming card in their line-up. Why not?

There's a lot more.

It seems like apple gaming died when MS bought Bungie, because I can still remember those kick a demos they had. Carmack isn't the only one mad about apple and gaming even Gabe Newell has said stuff before. I am tired of having to run windows just to play games on my mac pro so apple needs to step it up and bring these guys on board so they can pull people from windows machines.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by solipsism

The iPhone SDK keynote this year mostly focused on 3rd-party games. I'm not a "gamer" by any stretch of the word but even I took that with a grain of salt. The pessimist in me was saying this is what Apple want to show what is capable on the iPhone in term of showy graphic, but not what they will support in the long term.

Will Apple take OS X iPhone gamin seriously and then use the new found popularity of Macs to make Mac gaming something users and developers alike will be interested in?

Really, who knows?

But the one advantage to the iPhone/iTouch, as opposed to the Mac, is that it is a much simpler, and unified platform.

Apple doesn't have to contend with comparisons to PC gaming cards, or special-built machines such as the Alien, or Voodoo.

The platform stands by itself. Right now, as Carmack has said, the competition is behind in power, and possibly, in ergonomics as well. The iPhone also has a far more powerful OS, and development system.

Now, some may contend that a lot of the OS has nothing to do with gaming, and conveys no advantage, but I disagree. Major games on the iPhone could be more like computer games that mobile games, when the ability to use a keyboard for input is realized, as well as other higher end offerings.

The software has just come out, and people are expecting major game developments already!

If Apple sells as many phones as they expect, the numbers will begin to rival the other mobile platforms in a couple of years. It could take that long to see where this is really going, though I hope not.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by LonerATO

It seems like apple gaming died when MS bought Bungie, because I can still remember those kick a demos they had. Carmack isn't the only one mad about apple and gaming even Gabe Newell has said stuff before. I am tired of having to run windows just to play games on my mac pro so apple needs to step it up and bring these guys on board so they can pull people from windows machines.

I've known a lot of people over the years who bought PC's ONLY because of the gaming.

Apple could have had a larger marketshare if they encouraged games, rather than pretending to, or being defensive about it.

I don't see why they can;t offer a higher end graphics card for the iMac, for example. They did it before, even though it wasn't the best.

They could even have a model with an area where a card could be removed and added.

They could also do what MS has done, and buy some major gaming company. they certainly could afford it!

[walkerdarin2003]

Originally Posted by Guartho

Your posts aren't quite Haikus, but there's some similar kind of underlaying rigid syllable structure isn't there?

I would have to call console games noob gamers. They get frustrated with service packs and drivers so they poor there cash into a console hoping to make their lives easier. Plan and simple, you compare any console gamer to a pc gamer and the pc gamer wins hands down. Has anyone ever tried play a console game on pc servers? I have it was Quake 3 on dreamcast. There was no contest, and that was WITH using a mouse and keyboard on the dreamcast. If only Xbox 360 would actually use those usb ports to their full functionality.

[monkeyastronaut]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

I think this is an overly consumeristic argument. New stuff is nice, but it's generally pretty wasteful. The thing that changes more than anything else is the cost and capacity of the memory. A three year old device is usually plenty good for a task, a bigger card than what was available or affordable can breathe new life into that device.

We are talking about gamers here. You don't want to breathe new life into your mobile gaming devices. You don't want your three year old mobile gaming device so you can keep buying flash cards forever. As soon as there's a new DS, PSP, etc the gamer will rush out and buy it. So if we consider that these devices will only last as long as there's not a new game device in town, you would be better off having some kind of huge ass flash disk inside the gaming device already (like the iPod touch has!). This of course makes the hardware more expensive, but really, buying flash cards generally sucks for gamers. What you want is a built in roomy hard drive like the 360 or the PS3 have. In this aspect, the iPhone/iPod touch solves a problem for gamers so there's great gaming potential for Apple's latest and greatest.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by walkerdarin2003

I would have to call console games noob gamers. They get frustrated with service packs and drivers so they poor there cash into a console hoping to make their lives easier. Plan and simple, you compare any console gamer to a pc gamer and the pc gamer wins hands down. Has anyone ever tried play a console game on pc servers? I have it was Quake 3 on dreamcast. There was no contest, and that was WITH using a mouse and keyboard on the dreamcast. If only Xbox 360 would actually use those usb ports to their full functionality.

Nobody wins or loses here. It's not like that at all. Each has its advantages, and disadvantages.

Plenty of "noobs" play computer games only. One thing has nothing to do with the other, except apparently, from what I can see from your post, some PC gamers are feeling superior about themselves, undeservedly so.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by monkeyastronaut

We are talking about gamers here. You don't want to breathe new life into your mobile gaming devices. You don't want your three year old mobile gaming device so you can keep buying flash cards forever. As soon as there's a new DS, PSP, etc the gamer will rush out and buy it. So if we consider that these devices will only last as long as there's not a new game device in town, you would be better off having some kind of huge ass flash disk inside the gaming device already (like the iPod touch has!). This of course makes the hardware more expensive, but really, buying flash cards generally sucks for gamers. What you want is a built in roomy hard drive like the 360 or the PS3 have. In this aspect, the iPhone/iPod touch solves a problem for gamers so there's great gaming potential for Apple's latest and greatest.

The flash media simply adds to the cost of the game. Even if the media costs the manufacturer a few bucks, they are going to double, or triple that price at retail. That's one reason why the games for the DS cost what they do, and why games for the iPod can be so cheap, though we'll see what Carmack will be charging.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by bigmc6000

I didn't say it wasn't more cost efficient - I'm just saying what usually happens.

Maybe with the early adopter types.