Apple may benefit from slowing economy

[AppleInsider]

While global economic woes certainly aren't good news for retailers this holiday season, a report by Reuters suggests a silver lining for Apple: its key competitors may be hit even harder.

The looming recession doesn't look good for anyone in retail this holiday season, but Apple's past performance with the iPod, expanding new Mac growth, and its blockbuster sales of iPhones mean that the company has both feet firmly anchored to weather the storm. That isn't the case with many of the company's rivals.

A Hollywood Reporter article syndicated by Reuters points out that Blu-ray, having finally defeated HD-DVD to become the exclusive successor to the DVD, is now facing a lull in consumer excitement just when it needed a bright holiday season to seal the deal.

The article cited Lori MacPherson, GM of domestic home-entertainment at Disney, as saying, "The economy is the biggest challenge, because there are just so many pieces to the Blu-ray puzzle that consumers face. You need the high-definition television set, you need the player, you need the cables, you need the software."

Apple's alternative to Blu-ray discs, in the form of iPod-friendly iTunes video downloads, can't really compete with the quality Blu-ray offers, particularly for users with HDTV sets larger than 50" where the increased resolution becomes most apparent.

At the same time however, the economy is dragging down consumer spending on the priciest gear, making less expensive movie downloads that don't require a hardware investment more appealing.

Another fortunate bit of timing relates to the fact that the iPhone has already gained a strong critical mass to become the top selling phone in the US this summer. Apple also managed to roll out its software store and build up a strong series of development partners before the bottom fell out of the market.

Google's Android is just now hitting the market as consumers are less likely to spend their money. Its software store is also brand new and not nearly as active, thanks to the very small installed base of Android phones. Similar efforts to open software stores by Sprint, Microsoft, and others are also going to hit the ground during the global slump.

On the Mac front, Apple also managed to complete its Intel transition and establish the Mac platform as safe for switchers who may still need to run Windows apps, all with enough time to establish sales before the economic slowdown had the chance to pinch that window of opportunity closed.

All of these factors helped contribute to Apple's burgeoning coffers of cash, a critical strength required to continue investments in technology research and avoid employee layoffs during times of tightening credit. Many less fortunately positioned companies will either be driven out of business or have to find a stronger partner that can acquire them and fund their ongoing operational expenses.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[cameronj]

No link to the actual report?

[backtomac]

I don't think that an increase in downloaded movie sales will power Apple through this recession.

Don't forget that Apple have a tremendous number of retail stores in expensive locations. It'll be interesting to see if the high overhead of operating these stores negatively impacts Apple in the recession. I suspect it will. This is an expense that HP, Dell and other pc makers don't have. While I do think that Apple retail stores are a net benefit to Apple I think they will be a double edge sword for Apple. Big benefit during good times and a negative during downturns.

Throw in the expensive product lines and I suspect the next year will be as difficult for Apple as it will be for everyone else.

[Kasper]

Originally Posted by cameronj

No link to the actual report?

There's a LARGE link to the report in the article...

K

[supremedesigner]

Originally Posted by Kasper

There's a LARGE link to the report in the article...

K

http://tinyurl.com/ is your friend

[Pachomius]

I posted this comment yesterday in the discussion line about Parallels, but it's best for this discussion:

Everywhere I go lately (in Seattle), I see people with the new macbook/pro - not only that, but my aunt (who is about to get her job axed because of a buyout by a Canadian company) just asked me which Apple she should buy for her 16 year old daughter for Christmas. I have never tried to sell her on Apple - not once. Of course I advised the Aluminum MB entry model and it sounds like they're going to get it.

P

[Dogcow]

Remember the iPod was introduced in October 2001... not exactly the best climate of economic stability and consumer confidence. SJ said then and it still holds true now, Apple innovates it's way out of tough times.

[aaarrrgggh]

My wife was in the Apple store yesterday (Damn iBook G4 power supply-- you have to replace it within 3 years). I've trained her well; she always notes how long she is in the store, how crowded it is, and how many people are buying computers, iPods, and iPhones. Three Macbooks in 10 minutes over lunch.

Apple's profits won't be amazing this quarter, but they should be pretty solid.

Comparing AAPL, RIMM, and MOT's balance sheets, RIMM has had 20% growth in their cash position, MOT a 10% erosion, and AAPL a 75% growth. HP

Unfortunately, HTC looks like it is an even better position (although disclosure for Taiwanese companies is significantly different than US listings). Its biggest risk might be in the fact that 70-80% of its sales is Europe and Americas.

Right now, you see a number of entry-level consumers buy anything as a smartphone. Dissatisfied, many of them want to upgrade to an iPhone or Blackberry when they understand the difference.

[Virgil-TB2]

Originally Posted by backtomac

... Don't forget that Apple have a tremendous number of retail stores in expensive locations. It'll be interesting to see if the high overhead of operating these stores negatively impacts Apple in the recession. I suspect it will. ...

Apple also does sickeningly well at retail however, so your assumption about costs is not warranted.

Apparently (I don't have the figures handy), Apple sells more product per square foot of store than almost any other retailer, and this is a key marker of retail success or profit/loss. The overhead (even though it must be high relative to other lower service operations), is nothing compared to the wheelbarrows full of cash they are carrying out the back each night.

If any Apple stores close, it would have to be a very deep recession and the store would have to be a new one in a new location that didn't respond as well as might be hoped.

[elroth]

Originally Posted by Kasper

There's a LARGE link to the report in the article...

K

I think the confusion is that the AI article is only speculation by Prince McLean. The "reports" linked to are only about the Blu-ray situation and iPhone sales. The conclusions of what this means for Apple all come from McLean.

[RichL]

My local Apple store on Regents Street, London is always too packed to be worth going into. If this recession hits Apple, I might actually be able to buy something without queuing up for half an hour.

[robb01]

Originally Posted by Dogcow

Remember the iPod was introduced in October 2001... not exactly the best climate of economic stability and consumer confidence. SJ said then and it still holds true now, Apple innovates it's way out of tough times.

They are one company that others should look to in tough times, they seem to weather the economic climate very well

___________

[macFanDave]

VALUE

For all of the talk of style, versatility, great UI design, etc. Apple products are very well built and have proven an excellent investment for me.

I got an iBook just days before 9/11/01 and it is still going strong. Sure, it is not "teh snappy" but it sure performs solidly on many everyday tasks. I had to replace the battery because I accidentally let the original one overheat.

I have a dual 2 GHz G5 that I bought in October 2003 (The Night of the Panther) and it is still doing great. After about five years, the original video card went out, so I replaced it with a cheap Radeon (and lost some of the cool Quartz Extreme features ;( ). Other than that, it has worked like a champ and I've been able to do great video work with it.

And the iPhone can save you time, money and frustration. I was with some friends in a strange part of town and we needed to find a pet store (I'll tell you the whole story if you want to know it). Using the iPhone I found one nearby, we were able to call and see if they had what we needed, and got the directions from the iPhone (we would never have found it otherwise). My friend got what she needed at a super-cheap price and very quickly. No wild goose chases!

My problem is convincing my wife (and myself to some extent) that I need to upgrade to a new Mac. In the day of rapid technological obsolescence, wouldn't you like to have my problem?

[MacTel]

One thing people might miss is that watching movies on the laptop and a device like the iPhone is acceptable. My non-techie wife does it all the time. While the kids watch TV on the big screen she watches a movie and TV shows downloaded to the laptop.

I can see consumers forgoing the TV in the bedroom and instead using iPhones and the like to watch television and movies also. So I certainly believe TV sales will be slow this season. Downloads will only get become more popular and get better quality believing that I will not be buying a blu-ray device ever. I'll stick with Netflix and the iTunes store and any free content from the networks.

[cameronj]

Originally Posted by elroth

I think the confusion is that the AI article is only speculation by Prince McLean. The "reports" linked to are only about the Blu-ray situation and iPhone sales. The conclusions of what this means for Apple all come from McLean.

Yeah, I saw the link about Blu Ray but I didn't click because I didn't think that was the main thrust of the Reuters article, based on the headline of the AI article.

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

Apple also does sickeningly well at retail however, so your assumption about costs is not warranted.

Apparently (I don't have the figures handy), Apple sells more product per square foot of store than almost any other retailer, and this is a key marker of retail success or profit/loss. The overhead (even though it must be high relative to other lower service operations), is nothing compared to the wheelbarrows full of cash they are carrying out the back each night.

If any Apple stores close, it would have to be a very deep recession and the store would have to be a new one in a new location that didn't respond as well as might be hoped.

Apple has done very well in their retail stores. That point is indisputable.

But I'm looking forward and not backward. The Apple retail stores have a high overhead associated with them, IMO.

If it is a short recession then it won't make an impact. If it is a long and deep recession, which is what I believe (did you see the Best Buy outlook for the holiday sales season?), then I think that the high overhead of the Apple retail stores will negatively impact Apple earnings.

Now I'm not saying that Apple is going out of business or that the sky is falling. But they are not immune from the macro economic events that are occurring. I think earnings will decrease and the stock price will adjust accordingly.

[calguy]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

A Hollywood Reporter article syndicated by Reuters points out that Blu-ray, having finally defeated HD-DVD to become the exclusive successor to the DVD, is now facing a lull in consumer excitement just when it needed a bright holiday season to seal the deal.

The article cited Lori MacPherson, GM of domestic home-entertainment at Disney, as saying, "The economy is the biggest challenge, because there are just so many pieces to the Blu-ray puzzle that consumers face. You need the high-definition television set, you need the player, you need the cables, you need the software."

Apple's alternative to Blu-ray discs, in the form of iPod-friendly iTunes video downloads, can't really compete with the quality Blu-ray offers, particularly for users with HDTV sets larger than 50" where the increased resolution becomes most apparent.

From the reading I have done on this site and going to the Blu-ray licensing site and Steve Jobs saying that Blue-ray is a "bag of hurt", it's the Blu-ray association itself that seems to be the greatest roadblock to it becoming more widely distributed. The fees they charge are enormous -- thousands of dollars just to get a license to distribute. The major Film Studios can absorb it better compared to the little guy because the fee drops when you are making a great deal of disks. That's only one side. The other is the fees for the equipment and compatibility issues among manufactures to be able to play anyones disk on any player as you can now with DVD within regional limits.

If only Steve Jobs is his role with Disney and being a Blu-ray association member, maybe he can help resolve all of this. I for one would buy a MBP with a BR drive if the cost is reasonable. As of now, drives can cost mucho dollars where the license fee for it really drives up the price. So if more pressure were put on to lower these fees, I am hoping that will really help clear the way for it to be more generally adopted as DVD is now. I can only guess that there is greed in there (my opinion-haven't read this directly) to get as much as they can while they can.

The bottom line for me is just to be patient. I love the HD quality. You can see it in the Movie Preview section at Apple. Those just look so great with my 23" Mac display. I haven't found one DVD yet that can equal that detail and sharpness in those HD previews and I rent many films. I want the extras on the DVD and downloading just to see the film is not for me. They can't get that HD quality with downloads and they don't have those extras. Yea, when everyone fiber optics is available, then the download speeds can handle HD. That will many years away even in the major cities. I am rambling now. So that is my dime for getting it out there.

[Adjei]

Originally Posted by backtomac

I don't think that an increase in downloaded movie sales will power Apple through this recession.

Don't forget that Apple have a tremendous number of retail stores in expensive locations. It'll be interesting to see if the high overhead of operating these stores negatively impacts Apple in the recession. I suspect it will. This is an expense that HP, Dell and other pc makers don't have. While I do think that Apple retail stores are a net benefit to Apple I think they will be a double edge sword for Apple. Big benefit during good times and a negative during downturns.

Throw in the expensive product lines and I suspect the next year will be as difficult for Apple as it will be for everyone else.

We've been hearing about this recession for a year now, Apple is supposed to have been affected for a whole year now but their sales keeps on growing, when will they start to get affected?

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by Adjei

We've been hearing about this recession for a year now, Apple is supposed to have been affected for a whole year now but their sales keeps on growing, when will they start to get affected?

Were you climbing Mt. Everest last month?

[Adjei]

Originally Posted by backtomac

Apple has done very well in their retail stores. That point is indisputable.

But I'm looking forward and not backward. The Apple retail stores have a high overhead associated with them, IMO.

If it is a short recession then it won't make an impact. If it is a long and deep recession, which is what I believe (did you see the Best Buy outlook for the holiday sales season?), then I think that the high overhead of the Apple retail stores will negatively impact Apple earnings.

Now I'm not saying that Apple is going out of business or that the sky is falling. But they are not immune from the macro economic events that are occurring. I think earnings will decrease and the stock price will adjust accordingly.

But Apple is not Best Buy.

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by Adjei

But Apple is not Best Buy.

Agreed. But they are the largest retailer in the USA for electronics.

You think their opinion of holiday electronic sales is irrelevant?

[jfanning]

Originally Posted by calguy

The bottom line for me is just to be patient. I love the HD quality. You can see it in the Movie Preview section at Apple. Those just look so great with my 23" Mac display. I haven't found one DVD yet that can equal that detail and sharpness in those HD previews and I rent many films.

Those previews are very highly compressed, the banding in them is terrible. If that is an example of what HD downloads are like, I will carry on purchasing Blu-ray movies, at least then you get HD sound

[Robin Huber]

I sometimes wonder how it is that Apple seems to always make the right moves at just the right time. It's kind of scary. Either God loves Apple, or Steve has sold his soul to the devil.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by backtomac

Apple has done very well in their retail stores.

they haven't just done well, they have bested by a large margin every other retail chain in sales per sq. foot. Even if the article's premise is wrong about Apple forging through these economic times, Apple would have to loose an exorbitant amount of business for retail to loose money.

[shanmugam]

how about some fanboy "friendly" article AI?

enough said, apple has $25billion, they will survive this economic storm, and even can pay for all the employees for few years on the run ... all the Executives are well paid ...

what is the discount on Thanksgiving day sales on apple store?

[Rot'nApple]

Ed: Let's not do politics outside of Political Outsider.

[satchmo]

Perhaps they will do okay, but it certainly isn't reflected in the share price. Falling like the leaves in autumn.

[kerryn]

Originally Posted by calguy

I love the HD quality. You can see it in the Movie Preview section at Apple. Those just look so great with my 23" Mac display. I haven't found one DVD yet that can equal that detail and sharpness in those HD previews and I rent many films.

If you think the previews are good, then you really have not seen any real HD. The previews are adequate at best. But they are significantly over compressed with a lot of color banding.

I bought a PS3 just for Blu-ray and its media capabilities and I rent my movies using a Blockbuster subscription plan that it actually very good value of money when I consider the rubbish that iTunes HD movies are.

Real high bit rate (1920*1080*24p at ~25Mbps) HD with real lossless HD sound will triumph over iTunes movie downloads any day. The iTunes movies may be fine for watching on an iPod but I would not put one on my large screen TV.

[calguy]

Originally Posted by jfanning

Those previews are very highly compressed, the banding in them is terrible. If that is an example of what HD downloads are like, I will carry on purchasing Blu-ray movies, at least then you get HD sound

I just downloaded a few Movie Previews - at 720p and 1080p from the QT page and when playing them back, I couldn't see any banding-horizontal or vertical. The tones across were very even with no streaking. The only limitations I could see was what the original film stock that was used and how it was converted to HD and the mbps. Some film stock had the grain very much there like Tri-X grain while some other shots during daylight used a finer grain stock and was smoother. Both still had sharpness and when the same preview frame was viewed at both sizes and comparing the same frames at time, it is just like enlarging any image--it is all how the technical come together as in the focus, movement, type of lens, at what zoom it is set, etc. I do admit that these Movie previews are only a fraction of the quality from real Blue-ray. The 1080 plays at just under 10mbps while discs will play at 25mbps as is gratefully mentioned here. An no, I haven't seen a real Blu-ray disc played on a larger HD screen to get the full visual strength and quality, but I can imagine it. It is like the difference of shooting with a 35mm cam vs a Hasselblad. So, I look forward to the real thing. For me these 1080 previews are just a teaser to the potential toward what it can look like and a step up from standard DVDs.

Meanwhile, I will still keep renting my DVDs and play them through my Mac and will eventually rent the Blu-ray with Netflix. Although, I have read that they are starting to charge more now for Blu-ray with a monthly fee. I will have to compare them with Blockbuster regarding that when the time comes when Blu-ray does make to the Mac.

[Johnny Mozzarella]

Originally Posted by backtomac

I don't think that an increase in downloaded movie sales will power Apple through this recession.

Don't forget that Apple have a tremendous number of retail stores in expensive locations. It'll be interesting to see if the high overhead of operating these stores negatively impacts Apple in the recession. I suspect it will.

Apple has 250 "small" stores with moderate overhead.
BestBuy has 1500+ huge stores with very high overhead.

BestBuy generates $930 in sales per square foot of it's sales floor.
Apple generates $4032 in sales per square foot of it's sales floor.

Apple's stores are very profitable to the tune of 1.3Billion in profit last year.
That is about 6million in profit per store.
What do you think the annual rent for an average size store is?

Originally Posted by backtomac

This is an expense that HP, Dell and other pc makers don't have. While I do think that Apple retail stores are a net benefit to Apple I think they will be a double edge sword for Apple. Big benefit during good times and a negative during downturns.

Throw in the expensive product lines and I suspect the next year will be as difficult for Apple as it will be for everyone else.

Apple is an expert at marketing.
Their research shows that many consumers will not settle for a cheaper PCs because of the economy.
Instead they will just wait longer and save up for the Mac they really want.
I think they are right, the tide has changed and more consumers are willing to spend more money to get a Mac.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella

Apple is an expert at marketing.
Their research shows that many consumers will not settle for a cheaper PCs because of the economy.
Instead they will just wait longer and save up for the Mac they really want.
I think they are right, the tide has changed and more consumers are willing to spend more money to get a Mac.

Then how does one explain the Netbook phenomenon? I think that "Mac consumers" typically avoid the entry level because it's always Apple's most pathetic model but when we take a look at the whole market the low end is pretty robust.

[Adjei]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Then how does one explain the Netbook phenomenon? I think that "Mac consumers" typically avoid the entry level because it's always Apple's most pathetic model but when we take a look at the whole market the low end is pretty robust.

Who gives a damn about netbooks, how many netbooks are selling that Apple can even get in and make decent money, if you want a netbook, Apple is not for you.

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by Dogcow

Remember the iPod was introduced in October 2001... not exactly the best climate of economic stability and consumer confidence. SJ said then and it still holds true now, Apple innovates it's way out of tough times.

Keep in mind that was coincidental. The iPod project was started at the peak of the heady times, by the time anyone thought there was serious trouble, there was no sense in killing the project.

[ouragan]

All of these factors helped contribute to Apple's burgeoning coffers of cash, a critical strength required to continue investments in technology research and avoid employee layoffs during times of tightening credit. Many less fortunately positioned companies will either be driven out of business or have to find a stronger partner that can acquire them and fund their ongoing operational expenses.

I sure hope that everyone sold their Apple stock while they could reduce their losses. At $90.12, these stocks are still too expensive considering:

1) Apple's sales are going to be catastrophic for the Holiday Season and throughout 2009 until the world recession and credit crunch recede;

2) Because Apple computers are overpriced by $300, and iPhones come with a $90 a month cell phone contract, Apple products will be left on the shelves in favor of competitively priced items;

3) Hedge funds must liquidate their stake in Apple to meet a November 15, 2008 deadline.


I sure hope that no one believed these predictions of an Apple stock at $250 by analysts who were just speculating.

And, contrary to the paragraph I just quoted, I don't believe that Nokia, Microsoft, HP or Dell are going out of business any time soon. Do you honestly believe that these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy?

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella

Apple has 250 "small" stores with moderate overhead.
BestBuy has 1500+ huge stores with very high overhead.

BestBuy generates $930 in sales per square foot of it's sales floor.
Apple generates $4032 in sales per square foot of it's sales floor.

Apple's stores are very profitable to the tune of 1.3Billion in profit last year.
That is about 6million in profit per store.
What do you think the annual rent for an average size store is?

Compare apples to apples. Best Buy is a only a retailer. They don't design and produce electronic devices. Most other pc makers don't have retail stores. The only exception I can think of is Sony.

I only included the BB link to show that the leading consumer electronics retailer in the US, expects holiday sales to decrease 1-8% yoy. Now even Intel are adjusting their sales projections lower.

Maybe Apple will be able to do what others cannot and continue to increase their sales during this difficult economic period. I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella

Apple is an expert at marketing.
Their research shows that many consumers will not settle for a cheaper PCs because of the economy.
Instead they will just wait longer and save up for the Mac they really want.
I think they are right, the tide has changed and more consumers are willing to spend more money to get a Mac.

This will be the time to see if they are correct or not as to whether consumers will pay up fro Apple products. Time will tell.

[KenC]

Originally Posted by backtomac

Were you climbing Mt. Everest last month?

...the original poster knows that the economy is tanking. And, he knows that we've been hearing about it since January. And, he knows the price for Apple stock, has been nose-diving since then. The question is, where in Apple's financial results have any of this macroeconomic downturn shown itself? Apple has had record-breaking quarters, one after another. There's been no iota of evidence of a slowdown in their results. Having said that, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future, but that wasn't the original poster's question. He wants to know why Apple hasn't shown any slowdown to date, even though the scaremongers have been shouting since January.

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by KenC

...the original poster knows that the economy is tanking. And, he knows that we've been hearing about it since January. And, he knows the price for Apple stock, has been nose-diving since then. The question is, where in Apple's financial results have any of this macroeconomic downturn shown itself? Apple has had record-breaking quarters, one after another. There's been no iota of evidence of a slowdown in their results. Having said that, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future, but that wasn't the original poster's question. He wants to know why Apple hasn't shown any slowdown to date, even though the scaremongers have been shouting since January.

If you listen to Cisco and now Intel, you will see that they are reporting that business dropped severely starting in October. If you look at articles on cnbc and cnnfn you will see many businesses reporting similar activity.

Perhaps Apple and its customers live in a vacuum and are insulated from events that seem to be affecting all businesses in all parts of the world. Perhaps they don't.

[KenC]

Originally Posted by backtomac

I only included the BB link to show that the leading consumer electronics retailer in the US, expects holiday sales to decrease 1-8% yoy. Now even Intel are adjusting their sales projections lower.

Maybe Apple will be able to do what others cannot and continue to increase their sales during this difficult economic period. I doubt it.

This will be the time to see if they are correct or not as to whether consumers will pay up fro Apple products. Time will tell.

Yes, and put some context on BB's news. Circuit City is going bankrupt. That's their biggest competitor. Do you know what they are going to do over Xmas? Heck ya, Firedog sale! That means a race to the bottom on pricing so as to liquidate their merchandise, and do you know what that does to BestBuy? Yep, it hits them in the wallet, as they have to compete with CC's going out of business prices. So, sure, who didn't expect BB to adjust their earnings outlook?

Having said that, what is Apple's exposure to BB? Honestly, it's still quite small.

Let's just do some math. BB sells what, iPods, iPhones and Macs. They are in what, 600 stores? Apple has some 30,000 points-of sale for iPods and iPhones. I'm not sure what it is for Macs, but you get my drift.

Let's say BB accounts for 2% of Apple's POS. Do their sales account for 2% of Apple's revenues? Hard to say, but I'm guessing not, but let's use 2% anyway. If BB is down 1 to 8% yoy, what effect does that have on 2% of Apple's sales?

Exactly, 1 to 8% down on 2% of Apple's sales, mean a possible hit of 0.02% to 0.16%. On $10B in sales, that's about $2M or $16M less. Barely a dent in Apple.

Now, you can argue that BB is an indicator for all of Apple retail, but is it? WalMart is a big seller of iPods and they are predicting a strong Xmas. Apple is being conservative, but I didn't hear them come out with an adjustment on guidance.

The point is, BB's news is important, but it has to be taken in CONTEXT!

[KenC]

Originally Posted by backtomac

If you listen to Cisco and now Intel, you will see that they are reporting that business dropped severely starting in October. If you look at articles on cnbc and cnnfn you will see many businesses reporting similar activity.

Perhaps Apple and its customers live in a vacuum and are insulated from events that seem to be affecting all businesses in all parts of the world. Perhaps they don't.

Clearly, you have a problem with reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say anything about the future. The original poster made a question about all the past naysaying and wanted to see evidence. I mean, how is he to know this isn't just a sky-is-falling scenario. You just seem to want to keep spouting your own little rant, without answering the original poster's question. Why quote him, if you aren't going to answer his question.

[KenC]

And, I forgot to mention the hypocrisy in your posts. In one post, you go on about comparing Apples-to-Apples, and how you can't compare BB to Apple Retail, but the very next post you are talking about Cisco's guidance. How is Cisco supposed to reflect upon Apple? Are they in the same line of business?