Apple's product matrix, un-Jobs-like

*l++ · 06-26-2002, 04:57 PM

When Steve came back to Apple he denounced Apple's product matrix as overcomplicated and overcostly. His vision was of 4 product lines, desktop/mobile for consumer/professionals.

But because of circumstances (some within, and some beyond Apple's control), the number of product lines now stands at 7:

Consumer:
- iBook
- iMac G3
- eMac
- iMac G4

Professional:
- PowerBook
- PowerMac
- XServe

While the Xserve is here to stay, and can make a new category of its own (Servers), Apple clearly will want to do something about the consumer line.

The number of machines in the consumer line has grown to what it is in order to touch a wide range of price points (pretty much the same reason, that created the confusion pre-Jobs).

Apple now has no less than 3 different types of motherboards, the iBook/iMac G3, the eMac/iMac/PowerBook/PowerMac and the XServe. This is both costly and problematic from a logistics aspect.

As the new motherboard XServe/new G4s (G5 ?) comes into being. I expect Apple to retire one of the other two. This would imply that the iMac G3/current iBook will die by MWSF.

The eMac will just have to stay, because schools want CRTs and if you are going to make it, you might as well sell it to anyone who wants one.

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: *l++ ]

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: *l++ ]

sizzle chest · 06-26-2002, 05:01 PM

Both iMacs (G3 and G4), plus the eMac, are consumer desktops. As you say, the xServe represents an entry into a new market, not an expansion of the existing grid.

I'm sure Apple will drop the G3 iMacs soon, anyway, so the eMac can simply be seen as a CRT version of the iMac product line.

**hmurchison** · 06-26-2002, 05:13 PM

bullshit..the UMA motherboards do not vary that much. It's the ASICS that are costly to design.

The product Matrix is fine

frawgz · 06-26-2002, 05:18 PM

Apple's 4-product matrix was concerned originally with cleaning house and getting Apple back to the basics. With those solidly established, Apple can now fill in the spaces in between and concentrate on growth.

While there is room for some streamlining, Apple's products now each have their own specific markets, for the most part.

Their situation now is nowhere near the confusing mess from post-Jobs/pre-Jobs days.

JCG · 06-26-2002, 05:21 PM

The 15" iMac CRT could go away...but it does offer Apple the flexability in their products to appeal to more consumers.

If anything I feel that Apple needs another consumer geared desktop (without a monitor and with an upgradable video...as in the Cube) to appeal to a consumer that does not want to spend the money for a full blown tower, but dosnt want to be limited to the stock video for the life of the computer.

I would not be supprised to see a high end professional model added to the PowerMac line either. (a Quad?) This would appeal to the high end video market that apple has been buying up intelectual property in over the past year...

The word is not a 1 size fits all, and Apple knows this. As long as they dont over-extend their product matrix they are fine....

erbium · 06-26-2002, 05:22 PM

I would have to agree with Frawgz.

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: erbium ]

*l++ · 06-26-2002, 06:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
bullshit..the UMA motherboards do not vary that much. It's the ASICS that are costly to design.
<hr></blockquote>

For all practical purposes, the ASICs ARE the motherboard. The G3 uses the 60x bus, while the G4 uses MAXBUS, and it seems likely that the next G4/G5 will use a different/updated one.

If Apple's current north/southbridge ASICs (the heart of the UMA-1 board) can interface to both G3 and G4, then you may be right, but if they are different, they will kill one bus support.

I say the pinouts are different and hence the ASICs are different. I may be wrong, but it makes sense.

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: *l++ ]

disine · 06-26-2002, 07:20 PM

I think what's needed are two desktop form factors a la the 7600 and 9600. A reasonablely priced, conservatively spec'd, somewhat expandable mini tower and a serious professional tower for graphics / audio / video / 3D apps. Basically, keep the G4's we have now minus the PCI slots on the same MOBO starting at around $1000. The real pro model would start at $2500-$3000. That way the Pro Mac wouldn't have to try to fit in the sub $2000 arena and would be free to implement newer more expensive technologies. Obviously the $1000 price would depend on the G4 iMac price/value.

My suggested Grid (eMac, iMac same to me)

iMac / iBook

PowerMac / PowerBook

ProMac / XServe

Just an opinion.

BuonRotto · 06-26-2002, 08:38 PM

Can we please get over the Product-Matrix-as-Gospel hump?

SuperMatt · 06-26-2002, 09:08 PM

I think that they should lower the price on the G3 iMac to $599, or $499 if they can. Then they should sell them at KMart, Wal-Mart, and CostCo just like they sell cheap HP machines at that locations. If they sell like hotcakes, they could sell the nifty high-priced iMacs with superdrives and flat screens nearby.

Blizaine · 06-26-2002, 09:09 PM

long live the Performa...

j/k

MacJedai · 06-26-2002, 10:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SuperMatt:
I think that they should lower the price on the G3 iMac to $599, or $499 if they can. Then they should sell them at KMart, Wal-Mart, and CostCo just like they sell cheap HP machines at that locations. If they sell like hotcakes, they could sell the nifty high-priced iMacs with superdrives and flat screens nearby.<hr></blockquote>

Ditto, use the G3 iMac to develop market share. It will also keep IBM making chips for them. Moto can make the G4's ... and maybe IBM/Moto can make Apple's version of the G5 (mentioned that way, because all the rumors seem to be a mish-mash of Moto-IBM concepts and the only parts that appear to fit are the modular e500 standards that allow multiple companies to make similar chips <oh my, what AIM was originally supposed to be!!>. Apple can "trickle down" the tech from the "Pro" machines to consumer level, and concentrate on pushing the envelope with the "Pro" level.

Dignan · 06-26-2002, 11:39 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SuperMatt:
I think that they should lower the price on the G3 iMac to $599, or $499 if they can. Then they should sell them at KMart, Wal-Mart, and CostCo just like they sell cheap HP machines at that locations. If they sell like hotcakes, they could sell the nifty high-priced iMacs with superdrives and flat screens nearby.<hr></blockquote>

Selling computers at Kmart, Wal-Mart and the like will do more damage to Apple's image than good. Anyone who buys an imac at wal-mart isn't going to go to an apple store a month later to by a powerbook because they like the mac experience. These stores are only interested in moving boxes, the margins are so slim on macs that its not worth their time or floor space to shelf them. People aren't just going to switch to apple because of a blue light special, customers need to experience the mac, touch it use it just like at an apple store, who will help them at wal-mart
Sue-Anne from housewares give me a break. The only big box non electronics retailer I could see successfully selling iMacs would be Ikea - people buy into the lifestyle B.S. and actually believe that Ikea's cheap ugly furniture needs to be accented by a stylish computer. - reminds me of fightclub - you can't just buy one piece of ugly Ikea furniture you need to buy the damn floor display.

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

JRC · 06-26-2002, 11:48 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dignan:


Selling computers at Kmart, Wal-Mart and the like will do more damage to Apple's image than good. Anyone who buys an imac at wal-mart isn't going to go to an apple store a month later to by a powerbook because they like the mac experience. These stores are only interested in moving boxes, the margins are so slim on macs that its not worth their time or floor space to shelf them. People aren't just going to switch to apple because of a blue light special, customers need to experience the mac, touch it use it just like at an apple store, who will help them at wal-mart
Sue-Anne from housewares give me a break. The only big box non electronics retailer I could see successfully selling iMacs would be Ikea - people buy into the lifestyle B.S. and actually believe that Ikea's cheap ugly furniture needs to be accented by a stylish computer. - reminds me of fightclub - you can't just buy one piece of ugly Ikea furniture you need to buy the damn floor display.

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Well, Apple has sold iMacs at Sam's, part of Wal-Mart. I don't recall it hurting anything too much, do you?

Dignan · 06-27-2002, 09:04 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JRC:


Well, Apple has sold iMacs at Sam's, part of Wal-Mart. I don't recall it hurting anything too much, do you?<hr></blockquote>

It didn't hurt anything, cause it didn't do anything. Sam's was moving boxes not marketing a great product, how many PC folks do you think switched to mac because they could buy it at sams. I bet most sales went to people who already had a mac at home but didn't want their kids messing with it, so they bought them a cheap imac.

Why doesn't Sams still sell them or any other mac product?

Mack Damon · 06-27-2002, 11:29 AM

<ahem>

I think IKEA kicks ass. Now I do admit, the $15 coffee tables kinda suck, but my $1400 entertainment center is the balls. IKEA is very much a culture, like Apple. I drive 1 hour out of my way when I'm in Dallas to check out an Apple store, and I drive 1 hour out of my way whenever I'm in Houston or LA to visit IKEA. Your apologies are accepted.

Dignan · 06-27-2002, 11:43 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Mack Damon:
<ahem>

I think IKEA kicks ass. Now I do admit, the $15 coffee tables kinda suck, but my $1400 entertainment center is the balls. IKEA is very much a culture, like Apple. I drive 1 hour out of my way when I'm in Dallas to check out an Apple store, and I drive 1 hour out of my way whenever I'm in Houston or LA to visit IKEA. Your apologies are accepted.<hr></blockquote>

You just proved my point, people love the whole culture thing that's why ikea could sell macs but not Kmart and wal-mart.

p.s. Sure ikea has style but you can't honestly tell me that they sell quality. I have never seen an ikea desk on the antique roadshow.

thuh Freak · 06-27-2002, 12:42 PM

[quote]I have never seen an ikea desk on the antique roadshow.<hr></blockquote>

i don't think iKea stuff qualifies as antiques. i like the iKea stores, because its the only place in the states you can get a `japp` bar or a bag of `daims` (swedish candies). damn those r gewd.

a little more on topic now: the shytty iMac is gonna get dropped (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday). i think the lineup is definitely going to stay extended (no longer 2x2), but i dont think it'll go much further. prolly Low Desktop (eMac), Mid Desktop (iMac), Hi Desktop (pMac). Then some books like, Low Book (2b released? eBook?), Mid Book (iBook), Hi Book (pBook). The xserve (as i see it), can't really have a laptop translation, so it would be in a separate scheme.

CodeWarrior · 06-27-2002, 04:10 PM

I'm positive that in 2003 we will see The Matrix Reloaded. Bet on it.

06-26-2002, 04:57 PM	#1
*l++ Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 129	Apple's product matrix, un-Jobs-like When Steve came back to Apple he denounced Apple's product matrix as overcomplicated and overcostly. His vision was of 4 product lines, desktop/mobile for consumer/professionals. But because of circumstances (some within, and some beyond Apple's control), the number of product lines now stands at 7: Consumer: - iBook - iMac G3 - eMac - iMac G4 Professional: - PowerBook - PowerMac - XServe While the Xserve is here to stay, and can make a new category of its own (Servers), Apple clearly will want to do something about the consumer line. The number of machines in the consumer line has grown to what it is in order to touch a wide range of price points (pretty much the same reason, that created the confusion pre-Jobs). Apple now has no less than 3 different types of motherboards, the iBook/iMac G3, the eMac/iMac/PowerBook/PowerMac and the XServe. This is both costly and problematic from a logistics aspect. As the new motherboard XServe/new G4s (G5 ?) comes into being. I expect Apple to retire one of the other two. This would imply that the iMac G3/current iBook will die by MWSF. The eMac will just have to stay, because schools want CRTs and if you are going to make it, you might as well sell it to anyone who wants one. [ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: l++ ] [ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: l++ ]</p>

06-26-2002, 05:13 PM	#3
hmurchison Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,463	bullshit..the UMA motherboards do not vary that much. It's the ASICS that are costly to design. The product Matrix is fine Mac mini - 2 , iPod Nano- 1 G4 Cube - 5 , iPod Shuffle -1 Bloggity Blog

06-26-2002, 05:22 PM	#6
erbium Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Vancouver Posts: 353	I would have to agree with Frawgz. [ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: erbium ]</p> MacBook Pro C2D 2.16GHz, 15" Matte, 2GB RAM, 120GB HD, iPod nano 2GB Black.

06-26-2002, 06:08 PM	#7
*l++ Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 129	[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison: <strong>bullshit..the UMA motherboards do not vary that much. It's the ASICS that are costly to design. </strong><hr></blockquote> For all practical purposes, the ASICs ARE the motherboard. The G3 uses the 60x bus, while the G4 uses MAXBUS, and it seems likely that the next G4/G5 will use a different/updated one. If Apple's current north/southbridge ASICs (the heart of the UMA-1 board) can interface to both G3 and G4, then you may be right, but if they are different, they will kill one bus support. I say the pinouts are different and hence the ASICs are different. I may be wrong, but it makes sense. [ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: *l++ ]</p>

06-26-2002, 09:09 PM	#11
Blizaine Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 238	long live the Performa... j/k wow my very own signature

06-26-2002, 05:01 PM	#2
sizzle chest Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,133	Both iMacs (G3 and G4), plus the eMac, are consumer desktops. As you say, the xServe represents an entry into a new market, not an expansion of the existing grid. I'm sure Apple will drop the G3 iMacs soon, anyway, so the eMac can simply be seen as a CRT version of the iMac product line.

06-26-2002, 05:18 PM	#4
frawgz Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 545	Apple's 4-product matrix was concerned originally with cleaning house and getting Apple back to the basics. With those solidly established, Apple can now fill in the spaces in between and concentrate on growth. While there is room for some streamlining, Apple's products now each have their own specific markets, for the most part. Their situation now is nowhere near the confusing mess from post-Jobs/pre-Jobs days.

06-26-2002, 05:21 PM	#5
JCG Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 757	The 15" iMac CRT could go away...but it does offer Apple the flexability in their products to appeal to more consumers. If anything I feel that Apple needs another consumer geared desktop (without a monitor and with an upgradable video...as in the Cube) to appeal to a consumer that does not want to spend the money for a full blown tower, but dosnt want to be limited to the stock video for the life of the computer. I would not be supprised to see a high end professional model added to the PowerMac line either. (a Quad?) This would appeal to the high end video market that apple has been buying up intelectual property in over the past year... The word is not a 1 size fits all, and Apple knows this. As long as they dont over-extend their product matrix they are fine....

06-26-2002, 07:20 PM	#8
disine Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 6	I think what's needed are two desktop form factors a la the 7600 and 9600. A reasonablely priced, conservatively spec'd, somewhat expandable mini tower and a serious professional tower for graphics / audio / video / 3D apps. Basically, keep the G4's we have now minus the PCI slots on the same MOBO starting at around $1000. The real pro model would start at $2500-$3000. That way the Pro Mac wouldn't have to try to fit in the sub $2000 arena and would be free to implement newer more expensive technologies. Obviously the $1000 price would depend on the G4 iMac price/value. My suggested Grid (eMac, iMac same to me) iMac / iBook PowerMac / PowerBook ProMac / XServe Just an opinion.

06-26-2002, 08:38 PM	#9
BuonRotto Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 6,231	Can we please get over the Product-Matrix-as-Gospel hump?

06-26-2002, 09:08 PM	#10
SuperMatt Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 54	I think that they should lower the price on the G3 iMac to $599, or $499 if they can. Then they should sell them at KMart, Wal-Mart, and CostCo just like they sell cheap HP machines at that locations. If they sell like hotcakes, they could sell the nifty high-priced iMacs with superdrives and flat screens nearby.

06-26-2002, 10:34 PM	#12
MacJedai Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 261	[quote]Originally posted by SuperMatt: <strong>I think that they should lower the price on the G3 iMac to $599, or $499 if they can. Then they should sell them at KMart, Wal-Mart, and CostCo just like they sell cheap HP machines at that locations. If they sell like hotcakes, they could sell the nifty high-priced iMacs with superdrives and flat screens nearby.</strong><hr></blockquote> Ditto, use the G3 iMac to develop market share. It will also keep IBM making chips for them. Moto can make the G4's ... and maybe IBM/Moto can make Apple's version of the G5 (mentioned that way, because all the rumors seem to be a mish-mash of Moto-IBM concepts and the only parts that appear to fit are the modular e500 standards that allow multiple companies to make similar chips <oh my, what AIM was originally supposed to be!!>. Apple can "trickle down" the tech from the "Pro" machines to consumer level, and concentrate on pushing the envelope with the "Pro" level. Life is Full of Choices ... The Consequences remain to be seen!

06-26-2002, 11:39 PM	#13
Dignan Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 8	[quote]Originally posted by SuperMatt: <strong>I think that they should lower the price on the G3 iMac to $599, or $499 if they can. Then they should sell them at KMart, Wal-Mart, and CostCo just like they sell cheap HP machines at that locations. If they sell like hotcakes, they could sell the nifty high-priced iMacs with superdrives and flat screens nearby.</strong><hr></blockquote> Selling computers at Kmart, Wal-Mart and the like will do more damage to Apple's image than good. Anyone who buys an imac at wal-mart isn't going to go to an apple store a month later to by a powerbook because they like the mac experience. These stores are only interested in moving boxes, the margins are so slim on macs that its not worth their time or floor space to shelf them. People aren't just going to switch to apple because of a blue light special, customers need to experience the mac, touch it use it just like at an apple store, who will help them at wal-mart Sue-Anne from housewares give me a break. The only big box non electronics retailer I could see successfully selling iMacs would be Ikea - people buy into the lifestyle B.S. and actually believe that Ikea's cheap ugly furniture needs to be accented by a stylish computer. - reminds me of fightclub - you can't just buy one piece of ugly Ikea furniture you need to buy the damn floor display. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> "On the run from Johnny law, it ain't no trip to Cleveland"

06-26-2002, 11:48 PM	#14
JRC Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 778	[quote]Originally posted by Dignan: <strong> Selling computers at Kmart, Wal-Mart and the like will do more damage to Apple's image than good. Anyone who buys an imac at wal-mart isn't going to go to an apple store a month later to by a powerbook because they like the mac experience. These stores are only interested in moving boxes, the margins are so slim on macs that its not worth their time or floor space to shelf them. People aren't just going to switch to apple because of a blue light special, customers need to experience the mac, touch it use it just like at an apple store, who will help them at wal-mart Sue-Anne from housewares give me a break. The only big box non electronics retailer I could see successfully selling iMacs would be Ikea - people buy into the lifestyle B.S. and actually believe that Ikea's cheap ugly furniture needs to be accented by a stylish computer. - reminds me of fightclub - you can't just buy one piece of ugly Ikea furniture you need to buy the damn floor display. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Well, Apple has sold iMacs at Sam's, part of Wal-Mart. I don't recall it hurting anything too much, do you? Nov 98 - Earliest Registered User on record

06-27-2002, 09:04 AM	#15
Dignan Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 8	[quote]Originally posted by JRC: <strong> Well, Apple has sold iMacs at Sam's, part of Wal-Mart. I don't recall it hurting anything too much, do you?</strong><hr></blockquote> It didn't hurt anything, cause it didn't do anything. Sam's was moving boxes not marketing a great product, how many PC folks do you think switched to mac because they could buy it at sams. I bet most sales went to people who already had a mac at home but didn't want their kids messing with it, so they bought them a cheap imac. Why doesn't Sams still sell them or any other mac product? "On the run from Johnny law, it ain't no trip to Cleveland"

06-27-2002, 11:29 AM	#16
Mack Damon Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 65	<ahem> I think IKEA kicks ass. Now I do admit, the $15 coffee tables kinda suck, but my $1400 entertainment center is the balls. IKEA is very much a culture, like Apple. I drive 1 hour out of my way when I'm in Dallas to check out an Apple store, and I drive 1 hour out of my way whenever I'm in Houston or LA to visit IKEA. Your apologies are accepted. People think Microsoft is the answer. Microsoft is just the question, 'NO' is the answer.

06-27-2002, 11:43 AM	#17
Dignan Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 8	[quote]Originally posted by Mack Damon: <strong><ahem> I think IKEA kicks ass. Now I do admit, the $15 coffee tables kinda suck, but my $1400 entertainment center is the balls. IKEA is very much a culture, like Apple. I drive 1 hour out of my way when I'm in Dallas to check out an Apple store, and I drive 1 hour out of my way whenever I'm in Houston or LA to visit IKEA. Your apologies are accepted.</strong><hr></blockquote> You just proved my point, people love the whole culture thing that's why ikea could sell macs but not Kmart and wal-mart. p.s. Sure ikea has style but you can't honestly tell me that they sell quality. I have never seen an ikea desk on the antique roadshow. "On the run from Johnny law, it ain't no trip to Cleveland"

06-27-2002, 12:42 PM	#18
thuh Freak Revolutionary Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Feal so soo is idle, efen hait m'i rohk en rowl Posts: 2,664	[quote]I have never seen an ikea desk on the antique roadshow.<hr></blockquote> i don't think iKea stuff qualifies as antiques. i like the iKea stores, because its the only place in the states you can get a `japp` bar or a bag of `daims` (swedish candies). damn those r gewd. a little more on topic now: the shytty iMac is gonna get dropped (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday). i think the lineup is definitely going to stay extended (no longer 2x2), but i dont think it'll go much further. prolly Low Desktop (eMac), Mid Desktop (iMac), Hi Desktop (pMac). Then some books like, Low Book (2b released? eBook?), Mid Book (iBook), Hi Book (pBook). The xserve (as i see it), can't really have a laptop translation, so it would be in a separate scheme. I am appalled to be surrounded by the liberal media that is destroying America.

06-27-2002, 04:10 PM	#19
CodeWarrior Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 179	I'm positive that in 2003 we will see The Matrix Reloaded. Bet on it.

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