Apple opens developer forums to Snow Leopard discussion

[AppleInsider]

Signaling an new open approach to its operating system development plans, Apple has announced new threads for discussing the forthcoming Mac OS X Snow Leopard operating system on the developer forums available to Apple Developer Connection Premier and Select members.

Availability of the new forums is a significant shift from its existing, highly restrictive policy that has in general prohibited all of its developers from talking about the features and technologies related to its unannounced operating system, even to other developers bound to the same Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Apple has recently relaxed its developer policy in connection with iPhone development, easing the paranoia that had kept book authors and teachers interested in sponsoring iPhone development classes on edge.

The new move to not just allow developers to share their ideas and experiences with each other, but to actually provide an official forum for discussing the features of the unreleased new operating system, comes as welcome news to companies who can both benefit from and contribute to the discussions about Apple's latest software.

The developer forums won't be available to the public, nor to student developers, but only to members of Apple's Premier and Select developer programs, who also have access to the developer seed releases. Apple describes the forums as being in beta, a curious concept given that the company has operated forums on other topics for many years.

In a mailing to its developer program members, Apple said the new developer forums will "provide a collaborative environment to post Mac OS X Snow Leopard development topics and questions for an open discussion with other Mac developers and Apple engineers."

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[hmurchison]

"open"?


Sure if you've got 500 dollars minimum. Microsoft is allowing people to download Beta and RC releases of Windows 7 to test it out. That's open.

I would expect Select and Premier developers to be able to discuss an OS they're supposed to have their applications ready for.

The secrecy thing is getting a bit old Apple.

[Dlux]

So what are the repercussions against someone copying the discussions and 'leaking' them to the general public? Seems like Pandora's Box to me.

Not that I support Apple's (in)famous secrecy either...

[addicted44]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

"open"?
Sure if you've got 500 dollars minimum. Microsoft is allowing people to download Beta and RC releases of Windows 7 to test it out. That's open.
.

This is less about secrecy (just because they are paying $500 does not make them less likely to release information) but more about reducing noise.

What is the purpose of a Beta? Its to improve a product before it is actually released. Unlike MS, Apple does not have unlimited engineering resources (don't forget how little money Apple makes from OS X, the S/W as compared to MS) and so restricting these forums to the "serious few" still gives them enough usage to find most problems, but greatly limits worthless feedback (FTFF!).

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by addicted44

This is less about secrecy (just because they are paying $500 does not make them less likely to release information) but more about reducing noise.

What is the purpose of a Beta? Its to improve a product before it is actually released. Unlike MS, Apple does not have unlimited engineering resources (don't forget how little money Apple makes from OS X, the S/W as compared to MS) and so restricting these forums to the "serious few" still gives them enough usage to find most problems, but greatly limits worthless feedback (FTFF!).

I wish this were the case. However, as good as Leopard is I believe it's pretty far from being a fantastic OS.

1. Applications stall too much and beach ball.
2. Contextual menus end up cluttered with stuff you don't want from 3rd parties
3. The UI is a bit cobbled together.
4. No decent notification system
5. No uninstaller
6. Niggling things like the OS forgetting finder window settings sometimes

Consumers simply want a better OS. The wow factor for OS is pretty much at its zenith. Apple needs to get the message that the whole "shhhhhhhh we're working on something weally seekrit" is pretty much played out.

Developers don't get to talk about the new OS so therefore consumers don't fully understand the changes and the ramifications of the new changes. Apple's milked this cow long enough.

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by Dlux

So what are the repercussions against someone copying the discussions and 'leaking' them to the general public? Seems like Pandora's Box to me.

Not that I support Apple's (in)famous secrecy either...

Loosing their privileges! And most possibly a law suit. In any event, I don't know of any developer that would put themselves in jeopardy by such illegal action.

As Apple has made it quite clear…"Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released."

[DoughBoy]

I know that Apple does dabble in open-source projects, like WebKit, but do you think that Apple would consider open-sourcing a few of its apps and/or technologies, like maybe Preview/PDFKit? Maybe Apple could test the developer reaction to see if there is any benefit. Heck, what about open-sourcing Calculator? LOL

[Abster2core]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I wish this were the case. However, as good as Leopard is I believe it's pretty far from being a fantastic OS.

1. Applications stall too much and beach ball.
2. Contextual menus end up cluttered with stuff you don't want from 3rd parties
3. The UI is a bit cobbled together.
4. No decent notification system
5. No uninstaller
6. Niggling things like the OS forgetting finder window settings sometimes

Consumers simply want a better OS. The wow factor for OS is pretty much at its zenith. Apple needs to get the message that the whole "shhhhhhhh we're working on something weally seekrit" is pretty much played out.

Developers don't get to talk about the new OS so therefore consumers don't fully understand the changes and the ramifications of the new changes. Apple's milked this cow long enough.

And you have come to your conclusions based on what?

As a developer, we don't gab about what we are doing or what or for whom we are testing. In fact we are very tight lipped, seldom participate in open conferences and share very little if any.

I would suggest that you know SFA about about what we or consumers really want.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

I would suggest that you know SFA about about what we or consumers really want.

Well then come to Seattle and kick my ass then man. If you can't do that then crawl back in your hole ...get to progamming and keep your suggestions to yourself. It's as simple as that.

[nace33]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Well then come to Seattle and kick my ass then man. If you can't do that then crawl back in your hole ...get to progamming and keep your suggestions to yourself. It's as simple as that.

By reducing your arguments to threats, you have exposed your limit on brain activity.

[azcodemonkey]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

I would suggest that you know SFA about about what we or consumers really want.

Why are you a developer if your end-user is marginalized? If you're writing solely for yourself, then it really shouldn't matter what an end-user would want, but why go off on someone, probably one of the said consumers, for expressing his or her opinion on the status quo?

[Dlux]

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Loosing [sic] their privileges! And most possibly a law suit. In any event, I don't know of any developer that would put themselves in jeopardy by such illegal action.

That much is a given. But copying discussion text (or even paraphrasing it) and then passing it through intermediary channels (often overseas) seems like it will be difficult to prevent, and the original leaker(s) may never get revealed. (Look how long 'Deep Throat' of Watergate fame kept his identity secret.)

I'm not endorsing or condemning this, but it seems that this is going to occur a lot more frequently now that the discussions between developers has opened up a bit. I have to assume that Apple understands this, and may feel the tradeoff - in their mind - is worth it.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by nace33

By reducing your arguments to threats, you have exposed your limit on brain activity.

That's false.

Fear is the best motivator ever created. The proverbial question is "is it better to be loved or feared?" and the answer is feared. It lasts longer.

Originally Posted by azcodemonkey

Why are you a developer if your end-user is marginalized? If you're writing solely for yourself, then it really shouldn't matter what an end-user would want, but why go off on someone, probably one of the said consumers, for expressing his or her opinion on the status quo?

He doesn't like me which is why he gave me the snarky response but you bring up a good point. The developer and end user always need to form a symbiotic relationship. Both are coming from different paradigms. Few are the people that can take what is essentially human unreadable code (for many), plug it into a IDE or application then send it to a compiler to spit out a working app and do it well. The mindset it must take to visualize and then complete even a fairly basic app is beyond many. However, the end user is golden for providing data about how they "expect" an app to work.

How many times have we Mac users had to go through this.

"ok to unmount that drive just drag it to the trash"

"but I don't want to delete my files!"

"oh no you won't it will just unmount the drive"

"well then why am I dragging it to the trash?"

As a Mac user we have learned the idiosyncrasies of our platform and we only relive them when we're teaching someone who has never used a computer before. You as developers have to work in a paradigm that is illogical from a human standpoint thus having a lot of contact with your end users is important for instilling that "human touch" back into your work.

I believe Apple has good focus groups and generally they hit with a high usability factor for their apps but how many times have we had to blast them over taking out functionality and replacing it with an inferior method (like the initial Stacks which didn't support hierarchical navigation)

[Quadra 610]

LOL at this thread.

Ah well . . . anyway, this idea from Apple seems alright for the time being. I've always been a proponent of their "secrecy" approach - good for not giving away your hand and killing the hype too early. It's great for buildup and keeps the most of the "beta tester" population (the kiddie part) away from the OS and cuts down on the whining.

But, having said that, this will be good for businesses and IT personnel who woud want to prepare the ground for some form of OS X deployment. At least, that's my assumption.

[parky]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

That's false.

Fear is the best motivator ever created. The proverbial question is "is it better to be loved or feared?" and the answer is feared. It lasts longer.

What a very sad individual you must be.

Fear is not the way forward.
We live in the bad world we do because of attitudes of selfish people like you.

[parky]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

"open"?


Sure if you've got 500 dollars minimum. Microsoft is allowing people to download Beta and RC releases of Windows 7 to test it out. That's open.

I would expect Select and Premier developers to be able to discuss an OS they're supposed to have their applications ready for.

The secrecy thing is getting a bit old Apple.

When you are running Apple you can do what you like, until then, leave it to the experts.

[BenRoethig]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

"open"?


Sure if you've got 500 dollars minimum. Microsoft is allowing people to download Beta and RC releases of Windows 7 to test it out. That's open.

I would expect Select and Premier developers to be able to discuss an OS they're supposed to have their applications ready for.

The secrecy thing is getting a bit old Apple.

Apple has done the beta thing before. They really haven't had any reason lately. None of the OSX division have been radically different and they haven't screwed it up like Microsoft did with Vista. Microsoft has 7 out there as a beta as a way to redeem their image.

[_Rick_V_]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I wish this were the case. However, as good as Leopard is I believe it's pretty far from being a fantastic OS.

1. Applications stall too much and beach ball.
2. Contextual menus end up cluttered with stuff you don't want from 3rd parties
3. The UI is a bit cobbled together.
4. No decent notification system
5. No uninstaller
6. Niggling things like the OS forgetting finder window settings sometimes

1. Apps stall: really?! I honestly never experience this, and I routinely use several Macs. Check out AppleJack, and run it in manual mode (not automatic, because in automatic mode it cannot clear caches in your user profile). I've recommended this to several friends after they've complained about similar problems, and all claim it turned their machine around.

That said, I think the OS needs to strive to eliminate "user-maintenance" issues. Mac is much better than Windows, in that regard, but not yet perfect.

2. Contextual Menus: Again, nothing here. Only "extra" contextual menu I have is what I intentionally installed. Makes me curious what you're installing that's also including this "extra".

3. Cobbled together UI: I agree with you here. I've argued for a looong time that Apple needs to make their UI consistent. Drives me crazy. I'm hoping Snow Leopard fixes that.

4. Notification: you mean like Growl? Having that built-in (so developers can count on it being there) would be cool.

5. Uninstaller: I disagree with you here. I see all those uninstaller utilities and don't get the point. The most a majority of apps leave behind is a .plist file and maybe some cache. Who cares? A much ado about nothing. It doesn't slow your machine down, and uses next-to-no-space. Windows on the other hand...

6. niggling things: Yeah agrre, there are always niggling things...

[rogue27]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

That's false.

Fear is the best motivator ever created. The proverbial question is "is it better to be loved or feared?" and the answer is feared. It lasts longer.

I really shouldn't get into this conversation, but I have to point out the obvious...

I don't think you actually scared anybody.



On topic: It's nice that Apple is loosening their restrictions. How that compares to the way MS develops their software is irrelevant. I just hope the finished product is fast, solid, and free of irritating quirks. I doubt that a public beta would be a means to achieving that end.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by parky

What a very sad individual you must be.

Fear is not the way forward.
We live in the bad world we do because of attitudes of selfish people like you.

When you are running Apple you can do what you like, until then, leave it to the experts.

Hey I only offered my opinon on the state of Apple's "open" attitude towards information about beta OS X versions. I think consumer opinion is a vital piece of information but they have their own views.

Without straying too far off topic parky can you honestly say that you follow the law to the letter because you feel it's the right thing to do morally or are you afraid of the resultant punative damages you may face by getting cited for an infraction. I believe humans want to follow free will but there is no universal free will and thus laws must be made and punishments must be levied if the laws are broken. I've seen studies that show babies win an innate fear of height (you know the one where they put babies on glass covered cubes and the babies tend to follow the cubes and avoid the gaps). Just falling once is enough to generate fear that causes a change in behavior. Fascinating stuff really.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by iStink

Generally for something like this, the more testers there are, the better. If Apple can make money off it, they will do so, plain and simple.

If your testers are actually testing. But if you make it public, you don't get quality testing. You get people who simply can't wait for release date, and if they find a bug, they often don't provide useful information. Just saying "it's broke" doesn't help much.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

That's false.

Fear is the best motivator ever created. The proverbial question is "is it better to be loved or feared?" and the answer is feared. It lasts longer.

Lasting fear is a desirable goal? The question is why do you want to be feared? What end goal are you trying to reach? I'd rather be liked for a short while than feared for longer. Being liked brings respect and friendship. Being feared brings sycophants and avoidance by the rest.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

"open"?


Sure if you've got 500 dollars minimum. Microsoft is allowing people to download Beta and RC releases of Windows 7 to test it out. That's open.

I would expect Select and Premier developers to be able to discuss an OS they're supposed to have their applications ready for.

The secrecy thing is getting a bit old Apple.

The strategies are very different between the two companies. MS has to give out Win7 RC1 right now simply because it fracked up Vista so much. People that have never used Vista say that Vista sucks, even though SP1 fixed a great of the initial issues. Win7 is the same kernel, only slightly updated over Vista, but needs a new name because MS made too many mistakes and the bad taste has stuck. If MS didn't give it out then they wouldn't be able to get the word out sufficiently that Windows is good again.

It's just a marketing strategy, and one that is working for both companies. Apple is much more exciting (and nerve racking) because it is secretive. This is what any company that doesn't have excessive marketshare should do as it creates buzz and the non-public secrets keep massive competitors from trumping their ideas too quickly. MS, on the other hand, has a dominate OS marketshare and so it's best move is to convince people that they have this and that in the works. Whether by a formal press release or a rumour spread through anonymous [but reliable sources close to the company]. That tactic keeps consumers in limbo and may deter less focused competitors from going a road that MS' will dominate.

As Apple gets bigger they will have to let go of the secrets more. They will also have to stagger their releases of HW and SW more. I think they learned a hard lesson last year with the iPhone 3G, iPhone OS v2.0, MobileMe and App Store releases all together. I still people say that MobileMe doesn't work despite working since after the first weekend and the only major issue was the amount of people trying to connect to the service that was pushed with new iPhone sales and was a free, open 60-day trial. Since then, they've staggered releases quite nicely.


PS: AnandTech has a pretty nice review of Windows 7.

• http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=3557

[columbus]

Originally Posted by DoughBoy

I know that Apple does dabble in open-source projects, like WebKit, but do you think that Apple would consider open-sourcing a few of its apps and/or technologies, like maybe Preview/PDFKit? Maybe Apple could test the developer reaction to see if there is any benefit. Heck, what about open-sourcing Calculator? LOL

Chess is open source:

http://www.opensource.apple.com/sour...Chess-109.0.3/

[bloggerblog]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

That's false.

Fear is the best motivator ever created. The proverbial question is "is it better to be loved or feared?" and the answer is feared. It lasts longer.

silly rabbit, fear tactics are for losers.
besides your comment was more amusing and childish than fearing.

[wizard69]

While I'm happy Apple is doing more in this regard I expect a lot more openess. The fact of the matter is that Apples poor software quality of the last year or two in my mind is directly related to being very closed to outside testing of new software releases. That is testing before being released to the general public. On the negative side access should be open to all developers.

Why all developers, simple actually to catch as many bugs as possible. Let's face it the small time developer is often the one writing unique apps that stress an API in unusal ways. The other thing that Apple would get from maximizing the number of developers involved is a sense of completeness in the APIs. I know an API has to be finite but yet I'm often surprised that Apple makes some things so difficult for developers.

In any event I suspect that the limited access here is to specifically limit information inflow to an amount Apple can easily handle. The reality is that we can see a lot of stress in Apples ability to handle developers in it's app store for iPhone. In many ways they are suffering significant growing pains. So hopefully this is just an incremental improvement that will eventually be reachable by the entire development community.


Dave

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by _Rick_V_

5. Uninstaller: I disagree with you here. I see all those uninstaller utilities and don't get the point. The most a majority of apps leave behind is a .plist file and maybe some cache. Who cares? A much ado about nothing. It doesn't slow your machine down, and uses next-to-no-space. Windows on the other hand...

I do think there should be an uninstaller Preference Pane in System Preferences. All it would have to do is check some very simple files in the app to find out the file in the Preferences and Application Support files (and where ever else) in Library.

For apps that use a proper install you can choose Show Files from the Menu Bar to see where files are being installed. Since these might get written to and accessed in way that the app will not know about the installer could write to the Uninstaller PrefPane DB about the installation.

Mac users do tend to be more anal about their computer's files, which is probably due to Mac users being more technically savvy than the average Windows user, so I can see how a proper, native installer app would be nice. Sure, you can just delete the app from the Applications folder, but it's not pretty when you access your Library and see remnants of apps that you haven't used, seen or heard about for several years.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by BenRoethig

Apple has done the beta thing before. They really haven't had any reason lately. None of the OSX division have been radically different and they haven't screwed it up like Microsoft did with Vista. Microsoft has 7 out there as a beta as a way to redeem their image.

Ben ..I don't really think Apple needs a public beta (though it would be fun) but I do think developers need a more loose leash to discuss new OS like Snow Leopard. So I'll consider this a win though if Apple's gonna give an inch ..may as well try to take a mile

Originally Posted by _Rick_V_

1. Apps stall: really?! I honestly never experience this, and I routinely use several Macs.

2. Contextual Menus: Again, nothing here. Only "extra" contextual menu I have is what I intentionally installed. Makes me curious what you're installing that's also including this "extra".

3. Cobbled together UI: I agree with you here. I've argued for a looong time that Apple needs to make their UI consistent. Drives me crazy. I'm hoping Snow Leopard fixes that.

4. Notification: you mean like Growl? Having that built-in (so developers can count on it being there) would be cool.

5. Uninstaller: I disagree with you here...
6. niggling things: Yeah agrre, there are always niggling things...

Rick ..first of welcome to the boards.

I do have a lowly 1.66 Mac mini so if I had 2.4Ghz or something I probably wouldn't beach ball as much plus I figure I need a faster HDD too. So I can easily chalk that one up to my own experience with basically the second slowest Intel Mac that Apple has made processor wise.

+1 on the user maintainence. I'm always amazed that I can get out of some glitches by repairing permissions but that seems soo TECHY.

On CM- I like to installe a lot of productivity apps and I notice sometimes they'll install CM stuff (like Evernote, ABFR, DEVONthink etc). I like having this functionality but at the bottom of most CM panels I'd like to see a link for modifying the order of the CM modules. That way I can set up my favorites at the top. Tweaky? Yes but it beats cluttering things up.

I'm totally pumped about Snow Leopard and the greedy person in me wants all the info. Hey i'm a fan...I'm not supposed to be patient.
As for the UI I've got a sneaking suspicion that Apple is going to "unify" things at WWDC and not before. Of course my suspicion likely stems from the multiple AI articles on "Marble" lol.

I use Growl and love it. Though I wish Apple would either buy them out and integrate it into the system (Xcode)

Uninstaller- Don't you find a bunch of folders left over in Application Support and other areas? I'll have look at how much junk is left over. I use App Zapper but I may move to Clean App which has an agent that runs and tracks down more stuff.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I'm totally pumped about Snow Leopard and the greedy person in me wants all the info. Hey i'm a fan...I'm not supposed to be patient.
As for the UI I've got a sneaking suspicion that Apple is going to "unify" things at WWDC and not before. Of course my suspicion likely stems from the multiple AI articles on "Marble"

At this point it's pretty clear that Apple isn't going to change the UI until WWDC. I'm guessing Jobs will make an appearance, too. There are just too many big things happening for him not to show up. I do hope that actually unify the look of the apps this time.

Uninstaller- Don't you find a bunch of folders left over in Application Support and other areas? I'll have look at how much junk is left over. I use App Zapper but I may move to Clean App which has an agent that runs and tracks down more stuff.

I don't think it would be hard to make an app or a preference pane, as I stated above, and to have Xcode build in a simple process that auto-saves the different support file locations into a list so the Unistaller can get them easily. Also, being able to instruct a novice user to the Unistaller in the Prference Pane to delete a damaged Plist file that is causing an app to crash is much easier than walking them through ~/Library/Preferences and having them look for an app titles com.developer_name.something.et_cetera.plist. It's just not very Mac-like.

PS: I'd also like a less "scary" disc copying app for Mac OS X. The current method of the Finder to copy to the HDD into a burn folder you create and then burn, or to use Disk Utility is not very mac-like either. WIndows has had a one-button burn since XP.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by bloggerblog

silly rabbit, fear tactics are for losers.
besides your comment was more amusing and childish than fearing.

Actually I stole that from this guy a long time ago. In Seattle during the summer we have Seafair. The hydroplanes come and race on the lake and everyone comes down to stake out their territory. Well i'm down there with my family and we got a little section for our needs. Over yonder there's this guy and he's taken like a 20x20 section and staked it out with pegs and rope. Upset, this other guys says "you got enough space pal" and they jaw at each other for a bit and finally the guy taking the space says "man if you don't like it just kick my ass". End of discussion, because really is the issue so important that you have to sit there an argue? Often it's not. I don't view it as a threat but rather a reframing of the debate. If i've offended you so egregiously then kick my ass. Otherwise we can just disagree and hopefully dispense with the snarky comments and sniping.

I respect AbsterCore but telling me that I don't know what consumers want is silly when i've been in sales or training for the majority of my career. It's an area I feel comfortable in.

Apple does a good job with their OS and applications from a usability standpoint so they are getting good info from someone but I certainly like them getting developers together to discuss things more. I do agree with Abster that developers tend to be lone wolfs or run in small packs though fostering more sharing only benefits the platform.

[Quantz]

Originally Posted by addicted44

This is less about secrecy (just because they are paying $500 does not make them less likely to release information) but more about reducing noise.

What is the purpose of a Beta? Its to improve a product before it is actually released. Unlike MS, Apple does not have unlimited engineering resources (don't forget how little money Apple makes from OS X, the S/W as compared to MS) and so restricting these forums to the "serious few" still gives them enough usage to find most problems, but greatly limits worthless feedback (FTFF!).

Following your rationale, one remains dumbfounded by the poor maintenance and overall quality of M$oft, regarding the enormous amount of money the made and continue, alas, to make with lousy
products, and by the outstanding quality of Apple products developed with so much less money.

But suffice to look and compare the aspects of MM. Jobs and Ballmer to understand the difference of brain power between the two companies.

[wbrasington]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I do have a lowly 1.66 Mac mini......

You have no place to complain about how your OS is running.
I was laughing at you when you said you wanted people to fear you.
After finding out what hardware you run and have the nads to complain...
.....well you really are scary.

[Fast Fred 1]

Originally Posted by parky

What a very sad individual you must be.

Fear is not the way forward.
We live in the bad world we do because of attitudes of selfish people like you.

Fear isn't real ...... it's an elusion that's perceived.

[Virgil-TB2]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Hey I only offered my opinon on the state of Apple's "open" attitude towards information about beta OS X versions. I think consumer opinion is a vital piece of information but they have their own views.

Without straying too far off topic parky can you honestly say that you follow the law to the letter because you feel it's the right thing to do morally or are you afraid of the resultant punative damages you may face by getting cited for an infraction. I believe humans want to follow free will but there is no universal free will and thus laws must be made and punishments must be levied if the laws are broken. I've seen studies that show babies win an innate fear of height (you know the one where they put babies on glass covered cubes and the babies tend to follow the cubes and avoid the gaps). Just falling once is enough to generate fear that causes a change in behavior. Fascinating stuff really.

I think you're really going too far here and your whole argument is in danger of collapsing.

I can't speak for parky, but I can honestly say that personally, I "do the right thing" just because it's the right thing, not because of any fear of retribution. The right thing to do is almost always the logical thing to do as well, so it's not necessarily even tied to a person's emotions or religious beliefs. Historically, selfishness always ends in a net negative for the majority of the people involved although it often takes a lot of life lessons for the average individual to internalise that fact.

In the child example, he/she is simply learning that falling is bad, and it's a very poor example for arguing that fear is basic to that kind of learning. If the child is fearful of falling in the first place, then they would never learn the lesson. A child has to be fearless initially and then have the experience of falling at least once. Having learned the lesson of falling one time, it's not fear that motivates them to avoid the edge of a precipice, but simply common sense and logic.

Fear is central to some kinds of rote conditioning, but not learning per se, and certainly not to law or morality.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by wbrasington

You have no place to complain about how your OS is running.
I was laughing at you when you said you wanted people to fear you.
After finding out what hardware you run and have the nads to complain...
.....well you really are scary.

Laughing at me? That must make you feel just peachy doesn't it?

Hey now ...don't talk about my mini. I love my mini. I did buy a C2D 2Ghz proc to put in it but I need to upgrade to a 7200rpm drive as well. But the thing holding me back......fear. Go figure

But let's steer this back on topic a bit. wbrasignton..how "open" should Apple be regarding their beta OS? Could we actually be beyond the point of the "seekrit" feature that leaves us all gobsmacked?

I mean Core Animation is nice but it's not something I simply couldn't compute without.
I'm hoping that Grand Central and OpenCL can be leveraged well.

I'd like to see Apple open up their Mac OS X beta process and keep the mobile stuff secret. The desktop now is just another peer on the network. We've quickly moving to mobile devices being the device we use 16 hrs a day with the desktop/laptop there for the number crunching and in a way home DataCenter.

[solipsism]

Back on track...

This developer forum will hopefully produce a lot more juicy info about the interworkings of Snow Leopard than otherwise could be achieved through a scattered developer platform. I don't even know if Grand Central and/or OpenCL have been integrated into SL yet.

[Virgil-TB2]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

... Upset, this other guys says "you got enough space pal" and they jaw at each other for a bit and finally the guy taking the space says "man if you don't like it just kick my ass". End of discussion, because really is the issue so important that you have to sit there an argue? Often it's not. I don't view it as a threat but rather a reframing of the debate. If i've offended you so egregiously then kick my ass. Otherwise we can just disagree and hopefully dispense with the snarky comments and sniping. ...

Man, this is just pathological.


You seriously think that escalating every disagreement to fisticuffs is a logical solution to life's problems?

I guess that means that many women, weak men, invalids, children and pretty much anyone but a big muscled idiot who's willing to fight over nothing are out of luck in general? What a world it would be if we all thought that way. I pity your children.

What if the guy kicking your ass pulls a gun? I guess the answer then is the guy with the biggest gun wins? The more one extrapolates this little philosophy of yours the stupider and nastier it gets.

I generally like some of your comments on this list and respect some of the things you say, but this is just nutty. Methinks you revealed far too much of yourself here. I'll never be able to read you the same way again.

[lakorai]

My biggest suggestion is to overall Software Update Server for OSX Server. IT SUCKS BALLS compared to WSUS for Windows Server. You have to perform three distinct steps to get it setup right, it's buggy and it is much more difficult to get running than WSUS.

It needs reporting, it needs the ability to see downloading progress from Apple, it needs basically all the features of WSUS. I shouldn't have to use SUS, and ARD AND have to modify the plist manually on the target machines to check and install updates on the machines remotely.

Add some functionality of SAMBA 3.0 as well so OSX Server can FINALLY be seen as a Active Directory server rather than an NT 4.0 server by Windows Clients. SAMBA 3.0 adds Windows 2000 Server level functionality.

Add true enterprise capability to Open Directory, like high level fail-over redundancy. OD is still far behind AD in terms of Enterprise functionality.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

You seriously think that escalating every disagreement to fisticuffs is a logical solution to life's problems?

I found a pic of Hmurchison (here) which explains things. j/k H, don't beat me up.

[Quadra 610]

Originally Posted by BenRoethig

Apple has done the beta thing before. They really haven't had any reason lately. None of the OSX division have been radically different and they haven't screwed it up like Microsoft did with Vista. Microsoft has 7 out there as a beta as a way to redeem their image.

Agreed. Apple's methods have been quite successful so far.