Apple TV 3.0 update not helping sales as AirPort routers lose share

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  • Reply 21 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by apfel View Post


    Airport Extreme

    = IMHO a product for true fanboys

    = Missing Features (e.g. QoS)

    = Missing Web-Interface (hello Linux)

    = No Firmware-Support for OpenFirmwares like DD-WRT or Tomato

    = but it looks nice -> very important for true fanboys



    Extremely Disappointing: Apple Airport Extreme New Simultaneous Dual-Band Router Briefly Reviewed

    http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wirel...iefly-reviewed



    No ADSL modem either.



    Most of the devices on sale from Linksys by Cisco, Netgear, Belkin etc. have built in ADSL modems.
  • Reply 22 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    As for AppleTV. Unless the movie studios permit Apple to give it the ability to import your DVDs, its not going to catch on.



    So what's stopping anyone form importing their DVD's? I have 2 TB's of movies almost all of which is from my DVD collection. Get a copy of hanbrake and be done with it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)




    Apple Tv users know all about netflix and their tardy delivery schedule and mediocre service. I get lost the next morning after it airs. Netflix will never be able to do that. I can pre-order movies on the ITS, netflix can't. I can download my movies to my IPT and take them with me when I travel. Also, the quality of TV on the ITS is currently unrivaled. HULU, netflix, even digital cable doesn't compare. BD is the only thing better and I don't care enough about the difference to want to start another library on a dusty shelf with movies that never get played. Hell, Apple is even rumored to be negotiating pre-DVD sales of their movies. How could netflix make that happen?



    I love how everyone focuses on the word "hobby"... when was the last time you spent millions on a hobby? How much is the new data center going to cost Apple? What do you think it's for? Their current server farm in cupertino is stressed thanks to the ITS and ATV streaming. They haven't said anything about it officially, but they're investing heavily in the media consumption. No service is perfect at the moment but the advantages Apple has that other's don't are, lead time/ experience with a successful business model, connections and clout (to make deals happen) and their overall product ecosystem. When the tablet makes it's debut I firmly believe the market will change drastically. I would think casual gaming and strong integration between the tablet and appliances like the ATV, will reshape what these devices are used for.
  • Reply 23 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SinisterJoe View Post


    With its current level of functionality the Apple TV just needs to be cheaper. The complexity of the current hardware platform prevents that from happening. Apple should move the ATV to an ARM SoC design and ditch local magnetic based storage. 16GB of flash memory would be enough to buffer streamed content and pre-cache downloads (purchased items) before syncing them with iTunes. This should make a $99 entry level price realistic. Combined with a new wave of advertising I think it would be a popular mainstream device. Another key would be creating an Apple TV App Store. Apple can't provide all the content themselves so they should focus on building a platform and partnering with other companies to delivery content to the TV.



    Not everyone wants to stream. 16gb is way way way too small.
  • Reply 24 of 211
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    As for AppleTV. Unless the movie studios permit Apple to give it the ability to import your DVDs, its not going to catch on, especially at $230. In a lineup of integrated multi-use devices, its a one trick pony that requires a separate DVD or Blu-ray player for your current movies, a PVR for recording your shows or games, and video game console if you want to do that. Combine one, two, or all of these features, or integrate it into TVs and it would sell much better.



    I agree about needing to be able to play DVDs you already own, but there is a very simple solution that does not involve getting the permission of the studios...add a $10 DVD drive! I think that would in no way compete with iTunes sales/rentals. Apple could limit the competition from blu-ray by letting you play your DVDs and then once they get their hardware in your living room, encouraging you to get your HD content online from iTunes. No, it wouldn't be blu-ray quality, but the vast majority of people really wouldn't care.



    Heck, I'd be happy if they even just gave it the ability to access the Movie folder on a remote Mac and play all the formats FrontRow can, including video_TS. Having to transcode everything and put it in iTunes is a stupid limitation.
  • Reply 25 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?



    It's the easiest setup experience I've had for a router. Had a Linksys and DLInk in the past. Both were a bear to setup. Published comparison reviews confirm this.
  • Reply 26 of 211
    Bought a refurbished Apple Tv and a Refurbished Time Capsule this December, and this is what i can share with you:



    Though i live in Portugal where you cant buy or rent movies (wish i could), i like to have in my living room to show to friends and family, a copy of all my photos, home videos and to watch some youtube or listen to some podcasts. Bla Bla Bla you can buy other cheaper produtcs to do that, but you dont have the simplicity to sync it all automatically and control the apple tv with you ipod, with a real keyboard and swipe gestures.. Its just a perfect experience, it makes your friends say Uau (even though this is just a hobbie for apple)



    The refurbished apple tv, costed less then 150?!! How can you dare to say that this isnt cheap? If you want to have quality products you have to pay for it.



    Cant wait for the time, where i'll play games in my apple tv, with my iphone/ipod as a remote... C'mon Steve!!



    Since i switched, i have convinced more the 50 people this year... And its so easy, because it just works!
  • Reply 27 of 211
    Apple should do a few things with its Apple TV.



    First off an iPod Touch should be bundled with every Apple TV. After using my iPhone as the remote for my Apple TV I can't go back to the plastic remote. It works so good and feels so natural



    Second, If Apple could some way figure out how to get iPhone/iPod Touch Apps to run on Apple TV it would be amazing. Apps are essentially all mini websites. Simple games could be run on it to compete with Wiiware games.



    Third, Monthly subscription for unlimited TV Shows



    I don't what else I'd want from my Apple TV at this point. I'm already satisfied with it but these additions would be awesome.
  • Reply 28 of 211
    Another strike against Apple TV is that it primarily only works with HDTVs. That really limits your market. It may take 5 to 10 years for that market share to become more accepted.
  • Reply 29 of 211
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    AppleTV:

    This needs a complete HW overhaul. I still maintain that unusual demo Jobs brought on stage 6 months before launch was more for showing content providers there was a secure method for selling their video through iTunes and to gauge the consumer’s opinion.



    It has plenty of pluses but also plenty of minuses and came into being well before that market was fully formed. Since then consoles and DVRs have added more home networking and multimedia options. They need to get rid of that specialized 1GHz pentium and update to something like Ion with 1080p and but the bullet with Netflix, and hopefully allow for an easier way to aadd codecs and other video types, even if not officially supported.



    The one thing they can’t do is let that market go. Like MS with the Zune and XBox they have to force their way into the market even if it means little to no profit.





    AEBS:

    I understand why people say it’s pricey but if you want a dual-basnd router with a built in print server and network external HDDs it’s definitely competitive. I would like to see Apple start offering a higher class of router that can handle excessive throughout. With DOCSIS3.0 routers pushing 50-100Mbps from your ISP, 1000BASE-T wired homes and/or 802.11n homes with increasing higher data usage I don’t think any consumer router can handle these data loads efficiently at all times.
  • Reply 30 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iVlad View Post


    AppleTV needs to completely change it's philosophy. Rather than just buying and playing what's on iTunes, it needs to play all videos that I have on my computer. I would love to see something like:

    Insert any DVD and AppleTV automatically imports it into its Hard Drive. Rather than having content take space on your computer and Apple TV why not just have it in once place and allow streaming when on WIFI.

    There needs to be a better integration into web and social networking. It has YouTube but it's so phony. Give us real YouTube where you can see your account, rate, leave comments etc. And youtube is not the only web channel AppleTV needs. Vimeo needed as well.

    And last thing, it has to be opened to Developers. Bring Apps!!!



    You can store your movies on a 160GB drive? The point of the drive is to act as a cache so ATV doesn't have to be connected to a server all of the time. You'll still need a giant HD, especially if you want 1080P movie; compressed they are more than 3GB/ movie.



    You can rate youtube videos... though it is convoluted I can see how you would miss it. Other web features would be great but with the web all "flashed" out, I don't think we'll be getting our wishes any time soon. Netflix streaming would be a great addition but it's far more likely that Apple will release their own streaming option.



    Regarding Aps.... I couldn't agree more. I think we're waiting for the tablet though. It could be a better device for interaction with the ATV, (or apple wants to make it another feature perceptively unique to the tablet) but an IPT or an Iphone would work quite well as a controller for games. I would also love to see the fraking weather and more news options as well.
  • Reply 31 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?



    The Airport setup Utility really is a pleasure to use. especially if you are managing a network with multiple units (like an Extreme, a Time Machine, and a couple of Expresses)

    Is it enough to justify the higher price? Not for me.

    Though as an aside; nothing can perform the same function of AirTunes as well as the Airport Express does, IMO. So there's that aspect.
  • Reply 32 of 211
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wtbard View Post


    Another strike against Apple TV is that it primarily only works with HDTVs. That really limits your market. It may take 5 to 10 years for that market share to become more accepted.



    I am sure the HDTV market gets more accepted every day, but what is the current marketshare compared to SDTV or EDTV? I?d say it?s high enough to not worry about it. You also have to consider that Apple isn?t selling the device to everyone who has a TV but to everyone who buys Apple?s premium products, which would more likely fall to people that started buying HDTV many years ago.
  • Reply 33 of 211
    john.bjohn.b Posts: 2,742member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)



    Netflix is neutral, so it has much more content and is the best value around. It's sweet that it remembers where I left off in a movie or TV series, even a few days later. It remembers what I've watched etc.



    On the other hand, Steve Jobs is the largest shareholder of Disney, which owns ABC so there is a conflict/competition issue from other content generators. They don't want Apple to get a monopoly like they did with the music industry. Also rentals from iTunes is just too expensive in comparison.





    I routinely use my PS3 and a Netflix disk to stream shows and movies to my HDTV anytime I want to watch for only $13 or so a month unlimited.



    Not all the content is stream-able though, some require a real DVD, so those get sent in the snailmail.







    As far as Airport: What I feel occurs is new folks get a Mac and realize they need a internet connection at home. So they call the phone or cable company and they come and install a dual device (modem and wifi in one) or a PC geek friend sets one up for them with a device from online or local store.



    To properly set up and harden a router does require some knowledge which may be outside of the typical Apple Store customers learning curve.



    To change the default password to a highly complex one, to create encryption WPA2 with AES (WEP and WPA are cracked), to lock out other computers via MAC address, turn off ping and remote access an create just a guest internet access only.



    I also find AirPorts necessity to rely upon the time from a computer especially annoying. If the time is wrong, your Airport doesn't work.



    Since I ditched my Airport I have been much happier.





    Time Machine:



    A lifesaver for those newbies who don't know anything about backing up. However since Time Machine isn't bootable, it's a pale solution to simply cloning your entire boot drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or other which is much superior as it also provides hardware protection as you can 'hold option' and boot from it.



    A very good and thoughtful post!



    A few comments about Time Machine and backups:



    Although Time Machine backups don't give you a directly bootable solution, you can combine an OSX reinstall with a TM restore. Although I use SuperDuper or CC myself, that's more thinking than most people are going to devote to backup and recovery (unfortunate but true). This is more about recovery from a catastrophic failure.



    The other use for Time Machine backup is the pseudo-point-in-time recoverability for those who may not know which version of a file they need to revert to or exactly when a file was deleted. This is more along the lines of archival recovery for inadvertent data loss and is a different problem from a catastrophic failure.



    For those who don't care to be bothered about backups or recovery (and recovery is the real issue), Time Machine backups provide a pretty good integrated solution for most people, and does a pretty reasonable job of tackling both recoverability scenarios. Certainly better than is otherwise accessible to the masses.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by apfel View Post


    Airport Extreme

    = IMHO a product for true fanboys

    = Missing Features (e.g. QoS)

    = Missing Web-Interface (hello Linux)

    = No Firmware-Support for OpenFirmwares like DD-WRT or Tomato

    = but it looks nice -> very important for true fanboys



    Meh. These are niche issues. Nobody but the Linux crowd needs yet another poorly laid out router web interface when a proper application is available, and anyone who wants to run open firmwares like WRT, etc. already knows which routers support that. I don't think the, what?, two thousand affected users are really on the Apple radar because they already have their own solution and their isn't a lot of ROI from that crowd in the first place. QoS would be a nice addition, but is probably not well understood by most people who would buy one of these and wouldn't likely be properly setup by the average person tinkering with QoS settings. AE is a pretty good solution for the masses who just want their stuff to work, and that's a much larger slice of the pie than just "fanboys". But you are entitled to your opinion if it somehow makes you feel superior.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by columbus View Post


    No ADSL modem either.



    Most of the devices on sale from Linksys by Cisco, Netgear, Belkin etc. have built in ADSL modems.



    Worthless unless you are one of the few who actually need it. It would just add another SKU. Then another for a DOSCIS 2 or 3 version? Or price the thing up really high to include both DSL and cable modem support to try to cover all bases. And what about FiOS? Or satellite? No, better to let the ISPs sell/rent/give away that technology and stick to the core router technology. I don't want something so integrated that I have to upgrade my router just to be able to upgrade my ISP modem, whatever it may be.
  • Reply 34 of 211
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wtbard View Post


    Another strike against Apple TV is that it primarily only works with HDTVs. That really limits your market. It may take 5 to 10 years for that market share to become more accepted.



    What in the world are you babbling on about? Standard definition TVs no longer exist. CRT TVs no longer exist. Nobody manufacturers either one any longer. The only type TV you can buy today is HD, regardless of screen size. I see old crt and sd television sets out on the curb for trash pickup every single day. And the people who still have and use them are definitely not interested in any new fangled gadgets anyway. That's why they still have obsolete technology in the first place.



    I mean, really, where are you coming from on this? I'd really like to know.
  • Reply 35 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by columbus View Post


    No ADSL modem either.



    Most of the devices on sale from Linksys by Cisco, Netgear, Belkin etc. have built in ADSL modems.



    A built in ADSL modem. Seriously?! Only person I know who has ADSL is my mom. When you say "most devices on sale" you do actually mean like on clearance sale, unwanted stock, right?
  • Reply 36 of 211
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?



    Absolutely. Airport routers have a far more intuitive setup and configuration than anything I've ever seen on the PC market. The problems are:



    1) Apple don't seem to do a very good job of promoting this ease of use compared to others



    2) Many consumers are cheapskates and are hard-pressed to pay extra for elegant design and ease of use



    3) Wifi networks are often installed by "the cable guy" or some other "PC guy", who are unlikely to recommend an Apple product.



    I also think Airport Express is an awesome product, but with wifi access becoming more commonplace, they're not as essential a travel accessory as they used to be.
  • Reply 37 of 211
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)



    Netflix is neutral, so it has much more content and is the best value around. It's sweet that it remembers where I left off in a movie or TV series, even a few days later. It remembers what I've watched etc.



    On the other hand, Steve Jobs is the largest shareholder of Disney, which owns ABC so there is a conflict/competition issue from other content generators. They don't want Apple to get a monopoly like they did with the music industry. Also rentals from iTunes is just too expensive in comparison.





    I routinely use my PS3 and a Netflix disk to stream shows and movies to my HDTV anytime I want to watch for only $13 or so a month unlimited.



    Not all the content is stream-able though, some require a real DVD, so those get sent in the snailmail.







    As far as Airport: What I feel occurs is new folks get a Mac and realize they need a internet connection at home. So they call the phone or cable company and they come and install a dual device (modem and wifi in one) or a PC geek friend sets one up for them with a device from online or local store.



    To properly set up and harden a router does require some knowledge which may be outside of the typical Apple Store customers learning curve.



    To change the default password to a highly complex one, to create encryption WPA2 with AES (WEP and WPA are cracked), to lock out other computers via MAC address, turn off ping and remote access an create just a guest internet access only.



    I also find AirPorts necessity to rely upon the time from a computer especially annoying. If the time is wrong, your Airport doesn't work.



    Since I ditched my Airport I have been much happier.





    Time Machine:



    A lifesaver for those newbies who don't know anything about backing up. However since Time Machine isn't bootable, it's a pale solution to simply cloning your entire boot drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or other which is much superior as it also provides hardware protection as you can 'hold option' and boot from it.



    What a tour de force of holier-than-thou, elitist mumbo-jumbo. What's it like looking down your nose at Apple users from your pseudo-tech perch on Mount Olympus? I mean, every single one of your techno-babble talking points is laughable.
  • Reply 38 of 211
    ggfggf Posts: 42member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?



    I have had an Airport extreme for just under 12 months and like it much better than the Belkin Unit I had before. For me the Airport has several advantages - It has better range,is easier to set up - and provides print routing and NAS.



    These may be a niche functions market but they work very well for me (I use a Newertech Mini stack which fits perfectly under the extreme)



    I particularly like the access control functions are simple and flexible. I have several teenage children with a mixture of laptops and ipod touch devices and the ability to easily and flexibly control the times they access the internet is important. Airport extreme does this simpler than any other device I have seen. The logs and statistics function also is helpful to see who is doing what.



    Just like anyone else I would like to see it cheaper, but just like other apple gear the extra $ mean better functionality. I would not hesitate to buy another one







    I disagree with the comments about difficulties in setting up secure access etc - If you understand what you are doing the Airport extreme is very easy to use
  • Reply 39 of 211
    x38x38 Posts: 97member
    I've said it before and I'll keep saying it:



    Apple TV must have a DVR function before it can achieve significant sales. That's probably not the only thing that needs to change on it, but it is a bare minimum.



    Apple has shown some very interesting patent applications along the DVR line a few years ago - they are long overdue for release.



    Sadly, it would appear that Steve Jobs sold his soul to the TV studios by not bringing an Apple branded DVR function to market in exchange for making shows available on itunes. Personally I'd rather see itunes sacrifice show availability in exchange for a DVR built into iLife and Apple TV if it has to be an either / or choice.
  • Reply 40 of 211
    al_bundyal_bundy Posts: 1,525member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


    Absolutely. Airport routers have a far more intuitive setup and configuration than anything I've ever seen on the PC market. The problems are:



    1) Apple don't seem to do a very good job of promoting this ease of use compared to others



    2) Many consumers are cheapskates and are hard-pressed to pay extra for elegant design and ease of use



    3) Wifi networks are often installed by "the cable guy" or some other "PC guy", who are unlikely to recommend an Apple product.



    I also think Airport Express is an awesome product, but with wifi access becoming more commonplace, they're not as essential a travel accessory as they used to be.



    ease of use is nice, what about security? and not just encryption. can you disable SSID broadcasts, enable MAC filtering, lessen broadcasting power to lessen your range and other features that aren't intuitive?
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