Orange admits to capping 3G speeds in France

[AppleInsider]

Following an uproar on the part of disgruntled iPhone customers, French wireless carrier Orange will reportedly raise an unpublicized cap on 3G download speeds next month.

The exclusive iPhone service provider in France began feeling the heat of irate iPhone 3G customers after several of them began comparing their download speeds on an internet forum with those achieved by users in neighboring countries.

In particular, they found that iPhone users on Germany's T-Mobile network -- recently cited as the best performing 3G network by iPhone users -- were routinely able to achieve download speeds of 1800Kbps, while those on France's Orange network struggled to reach a mere 400Kbps.

Calls began pouring into Orange's technical support lines. In some of these cases, technicians voluntarily altered the APN (Access Point Name) and other parameters tied to subscribers' iPhones. The result was a dramatic increase in speed for most of those subscribers, with some reporting that their speeds suddenly surged in excess of 3Mbps.

Almost immediately, iPhone 3G users discarded the notion of flaws in the Apple handset's hardware and began suspecting Orange of intentionally capping 3G download speeds. Many were furious, arguing that artificial limitation was in direct violation of the service agreements shared between the carrier and its iPhone customers, which theoretically should have allowed HSDPA speeds approaching 7.2Mbps. A petition was also formed.

A video comparing an uncapped iPhone 3G to an capped iPhone 3G on the Orange network

When contacted by FranceInfo, an Orange representative reportedly confirmed that that the carrier has been deliberately limiting speeds for all 3G capable phones on its network to 384Kbps, saying the move was aimed at 'preserving the stability of the network.'

Following a meeting on Monday at its Paris headquarters, Orange said it will raise the download cap for iPhone users from 384Kbps to 1Mbps by September 15th.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[stukdog]

It's amazing how much cell companies get away with around the world. False advertising, price gouging, and breaking contracts.

How much longer until some serious change? I thought Apple was going to provoke it when they first released with AT&T, but now even Apple has fallen in line.

[macapptraining]

iPhone is still ahead of the times... Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep. It's sad. But this should get the cell companies in gear to improve their speeds, availability.

[bigmc6000]

I suppose their only saving grace is that they did it for all the phones and not just the iPhone. I wonder however - have they had many/any problems with dropped calls etc in France? Isn't it quite possible that the whole of 3G users have a better general overall experience with 3G because the lines aren't being maxed out?

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Following an uproar on the part of disgruntled iPhone customers, French wireless carrier Orange will reportedly raise an unpublicized cap on 3G download speeds next month.

The exclusive iPhone service provider in France began feeling the heat of irate iPhone 3G customers after several of them began

I would suggest that this is not unique to Orange.

I did comment on a previous discussion that my carrier has capped and is gradually increasing the level to ensure stability. Right now my test run is showing nearly 1500kbps.

I would also suggest that some due diligence on how wireless works would help to negate some of the comments that are being stated on the subject. Anybody who knows anything about the factors that can affect cell service will appreciate the issues that cell phone manufacturers, carriers and users come up against.

Dropped calls for example are a fact of life no matter where you are. Even on the space shuttle! And if you still need more proof, go down to your local VFW or American Legion hall and ask the vets about dropped calls.

Here is a great read on the subject: http://www.phonedog.com/cell-phone-r...rop-calls.aspx.

And one more point, cell phone manufacturers and carriers have to go through extensive testing under some of the most stringent standards in the world, e.g., as set by the US FCC. Sure when you manufacture millions of units at a time, some will fail at times. But then don't we all.

Perhaps we can save ourselves from looking stupid, just by doing some homework.

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by macapptraining

iPhone is still ahead of the times... Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep.

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by jfanning

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

Could you please elaborate and supply references?

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

I would suggest that this is not unique to Orange.

I did comment on a previous discussion that my carrier has capped and is gradually increasing the level to ensure stability. Right now my test run is showing nearly 1500kbps.

I thought you said that they had all of this calculated ahead of time.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

I would suggest that this is not unique to Orange.

O2 was capping some iPhone users to 128kbps last year. I'm not sure if it was on purpose or by accident but I agree that this probably more common than we realise.

I wonder if we'll see more carrier testing coming out now that iPhone 3G is in over 40 countries and has a better browser than other phones for doing a quick bandwidth test. "3G-gate scandal"?

Perhaps we can save ourselves from looking stupid, just doing some homework.

These forums would be empty if we all thought before we wrote.

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Could you please elaborate and supply references?

Well I would say all the phones that support 3G, and BT.

A couple of examples are at http://www.nokia.eu

[CREB]

Providers run caps for a reason...I am surprised people here have not figured it out. There are also agreements between service providers and mobile phone providers for various aspects that will affect speeds.

[bigmc6000]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Could you please elaborate and supply references?

I wouldn't bother with that conversation - we've already had the discussion that the iPhone has, by far, the fastest processor of any smart phone currently available (the Bold is going to have a 624 but that's assuming they don't scale it back) so you're right - don't worry

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by bigmc6000

I wouldn't bother with that conversation - we've already had the discussion that the iPhone has, by far, the fastest processor of any smart phone currently available (the Bold is going to have a 624 but that's assuming they don't scale it back) so you're right - don't worry

Fast processor, leads to faster battery drain...

But still, that wasn't the statement they made, they said "Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep.".

That has nothing to do with processing power of the device.

[nagromme]

Originally Posted by jfanning

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

Yes, it IS ahead of other devices, and pushing more data as a result. "Ahead" doesn't mean some arbitrary theoretical maximum throughput, it means ACTUAL data usage. What's "ahead" is the usability of the device: OS and software, especially the browser. Look at browser usage stats and you'll see that iPhone users make up the biggest chunk of mobile phone browsing, despite being only a small slice of phone ownership. People CAN transfer data with other phones, but they ARE transferring far more with iPhones.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/repo...pcustom=iPhone

I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that all that browsing, unprecedented for a phone, plus app downloads, relies heavily on the network. And that carriers may be having trouble keeping up with that sudden increase.

[BlackSummerNight]

The processor isn't running at at full speed, the iPhone processor is scaled back. Go check your phone.

Originally Posted by bigmc6000

I wouldn't bother with that conversation - we've already had the discussion that the iPhone has, by far, the fastest processor of any smart phone currently available (the Bold is going to have a 624 but that's assuming they don't scale it back) so you're right - don't worry

I hope you really do know that there are phones that have been available that have much faster 3G.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by jfanning

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

Originally Posted by jfanning

Well I would say all the phones that support 3G, and BT.

A couple of examples are at http://www.nokia.eu

The iPhone has Infineon radios capable fo 7.2Mbps downstream. This is pretty standard. The only commonly released 3G devices that have the 14.4Mbps downstream are in EC or USB sticks for computers. They require more power and are larger so they are no go for most phone needs, though Korea may be using some there. Not to mention that only a handful or carriers, at most, currently support more than 7.2Mbps.

So if they all have the same bandwidth capabilities what facts do you have to back up that "other phones [are] more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone"?

[BlackSummerNight]

Do you think that more people are using the iPhone's 3G network over all other 3G enabled phones, which many offer tethering support?

Originally Posted by nagromme

Yes, it IS ahead of other devices, and pushing more data as a result. "Ahead" doesn't mean some arbitrary theoretical maximum throughput, it means ACTUAL data usage. What's "ahead" is the usability of the device: OS and software, especially the browser. Look at browser usage stats and you'll see that iPhone users make up the biggest chunk of mobile phone browsing, despite being only a small slice of phone ownership. People CAN transfer data with other phones, but they ARE transferring far more with iPhones.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/repo...pcustom=iPhone

I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that all that browsing, unprecedented for a phone, plus app downloads, relies heavily on the network. And that carriers may be having trouble keeping up with that sudden increase.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

I thought you said that they had all of this calculated ahead of time.

Could you please elaborate? Calculated what ahead of time?

Thank you

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by solipsism

So if they all have the same bandwidth capabilities what facts do you have to back up that "other phones [are] more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone."

Because you can tether other phones via BT to a PC, or other device and download as much stuff as you like.

That is a fact, you do not have to install a 3rd party hack to do this

And don't say this is a violation of your AT&T agreement, I don't live in the US, so don't care about that.

[BlackSummerNight]

Regardless of which phone is the fastest... it's should be criminal for any carrier to do this. I wonder is ATT is doing the same thing.

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by nagromme

Yes, it IS ahead of other devices, and pushing more data as a result. "Ahead" doesn't mean some arbitrary theoretical maximum throughput, it means ACTUAL data usage. What's "ahead" is the usability of the device: OS and software, especially the browser. Look at browser usage stats and you'll see that iPhone users make up the biggest chunk of mobile phone browsing, despite being only a small slice of phone ownership. People CAN transfer data with other phones, but they ARE transferring far more with iPhones.

That only means they are using the device itself, if you tether the phone you can transfer data from other devices, which people have been doing for a number of years.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by jfanning

Well I would say all the phones that support 3G, and BT.

A couple of examples are at http://www.nokia.eu

What do you actually mean when you stated, "…there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone?"

Right now, this simply tells me that you can't get as much data down on the iPhone as you can on other cell phones.

And your reference is too ambiguous. Please be more specific. Thank you.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by jfanning

Because you can tether other phones via BT to a PC, or other device and download as much stuff as you like.

That is a fact, you do not have to install a 3rd party hack to do this

And don't say this is a violation of your AT&T agreement, I don't live in the US, so don't care about that.

What third party hack? And don't say NetShare. It doesn't fill the nomenclature.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Could you please elaborate? Calculated what ahead of time?

Thank you

Data usage ahead of the rollout.

[nagromme]

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

Do you think that more people are using the iPhone's 3G network over all other 3G enabled phones, which many offer tethering support?

No. I think they are using it in ADDITION to all other devices. Thus the increase.

It wouldn't surprise me if they are using it more than tethering: tethering is an expensive additional service that most people don't bother with, while iPhone browsing and app downloads are an everyday-consumer activity. But I have no data on that. It wouldn't surprise me either if tethering was the bigger usage.

On top of which, the iPhone has added a big surge of traffic.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

Do you think that more people are using the iPhone's 3G network over all other 3G enabled phones, which many offer tethering support?

I think the stats specifically record browser stats, not the ISP, so tethering would through things off. Either way, the point is that even on EDGE the iPhone's Safari, display size and UI made using the internet a viable option. Something that all manufacturers realised was now a requirement. well, at least the ones that want to stay competitive.

Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight

The processor isn't running at at full speed, the iPhone processor is scaled back. Go check your phone.

He's ahead of the curve in knowing that the BB Bold will have a 624MHz CPU and realises that it will probably be underclocked, so it's a safe bet that he know the iPhone is underclocked from 620Mhz to 412MHz.

I hope you really do know that there are phones that have been available that have much faster 3G.

I'm curious to know which phones are these. I think Korea is your best bet for finding a phone with a 3G radio faster than 7.2Mbps.

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

What do you actually mean when you stated, "…there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone?"

Right now, this simply tells me that you can't get as much data down on the iPhone as you can on other cell phones.

And your reference is too ambiguous. Please be more specific. Thank you.

I think if you read the other messages in this thread you would know the answer to this.

Smartphones (and other models as well) from other cell phone manufactures provide the ability to tether their phones to computers, tablets etc.

With these devices you can transfer a lot more data than you can with an iPhone.

For that link, look at the various E, and N series phones. Others will support it as well.

[cognominal]

I hope that Apple has contractual agreements with the providers to oblige them to give uncapped 3G. Otherwise, they should lose exclusivity which is is a scandal to begin with. Exclusivity deals permit to hide the true price of the iphone. I hope that Europe will twist the arm of Apple to drop these exclusive deals so one can choose the best bandwidth provider.

Probably Apple has taken the fall for 3G shortcomings because it has agreements to sign with new providers, so it has to play nice with them. Later, Apple will put the screw on them for them to to comply.

Anyway, I think that a smart phone available everywhere is also a good way to compare the providers so that eventually they can honestly compete. Unlike Internet so far, the mobile telephony is a world where users are sheep to be shaved.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

What do you actually mean when you stated, "…there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone?"

Right now, this simply tells me that you can't get as much data down on the iPhone as you can on other cell phones.

And your reference is too ambiguous. Please be more specific. Thank you.

I think I need to put him on my ignore list; he says one thing then says he meant something else. He commented about bandwidth is in one sense and now he's referring not to the transmission capacity, but to the overall data usage over a predetermined amount of time. Seriously nerve racking!

Originally Posted by Abster2core

What third party hack? And don't say NetShare. It doesn't fill the nomenclature.

By 3rd-party I think he is referring to a comment i amde last week about being able to tether your iPhone if it's jailbroken.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by jfanning

I think if you read the other messages in this thread you would know the answer to this.

Smartphones (and other models as well) from other cell phone manufactures provide the ability to tether their phones to computers, tablets etc.

With these devices you can transfer a lot more data than you can with an iPhone.

For that link, look at the various E, and N series phones. Others will support it as well.

So you are telling me that using NetShare on my iPhone for example as I am now, that I cannot get as much data on my Macbook Pro vs another phone.

By the way, do you pay anything for tethering where you live? I don't with my iPhone.

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

So you are telling me that using NetShare on my iPhone for example as I am now, that I cannot get as much data on my Macbook Pro vs another phone.

So if I was to go out and purchase an iPhone today, without hacking the phone, how do I tether it to another device?

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by solipsism

I think I need to put him on my ignore list; he says one thing then says he meant something else. He commented about bandwidth is in one sense and now he's referring not to the transmission capacity, but to the overall data usage over a predetermined amount of time. Seriously nerve racking!

Go ahead, I won't lose any sleep over it, and I don't really care how you understand my posts. You are too much of a fan boy to listen to anyone elses point of view, it is pretty obvious that you believe that everything that apple makes is perfect and there can be no other way.

Originally Posted by solipsism

By 3rd-party I think he is referring to a comment i amde last week about being able to tether your iPhone if it's jailbroken.

Well it isn't made by Apple, so that makes it a 3rd party hack doesn't it?!?

[bigmc6000]

Originally Posted by jfanning

So if I was to go out and purchase an iPhone today, without hacking the phone, how do I tether it to another device?

As solipism pointed out the iPhone 3G chip is 7.2 mbps while there might be a few 14.4's out there it's quite rare. And really, get over the tethering argument - if processor speed, rendering ability, and RAM had nothing to do with a computers capable download speed then virtually no one would get new computers as 10 year old boxes would be able to surf as fast as new ones.

When not tethering (which I know this might come as a shock to you but most people *dont* tether) and just surfing the web, downloading mail, watching YouTube the only ones that can handle more data are the 14.4's but, again, as solipism said those are very, very few and far between.

[bigmc6000]

Originally Posted by jfanning

Go ahead, I won't lose any sleep over it, and I don't really care how you understand my posts. You are too much of a fan boy to listen to anyone elses point of view, it is pretty obvious that you believe that everything that apple makes is perfect and there can be no other way.

if he's a fan boy and then you are the anti-fan boy. You do nothing but complain about the Apple products and even when faced with obvious truth (surfing on the iPhone is faster than any 7.2's, the iPhone has the fastest processor of any mobile out there right now) you quibble and go after another argument - lately it's this tethering argument.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

Data usage ahead of the rollout.

Hi Jeff.

Your question related to a comment of mine re download speed which as you know is entirely different from data usage.

What I did say about data usage, was that Rogers based their Data Usage amount/prices on information from AT&T re average monthly consumption per iPhone user in the US, which was 100MBs per month.

Based on that information, Rogers, unlike AT&T's unlimited program, issued a Data Plan charging $30 for 400Mbs and claimed that it was more the sufficient for the average user. At that point, my position as a researcher/scientist, was basically in agreement, since there was no empirical data to show or argue otherwise.

Now that I have gotten my first Rogers' bill, and based on the fact that there is no other evidence to support to support to the contrary, it appears that Rogers' first declarations were in fact correct.

Gladly, I may add, I am currently getting great speed via 3G, up to 1500kbs which is about 10-Xs faster than my EDGE service and with the understanding that it is capped while being tested to ensure stability as more users come on board. As my father used to say, "You don't destroy a house for the sake of one brick."

Perhaps we should all step back a bit and realize that wireless is like speaking into the wind. And there is a lot of it here.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by jfanning

So if I was to go out and purchase an iPhone today, without hacking the phone, how do I tether it to another device?

Normally, I would gladly send you a copy. But my better judgement, your lousy attitude and my penchant to be a prick at times dictates otherwise.

[nagromme]

Quibbling over paper technical numbers aside, my understanding of jfanning's point is that the iPhone is NOT causing carriers to experience an increase in usage of the Internet. He was replying to macapptraining's comment:

"iPhone is still ahead of the times... Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep [up]."

jfanning disagreed with that, and while I don't get the relevance of most of the points that followed, I am still convinced that he's wrong about his basic point. The iPhone IS causing heavier usage of mobile Internet, and I don't see how that can be debated.

You could still debate that the carriers are having no problems handling the increased 3G data traffic (the second part of macapptraining's assertion), but even that seems far-fetched to me. There seems to be ample evidence that the carriers are--in some regions--either HAVING trouble or CAUSING trouble with their Internet and 3G traffic (see also Wired's informal data rate map, and the story on recent BlackBerry 3G problems).

But even if the carriers ARE keeping up, there's no denying the basic fact that the iPhone has increased data usage over pre-iPhone levels.

Maybe jfanning just needs to clarify why he objects to macapptraining's statement. Maybe he thinks the iPhone is not "ahead" in any way that affects Internet usage?

But clearly, the ways the iPhone is "ahead" (usability, especially the browser) DO affect Internet usage. Talk of spec numbers can't change that reality.

So I still don't understand jfanning's original point about macapptraining's statement. (If we understood, we might realize we all agree with him!)

[solipsism]

.... and Nagromme brings balance back to the thread. Good show!

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Hi Jeff.

Your question related to a comment of mine re download speed which as you know is entirely different from data usage.

What I did say about data usage, was that Rogers based their Data Usage amount/prices on information from AT&T re average monthly consumption per iPhone user in the US, which was 100MBs per month.

The thing is, I would think that they could use that data to predict total network usage of all users.

Gladly, I may add, I am currently getting great speed via 3G, up to 1500kbs which is about 10-Xs faster than my EDGE service and with the understanding that it is capped while being tested to ensure stability as more users come on board. As my father used to say, "You don't destroy a house for the sake of one brick."

Perhaps we should all step back a bit and realize that wireless is like speaking into the wind. And there is a lot of it here.

It may be all over now, but the reasons for initial throttling seem fishy to me. Not only that, the internet companies have ways to manage data use at peak times so as to prevent network problems, it seems silly to me that the cellular companies don't have similar means without resorting to arbitrary continuous rate caps.

[quinney]

Originally Posted by cognominal

I hope that Apple has contractual agreements with the providers to oblige them to give uncapped 3G.

If the flaky behavior is truly related to inadequate capacity, that would lead to an
interesting dilemma. Cap the 3G speed and have more reliable but slower connections
vs. uncap the 3G speed and have faster but less reliable connections. Which alternative
is better for iPhone users?