Microsoft reveals plans to ship Windows 7 without IE in Europe

[AppleInsider]

Due to ongoing antitrust issues with the European Union, Microsoft has confirmed it will ship Windows 7 in Europe without its flagship browser, Internet Explorer 8.

The news comes as Apple’s newly released Safari 4 browser achieved 6 million downloads from Windows users – with users of Microsoft’s operating systems accounting for more than half of the 11 million total downloads of the browser since its release Monday.

As first reported by CNet News, Microsoft released a confidential memo to PC makers in Europe stating they may "offer IE8 separately and free of charge and will make it easy and convenient for PC manufacturers to preinstall IE 8 on Windows 7 machines in Europe if they so choose. PC manufacturers may choose to install an alternative browser instead of IE 8, and as has always been the case, they may install multiple browsers if they wish."

After the memo leaked, Microsoft responded on its own public relations blog. Writing on behalf of the software giant, Vice President and Deputy General Counsel Dave Heiner said Microsoft officials are concerned by the lack of sufficient browser competition in Europe. A preliminary opinion in January from the European Commission only served to solidify that concern.

Microsoft has been ensnared in an antitrust dispute with the European Union for years. After it was alleged that the Windows developer was engaging in anti-competitive practices, Microsoft was forced to release versions of its operating system without Windows Media Player bundled, as it traditionally is in other markets. In 2004, the European Union ordered Microsoft to pay €497 million for alleged abuse of its dominant position in the market.

Heiner said that the removal of Internet Explorer will not keep Windows 7 from its Oct. 22 worldwide launch date, nor will it affect the performance or abilities of the operating system.

The European Union’s executive branch responded to Microsoft’s announcement critically. "The Commission had suggested to Microsoft that consumers be provided with a choice of web browsers," the European Commission said in a press release. "Instead Microsoft has apparently decided to supply retail consumers with a version of Windows without a web browser at all. Rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less."

Internet Explorer will remain in copies of Windows XP and Windows Vista. Should a manufacturer ship a system without any browser installed, the potential scenario raises an important question: How will a user download and install a browser? The European Commission has suggested its own solution: Microsoft should "allow consumers to choose from different Web browsers presented to them through a 'ballot screen' in Windows."

[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]

[solipsism]

What a pointless victory for the EU.

[brucep]

Originally Posted by solipsism

What a pointless victory for the EU.

What a pointless victory for the IE.

[hypoluxa]

Why should this be on AI? No one here probably really cares what MS does with its browser.

[antkm1]

Sure, IE 8 Sucks and does not live up to what they've hyped it to be. I downloaded it just to test it out on my Vista Machine and it's really no better than before. A year ago I downloaded Safari and thought it was just OK, faster yes but I wasn't thrilled with the overall performance due to it's incompatibility with some banking sites.

Last January I downloaded Google's "Chrome" browser and i've never looked back! if you haven't tried it, i strongly suggest it. It's way faster than IE 8/7 and even Safari on some websites. I'd really like to see the speed tests on CNet with this browser compared to all the rest. I bet you'd be surprised. Sure, it's still in Beta but Google still has Gmail in Beta; they must have a different set of criteria when going from Beta to a release number.

[Bourgoises Pig]

Originally Posted by antkm1

Sure, IE 8 Sucks and does not live up to what they've hyped it to be. I downloaded it just to test it out on my Vista Machine and it's really no better than before. A year ago I downloaded Safari and thought it was just OK, faster yes but I wasn't thrilled with the overall performance due to it's incompatibility with some banking sites.

Last January I downloaded Google's "Chrome" browser and i've never looked back! if you haven't tried it, i strongly suggest it. It's way faster than IE 8/7 and even Safari on some websites. I'd really like to see the speed tests on CNet with this browser compared to all the rest. I bet you'd be surprised. Sure, it's still in Beta but Google still has Gmail in Beta; they must have a different set of criteria when going from Beta to a release number.

With Chrome, I am concerned about privacy issues. Data mining, anyone?

It would have been better to read an article that compares IE8 to Safari.............

[majortom1981]

Well people do put windows on Mac pc's and since everybody keeps stating apple is a hardware company then this would be relevant.

[smackenzie]

Without a doubt, Microsoft is thumbing its nose at the EU Commission. But I have to agree that supporting 3 to 6 competitors' products is just silly:

- Should Microsoft be responsible for implementing the ballot box (super easy) and the consequential logic to load and execute their competitors products (more messy)?

- Should Microsoft be responsible for supporting all of the installed browsers? If not, how much support should they provide in order to make sure that their customers can find the right support for their browser?

- Should Microsoft also create an app to let customers change their browsers? Or stop using an existing browser?

- Does Microsoft need to distribute browsers in updates? Should they pay to include them in new versions of the OS? Should they hold off on releasing versions of Windows until all browser mfrs are ready?

Some of you will suggest that all they need to do is post a link to grab the browsers and let the mfrs take care of it. But... a link using what application?

If anything, the EU has done too little, too late -- MS has posted an indignant child silly response to a totally small-thinking silly request.

[joelsalt]

Originally Posted by antkm1

Sure, IE 8 Sucks and does not live up to what they've hyped it to be. I downloaded it just to test it out on my Vista Machine and it's really no better than before. A year ago I downloaded Safari and thought it was just OK, faster yes but I wasn't thrilled with the overall performance due to it's incompatibility with some banking sites.

Last January I downloaded Google's "Chrome" browser and i've never looked back! if you haven't tried it, i strongly suggest it. It's way faster than IE 8/7 and even Safari on some websites. I'd really like to see the speed tests on CNet with this browser compared to all the rest. I bet you'd be surprised. Sure, it's still in Beta but Google still has Gmail in Beta; they must have a different set of criteria when going from Beta to a release number.

How does it compare to Safari 4.0? I remember using Chrome earlier this year and it absolutely screamed, but I'm using safari 4 now and its much faster than before

[Virgil-TB2]

So Microsoft wins again.

This is a useless "victory" if the machines are all sold by OEMs with pre-installed OS's and if Microsoft is going to be sending out the same thing (albeit on two discs now) to those same OEMs.

It just shows how absolutely toothless any kind of consumer protection laws are. If the "socialist" (according to American "morans"), EU can't do anything better than this against one of the most anti-competitive, law-breaking monopolies out there ... what's the point really?

I hope I live to see the day when corporations are treated as something less than the consumers they serve and "human right"s are again reserved for, you know ... humans, (instead of for financial and business groups that are essentially above the law).

[Virgil-TB2]

Originally Posted by smackenzie

Without a doubt, Microsoft is thumbing its nose at the EU Commission. But I have to agree that supporting 3 to 6 competitors' products is just silly ...

I agree.

The EU would have been better to simply pass a rule that Microsoft must ship a browser with it's system that supports web standards. This would effectively do the same thing but not interfere with the market or competition.

I only run Windows on my Mac once in a while, when I absolutely have to, but given that one must keep the software up to date. What I've found is that you *have* to have MSIE installed to do the updates (properly), so most people are going to install it as almost the first thing they do (if it isn't already installed).

If Microsoft was forced to make windows update work with other browsers (properly), and be standards compliant, then what browser you use would not be at issue. This is what was behind the original suit in regards "disconnecting" MSIE from the OS.

[columbus]

If you don't have a browser, how are most regular folk supposed to get another browser?

[antkm1]

Originally Posted by joelsalt

How does it compare to Safari 4.0? I remember using Chrome earlier this year and it absolutely screamed, but I'm using safari 4 now and its much faster than before

Originally Posted by Bourgoises Pig

With Chrome, I am concerned about privacy issues. Data mining, anyone?

It would have been better to read an article that compares IE8 to Safari.............

I never updated to Safari 4.0, since i was so pleased with "Chrome". I may try it just to see. But, i'm one of those who just sticks with a good thing when they see it. If i took the time to test them all, i'd want a paycheck for it.

Privacy and data mining is what made Google who they are today. They sell the ability to compile data. They do have an "incognito" mode that does not track data if you're worried, but it's not a setting, you have to open a new "incognito" window every time (one of my complaints).

I only use this mode when i'm going to banking sites and sites that i'd rather Google not see (but, i'm sure they do somehow). Find me a browser that doesn't, I assure you apple's browser tracks data just the same, you may not think so but i'm sure they do.

[majortom1981]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

I agree.

The EU would have been better to simply pass a rule that Microsoft must ship a browser with it's system that supports web standards. This would effectively do the same thing but not interfere with the market or competition.

I only run Windows on my Mac once in a while, when I absolutely have to, but given that one must keep the software up to date. What I've found is that you *have* to have MSIE installed to do the updates (properly), so most people are going to install it as almost the first thing they do (if it isn't already installed).

If Microsoft was forced to make windows update work with other browsers (properly), and be standards compliant, then what browser you use would not be at issue. This is what was behind the original suit in regards "disconnecting" MSIE from the OS.

Well on vista and windows 7 you dont need a browser installed at all to get the updates . I honestly think this is a little to late. With programs like itunes pretty much installing Safari when you install them and other programs installing open office (java does this if you dont pay attention to the install) and firefox i really dont thin kthis is much of an issue.

A lot of people downloaded safari,firefox and chrome on windows which i think invalidates their point.

I think since now ie wont be available within windows itself they really dont have anything else to do. Remember this could have ramifications down the line especially if apples market share gets bigger.

[mrochester]

Originally Posted by majortom1981

Well on vista and windows 7 you dont need a browser installed at all to get the updates . I honestly think this is a little to late. With programs like itunes pretty much installing Safari when you install them and other programs installing open office (java does this if you dont pay attention to the install) and firefox i really dont thin kthis is much of an issue.

A lot of people downloaded safari,firefox and chrome on windows which i think invalidates their point.

I think since now ie wont be available within windows itself they really dont have anything else to do. Remember this could have ramifications down the line especially if apples market share gets bigger.

I think stupid scenarios like this are only going to get more prevelant, and Apple will be targetted before long. We might see Apple forced to strip OSX right back... no iTunes, no Safari, no Mail etc etc.

[photobiker]

Originally Posted by columbus

If you don't have a browser, how are most regular folk supposed to get another browser?

It's indeed the question I saw yesterday on several European web sites: "How can I download Firefox if I don't have IE?"

Gopher? Telnet?

[Denmaru]

Yes, a simple "you have to include a standard-compliant browser" would have sufficed. Ah well, at least we tried...

[cameronj]

Originally Posted by smackenzie

Some of you will suggest that all they need to do is post a link to grab the browsers and let the mfrs take care of it. But... a link using what application?

If only someone, somewhere could come up with a concept for an application that can download and install applications without opening the web!

Apple software update
Google updater
Windows automatic update
FTP for god's sake

I wonder if it's even possible!

[cameronj]

Originally Posted by mrochester

I think stupid scenarios like this are only going to get more prevelant, and Apple will be targetted before long. We might see Apple forced to strip OSX right back... no iTunes, no Safari, no Mail etc etc.

Not until Apple hits 90% market share my friend.

[bensimnbibo]

Originally Posted by antkm1

I never updated to Safari 4.0, since i was so pleased with "Chrome". I may try it just to see. But, i'm one of those who just sticks with a good thing when they see it. If i took the time to test them all, i'd want a paycheck for it.

Privacy and data mining is what made Google who they are today. They sell the ability to compile data. They do have an "incognito" mode that does not track data if you're worried, but it's not a setting, you hav' to open a new "incognito" window every time (one of my complaints).

I only use this mode when i'm going to banking sites and sites that i'd rather Google not see (but, i'm sure they do somehow). Find me a browser that doesn't, I assure you apple's browser tracks data just the same, you may not think so but i'm sure they do.

i admire that u stick to good things its a smart way to stay safe on the web that being said i did a test myself of crome against safari 4 wich i have bin using since the beta release a few months back also am using a macbook pro 17 inch 8 gigs of ram 2.93ghz intell core and the rest and i have a really fast internet conection and i have found things i like and dislike about bothe browsers i like them both on pc because i found aside from the great new things that safrie 4 offers from browsing your history in coverflow wich has bin a life saver to the favorits page wich smootes a bit of my browsing out i found them both to be speedy and solid wen i used them on my macbook pro it was no contest safari has a better user interface partially because apple made it compatible with multitouch wich has made my browsing experience amazing its faster more intuative and neing able to zoom like the iphone on an internet site to read small text or enlarge a video makes it easy to read and see there was nothing really that made me hate ether browser the google broser is good but in comparison to safari on the machin it was built for its just easyer to use and navigate. ps apple probably does track its browser and im glad they do thats wy its great they try hard to make it good u might really like it and never look back a second time thats wat happend to me when i swiched to mac from pc 2 years ago giv it a shot youl be glad u did

[cameronj]

Originally Posted by bensimnbibo

i admire that u stick to good things its a smart way to stay safe on the web that being said i did a test myself of crome against safari 4 wich i have bin using since the beta release a few months back also am using a macbook pro 17 inch 8 gigs of ram 2.93ghz intell core and the rest and i have a really fast internet conection and i have found things i like and dislike about bothe browsers i like them both on pc because i found aside from the great new things that safrie 4 offers from browsing your history in coverflow wich has bin a life saver to the favorits page wich smootes a bit of my browsing out i found them both to be speedy and solid wen i used them on my macbook pro it was no contest safari has a better user interface partially because apple made it compatible with multitouch wich has made my browsing experience amazing its faster more intuative and neing able to zoom like the iphone on an internet site to read small text or enlarge a video makes it easy to read and see there was nothing really that made me hate ether browser the google broser is good but in comparison to safari on the machin it was built for its just easyer to use and navigate. ps apple probably does track its browser and im glad they do thats wy its great they try hard to make it good u might really like it and never look back a second time thats wat happend to me when i swiched to mac from pc 2 years ago giv it a shot youl be glad u did

There are a few keys I want to introduce you to...

On the right side of the keyboard, it says Enter on it. Try it, see how you like it.
Also, right next to the M there is what's called a comma, and right next to that, a period. Great inventions, both!

With just these three easy keys, you will find that people actually can read your words rather than just squinting in pain and then skipping to the next one. Just ask brucep!

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by cameronj

Not until Apple hits 90% market share my friend.

(waits for someone to seriously stre that Apple has a monopoly on Macs)

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by cameronj

There are a few keys I want to introduce you to...

On the right side of the keyboard, it says Enter on it. Try it, see how you like it.
Also, right next to the M there is what's called a comma, and right next to that, a period. Great inventions, both!

With just these three easy keys, you will find that people actually can read your words rather than just squinting in pain and then skipping to the next one. Just ask brucep!

In Brucep's defense, his posts have become more coherent. Though he could still make them a little more understandable at times, but so can we all.

[iVlad]

What a confusing company Micro$oft is becoming. They have no idea where to put their efforts. Zune, new Search Engine, Xbox or keep on fixing Vista and name it Windows 7.

That's what they get for playing dumb.

[Cubert]

They are going to ship it without any browsers at all, but Clippy will pop up and will tell you to launch a web browser to get online.

[Cubert]

Originally Posted by bensimnbibo

i admire that u stick to good things its a smart way to stay safe on the web that being said i did a test myself of crome against safari 4 wich i have bin using since the beta release a few months back also am using a macbook pro 17 inch 8 gigs of ram 2.93ghz intell core and the rest and i have a really fast internet conection and i have found things i like and dislike about bothe browsers i like them both on pc because i found aside from the great new things that safrie 4 offers from browsing your history in coverflow wich has bin a life saver to the favorits page wich smootes a bit of my browsing out i found them both to be speedy and solid wen i used them on my macbook pro it was no contest safari has a better user interface partially because apple made it compatible with multitouch wich has made my browsing experience amazing its faster more intuative and neing able to zoom like the iphone on an internet site to read small text or enlarge a video makes it easy to read and see there was nothing really that made me hate ether browser the google broser is good but in comparison to safari on the machin it was built for its just easyer to use and navigate. ps apple probably does track its browser and im glad they do thats wy its great they try hard to make it good u might really like it and never look back a second time thats wat happend to me when i swiched to mac from pc 2 years ago giv it a shot youl be glad u did

Maybe this guy is William Faulkner come back from the dead.

[cameronj]

Originally Posted by solipsism

In Brucep's defense he his posts have become more coherent. Though he could still make the a little more understandable.

Actually that's what I was trying to say. Readability matters and his is improved.

[paxman]

Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2

I agree.

The EU would have been better to simply pass a rule that Microsoft must ship a browser with it's system that supports web standards.

99.9% of users could not care less what browser they use. The point by Virgil is a good one, though. Standards compliance should be a legal requirement.

Personally I don't see what difference it makes what browsers use but given that this is such a contentious issue all platforms should be treated equally and be required to offer a screen during installation with the option to install any, or all browsers available for the particular platform.

[svesan03]

Is to piss people off so they have complaint letters to show at the next hearing. Idiots who don't know how to use a PC will wonder how they can get on-line to download a browser, when they don't have a browser.... where will they get one, how can they get on the internet...

Then Microsoft will record all the calls and use them in evidence. It'll be as hilarious as the old, my cup holder broke and I can't seem to find another in the parts catalogue type deal.

Not supplying a browser so people can go on-line and download another browser to use is childish. But then, the way Windows acts when you turn it one, you'd think it was going through the terrible twos anyway, always crashing and burning and making people yell.

[thanx_al]

I hope I live to see the day when corporations are treated as something less than the consumers they serve and "human right"s are again reserved for, you know ... humans, (instead of for financial and business groups that are essentially above the law).

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. But don't hold your breath.

[sheff]

Originally Posted by columbus

If you don't have a browser, how are most regular folk supposed to get another browser?

Totally agreed. Half of EU's computer users will be browserless and will complain about not having internet...

[Phone-UI-Guy]

Originally Posted by photobiker

It's indeed the question I saw yesterday on several European web sites: "How can I download Firefox if I don't have IE?"

Gopher? Telnet?

This is so backdoor Microsoft monopoly crap... Your going to download IE via Windows Update! You know, I know it, apparently the EU hasn't figured this move out.

You could FTP a new browser if you know what your doing, but most people won't be able to do that. This is just sad.... Microsoft avoids penalties by removing the tool that allows what little competition there is and you know they will ask if you want to download IE during the first Windows Update! Of course then you have to actually install IE with your own free will so that you can then download the competition... Maybe Apple will hand out Safari disks at their stores?!?!?

The solution is to stop buying Windows PCs people!

[antkm1]

Originally Posted by bensimnbibo

i admire that u stick to good things its a smart way to stay safe on the web that being said i did a test myself of crome against safari 4 wich i have bin using since the beta release a few months back also am using a macbook pro 17 inch 8 gigs of ram 2.93ghz intell core and the rest and i have a really fast internet conection and i have found things i like and dislike about bothe browsers i like them both on pc because i found aside from the great new things that safrie 4 offers from browsing your history in coverflow wich has bin a life saver to the favorits page wich smootes a bit of my browsing out i found them both to be speedy and solid wen i used them on my macbook pro it was no contest safari has a better user interface partially because apple made it compatible with multitouch wich has made my browsing experience amazing its faster more intuative and neing able to zoom like the iphone on an internet site to read small text or enlarge a video makes it easy to read and see there was nothing really that made me hate ether browser the google broser is good but in comparison to safari on the machin it was built for its just easyer to use and navigate. ps apple probably does track its browser and im glad they do thats wy its great they try hard to make it good u might really like it and never look back a second time thats wat happend to me when i swiched to mac from pc 2 years ago giv it a shot youl be glad u did

Thanks for the impossible to read post without puntuation. However, I did find your post interesting. My only thought about that would be...Of course Safari will be faster than Chrome on the Mac, all software made for the Mac by Apple works better on a Mac than a PC.

iTunes is so super slow on a PC because it wasn't designed for it. I'd like to see how Safari compares to Chrome on a PC. Might still be faster. yes, I know, this is a Mac based site but still...

[digitalclips]

Originally Posted by photobiker

It's indeed the question I saw yesterday on several European web sites: "How can I download Firefox if I don't have IE?"

Gopher? Telnet?

This is Windows we are talking about ... surely some one will create a way to put Firefox or Safari on them in a few minutes of being connected to the Internet without the owner even knowing.

[kotatsu]

I'm stunned at the mind boggling stupidity of this. For non experienced users they will now struggle to get online. It's simply retarded. The fools who decided this should be lined up and shot. It's akin to shipping a PC without a mouse and keyboard, or a car without wheels.

[brucep]

Originally Posted by cameronj

Actually that's what I was trying to say. Readability matters and his is improved.

Thank guys. In fact about 4 other forums are so happy wiht me now.

Again thanks.

9

[brucep]

Originally Posted by kotatsu

I'm stunned at the mind boggling stupidity of this. For non experienced users they will now struggle to get online. It's simply retarded. The fools who decided this should be lined up and shot. It's akin to shipping a PC without a mouse and keyboard, or a car without wheels.

Any p/cs Sold in EU will have 3 or 4 browers on them. YOU will have to choose one. No more big brother.

Oddly i am feeling your stunedness while your mind boggles.

9

[brucep]

I FIXED IT

[QUOTE=bensimnbibo;1432116] I admire that you stick to good things, it's a smart way to stay safe on the web, that being said. I did a test myself of chrome against safari 4. Ihave been using the latter since the beta was released a few months back.
I also am using a macbook pro 17 inch, 8 gigs of ram and a 2.93ghz Intel core. I have a really fast internet connection and i have found things I like and dislike about both browsers. I like them both on a PC because I found, << < Aside from the great new things that safari 4 offers from browsing your history in cover flow,> which has been a life saver to the favorites page which smoothes a bit of my browsing out >> I found them both to be speedy and solid when I used them on my macbook pro. It was no contest safari has a better user interface. Partially because apple made it compatible with multi-touch, which has made my browsing experience amazing. Its faster, more intuitive and being able to zoom like the iphone on an internet site and or to read small text or enlarge a video.

I see there was nothing really that made me hate ether browser. The google browser is good but in comparison to safari, on the machine it was built for, its just easier to use and navigate.

P.S. Apple probably does track its browser and im glad they do. Thats why its great, they try hard to make it good, you might really like it. You may never look back a second time. Thats what happened to me when i switched to mac from P.C. 2 years ago. I give it a shot and you will be glad you did[


I FIXED IT !!! As best as my feeble skills could.

[ascii]

Thank goodness we have the government to protect us from... free software?!

[solipsism]

Originally Posted by brucep

Any p/cs Sold in EU will have 3 or 4 browers on them. YOU will have to choose one. No more big brother.

Oddly i am feeling your stunedness while your mind boggles.

The OEMs can even put IE on them. I’m sure MS will try to make IE the standard browser, or maybe even the only browser, since the OEMs can do it and I don’t see why MS can’t pay them (or reduce their Windows charge) to do so.

The issue comes with retail versions of the OS. If they can’t be sold with IE installed, perhaps MS can bundle a separate CD with the browser installer on it. Really, it’s just a pointless victory that seems to hurts the consumer more than it hurts MS. The EU already has a great deal of non-IE usage and I don’t see this move affecting anything. IE will probably continue to lose marketshare at the same rate it is now. As previously stated, making it confine to a minimum set of standards to be included would be better.

• http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_v...-200904-200913). (graph)