Devs asked to test third party app support in Snow Leopard

[AppleInsider]

Apple this week has tapped a handful of choice developers to test third party application support against a new build of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard in a sign the software is nearing a stage of refinement and optimization.

Mac OS X 10.6 build 10A261 is believed to be just the third external beta distribution of Snow Leopard since the next-gen operating system was first previewed at last June's Worldwide Developers Conference.

As of press time, however, the software was not available to the Mac maker's general developer community and was instead provided to a subset of testers sometimes privy to pre-release Apple software ahead of the broader developer population.

In addition to asking developers to focus their testing efforts on evaluating the stability of non-Apple software running on the system, the Cupertino-based company is also seeking feedback on a new set of included printer drivers and the latest implementation of Microsoft Exchange support.

Compared to earlier builds 10A190 and 10A222, it's reported that there are few noticeable changes to the software outside of some minor adjustments to the Mac OS X System Preferences pane and bug fixes to the new Cocoa-based Finder.

Apple has said that it plans to release Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard (topic page RSS feed) within a year's time of last year's June developers conference, meaning it could show up any time between early spring and the fall.

In the meantime, readers interested in learning about some of the real-world benefits of upcoming Snow Leopard technologies may want to check out AppleInsider's ongoing Road to Snow Leopard series.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Apple this week has tapped a handful of choice developers to test third party application support against a new build of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard in a sign the software is nearing a stage of refinement and optimization.

Mac OS X 10.6 build 10A261 is believed to be just the third external beta distribution of Snow Leopard since the next-gen operating system was first previewed at last June's Worldwide Developers Conference.

As of press time, however, the software was not available to the Mac maker's general developer community and was instead provided to a subset of testers sometimes privy to pre-release Apple software ahead of the broader developer population.

In addition to asking developers to focus their testing efforts on evaluating the stability of non-Apple software running on the system, the Cupertino-based company is also seeking feedback on a new set of included printer drivers and the latest implementation of Microsoft Exchange support.

Compared to earlier builds 10A190 and 10A222, it's reported that there are few noticeable changes to the software outside of some minor adjustments to the Mac OS X System Preferences pane and bug fixes to the new Cocoa-based Finder.

Apple has said that it plans to release Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard (topic page RSS feed) within a year's time of last year's June developers conference, meaning it could show up any time between early spring and the fall.

In the meantime, readers interested in learning about some of the real-world benefits of upcoming Snow Leopard technologies may want to check out AppleInsider's ongoing Road to Snow Leopard series.

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.

Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.

[Squuiid]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.

Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.

Great post. Totally agree.

[Kasper]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.

Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.

Well, I don't want to go into detail, but the developers who I believe received this build aren't necessarily WWDC attendees but developers of a program similar to ADC for partners and large software developers.

[Booga]

I haven't heard anyone complain (yet) that they didn't get OS drop in time to get their apps ready for that OS's release. I understand they're disappointed they don't have the latest toys to play with, but if they feel lack of the OS is really going to impact the quality of their software release then definitely take it up with Apple's developer relations.

[shadow]

Apple will post the build to Select members (the $500 membership) when it decides it needs to. I believe there will be plenty of time for them to check their apps for compatibility. I don't think the fact that Premier developers ($1500 membership, or was it $3000?) or major developers (Adobe?, Microsoft?) get beta builds first is a reason to complain. We all want more info, but let's not blame Apple for our impatience!

[MacTel]

This is a good indication that we won't see Snow Leopard early as has been rumored. June is 4 months away if that is when Snow Leopard will be released. That's a very short window of testing.

I wouldn't be supprised if it ships later than June and at WWDC the devs just get the latest release candidate.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.

I could be wrong, but your post sounds like someone who is bitter they don't have the latest and greatest first. This isn't about WWDC - Apple has always given Microsoft, Adobe, and other bigger players seeds first and this is what they're doing here.

Is there something particular in this build that every ADC member absolutely must have? What is it?

Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.

What are they doing here that is so terrible? It's a good idea to first test with a small group before sending it out to a large one. Otherwise you get back numerous bug reports of everyone finding the same bugs. Why not get rid of those so testers could find the smaller, hard-to-find ones. Wouldn't you, as a developer, do the same thing?

[SuperMacGuy]

God I hope Adobe is one of them to pre-test their software!

[melgross]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.

Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.

I suppose that's true.

But, on the other hand, many developers don't even do much work until the OS is released, so I'm not impressed by that.

We hear this all the time by even the biggest developers, when they say they can't do much work until after the OS is out, because of the small changes often made at the last minute before the Golden Master.

They've certainly seen enough already to know the direction in which Apple is going.

If I were a developer, I would much rather see a new build after most of the major bugs were out. Let those few large developers work that out for me. They have the resources, which is why Apple gives it to them first. When they report back to Apple about major glitches, Apple fixes those, and releases a slightly newer build to a wider group.

I have more than a few friends who are developers, and they tell me that there's nothing worse than geting a new build with bugs, in areas where there weren't any before.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Gustav

I could be wrong, but your post sounds like someone who is bitter they don't have the latest and greatest first. This isn't about WWDC - Apple has always given Microsoft, Adobe, and other bigger players seeds first and this is what they're doing here.

Is there something particular in this build that every ADC member absolutely must have? What is it?

What are they doing here that is so terrible? It's a good idea to first test with a small group before sending it out to a large one. Otherwise you get back numerous bug reports of everyone finding the same bugs. Why not get rid of those so testers could find the smaller, hard-to-find ones. Wouldn't you, as a developer, do the same thing?

No it's not me. I recently came across the developer's blog where he stated he may not sign up for ADC because it wasn't delivering value that made his company run more efficiently. He felt like he was a 3rd class developer because he didn't attend WWDC (which sold out last year so many developers couldn't get in if they tried) and that seeding was so late that it was throwing his time table off.

I'm assuming that $500 annual fees in conjunction with delayed seeding harm the profits of smaller ISV. They want product out fast as well but if Apple's only catering to large developers (who frankly have little desire to push forward with OS X tech IMO) then I think he has a point.

Apple has always had a spotty relationship with developers. They've improved by eons over the years but you have to hold their feet to the fire sometimes.

My remedy. Give the seeds to the ADC developers in time and do not punish devs for not having the time or money to attend WWDC. It's a tough market for all and ISV don't have billions in the bank to ride out the rough times.

[Booga]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

No it's not me. I recently came across the developer's blog where he stated he may not sign up for ADC because it wasn't delivering value that made his company run more efficiently. He felt like he was a 3rd class developer because he didn't attend WWDC (which sold out last year so many developers couldn't get in if they tried) and that seeding was so late that it was throwing his time table off.

I'm assuming that $500 annual fees in conjunction with delayed seeding harm the profits of smaller ISV. They want product out fast as well but if Apple's only catering to large developers (who frankly have little desire to push forward with OS X tech IMO) then I think he has a point.

Apple has always had a spotty relationship with developers. They've improved by eons over the years but you have to hold their feet to the fire sometimes.

My remedy. Give the seeds to the ADC developers in time and do not punish devs for not having the time or money to attend WWDC. It's a tough market for all and ISV don't have billions in the bank to ride out the rough times.

Apple doesn't have infinite resources. In the weeks leading up to WWDC all the developers are scrambling to finish stuff off and put together presentations. So they put together everything for the conference. Then when it's over they post it all on the developer's site albeit with a slight delay. Those that didn't go to the conference still got that build, only a few weeks later, didn't they? Considering that OS isn't even out yet, it's hard to argue that they're being materially hurt by the delay.

And $500 doesn't begin to cover the costs for Apple. If it's really not bringing them value, by all means they shouldn't be signing up for it!

[kim kap sol]

Originally Posted by SuperMacGuy

God I hope Adobe is one of them to pre-test their software!

I wouldn't change a damn thing. Subtle "start developing in Cocoa NOW" messages from Apple 10 years ago never actually filtered through Adobe's thick corporate skull.

[iVlad]

So that's how Micro$oft copies Apple. I always wondered how they see it first. This is how.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.

Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.

That is quite a severe accusation that you just made. Could you support your statement?

Or are you just screwing the dog as usual?

[JavaCowboy]

Originally Posted by kim kap sol

I wouldn't change a damn thing. Subtle "start developing in Cocoa NOW" messages from Apple 10 years ago never actually filtered through Adobe's thick corporate skull.

Well, to be fair, the following organizations were also slow to move to Cocoa:

1) Microsoft (Office is still Carbon)
2) Mozilla (Firefox is slowly moving to Cocoa)
3) Eclipse foundation (SWT is being ported from Carbon to Cocoa)
4) OpenOffice (the first alpha of the native Mac version was written in Carbon, Apple suggested strongly they move to Cocoa, so the second alpha was Cocoa).

Also, Apple itself has been slow to move some of their own apps to Cocoa:

1) Finder
2) iTunes
3) QuickTime
4) The Dock
5) Other miscellaneous programs

With Snow Leopard, Apple will now be eating its own dog food for all its native apps.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

That is quite a severe accusation that you just made. Could you support your statement?

Or are you just screwing the dog as usual?

Abster

dammit I wish I could have saved that post it was just a few days ago and from a developer that every Mac enthusiast knows about. I'll search my history but it may be hard to find. Oh and I don't screw dogs. That's illegal ..and gross.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Abster

dammit I wish I could have saved that post it was just a few days ago and from a developer that every Mac enthusiast knows about. I'll search my history but it may be hard to find. Oh and I don't screw dogs. That's illegal ..and gross.

If you remember who it is, even without finding the post, you could mention it.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by melgross

If you remember who it is, even without finding the post, you could mention it.

Still can't find it ..just searched my RSS Google Reader feeds. I'll try my NetNewsWire later at home.

Here's one that surprised me.

http://lit-n-lat.blogspot.com/2007/0...ur-friend.html

Originally Posted by Dev of Scrivener

Well, if you've been reading my previous posts about Apple's tardiness in posting the 9a466 (or whatever it is) Leopard beta to developers who paid for ADC Select or Premiere membership, you'll know I'm not a happy bunny. WWDC attendees received that beta nearly three weeks ago now. And you know what? That beta is now available on torrent sites. Meaning that pirates out there are running a version of Leopard for which they have not paid, whilst legitimate law-abiding ADC Select members such as myself still have no access to that version of Leopard despite having paid Apple for the "latest" Leopard releases - in other words, we have paid for exactly that copy.
...

That stemmed from

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/06/12/devel...xclusive-beta/

You can call it whining or not. You can make excuses for Apple but frankly these guy and gal's livelyhood depends on efficiency and the least Apple could do is deliver seeds on time and make sure that they aren't behind WWDC patrons in access to materials.

You shouldn't see a seed on the torrent sites before you ADC account no?

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Still can't find it ..just searched my RSS Google Reader feeds. I'll try my NetNewsWire later at home.

Here's one that surprised me.

http://lit-n-lat.blogspot.com/2007/0...ur-friend.html



That stemmed from

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/06/12/devel...xclusive-beta/

You can call it whining or not. You can make excuses for Apple but frankly these guy and gal's livelyhood depends on efficiency and the least Apple could do is deliver seeds on time and make sure that they aren't behind WWDC patrons in access to materials.

You shouldn't see a seed on the torrent sites before you ADC account no?

So you are referencing something that supposedly occurred a couple of years ago. Perhaps this guy should re-read his membership. http://developer.apple.com/products/membership.html

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

So you are referencing something that supposedly occurred a couple of years ago. Perhaps this guy should re-read his membership. http://developer.apple.com/products/membership.html

Why the pushback? He develops an outstanding product that is Mac only. While it happened over two years ago it dovetails with what the developer that I just came across mirrored. They're tired of not getting the seeds and hearing about some large developers getting the seeds.

Feel free to grab your Apple pom poms but constructive criticism of Apple's Developer Program beneficial to us all since we Mac users enjoy the fruits of the developer's labor.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Why the pushback? He develops an outstanding product that is Mac only. While it happened over two years ago it dovetails with what the developer that I just came across mirrored. They're tired of not getting the seeds and hearing about some large developers getting the seeds.

Feel free to grab your Apple pom poms but constructive criticism of Apple's Developer Program beneficial to us all since we Mac users enjoy the fruits of the developer's labor.

And again, support your claims.

I am a member and I am developer and I don't want anything released until I am ready to do so. And until I do so, nobody benefits from the crap you throw.

[xwiredtva]

In light of this news that's bringing some down...

Read this... Then you'll get my punch line...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...creensavermode

... And mine keeps asking for a password upon awake...

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

And again, support your claims.

I am a member and I am developer and I don't want anything released until I am ready to do so. And until I do so, nobody benefits from the crap you throw.

So the developer of Scrivener is throwing crap because he vocalizes his frustration. I'm glad that you're happy with your situation but every developer has their wants and needs. If some are articulating that they aren't happy with the current ADC program that doesn't make their statement crap but it also doesn't mean that Apple's program is faulty. It's merely their opinion and they can choose to keep their $500 or send it to Apple. Since this is a forum discussion of said topic is warranted and dare I say encouraged there's really little reason for you to levy judgment but you may do what you want as you clearly seem to think the world revolves around your needs.

Originally Posted by AI

Apple this week has tapped a handful of choice developers to test third party application support against a new build of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard in a sign the software is nearing a stage of refinement and optimization.

Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

So the developer of Scrivener is throwing crap because he vocalizes his frustration. I'm glad that you're happy with your situation but every developer has their wants and needs. If some are articulating that they aren't happy with the current ADC program that doesn't make their statement crap but it also doesn't mean that Apple's program is faulty. It's merely their opinion and they can choose to keep their $500 or send it to Apple. Since this is a forum discussion of said topic is warranted and dare I say encouraged there's really little reason for you to levy judgment but you may do what you want as you clearly seem to think the world revolves around your needs.

Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.

Who said his statement was crap?

You are the one that is posting claims that you can not support. Until you do, it's crap.

[Marvin]

Originally Posted by iVlad

So that's how Micro$oft copies Apple. I always wondered how they see it first. This is how.

I don't think it was the beta they were referencing for Vista as the final versions of 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 came out during it's overdue period.

I think the area of beta testing is one area where Microsoft does a better job of developer relations. Microsoft even give downloadable public betas and their OS costs much more.

I guess if the OS is at a stage where low level drivers and system components need tested then I think it's right that they sort them out first. 3rd party developers don't need to test the system and probably shouldn't until the core OS is stable.

The ADC membership doesn't sound like it's worth it but early beta testing needs trusted developers, not just anyone with $500 a year to spend.

I can never remember the stages of an OS build but I don't think testing builds were released more than 4 months before the final. Obviously the developments will depend on the problems that arise but releases this early would indicate WWDC release at the latest if developments go without a hitch.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Still can't find it ..just searched my RSS Google Reader feeds. I'll try my NetNewsWire later at home.

Here's one that surprised me.

http://lit-n-lat.blogspot.com/2007/0...ur-friend.html



That stemmed from

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/06/12/devel...xclusive-beta/

You can call it whining or not. You can make excuses for Apple but frankly these guy and gal's livelyhood depends on efficiency and the least Apple could do is deliver seeds on time and make sure that they aren't behind WWDC patrons in access to materials.

You shouldn't see a seed on the torrent sites before you ADC account no?

I read it now. Well, I understand that some people will complain. But, still, considering the way most software is developed, I do think it is a bit of whining.

I'd be willing to bet that even if they got the software at the same time, their development schedule would be about the same.

Even the biggest developers, the ones who do get the betas first, lag in their releases for months after the OS come out.

We all know this!

I hate to say it, but many developers are like kids who just have to sleep overnight outside the Nintendo store to get the latest model a few days before everyone else.

I'm not even so sure that many of these small developers have the competence to deal with really buggy betas, which is what these select few big developers are given before everyone else.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Why the pushback? He develops an outstanding product that is Mac only. While it happened over two years ago it dovetails with what the developer that I just came across mirrored. They're tired of not getting the seeds and hearing about some large developers getting the seeds.

Feel free to grab your Apple pom poms but constructive criticism of Apple's Developer Program beneficial to us all since we Mac users enjoy the fruits of the developer's labor.

I'd like to see evidence that it would make a difference. We have none of that.

MS makes betas available to just about everyone, but software development doesn't seem to benefit. New programs, or upgrades, still take about the same time to come out after the OS is released as on the Mac platform. And they're just as buggy.

It just seems that Apple would rather clean things up more before having a more general release.

What's wrong with that? Some developers feel left out? Their feelings are hurt?

If they received these really buggy releases, they would be complaining about the state of beta releases from Apple instead.

Those who complain will always find something to complain about.

We see that here, with the same people over and again complaining about everything they can find to complain about.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Who said his statement was crap?

You are the one that is posting claims that you can not support. Until you do, it's crap.

It is what you say it is.

http://www.afp548.com/polls/index.ph...0928930&aid=-1

10 years ago ADC was worth every penny and the thought of NOT renewing your membership every year was unthinkable. Nowadays the responses you get from DTS typically consist of either links to public documentation you've already read, or statements of defeat such as "I can't tell you that." Since not even ADC members get access to GM releases before the consumer anymore, I've come to see it as rather pointless. If anyone at Apple has an answer they can share without getting in trouble, they'll usually do it on one of the completely free mailing lists anyone can join. Just beware that this open door policy lets address harvesters in as well, so it's best to sign up with a throwaway address you don't use for anything else.

Salient point

http://www.primatelabs.ca/blog/2007/10/adc-select/

Also, like other Mac developers, I’m annoyed that we weren’t given access to the final version of Leopard before it was released. While I’m fairly confident both Geekbench and Wiinote will work with the final version of Leopard, I’ve only been able to test them with the last pre-release version of Leopard. It’s entirely possible that either one (or both) will not work with the final version of Leopard.

Originally Posted by Marvin

I don't think it was the beta they were referencing for Vista as the final versions of 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 came out during it's overdue period.

I think the area of beta testing is one area where Microsoft does a better job of developer relations. Microsoft even give downloadable public betas and their OS costs much more.

I guess if the OS is at a stage where low level drivers and system components need tested then I think it's right that they sort them out first. 3rd party developers don't need to test the system and probably shouldn't until the core OS is stable.

The ADC membership doesn't sound like it's worth it but early beta testing needs trusted developers, not just anyone with $500 a year to spend.

I can never remember the stages of an OS build but I don't think testing builds were released more than 4 months before the final. Obviously the developments will depend on the problems that arise but releases this early would indicate WWDC release at the latest if developments go without a hitch.

Understood but what's it going to take financially to get some exemplary support? Should ADC Select be $999 a year $1999 a year?

While I will acknowledge that Apple has hit more triple here with ADC than striking out the question is "is there room for improvement?"

Large "trusted" developer are nice but when I look at the apps I rely on they come from rather small developers. Look at the good will Microsoft is getting with the public beta of Windows 7.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.

It could also be that Apple gives the developers they think have software that will be most affected by the changes Apple made in the beta the betas first, in addition to them being some of the biggest.

Do you think Apple is simply being prejudiced here? That makes no sense, as it would hurt Apple too.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I Look at the good will Microsoft is getting with the public beta of Windows 7.

Look at the goodwill they got from the public betas of Vista as well.

Did that help in any way?

No, it did not.

It still took months before drivers were available. It took months before games were as playable as they were on XP. It took months before many programs worked properly, or at all.

Even so, It needed an SP1 to fix many serious problems.

So other than feelings of how nice it was, what did it actually accomplish?

That's the real question.

Now, if Apple is not being helpful with developer questions, that's another problem entirely, and should be addressed as such.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by melgross

It could also be that Apple gives the developers they think have software that will be most affected by the changes Apple made in the beta the betas first, in addition to them being some of the biggest.

Do you think Apple is simply being prejudiced here? That makes no sense, as it would hurt Apple too.

No I don't think Apple's being pernicious here, more just the collateral damage that comes from their secrecy. Leopard's shipment was fast it was like GM is declared boxed and shipped. I think it took some devs by surprise

However if Apple ships Snow Leopard with fewer bugs then the outcry may not be so severe. I read that Will Shipley had to work around some gotchas in Leopard for Delicious Library so any maturity in SL that prevents some of these gotchas will go a long way.

[melgross]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

No I don't think Apple's being pernicious here, more just the collateral damage that comes from their secrecy. Leopard's shipment was fast it was like GM is declared boxed and shipped. I think it took some devs by surprise

However if Apple ships Snow Leopard with fewer bugs then the outcry may not be so severe. I read that Will Shipley had to work around some gotchas in Leopard for Delicious Library so any maturity in SL that prevents some of these gotchas will go a long way.

It was 10.4 that took everyone by surprise. That shipped months early, with lots of problems. From hindsight, it was obvious why that happened, but when it first did, it blindsided everyone, including people I know in Apple who usually know these things.

[JavaCowboy]

I'm not sure anybody has the answer to this question (short of violating NDAs), but I'll ask it anyway:

Is the latest build of Snow Leopard feature complete, or are there still unimplemented features or "one more thing" that Apple has up its sleeve?

[PXT]

Apple have said they want snow leopard to be faster and more stable than leopard. If I wanted stability I would want to properly fix the bugs reported by each stage of testers before moving onto the next.

Hopefully, when developers get hold of their copies, there will be stories from the developers of how this is the best advanced release ever and thank you apple for saving us the hassle of a buggy release.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by JavaCowboy

I'm not sure anybody has the answer to this question (short of violating NDAs), but I'll ask it anyway:

Is the latest build of Snow Leopard feature complete, or are there still unimplemented features or "one more thing" that Apple has up its sleeve?

Obviously, Apple would be the only one that could answer that.

[Xool]

The biggest unknown IMO is QuickTime, specifically QuickTime X. Apps are very dependent on QuickTime and I'd expect some issues to arise due to the major revision. TBD I suppose.

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.

Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.

$500 doesn't give you the level of interactivity with 10.6 that Premiere does, nor should it.

[mdriftmeyer]

Being as I used to maintain and with two other members pick the actual companies who received Pre-release builds of Openstep/WebObjects/EOF, etc., you need to realize that a complete history of interaction is always recorded into internal databases [Sybase and Oracle, at that time] as to which Developing Houses, Developers and Corporations actually test and interact with the internal OS teams.

You target the most active contributors first and once you are in release candidate stages, you then send it out to a broad tier to chase down and open up any showstoppers. If it is Golden Master/Release Final ready you can run another two week cycle to an even broader audience [especially outside the core markets] to target any other hidden errors.

If no further showstoppers are there, you stamp and release with any later discovered workarounds being published in release notes.

[ascii]

Originally Posted by JavaCowboy

Is the latest build of Snow Leopard feature complete, or are there still unimplemented features or "one more thing" that Apple has up its sleeve?

It's unlikely there's "One more thing." You can't play games like that with software because testing really is important. I'll wager that everything that will be in there already is, with the possible exception of cosmetic changes such as icons which don't require code changes.