Intel deal to buy Wind River may pit it against Apple's iPhone team

[AppleInsider]

An Intel move to buy mobile software experts Wind River Systems could do more than just give the chip maker a leg up in handheld devices; it could also spark more direct competition between Apple and Intel.

The mutually-agreed deal, worth about $884 million, should finalize in the summer and is directly related to fostering Intel's "mobile device capabilities" in the future.

What Wind River's role will be once it's there isn't detailed at this early point in time, but Intel is blunt in stating that most of its ambitions with the buyout involve portable home electronics, ranging from smartphones through to mobile Internet devices (MIDs) that straddle the line between notebooks and handhelds.

The expansion is poised to help Intel's ultra-mobile processor business and, particularly, the software that drives it. The Santa Clara, Calif.-based company already has a complete mobile operating system in Moblin Linux but will gain extra depth through Wind River's deeper knowledge of embedded operating systems. Wind River is best known for developing very small, efficient platforms like VxWorks and Wind River Linux that can operate in-car electronics or other devices that depend on very fast, real-time updating.

In any circumstance, the move has Intel moving in a different path but, potentially, towards the same goal as its computer processor partner Apple. The former already has a variant of its Atom processor in development, codenamed Moorestown, that would be small enough to be stuffed into MIDs and smartphones and would be aided by further refined software from Wind River. Apple, meanwhile, has already established OS X iPhone but has clearly signaled an intent to make its own mobile device processors, which could surface as early as next year.

And though the two are closely linked in the full-size computing realm, where Apple has regularly received processors first or else received special editions that don't exist elsewhere, tensions have already manifested themselves in the handheld arena. An Intel vice president publicly criticized Apple's choice of ARM for the iPhone's processor architecture late last year and said that the current and future cellphones capable of "full" Internet features as they wouldn't have Intel's x86 processors. Intel later backtracked from the statement but nonetheless made it evident that the company would go its own route whether or not Apple was ready to play along.

[DHKOsta]

Good. With the "Pre-flop" imminent, the iPhone could use some competition.

It'll be fun to see what turns up on the "River."

[Hattig]

This is more about establishing their ARM competitors in the future than anything to do with Apple.

ARM was clearly the correct choice for the iPhone or it wouldn't have been released yet, wouldn't be released for another year, and let us be honest, it wouldn't be out until 2013 when Intel actually had a low-power SoC of the small size with all the functions and RAM on it like Apple used in 2007.

That's probably around 200 million iPhone sales that Intel thinks Apple should have skipped!

[Virgil-TB2]

Originally Posted by AppleInsider

An Intel move to buy mobile software experts Wind River Systems ...

This smacks of desperation, stupidity, or both combined.

Stupidity in that to go into device manufacture and software design is just nutty for a chip maker, or desperation in that to buy a mobile software operation just to make sure that *someone* is coding for your chips is indeed a desperate move.

[SpamSandwich]

Competition is always good. Let the insanity begin!

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

This smacks of desperation, stupidity, or both combined.

Stupidity in that to go into device manufacture and software design is just nutty for a chip maker, or desperation in that to buy a mobile software operation just to make sure that *someone* is coding for your chips is indeed a desperate move.

No it isn't. Its a very shrewd move on their part, IMO.

They know they need a lightweight efficient SoC design to compete in mobile devices in the future. Instead of relying on others, such as MS, to develop the software they're taking matters into their own hands.

You do know the Wind River is the undisputed leader in developing SW for embedded systems, right? They didn't buy a bozo operation.

[aplnub]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

This smacks of desperation, stupidity, or both combined.

Stupidity in that to go into device manufacture and software design is just nutty for a chip maker, or desperation in that to buy a mobile software operation just to make sure that *someone* is coding for your chips is indeed a desperate move.

When spending 0.8 Billion dollars, people tend to make rational, long-term decisions.

[Virgil-TB2]

Originally Posted by backtomac

No it isn't. Its a very shrewd move on their part, IMO.

They know they need a lightweight efficient SoC design to compete in mobile devices in the future. Instead of relying on others, such as MS, to develop the software they're taking matters into their own hands.

You do know the Wind River is the undisputed leader in developing SW for embedded systems, right? They didn't buy a bozo operation.

Well that makes sense. I spoke too soon.

The article makes it sound like they are just another mobile software developer or a developer of mobile software applications. SoC is a different story altogether.

If there is somewhere in the article that actually mentions this, I missed it but in my defence I think this is YAPWAFAI (yet another poorly worded article from Apple Insider)

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

Well that makes sense. I spoke too soon.

The article makes it sound like they are just another mobile software developer or a developer of mobile software applications. SoC is a different story altogether.

If there is somewhere in the article that actually mentions this, I missed it but in my defence I think this is YAPWAFAI (yet another poorly worded article from Apple Insider)

This article at Ars explains it better.

Its a good read.

[retroneo]

Moorestown on 45nm still isn't suitable power-consumption wise for a mobile phone. The 32nm shrink may well be suitable.

ARM Cortex is certainly the way to go at the moment for this kind of device.

[sflocal]

Even though Intel does supply components that make it into consumer electronics, Intel itself does not deal directly with consumers. Intel has demonstrated in the past its inabilities to deal with the consumer directly. They can buy up all the companies they want. Ultimately, Intel's corporate mentality will cause them to fail, or at the minimum, trip badly.

[GQB]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

Well that makes sense. I spoke too soon.

The article makes it sound like they are just another mobile software developer or a developer of mobile software applications. SoC is a different story altogether.

If there is somewhere in the article that actually mentions this, I missed it but in my defence I think this is YAPWAFAI (yet another poorly worded article from Apple Insider)

Wind River wrote the embedded system that was the brains of the Mars Lander, what, about 8-10 years back? They're very good.

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by retroneo

Moorestown on 45nm still isn't suitable power-consumption wise for a mobile phone. The 32nm shrink may well be suitable.

ARM Cortex is certainly the way to go at the moment for this kind of device.

I'm not saying that Intel will necessarily 'win' in the mobile space with this move but it does show a commitment to compete.

And lets face, in a year MS will have their Zune Phone which will be custom hardware and software. Sure they'll keep Win Mobile around for the looser handset makers, but they know they can't rely on Motorola and Sony to keep up with the iPhone.

[MacTripper]

Speaking of ARM and OS disappointments, Reuters reports that, "Microsoft's new Windows 7 operating system will not run on netbooks powered by ARM chips, Microsoft said on Wednesday, a blow to the British firm's hopes of becoming a big player in the sector

Wintel Alliance, Welcome to the Dark Side. Alive and well Thank You.

It is now part...of us.

How long can OS X hold out after ARM falls? hmmm...

[ghstmars]

Originally Posted by MacTripper

Speaking of ARM and OS disappointments, Reuters reports that, "Microsoft's new Windows 7 operating system will not run on netbooks powered by ARM chips, Microsoft said on Wednesday, a blow to the British firm's hopes of becoming a big player in the sector

Wintel Alliance, Welcome to the Dark Side. Alive and well Thank You.

It is now part...of us.

How long can OS X hold out after ARM falls? hmmm...

P.A. Semi + Imagination Technologies..
what else you need ?. Besides ARM is not going anywhere!!

[mdriftmeyer]

Oooh!

I'm sure Apple is shakin' about the thought of it.

Colleagues at Intel fight over being able to work on the Apple projects. I doubt this will have them clamoring for projects working on the Wind River acquisition.

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally Posted by ghstmars

P.A. Semi + Imagination Technologies..
what else you need ?. Besides ARM is not going anywhere!!

It will only expand.

[mark2005]

Originally Posted by backtomac

No it isn't. Its a very shrewd move on their part, IMO.

They know they need a lightweight efficient SoC design to compete in mobile devices in the future. Instead of relying on others, such as MS, to develop the software they're taking matters into their own hands.

You do know the Wind River is the undisputed leader in developing SW for embedded systems, right? They didn't buy a bozo operation.

Exactly right. Apple is moving away from Intel in the mobile space, due to Intel's failure to stay with ARM-based designs in processing capability per power consumed. With the obvious mess that is MS Windows Mobile, Intel knows it can't count on MS to advance an OS for its chips. And without an OS, all those hardware manufacturers like Dell and HP are left hanging and not able to buy and use those Intel chips.

And even if Apple uses Intel chips, only Apple can use its OS. So "limited" sales of chips.

[randythot]

Originally Posted by mark2005

Exactly right. Apple is moving away from Intel in the mobile space, due to Intel's failure to stay with ARM-based designs in processing capability per power consumed. With the obvious mess that is MS Windows Mobile, Intel knows it can't count on MS to advance an OS for its chips. And without an OS, all those hardware manufacturers like Dell and HP are left hanging and not able to buy and use those Intel chips.

And even if Apple uses Intel chips, only Apple can use its OS. So "limited" sales of chips.

And it seems to me, although it should raise some eyebrows at Apple, the real loser is MS. Between iPhone & Pre, PA Semi & Wind River, and Android...Win Mobile looks to be headed for a world of hurt this upcoming year or two.

[hypermark]

I sold a company to Wind River (device management vendor, Rapid Logic) and have partnered with Intel on/off for 13+ years so I have a pretty well formed perspective on the deal, which I blogged about in:

Closing the Book on Embedded: Intel buys Wind River
http://bit.ly/2I9ks

Check it out if interested.

Mark

[JeffDM]

Originally Posted by MacTripper

Speaking of ARM and OS disappointments, Reuters reports that, "Microsoft's new Windows 7 operating system will not run on netbooks powered by ARM chips, Microsoft said on Wednesday, a blow to the British firm's hopes of becoming a big player in the sector

Wintel Alliance, Welcome to the Dark Side. Alive and well Thank You.

It is now part...of us.

How long can OS X hold out after ARM falls? hmmm...

That presumes ARM is going to fall soon.

ARM has been sticking around for quite some time, despite not having a full Windows support. I don't recall ARM being among the list of supported architectures for any desktop version of Windows. Expecting Microsoft to maintain another architecture for ARM netbooks is a bit much, I don't see where it makes good business sense for MS to do so, it's a lot of work for a return of very questionable viability.

As someone else noted, Apple has silicon design capabilities now, they can carry it on as long as they need to to ensure a smooth transition should development of new ARM designs cease. Last I've heard, Apple has a version of OS X running on Intel architecture, seems like they should be able to make the jump if they needed to.

[randythot]

Originally Posted by hypermark

I sold a company to Wind River (device management vendor, Rapid Logic) and have partnered with Intel on/off for 13+ years so I have a pretty well formed perspective on the deal, which I blogged about in:

Closing the Book on Embedded: Intel buys Wind River
http://bit.ly/2I9ks

Check it out if interested.

Mark

Yikes, Mark...insightful blog.
Speaking as a casual investor/Apple enthusiast, I appreciate your input as it seems like you're in a whole other category to many at AppleInsider?
Hope to hear your thoughts on more things in the future!

[krreagan]

I work with vxWorks and Wind River every day and this marriage is akin to Daimler buying Chrysler.

Mark my words! Intel will jetisin them in a couple of years once they learn how big a POS WRS and vxWorks is.

WRS has a monopoly on embedded system in their markets and like most monopolies their support is really really bad! vxWorks is a mediocre POS that is the worst kind of unmanageable "#define" infested spaghetti code. They use a proprietary GNU compiler that is ... well a GNU compiler! what should you expect from a compiler that is for consumer systems.

And as bad as all that is... WRS Linux is even worse! what a cluster frack! And to think we put that on a spacecraft! you had better duck!

Yes they are on Mars and the SW was not even smart enough to prevent too many file being saved on the flash drive so it just locked up solid! really great SW.

Apple has absolutely nothing to worry about with this merger! (except perhaps that WRS might bring mighty Intel to it's knees Then Apple might have to go back to PPC processors.

Krreagan

[PG4G]

hypermark,

Very insightful blog, and to be honest, hit the nail where I expected Intel was going with this.

I don't see Intel breaking into software. Its not who Intel are - they simply aren't interested in being direct-to-customer, but if Intel wants to get into the embedded market, they need a foothold of some kind, and grabbing Wind River may just give them the leverage they need.

[PG4G]

*deleted multiple post*

[ltcommander.data]

I don't think this is a big concern on either side. Last I checked Intel and Apple were still two separate companies. I wasn't aware that they needed to be in lock-step with everything they do.

Intel wants to get in the handheld space with x86 and Atom and to ensure people are willing to use Atom in smartphones and embedded applications Intel needs an optimized OS to run on it hence Wind River. I can't see Apple begrudging Intel this. Afterall, if x86 and Atom succeeds in the embedded space, Apple would have the option of using it in the iPhone. Atom's embedded usage is also the perfect fit for the AppleTV, especially since it already uses an x86 version of OS X, and it's also quite possible that future Apple tablets/netbooks would also use x86 and OS X rather than be ARM and iPhone OS based. If necessary, it's probably easier to emulate ARM in x86 than x86 in ARM, especially since even if Atom isn't as power efficient it is faster than ARM processors.

[krreagan]

Originally Posted by ltcommander.data

I don't think this is a big concern on either side. Last I checked Intel and Apple were still two separate companies. I wasn't aware that they needed to be in lock-step with everything they do.

Intel wants to get in the handheld space with x86 and Atom and to ensure people are willing to use Atom in smartphones and embedded applications Intel needs an optimized OS to run on it hence Wind River. I can't see Apple begrudging Intel this. Afterall, if x86 and Atom succeeds in the embedded space, Apple would have the option of using it in the iPhone. Atom's embedded usage is also the perfect fit for the AppleTV, especially since it already uses an x86 version of OS X, and it's also quite possible that future Apple tablets/netbooks would also use x86 and OS X rather than be ARM and iPhone OS based. If necessary, it's probably easier to emulate ARM in x86 than x86 in ARM, especially since even if Atom isn't as power efficient it is faster than ARM processors.

vxWorks is a poor choice for an embedded handheld device there is very little support for any advanced UI features (this is not WinCE/OSX... this is a real-time OS). I can't believe Intel bought WRS to get into the consumer arena. More likely they think they can increase the usage of the Atom in embedded (non consumer) space by slowly dropping support for PPC/SPARC... from vxWorks forcing companies to move to their silicon.

fortunately Intel has enough cash to chuck $.8billion dollars out the window without too much impact on their bottom line!

Krreagan

[krreagan]

Originally Posted by aplnub

When spending 0.8 Billion dollars, people tend to make rational, long-term decisions.

Tell that to Daimler (Chrysler) , Tell that to Time-Life (AOL)... They spent much more then intel and look at what those investments did to the parent companies!

Krreagan

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by krreagan

vxWorks is a poor choice for an embedded handheld device there is very little support for any advanced UI features (this is not WinCE/OSX... this is a real-time OS). I can't believe Intel bought WRS to get into the consumer arena. More likely they think they can increase the usage of the Atom in embedded (non consumer) space by slowly dropping support for PPC/SPARC... from vxWorks forcing companies to move to their silicon.

Krreagan

Maybe that's not their desire.

Intel have already developed Moblin which by reports I've seen isn't bad. Perhaps WR is being bought to help get Moblin on embedded devices, ie Atom SoC designs.

Even more likely is WR has some IP that Intel needs to get SoC designs on Atom.

[UnexpectedBill]

Originally Posted by MacTripper

[i]How long can OS X hold out after ARM falls? hmmm...

I don't think you'll find that ARM Limited and its products will be too bothered by this. There are an awful lot of ARM processor cores in printers, phones, home routers/wireless access points, and even many external storage enclosure "bridge" chips. ARM has a large customer base in these markets because their products do so well at consuming little power while offering fairly rich functionality.

In response to the main article:

As far as Wind River goes, I didn't know that they had much of a presence in the mobile device market. I've seen the most of their software being used in devices such as DSL modems and home/business routers/wireless access points. (I also have a Xerox Phaser printer that runs VxWorks as its embedded operating system.) What press I've read about them suggests that providing the "intelligence" for devices that make up communications backbones and endpoints is their primary business.

If Intel ends up buying them, I think it might be to gain more introspective into how they should build a low power processor and an operating system to go with it. Atom is a good start, and I've been happy with the ones I've used but it doesn't directly compare to the ARM products when it comes to power consumption.

[yakovlev]

An Intel vice president publicly criticized Apple's choice of ARM for the iPhone's processor architecture late last year and said that the current and future cellphones capable of "full" Internet features as they wouldn't have Intel's x86 processors.

I am not a native English speaker, so forgive me if I am wrong, but is this sentence grammatically correct? I am not sure what it means. What did Intel's VP say? Thanks in advance for explaining.

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by yakovlev

An Intel vice president publicly criticized Apple's choice of ARM for the iPhone's processor architecture late last year and said that the current and future cellphones capable of "full" Internet features as they wouldn't have Intel's x86 processors.

I am not a native English speaker, so forgive me if I am wrong, but is this sentence grammatically correct? I am not sure what it means. What did Intel's VP say? Thanks in advance for explaining.

No, it’s not.

An Intel vice president publicly criticized Apple's choice of ARM for the iPhone's processor architecture late last year. They said that the current and future cellphones [wouldn’t be] capable of "full" Internet features as they wouldn't have Intel's x86 processors.

[noirdesir]

Originally Posted by JeffDM

Last I've heard, Apple has a version of OS X running on Intel architecture, seems like they should be able to make the jump if they needed to.

Really? That means we won't have to rely on PowerPC anymore?

Sorry, I assume you meant of OS X touch/mobile.

[vinea]

Originally Posted by backtomac

No it isn't. Its a very shrewd move on their part, IMO.

They know they need a lightweight efficient SoC design to compete in mobile devices in the future. Instead of relying on others, such as MS, to develop the software they're taking matters into their own hands.

You do know the Wind River is the undisputed leader in developing SW for embedded systems, right? They didn't buy a bozo operation.

Mmm....undisputed leader? Mkay. VxWorks is the defacto RTOS, is lightweight and solid but meh. Wind River may not be "bozo" but I dunno that I'd have spent that kind of money on them.

When ARM is going to release a 1Ghz multi-core Cortex A9 the need for VxWorks is starting to seriously decline.

Embedded Linux is fast enough and Wind River doesn't have THAT much advantage there over LynuxWorks and MontaVista in that arena. Wind River's foray into embedded linux and a Android dev stack is an indicator where the winds are blowing and the end of VxWorks dominance in the embedded world except for those with tight hard real time requirements (which are fewer than you think).

As a former embedded software dev on VxWorks, pSOS and VMExec I'm happy to be "former". Give me Android any day of the week over VxWorks. On the plus side, Wind River is a player in the open handset arena. On the down side, the whole point of that tool chain is that it isn't a single-source proprietary product like VxWorks.

[vinea]

Originally Posted by backtomac

Maybe that's not their desire.

Intel have already developed Moblin which by reports I've seen isn't bad. Perhaps WR is being bought to help get Moblin on embedded devices, ie Atom SoC designs.

Even more likely is WR has some IP that Intel needs to get SoC designs on Atom.

How does WR work on SoC designs? Yes you can park Android/VxWorks/OSX on the flash of a SoC but from the perspective of the operating system SoC vs not should make little difference.

[vinea]

Originally Posted by krreagan

I work with vxWorks and Wind River every day and this marriage is akin to Daimler buying Chrysler.

Mark my words! Intel will jetisin them in a couple of years once they learn how big a POS WRS and vxWorks is.

WRS has a monopoly on embedded system in their markets and like most monopolies their support is really really bad! vxWorks is a mediocre POS that is the worst kind of unmanageable "#define" infested spaghetti code. They use a proprietary GNU compiler that is ... well a GNU compiler! what should you expect from a compiler that is for consumer systems.

And as bad as all that is... WRS Linux is even worse! what a cluster frack! And to think we put that on a spacecraft! you had better duck!

Yes they are on Mars and the SW was not even smart enough to prevent too many file being saved on the flash drive so it just locked up solid! really great SW.

Apple has absolutely nothing to worry about with this merger! (except perhaps that WRS might bring mighty Intel to it's knees Then Apple might have to go back to PPC processors.

Krreagan

Yah, agreed. The only good thing you can say about WRS is they sucked less than their now mostly defunct competitors. Some purchased (and killed) by WRS (like pSOS) and some that died out on their own (Motorolla which killed VMEexec eventually). I guess VRTX is still around as is LynuxWorks.

Debugging sucked on VxWorks because you ended up stuck with gdb in all it's glory hacked by WRS devs to work in their environment.

To be fair though...it's not really the RTOS' job to make sure you don't fill up a storage device. Embedded devs are trained (by past mistakes and annoying bugs) to pre-allocate everything needed at startup and manage their own usage of limited resources.

But these days you're a hell of a lot better off keeping the pure RT stuff in a tiny RT kernel and leave the majority of your code in userspace of the non-RT Unix/Linux environment. Which might be smart enough not to fall over when you fill up a disk.

Well, no, not really if it is certain disks.

Intel also wont jettison WRS. They may let VxWorks development die out if the revenue stream doesn't justify itself.

[backtomac]

Originally Posted by vinea

How does WR work on SoC designs? Yes you can park Android/VxWorks/OSX on the flash of a SoC but from the perspective of the operating system SoC vs not should make little difference.

I don't know. But I wonder if WR has a patent that Intel desires to get say Moblin on Atom as a SoC product.

I don't know I'm only speculating. I would expect Intel to push Moblin on Atom as their 'solution' for smartphones. Wouldn't you? From what I've read Moblin is pretty good.