Apple declares iPhone a challenger to Nintendo DS

[AppleInsider]

Further shifting attention on the iPhone towards gaming, an Apple executive has out-and-out stated the device is a genuine competitor to the best handheld consoles on the market.

The comments come from Apple Director of Technology Evangelism John Geleynse, who witnesses for Engadget say made the aggressive claims at an iPhone Tech Talk in San Jose, near the company's Cupertino headquarters.

At the developer gathering, the official urged developers to forget about the handset as a traditional cellphone and, as game developers, to think of it strictly as a game console.

"It's not a phone, it's a console experience," Geleynse is reported as saying.

While a bold statement, the claim is in line with an increasingly gaming-centric marketing strategy at Apple. Virtually all of the electronics firm's video ads for the second-generation iPod touch have focused on gaming, while the majority of paid apps at the App Store have typically been games.

Other parties are also known to be getting involved as well. Electronic Arts on Friday said it will host special events at flagship Apple retail stores in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York and San Francisco during December to promote the iPhone and iPod touch as gaming platforms and show off the software company's game library.

Apple hasn't necessarily needed to ask for help to position its touchscreen handhelds as gaming devices, though, and has been achieving similar or better sales than offerings from Nintendo or Sony. Nintendo recently touted NPD Group data noting that it sold a near-record 1.56 million DS handhelds during November, but is likely to be outpaced by Apple's iPhone sales alone: in summer, the company sold 6.9 million iPhones

[lightstriker]

what can't the iphone do? its a phone, mobile internet device, music player, and now gaming platform. The App Store is making it the most versitile device that defies catagories.

[Zandros]

So, when will all this gaming hysteria leak over to the Mac desktop? When will Apple announce the iMac as a competitor to the PS3?

[thebg]

I really think that it's silly to declare the iPhone a challenger to the DS. Yes, it has better graphics but so does the PSP. What do the PSP and DS have in common? They are both designed to be gaming systems, something that the iPhone was not. While I do think that the iPhone can revolutionize what Cell phone gaming is, that's all it will do. It will not touch the level of games on the DS or PSP. Not because it's incapable, but because they're selling to two separate markets.

[dagamer34]

iPhone controls limit what kind of games are produced. There are way too many racers that use the accelerometer. Nothing stands out anymore.

[monstrosity]

Originally Posted by Zandros

So, when will all this gaming hysteria leak over to the Mac desktop? When will Apple announce the iMac as a competitor to the PS3?

Well, I believe thats why they are holding out on updating the Apple TV (one of the reasons). When the update arrives it's gonna be marketed towards gaming to a much larger extent.

[addabox]

Originally Posted by thebg

I really think that it's silly to declare the iPhone a challenger to the DS. Yes, it has better graphics but so does the PSP. What do the PSP and DS have in common? They are both designed to be gaming systems, something that the iPhone was not. While I do think that the iPhone can revolutionize what Cell phone gaming is, that's all it will do. It will not touch the level of games on the DS or PSP. Not because it's incapable, but because they're selling to two separate markets.

If Apple is serious about this game thing, they really should make or officially bless a third party d-pad cradle for the Touch and the iPhone.

There needn't be much to it, it needn't cost much, but it would transform the iPhone/Touch into a serious contender.

Of course, Apple probably won't do that because they want all the developer focus to be on the out-of-the-box experience.

[FireEmblemPride]

Nintendo recently touted NPD Group data noting that it sold a near-record 1.56 million DS handhelds during November, but is likely to be outpaced by Apple's iPhone sales alone: in summer, the company sold 6.9 million iPhones

I don't mean to rain on Apple's parade, but Nintendo sold 13.73 Million DS systems worldwide from April 2008 until the end of September.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2008/081030e.pdf

[thebg]

Originally Posted by addabox

If Apple is serious about this game thing, they really should make or officially bless a third party d-pad cradle for the Touch and the iPhone.

There needn't be much to it, it needn't cost much, but it would transform the iPhone/Touch into a serious contender.

Of course, Apple probably won't do that because they want all the developer focus to be on the out-of-the-box experience.

There's no doubt that it would help significantly but I just wonder how bulky the thing would be. I've found a couple but can't remember where at the moment. I'm also wondering how deep of a gaming experience you would get on the iPhone. It could do wonders as a casual device, much like the Wii, but I'm wondering just how much of a GAMERS device this would be.

On a related note: I'll probably be getting an iPhone next week (my bday/end of VZW contract!) Upon hearing this a friend of mine asked if I would get rid of my DS Lite. At that point I laughed and walked away.

[guinness]

The fact that I've now heard 2 heads from Apple (Joswiak was the other) that mentioned the iPhone as a gaming device, just leads me to believe that Apple knows absolutely nothing about games or the gaming market.

Yeah, I've got a couple decent game on my Touch, but other than that, it won't replace my PSP. I really do need physical buttons, especially shoulder buttons, as they allow you do multiple actions at at once, and give some tactile feedback. If you've ever tried playing the NES emulator or Quake on your jailbroken iPhone/Touch, it just isn't that comfortable at all.

And if it's any company that understands the handheld market, it's Nintendo. They would absolutely crush Apple. Not only that, but Nintendo and Sony both have established game franchises, Apple has nothing to draw people in.

[malax]

Originally Posted by guinness

The fact that I've now heard 2 heads from Apple (Joswiak was the other) that mentioned the iPhone as a gaming device, just leads me to believe that Apple knows absolutely nothing about games or the gaming market.

Yeah, I've got a couple decent game on my Touch, but other than that, it won't replace my PSP. I really do need physical buttons, especially shoulder buttons, as they allow you do multiple actions at at once, and give some tactile feedback. If you've ever tried playing the NES emulator or Quake on your jailbroken iPhone/Touch, it just isn't that comfortable at all.

And if it's any company that understands the handheld market, it's Nintendo. They would absolutely crush Apple. Not only that, but Nintendo and Sony both have established game franchises, Apple has nothing to draw people in.

I have elementary school age kids and both of them and pretty much every one of their friends spend most of the gaming time on their DS's playing Pokemon games. From their perspective (and they represent a HUGE audience) if it ain't got Pokemon, it's not a gaming platform. Of course Nintendo owns the rights to Pokemon, so I don't think you'll see any Pokemon games in the App Store any time soon.

[addabox]

Originally Posted by guinness

The fact that I've now heard 2 heads from Apple (Joswiak was the other) that mentioned the iPhone as a gaming device, just leads me to believe that Apple knows absolutely nothing about games or the gaming market.

Yeah, I've got a couple decent game on my Touch, but other than that, it won't replace my PSP. I really do need physical buttons, especially shoulder buttons, as they allow you do multiple actions at at once, and give some tactile feedback. If you've ever tried playing the NES emulator or Quake on your jailbroken iPhone/Touch, it just isn't that comfortable at all.

And if it's any company that understands the handheld market, it's Nintendo. They would absolutely crush Apple. Not only that, but Nintendo and Sony both have established game franchises, Apple has nothing to draw people in.

I hear what you're saying, but the Touch/iPhone are multi-purpose devices. I would think the "draw people in" part would be well handled by that fact, and when some pretty good games prove to be available-- well, that's just icing on the cake.

That is, the Touch/iPhone don't suffer from the chicken and egg dilemma that a new dedicated game device would face, where no games equal no sales and no sales equal no games. There are plenty of reasons to buy these machines even if game development never takes off.

However, the devices themselves are capable enough, and the addition of some kind of cradle would make those that wanted a more robust controller experience happy. If Apple keeps selling these devices at the rate they are, and the app store keeps churning through product at the rate it is, I would think developers would have plenty of incentive to do their thing.

So that's kinda the whole enchilada, isn't it? Maybe you don't get the big boys poring resources into porting their marquee games, but the WII suggests that isn't necessary to be hugely successful-- you can create your own market if you offer something fresh.

I think the WII also puts the lie to the distinction between "casual gamers" and "real gamers", at least economically. What does Apple care if "real gamers" don't regard the Touch/iPhone as a legitimate contender, if they're selling lots and lots of games and lots and lots of handsets?

[mrpiddly]

Originally Posted by dagamer34

iPhone controls limit what kind of games are produced. There are way too many racers that use the accelerometer. Nothing stands out anymore.

The problem is that most people are using the concepts from physical/home computer based games and just porting them over to the iPhone.




The only real limiting factor limiting the iPhone as a gaming device is the level of developer commitment. If developers build great games that are designed for the iphone, the iPhone could eliminate standalone gaming handhelds. Apple could help this along in a number of ways, such as reworking the app store so that not just the $0.99 Apps all end up on top and helping games to break the $9.99 barrier.

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by malax

I have elementary school age kids and both of them and pretty much every one of their friends spend most of the gaming time on their DS's playing Pokemon games. From their perspective (and they represent a HUGE audience) if it ain't got Pokemon, it's not a gaming platform. Of course Nintendo owns the rights to Pokemon, so I don't think you'll see any Pokemon games in the App Store any time soon.

Right. And before Pokemon there was no such thing as a good game. Come on. Things change. Eras pass away and new eras begin. Think like a visionary for moment and not an automaton.

[thebg]

Originally Posted by addabox

I hear what you're saying, but the Touch/iPhone are multi-purpose devices. I would think the "draw people in" part would be well handled by that fact, and when some pretty good games prove to be available-- well, that's just icing on the cake.

That is, the Touch/iPhone don't suffer from the chicken and egg dilemma that a new dedicated game device would face, where no games equal no sales and no sales equal no games. There are plenty of reasons to buy these machines even if game development never takes off.

However, the devices themselves are capable enough, and the addition of some kind of cradle would make those that wanted a more robust controller experience happy. If Apple keeps selling these devices at the rate they are, and the app store keeps churning through product at the rate it is, I would think developers would have plenty of incentive to do their thing.

So that's kinda the whole enchilada, isn't it? Maybe you don't get the big boys poring resources into porting their marquee games, but the WII suggests that isn't necessary to be hugely successful-- you can create your own market if you offer something fresh.

I think the WII also puts the lie to the distinction between "casual gamers" and "real gamers", at least economically. What does Apple care if "real gamers" don't regard the Touch/iPhone as a legitimate contender, if they're selling lots and lots of games and lots and lots of handsets?

That's just the thing, because they can do so much no one will buy them just to play games. If games are nothing more than another thing that the device can do then the amount of big time support that the device is going to get will dwindle. Without this support there will be no big time games, just an evolution of what phones can currently do. Not to say that's not a feat in itself but it's far from eliminating the traditional handheld gaming device.

[Adjei]

Originally Posted by FireEmblemPride

I don't mean to rain on Apple's parade, but Nintendo sold 13.73 Million DS systems worldwide from April 2008 until the end of September.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2008/081030e.pdf

And Apple will probably sell more iphones and touches this year than Nintendo, big deal.

[thebg]

Originally Posted by Adjei

And Apple will probably sell more iphones and touches this year than Nintendo, big deal.

Doubt that as estimates have the iPhone at at about 13 million units to date. (got the number off of wikipedia, they are using this AI article as their citation although I can't find the number directly in there) With the DS selling more than that between April and September this year I don't see the iPhone surpassing that. Still impressive numbers for a more expensive device, but not quite even.

Edit: Oops, missed the "and touches" part... But it's folly to disregard the monster that is the Nintendo DS, especially with the newly designed DSi having its worldwide debut in the middle of next year.

[bdkennedy1]

Ummmm, the iPhone is not a console. It's not a box that sits on the floor and it doesn't connect to a TV.

con·sole
Pronunciation:
\ˈkän-ˌsōl\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French
Date:
1664
1: an architectural member projecting from a wall to form a bracket or from a keystone for ornament
2: console table
3 a: an upright case that houses the keyboards and controlling mechanisms of an organ and from which the organ is played b: a combination of readouts or displays and an input device (as a keyboard or switches) by which an operator can monitor and interact with a system (as a computer or dubber)
4 a: a cabinet (as for a radio or television set) designed to rest directly on the floor b: a small storage cabinet between bucket seats in an automobile
5: an electronic system that connects to a display (as a television set) and is used primarily to play video games

[icfireball]

Because gaming has outperformed and practically ignored the recession so far.

[mbarriault]

Yeah, I have my DS and I have my iPhone. iPhone won't be for gaming like my DS is, but then again, I'm almost certain that when they say iPhone now competes with DS, they're meaning the burgeoning casual market and if they reintroduce the Apple TV with gaming capabilities, they'll also say it competes with the Wii but will be strictly referring to casual (there will be no epics like Mario Galaxy or Conduit for a gaming Apple TV). Some of the best DS games actually mix button and touch controls very well (Zelda: Phantom Hourglass for instance), but doesn't strictly rely on one, unlike the iPhone and PSP.

That being said, I think Apple and Nintendo would've been far better off working together. Imagine this: the iPod touch held sideways, and slightly thicker to accommodate a physical storage medium. Add some extra width so there's a D-pad on the left, ABXY on the right, and two shoulder buttons. Such a device would allow for both casual games distributed via App Store, controlled almost exclusively by touch screen (many games would be exclusive to remain compatible with the iPhone), and deeper, more expensive games distributed via traditional channels with mixed button and touch controls. I would buy such a device. I also hold that they should do the same for a home console: essentially a Wii with Mac-cooperating multimedia features and greater internal storage.

[miamitranceman]

We need games for the computers, forget the iPhone.

[wheelhot]

I hope with Apple want the iPhone to be more game like they wont forget to make it more enterprise standard.

[anantksundaram]

Originally Posted by thebg

.....It will not touch the level of games on the DS or PSP. Not because it's incapable, but because they're selling to two separate markets.

That observation just about nails it.

[sandau]

it's got one button.

[MacTel]

Good for Apple. I'll stick with the DS for my kids though. More kids game and they like using the stylus, plus the dual screen is nice.

The updated DS, coming next spring to the US, will have larger screens and a built-in camera. When is the Touch going to get a camera built-in eh?

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by miamitranceman

We need games for the computers, forget the iPhone.

You don't get it. The iPhone runs OS X. This is a back door play into the gaming market.

The Wii's free ride will soon be over. Developers will be able to program for the handheld, desktop and console market with OS X.

It will be interesting to see which gets a DVD player first, the Wii or the Apple TV.

[FireEmblemPride]

Originally Posted by Adjei

And Apple will probably sell more iphones and touches this year than Nintendo, big deal.

Nintendo sold more DS systems in 6 months than Apple projected for iPhones when they first announced the thing. DS sales are going to break records in December in the U.S. alone, nevermind other places like Japan where the iPhone is a non-factor.

I doubt the iPhone will even outsell the Wii.

This doesn't even take into consideration that one can't prove how many iPhones are bought for the purposes of being a gaming device.

[OptionTrader]

Originally Posted by icfireball

Because gaming has outperformed and practically ignored the recession so far.

The tendency to masturbate on these forums has ignored the recession as well...

[arj8138]

Originally Posted by Frank777

You don't get it. The iPhone runs OS X. This is a back door play into the gaming market........It will be interesting to see which gets a DVD player first, the Wii or the Apple TV.

Clearly you dont get it. Apple will never add a DVD player to Apple TV...why? Because then its a less powerful Mac Mini. Also Apple hates physical media. Thats why they havent put BluRay into their Macs yet - they know as well as everyone else that digital distribution is the clear winner in the format wars.

Companies are stupid to still pay to produce something physical when its much cheaper to just send it out over the Internet - and much MUCH greener too.


In terms of gaming I consider myself to be somewhere between moderate gamer and that guy that died b/c he didnt stand up from playing WoW for three days - meaning that I usto be into it somewhat hardcore but now not so much - and I have to say that the iPhone/Pod Touch will never be a replacement for physical buttons for a video game. The tactical feedback mentioned about is CRUCIAL.

[Adjei]

Originally Posted by FireEmblemPride

Nintendo sold more DS systems in 6 months than Apple projected for iPhones when they first announced the thing. DS sales are going to break records in December in the U.S. alone, nevermind other places like Japan where the iPhone is a non-factor.

I doubt the iPhone will even outsell the Wii.

This doesn't even take into consideration that one can't prove how many iPhones are bought for the purposes of being a gaming device.

Dude did you bother to read what I wrote. There has already been 10 million iPhones sold this year already, and that doesnt even include the numbers for the touch. Show me your numbers for the wii and ds.

[FireEmblemPride]

Originally Posted by Adjei

Dude did you bother to read what I wrote. There has already been 10 million iPhones sold this year already, and that doesnt even include the numbers for the touch. Show me your numbers for the wii and ds.

DS - 2008
Japan - 3,242,170 (Source: Media Create)
US - 6,863,000 (Source: NPD)
Total - 10,105,170

Wii - 2008
Japan - 2,505,165 (Source: Media Create)
US - 7,985,000 (Source: NPD)
Total - 10,490,165

The Wii and DS outpace the iPhone in just two countries. You can throw in the iPod touch, but remember that Europe is currently the biggest territory for the DS and very close to the US for the Wii. This shouldn't be surprising considering the relative hurdles in having to buy an iPhone and the price differentials. I can throw in numbers for Canada, Australia, South Korea and so forth if I spent the time and researched, but it's not worth it considering the US and Japan alone drive my argument to be correct. DS and Wii and are likely to break the 20 Million barrier when all of 2008 is finally considered. Maybe even 25 Million barrier.

In other words, it's not likely for the touch and iPhone to outsell either of these machines.

[technohermit]

Originally Posted by lightstriker

what can't the iphone do? its a phone, mobile internet device, music player, and now gaming platform. The App Store is making it the most versitile device that defies catagories.

Don't forget GPS. Saved my butt a few times already. Really super now that it has street view.

[technohermit]

Originally Posted by arj8138

Companies are stupid to still pay to produce something physical when its much cheaper to just send it out over the Internet - and much MUCH greener too.

Don't forget, DRM friendly for the anti-consumer content producer, too.

[inkswamp]

Originally Posted by Frank777

You don't get it. The iPhone runs OS X. This is a back door play into the gaming market.

The Wii's free ride will soon be over. Developers will be able to program for the handheld, desktop and console market with OS X.

It will be interesting to see which gets a DVD player first, the Wii or the Apple TV.

Let me be the first to confirm for you that whatever it is you're smoking is really good shit.

[heavydevelopment]

But it's not to say they are going to overtake DS anytime soon. They are an option. I think games are fun, and while I had a PSP at one time, I found I'm not much of a "gamer". So the iPhone apps work for me. One problem with the PSP, while pretty frickin cool, the cost of the games was prohibitive to to someone that is casual. So here's the point that Apple is driving at, there are many more "casual" gamers out there that are willing to pay up to maybe on the outside $20 for a game (but that better be the shiznit), but for the most part it's going to be less than $10. Less than $10 a game AND I can download it (opposed to planning and having to go somewhere to buy it) then you have something--call it impulse buy and I do it with the iPhone on a weekly basis. I'm someone that needs to pass maybe 10-15mins at a stretch not 2hrs,6hrs,8hrs....two days. These 15minute people is what the iphone/touch is going to appeal to as a gaming device. I can guarantee that 2 years from now this discussion is going to a whole lot different.....

But with that said. If Apple thought the iPhone was supposed to be a gaming device as a BIG feature, why didn't they get EA to have some games out the chute? Like Madden and Tiger? They have them for the ipod and othe mobile devices. Gameloft too? Why didn't they have some titles read to hit the ground running? They need more titles plain and simple for them to be competitive with anyone.

BTW, the EA Monopoly is pretty cool and it allows wifi game play. Hopefully Madden soon.

[Marvin]

After playing a number of games on the iphone and having done so on the PSP, I don't think the game quality right now is on par, though load times on the iphone are much faster. Developers have mentioned how powerful the iphone is but it's not really. Even PSone quality games lag at intense scenes in games like Hero of Sparta.

Perhaps this just needs more optimization on the part of the developers as PSP titles took a while to improve graphics to the level they have now but the iphone seems to lag after a while.

The touch controls are frustrating in a lot of games. Brothers in Arms isn't terrible but the touch controls mean you can end up in open fire by it misinterpreting your button presses and it does quite often.

Accelerometer driving is dull and hard to control too. Touch controls don't really give you any reason to keep revisiting classic games over and over again like checkers, scrabble, monopoly etc. These games have been played to death.

One issue with game quality is to do with the app store. Games are typically no larger than 100MB to ensure good download speeds but PSP games are closer to 1GB. If they improve quality, they will lengthen download times.

I do think the iphone can be a powerful gaming device but the big console makers own a lot of the great franchises so we'll be left with junk games that nobody really wants to play.

Star Wars the Force Unleashed was put on there but it's rubbish compared to the PSP version. The racing games look like DS versions, crappy physics, textures etc.

It's too early to dismiss the iphone as a gaming platform as developers are just waking up to what it's capable of and really just making quick ports to see if it will be profitable. NFS undercover is coming this month so hopefully that will show better graphics quality.

I'd like to see games like Burnout, Tomb Raider, Splinter Cell (these are very gesture based), Jak & Daxter, Lego Batman/Indiana Jones/Star Wars, GTA: Vice City Stories equivalent. If some of those franchises make it to the iphone and they are done well, the iphone will have made it as a rival to the other portable gaming devices.

[halhiker]

Originally Posted by bdkennedy1

Ummmm, the iPhone is not a console. It's not a box that sits on the floor and it doesn't connect to a TV.

con·sole
Pronunciation:
\ˈkän-ˌsōl\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French
Date:
1664
1: an architectural member projecting from a wall to form a bracket or from a keystone for ornament
2: console table
3 a: an upright case that houses the keyboards and controlling mechanisms of an organ and from which the organ is played b: a combination of readouts or displays and an input device (as a keyboard or switches) by which an operator can monitor and interact with a system (as a computer or dubber)
4 a: a cabinet (as for a radio or television set) designed to rest directly on the floor b: a small storage cabinet between bucket seats in an automobile
5: an electronic system that connects to a display (as a television set) and is used primarily to play video games

Apple called the iPod Touch the FUNNEST iPod ever. Do you think they really care that much about proper grammar and linguistics? Next year there will be a sixth definition for console: A handheld gaming device. Once Steve says it, it will be so.

[TenoBell]

Apple has already sold 44.1 million iPods through 2008. Generally sells around 22 million during the Christmas quarter. Revenue for the iPod has risen while unit sales have not. It is expected that the Touch is the reason.

Originally Posted by FireEmblemPride

The Wii and DS outpace the iPhone in just two countries. You can throw in the iPod touch, but remember that Europe is currently the biggest territory for the DS and very close to the US for the Wii. This shouldn't be surprising considering the relative hurdles in having to buy an iPhone and the price differentials. I can throw in numbers for Canada, Australia, South Korea and so forth if I spent the time and researched, but it's not worth it considering the US and Japan alone drive my argument to be correct. DS and Wii and are likely to break the 20 Million barrier when all of 2008 is finally considered. Maybe even 25 Million barrier.

In other words, it's not likely for the touch and iPhone to outsell either of these machines.

[FireEmblemPride]

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Apple has already sold 44.1 million iPods through 2008. Generally sells around 22 million during the Christmas quarter. Revenue for the iPod has risen while unit sales have not. It is expected that the Touch is the reason.

Revenue rose by 3% this last quarter, which is not indicative of anything regarding the touch because Apple's also shipped/sold more iPods than ever in a non-holiday quarter.

It also doesn't help that I quoted actual sales from Media Create and NPD while Apple's numbers are shipments. I used a Nintendo PDF document which contained shipments, but the Wii is consistently sold out everywhere except Japan anyway.

[winterspan]

The ironic part is that the Imagination inc. PowerVR "MBX lite" in the iPhone/Touch is very weak in comparison to their latest chips. The reason why the iPhone looks so good is probably the OpenGL optimization and the fact that the competing Nintendo DS and the Sony PSP units are very old in computing terms. The new generation from Imagination is the PowerVR "SGX" line, and it has actually been out for quite a while now! If they combine an PowerVR SGX with the new ARM Cortex-A8 core for the next iPhone/Touch, it is going to blow away what we're seeing now!