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#1 |
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Kasper's Automated Slave
Join Date: Nov 1997
Posts: 6,171
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Apple's future iPhones may leverage ARM's v7 Cortex designs
With Apple's first proprietary system-on-a-chip designs still rumored to be under active development, the iPhone maker may turn to ARM's standard v7 Cortex designs for multi-touch devices it plans to launch this year before building off the platform next year.
A recent job posting by Apple dug up by MacRumors seeks and iPhone developer with extensive knowledge of ARM's embedded processors, including their NEON vector unit. As the rumor site points out, NEON is an extended instruction set similar to Intel's SSE or PowerPC's AltiVec which can accelerate multimedia applications. It's also said to be the marketing term for the most recent version of those extensions specifically for the ARMv7 Cortex processor, which is the successor to the ARMv6 chip currently employed in the second-generation of both the iPhone and iPod touch. One theory behind Apple's apparent interest in NEON is that the extensions may help facilitate a number of multimedia-intensive operations due to start turning up in the iPhone this year, such as video recording, video processing, and rudimentary video editing. Recently, the Wall Street Journal cited people familiar with Apple's ongoing efforts to develop its own embedded processors as saying those designs are unlikely to materialize until sometime next year. Still, mounting evidence suggest that this year's iPhone and iPod touch will sport a materially distinct architecture from their predecessors. Given that Apple's latest job listing is dated this month and third-generation iPhones are already believed to be nearing production, it's possible the company's plan is to adopt Cortex chips based off ARM's reference designs this year, before making its own proprietary additions to those schematics for devices that will launch next year. |
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#2 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 333
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First post
![]() Ok, on a serious note... As they say to the end of the article - it isn't likely that the new iPhone will have this technology. Still... its feasible, considering the turnover time of the iPod touch, that they may be able to pioneer this technology in that. After all, the first iPod Touch was an afterthought after the iPhone's success was it not, with a very short run-up time? Also considering the rampup of CPU in the iPod Touch, and Nike + inclusion, perhaps we are seeing a trend where the iPod touch will start as more of a "road - test" of technologies that will make their way into the iPhone, but tested on a simpler platform in the iPod - a platform that specifically lacks other more phone-relevant technologies, like GPS and cellular radios & basebands, and also lacks many of the hardware-specific software complexities of the iPhone. Last edited by PG4G; 05-21-2009 at 01:32 PM.. |
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#3 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8,461
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Second post, but this time for a reason.
![]() Spelling error: "turing up in the iPhone"...
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground."
—Thomas Jefferson Proud AAPL stock owner. |
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#4 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 104
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Why isn't it more likely that this NEON would end up in the itablet people keep talking about? They've been working on that for quite some time, and I'm thinking that Munster's prediction of late 2010 is probably going to be a full swing that follows some slow pitch we're going to get shortly.
That's right, I'm predicting multiple devices... |
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#5 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,243
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Quote:
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#6 |
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Global Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 10,465
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I don't believe anyone that says they've heard word of a device that's going to ship in 18 months. I don't believe substantive leaks happen at that early a stage in a product's development cycle.
I do believe Apple would be looking at Cortex chips for a beefier ARM based product due to ship this year. This would allow them to lead right into their own custom designs in 2010 with version 2 product. Right now off the shelf ARM parts are fine and give Apple time to complete their design process with PA Semi. As for the iPhone this year would appear to be handled by a faster ARM 6 product, faster Imagination graphics and updated wireless product and other tech. A driver for faster Cortex processing would, IMO, be driven by HD video out options and more NAND memory which would allow for larger phones for video recording/playback. |
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#7 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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Quote:
I would not be surprised is the upcoming event also showed some new HW attachments for these handhelds. Once the D-pads comes I think we’ll see an even bigger congregation of major game developers working their way on iPhone OS X.
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
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#8 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 677
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Quote:
Thus, I believe these June-July iPhones will already use the Cortex v7 chips.
"you will know the truth, and the truth will
set you free." |
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#9 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 43
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Quote:
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#10 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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Quote:
2) Any chance that they could use Cortex-A9 or some other chip instead? 3) Why do you think it’ll be PowerVR over Nvidia’s Tegra? PS: Welcome to the AI forums and keep up the informative posts.
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
Last edited by solipsism; 05-21-2009 at 02:59 PM.. |
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#11 |
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Global Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 10,465
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Apple buys 3.6% of Imagination
The Tegra is a nice chip but Apple has been investing in Imagination (who also was on the steering group for OpenCL) |
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#12 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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Quote:
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
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#13 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 43
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Quote:
Good question on the A9. The design was made available in Oct 07 and it is normally 2 years before it would appear in an end user device. Apple bought PA Semi in April 08 which would have given them about a year of design time assuming the production for Iphone 3rd version was in the April 09 for the first run and then May for the main run. This would allow test/assembly for a late June launch. The timeline for a A9 would be very aggressive, but since Apple controls the design they could probably trim a couple months from the normal timeline because they don't have all the back and forth when dealing with an external customer and no need to market ect. I would love to see the A9 as it would tie in nicely with the Snow Leopard Open CL and Grand Central Work. Last edited by pats; 05-21-2009 at 03:31 PM.. |
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#14 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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Anyone have any ideas what Apple wanted with PA Semi? Surely, the most common answer is using their staff’s ARM knowledge to create better chips with ARM CPUs, but what specifically could they do with it that isn’t already done? Make it considerably smaller and more compact, like Apple’s Mac MoBos?
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
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#15 | |
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Global Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 10,465
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Quote:
Custom design is nice but the expense of chip design pretty much means a custom design has got to be significantly better than "off the shelf" Is Apple going to be able to add value features that no one else can ape (albeit at lower quality) with turnkey SoC? I know not enough about design nor can I even postulate on what unique features Apple could add. I guess that's what is going to make the mobile market for Apple exciting again. We're back to that "anything can happen" with Apple products. Let the speculation begin! |
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#16 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 43
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Quote:
The PA6T processor core The CONEXIUM interchange The ENVOI I/O system and offload engines Moreover, each element can be scaled in a variety of dimensions to accommodate various markets and price points. |
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#17 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sauk Centre, MN
Posts: 138
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surprise
I'm starting to think with all the clamoring about what the iPhone (software) can and can not do. That maybe it's been a big blinder to the HW side of things. The thing about it is, it could just get faster. You know, like computers, we don't worry about software, we want faster processors, more ram, faster buss speeds, etc. Also, with the iPhone being how old now, 4? I'm sure even battery tech as improved so much that they could boost speed above 800mhz and see no significant loss in battery usage. That would make for some much more powerful apps. You know someday I'll have CAD software for my iPod
I'm just hoping. Because really the software doesn't matter, there's an app store. I'm sure if apple doesn't release it, some third party will find a way. BTW if we all use the same app store account only one of us would have to buy the apps J/K |
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#18 | |
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Global Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 10,465
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Quote:
Many of Apple's current non Macintosh products can be run using their own chip design to help amortize the cost of development and add features. I expect an Apple to field a storage device or home server appliance eventually. Today we see NAS powered by Freescale, ARM and Atom chips deliver great performance for the home. I see an Apple designed chip being used here effectively as well. |
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#19 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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Quote:
There is newer battery tech out but I am not sure how well tested it is, the Lithium Polymer Ion batteries are still very common for these devices. I hope they do use a better battery tech but I’m not expecting it.
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
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#20 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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I see a higher consumer market for a home NAS than I do for a tablet device. A real NAS from Apple would be great.
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
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#21 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 43
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Quote:
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#22 | ||
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 43
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Quote:
Quote:
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#23 | |
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Global Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 10,465
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Quote:
If they are going to truly use the Broadcom Wifi/BT/FM Transmit chip they've probably eliminated 2 seperate chips at least that managed their own power. |
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#24 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: methane seas of neptune
Posts: 1,493
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congrads to all here.no fighting .no techstud ,just a great chip read .
my 2 cents apple will have with PA semi there own chips which makes the others guys un able to copy apple so easy. peace 9 .
Change your company's name. Not that big of a deal.
The Beatles . |
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#25 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 333
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Don't say the name - it just attracts him...
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#26 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 48
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Quote:
For those of us with short attention spans it is absolutely imperative we
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#27 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: methane seas of neptune
Posts: 1,493
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Change your company's name. Not that big of a deal.
The Beatles . |
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#28 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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Is he Beetlejuice?
![]() it is complex, but you'll pick it up in no time. There are a lot mire technical forums around but I find I learn more here than the others because of the average forum member's knowledge and demeanor.
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
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#29 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northwest
Posts: 2,698
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Wrong: Try the ARMCortex-A9-MPCore which has NEON
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#30 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 310
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I'm keeping my heavy-duty fly-swatter on hand and fully coiled ready to smack.
![]() Apple's doing some serious investment in the chip design area. IMHO, I think we won't see any fruit from this labor at least until mid-2010. Whether this is for the iPhone or some expanded device like a tablet, Apple skunkworks I'm sure will come up with some interesting devices and options! This is a good R&D investment of that $25b-$29b bank account. |
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#31 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Boise, ID among others
Posts: 529
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Some info:
The Cortex-A8 is nearly TWICE as fast as the ARM11 core at the same clock speed, and is usually clocked between 600mhz and 1000mhz. The Cortex-A8 core is used as the primary core in T.I.'s OMAP3xxx series (as used in the Palm Pre) and Qualcomm's Snapdragon platform. There are currently no shipping smartphones using the new Cortex series processors. The next iPhone will likely use a chip based on the ARM Cortex-A8 core. Chips based on the multi-core capable (and out-of-order processing) Cortex-A9 will not be ready until next year at the earliest. Quote:
All of the mainstream Texas instruments, Qualcomm, etc system-on-a-chips intended for smartphones offload video processing to dedicated video encode/decode logic and/or high performance DSPs and have dedicated GPUs for graphics acceleration. These are far more efficient at their respective tasks than using the SIMD units on the ARM, and this is how the current iPhone works. Lower end applications and phones may use solely the ARM core SIMD units to do multimedia tasks. |
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#32 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Ansible
Posts: 11,913
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Edit: Pipped by Winterspan.
Do your part to clean up AppleInsider forums: User CP » Edit Ignore List » Teckstud
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#33 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 331
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IIRC, the first ARM v7 phone has just been released in the UK.
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#34 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: nyc
Posts: 130
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Quote:
The world belongs to who wants it , now who deserves it.
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#35 | ||
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10
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The Cortex-A8 runs at 768 MHz. Slide 21 here
Quote:
Strangely, the 3rd slide from here says that ARM received money from Apple early on..... Interesting, I didnt know that ![]() If someone is bored enough and wants to read about the entire ARM achitecture across their processors (including ARM8 from slides 58-60)................. Quote:
--
There is no growth in the comfort zone and no comfort in the growth zone. Last edited by villageindian; 05-22-2009 at 07:17 AM.. |
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#36 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 333
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#37 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 333
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Personally I think that we think of the iPhone and iPod touch much too much like iPods - something that will change often visually depending on the trends that are set by society.
The iPod has evolved throughout the years from a brick to the clean, sophisticated look it now sports - but didn't it always seem clean and sophisticated? Stylistic trends change, and that seems to drive iPod development and changes far more than it does to Macs and other PC's. Take for example the MacBook Pro. In the time it took them to make 6 major generations of the iPod (forgetting the photo and 5.5g video), 4 of the iPod nano, 2 of the mini, 2 of the shuffle and two of the touch, the MacBook Pro moved from the PowerBook to the MacBook line, but has looked almost identical, until the Unibody event late last year. That was years where the Mac barely changed, but a stylistic accessory - perhaps due to its non-computer nature - changed dramatically. I've heard many people cry "but the iPhone isn't a computer" - perhaps from a development perspective we should be looking at the iPhone as a computer. Maybe it doesn't have user-configurable RAM, but it sports a computer OS, with computer level restraints. In the last 2 years, we've seen extremely little difference in the 4 iterations of Touch devices (2 iPhones, 2 iPod Touches), and if anything the lines between the two are becoming thinner from a looks perspective, and a features perspective (with bluetooth, speaker, side volume switches etc). So when we theorize about where the next lot of devices are going, perhaps we should look at what is important from a computer perspective, and not from a "wow thats different" looks perspective. That may include CPU and GPU bumps, RAM increases, and screen tech. BTW, I'm glad to see the focus of this thread has remained on the iPhone's internal specs, and hope that this is a sign of things to come. |
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#38 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London UK
Posts: 23
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'Strangely, the 3rd slide from here says that ARM received money from Apple early on..... Interesting, I didnt know that'
Yes that is correct Arm became 'Advanced RISC Machines' when Apple financed it late 80s so that it could become an independent company. Prior to that it had been 'Acorn RISC Machines' effectively the research labs of Acorn (of BBC computer fame) a prime British personal computer maker of the 80s which developed the technology partly from work carried out at Manchester University. Apple wanted it primarily for use in the Newton. In fact it was not that many years ago that Apple sold its remaining shares in the company. |
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#39 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Currently in Switzerland
Posts: 86
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