Massive Pro-Choice March

[sammi jo]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040425/nysu015_1.html

Will Bush call this one a focus group? 1,150,000 people in the Mall...even the police, who apparently don't do official crowd counts these days, estimated up to 800,000. I wish I had been there, but DC is a long way for a weekend jaunt.

Interestingly, there were 16 people arrested, one for throwing ink at protesters, and several from the Christian Defense Coalition, for demonstrating withouit a permit. A permit????? Now this truly sucks... why should Americans need a fzcking permit to protest? Imagine if those organizing protests (such as in Boston) in the 1770s decided against it because they didnt have permits? Is the US not a free speech zone these days?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/04/25/abo....ap/index.html

As much as I find religious fundamentalists of all brands a menace to civilization, they still have the right of freedom of speech and assembly. In America that is.

[Kirkland]

A permit is needed because a protest can obstruct traffic, and perhaps lead to an altercation. People have the right to walk down the street, you know, so you can't just have people blocking the way whenever they decide to set down a row of soapboxes.

Usually, permits are extremely easy to get for any political speech event, and are only used so that the city is aware of where to allocate manpower and where to watch for potential powder kegs.

If your permit request is denied, and you believe it to be for reasons of political content, you can seek redress for such injuries through the courts, and almost certainly win.

[Matsu]

I only caught a flash of some of the rhetoric from the pro-choice side. I try not to post politics anymore, but I must say, I found the logical contortions of the pro-abortionists particularly vulgar.

If anything they moved me more to the pro-life side, though I haven't really been satisfied by their arguments either.

[Existence]

Of course you didn't. You're a male and want to stay at the top of the food chain.

[Matsu]

Is that sarcasm? You'll have to clarify, I'm trying to watch a hockey game and can't give AI my full attention.

[Scott]

Can you give an example Matsu?

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by Matsu [/i]

I only caught a flash of some of the rhetoric from the pro-choice side. I try not to post politics anymore, but I must say, I found the logical contortions of the pro-abortionists particularly vulgar.

If anything they moved me more to the pro-life side, though I haven't really been satisfied by their arguments either. [/B]

It's "pro-abortion" now, huh? Nice little bit of emotional blackmail there, very manipulative. You find me a woman who is pro-abortion, and I'll send you an alien from Area 51.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Matsu
I only caught a flash of some of the rhetoric from the pro-choice side. I try not to post politics anymore, but I must say, I found the logical contortions of the pro-abortionists particularly vulgar.

If anything they moved me more to the pro-life side, though I haven't really been satisfied by their arguments either.

What arguments?

[bunge]

Originally posted by sammi jo
You find me a woman who is pro-abortion, and I'll send you an alien from Area 51.

BR, are you a woman?

[Matsu]

I think pro-abortion is not an unfair assesment. How much effort from the pro-choice side goes into helping those women who choose to carry their pregnancies to term? Perhaps it's all down to politics: you can't win that propaganda contest by giving too much time to the other side, thus highlighting the actual "choice" before women. The pro-life side is a little clearer about their position, they are anti-abortion. Some of their membership is not exactly pro-life, but they aren't about choice, they have no obligation to promote both sides, these 'lives' are non-negotiable -- neither the women, nor the unborn.

The slight of hand comes when this is hedged as a women's rights issue, or a quality of life issue for women. It isn't. The conclusion may surprise people, it may leave room for choice in fact, but it is an ethical issue, one whose realities have been clouded by two equally disfunctional arguments.

I don't care to sort it all out for you, because it's a lot of typing, but there are very good reasons to be less than satisfied with both sides.

I do enjoy the propaganda, those are great diversions, and I always make a note of valuable tricks when I see them.

[BR]

Originally posted by bunge
BR, are you a woman?

No but it sure seems like it's your time of the month with your voracity and (lack of) quality of posts of late.

[alcimedes]

We are....

that's better read "I am".

gets dangerous when you start speaking for everyone there.

[dmz]

I think the banner that read:

"Hey GEORGE! Stay out of my BUSH!"

...was quite thoughtful.

I've heard 3-year old's temper tantrums with more depth.

[groverat]

The slight of hand comes when this is hedged as a women's rights issue, or a quality of life issue for women. It isn't.

What is it then?

[BR]

Originally posted by dmz
I think the banner that read:

"Hey GEORGE! Stay out of my BUSH!"

...was quite thoughtful.

I've heard 3-year old's temper tantrums with more depth.

What's wrong with that? It sums up the situation quite succinctly.

Was the temper tantrum that of your daughter upset she isn't allowed to pee?

[Matsu]

Originally posted by groverat
What is it then?

Responsibility, that will also ask more of men, a lot more than they have had to pay in some cases.

[shetline]

Originally posted by dmz
I've heard 3-year old's temper tantrums with more depth.

The pro-life sloganeering is any better?

The abortion issue is way too complex to summarize into banners or bumper stickers, regardless of what stance you take. If you want to use the fact that one side's placards don't make complete and compelling logical arguments, keep in mind that sword cuts equally both ways.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BR
Was the temper tantrum that of your daughter upset she isn't allowed to pee?

Actually my daughter is a bit more articulate than pro-abort rehtoric.

[BR]

Originally posted by shetline
The pro-life sloganeering is any better?

The abortion issue is way too complex to summarize into banners or bumper stickers, regardless of what stance you take. If you want to use the fact that one side's placards don't make complete and compelling logical arguments, keep in mind that sword cuts equally both ways.

I would disagree. It can be summed up pretty neatly.

Pro-choice: George stay out of my Bush.
Anti-choice: Abortion is murder.

Those cover about 99% of the people involved.

[BR]

Originally posted by dmz
Actually my daughter is a bit more articulate than pro-abort rehtoric.

It's pro-choice. One can be against abortion personally and still be for the choice of others to make that ethical decision on their own.

But the real issue is can she really remain articulate when she's about to pee her pants because you won't let her into the bathroom with the naughty scribble?

[dmz]

Originally posted by shetline
The pro-life sloganeering is any better?

The abortion issue is way too complex....

I don't understand the complexity argument---I understand the female control aspect...which makes sense in a homicidal kinda way---but I don't understand what is "complex" with saving unwanted children.

Scientifically speaking, once you achive independent DNA/independent development, you have a human individual---whether you want to nurture him/her or not.

[shetline]

Originally posted by BR
I would disagree. It can be summed up pretty neatly.

Pro-choice: George stay out of my Bush.
Anti-choice: Abortion is murder.

Those cover about 99% of the people involved.

Neither of those are compelling, logical arguments. The second is designed for more emotional impact, but that hardly means it makes a better case.

The first is a mildly clever phrasing of what's wanted in terms of policy. Obviously the full case as to why the desired policy (government staying out of reproductive rights) should be followed is not made.

The second is simply a statement of a professed belief. Obviously the case is not made why abortion should be considered murder, unless of course you believe in proof by vigorous assertion.

[BR]

Originally posted by shetline
Neither of those are compelling, logical arguments. The second is designed for more emotional impact, but that hardly means it makes a better case.

The first is a mildly clever phrasing of what's wanted in terms of policy. Obviously the full case as to why the desired policy (government staying out of reproductive rights) should be followed is not made.

The second is simply a statement of a professed belief. Obviously the case is not made why abortion should be considered murder, unless of course you believe in proof by vigorous assertion.

Those arguments sum up what each side generally believes. The pro-choice side for the most part believes the decision should be left up to the woman as there are too many different ethical interpretations for one to dominate the rest. The anti-choice side firmly believes that abortion is murder and therefore should be entirely outlawed.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BR
It's pro-choice. One can be against abortion personally and still be for the choice of others to make that ethical decision on their own.

But the real issue is can she really remain articulate when she's about to pee her pants because you won't let her into the bathroom with the naughty scribble?

[for the 2nd time:]
actually she said she was okay with it....and.....it was a 3-foot by 4-foot mural that detailed oral sex with a "massive cock".

For those who have to think about such things.........had I deliberatly shown my daughter a printed version off what was on that wall, CPS could have removed her from my home.

Not nice.

[BR]

Originally posted by dmz
I don't understand the complexity argument---I understand the female control aspect...which makes sense in a homicidal kinda way---but I don't understand what is "complex" with saving unwanted children.

Scientifically speaking, once you achive independent DNA/independent development, you have a human individual---whether you want to nurture him/her or not.

Others would argue that a mass of cells without brainwaves is just a mass of cells.

[BR]

Originally posted by dmz
[for the 2nd time:]
actually she said she was okay with it....and.....it was a 3-foot by 4-foot mural that deatailed oral sex with a "massive cock".

For those who have to think about such things.........had I deliberatly shown my daughter a printed version off what was on that wall, CPS could have removed her from my home.

Not nice.

OH NO A COCK! If she's such a good little girl tell her to ignore the picture on the wall. And frankly I don't see what harm can come to a child from seeing a picture of a cock.

-Daddy, what's that?
-Sweety, it's just a picture of a man's private part. Some people think it's funny to draw them. You are better than that.
-OK Daddy. Thanks for letting me pee.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BR
Others would argue that a mass of cells without brainwaves is just a mass of cells.

Geeez Louise........... the "mass of cells" controls it's own development and has a complete human DNA fingerprint.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BR
OH NO A COCK! If she's such a good little girl tell her to ignore the picture on the wall. And frankly I don't see what harm can come to a child from seeing a picture of a cock.

-Daddy, what's that?
-Sweety, it's just a picture of a man's private part. Some people think it's funny to draw them. You are better than that.
-OK Daddy. Thanks for letting me pee.

BR, you couldn't see the "massive cock"---it was in the other persons mouth.

[BR]

Originally posted by dmz
BR, you couldn't see the "massive cock"---it was in the other persons mouth.

So?

[BR]

Originally posted by dmz
Geeez Louise........... the "mass of cells" controls it's own development and has a complete human DNA fingerprint.

So do cancer cells.

[Scott]

Originally posted by BR
...
-Daddy, what's that?
-Sweety, it's just a picture of a man's private part. Some people think it's funny to draw them. You are better than that.
-OK Daddy. Thanks for letting me pee.

Sounds more like

-Daddy what's that?
-A woman chocking on a massive cock
-Why does she have a massive cock in her mouth
-I think it's more a reflection of mens sexual fantasies
-Men like to pretend that woman are choked to death by massive cocks
-Well no see it's sexual fantasy and you see men like to pretend about thing they want woman to do but it's all just imagination and they don't really want to choke women with massive cocks.
-Do you have a massive cock daddy?
-I have a regular size cock honey
-Do you choke mommy with it
-well there was that one time in the car when I hit the brakes but I learned my lesson and no I don't choke mommy with it.
-Do you pretend to choke mommy with it?
-No I don't.

But you know BR you are correct on your hypothetical discussion of massive cocks with a young kid. Maybe they should teach massive cocks in preschool?

[shetline]

Originally posted by dmz
Scientifically speaking

Please don't pretend that science has any definitive answers here.

once you achive independent DNA/independent development, you have a human individual---whether you want to nurture him/her or not.

And if a fertilized egg suddenly splits and a woman ends up giving birth to twins instead of a single baby, was that fertilized egg two individuals to start with or only one that became two?

It seems to me, scientifically speaking, there's no simple connection between merely have a full complement of human genes and the potential to grow into a "human individual", given that many fertilized eggs never even become one recognizable individual, and some eventually become two or more individuals.

Science can add something to the debate, but it hardly solves the social question of what exactly a "human individual" is, why we consider human individuals to have rights, what those rights are, which traits are or aren't important to having a protected status as a "human individual", etc.

Rather than repeat myself, I'll just include a link to my last long diatribe on the subject.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BR
So?

....because BR, [for the 3rd, and final time] had I shown printed versions of this mural to my 7 year-old-daughter, CPS could have removed my daughter form my care.

You have carried your libertarian argument well passed relevancy.

[dmz]

Originally posted by shetline
Please don't pretend that science has any definitive answers here.

I don't see this---or BR's cancer cell argument (which is much weaker). The Zygote is programmed to develop into a human individual---with a unique DNA. That individual controls its own development---and does it as a parasite. The woman's body goes through significant change to support feeding and getting rid of the resultant waste over the months---but in the end, it is a choice to destroy a separate individual.

[shetline]

Originally posted by dmz
I don't see this

Then read the old thread I linked to so I don't have to repeat it all.

[dmz]

Originally posted by shetline
Then read the old thread I linked to so I don't have to repeat it all.

okay

[groverat]

Matsu:

--
Responsibility, that will also ask more of men, a lot more than they have had to pay in some cases.
--

You did not answer my question.
You said the "pro-abortion" argument was not about choice. I asked you what it was about, then.

[bunge]

Originally posted by BR
No but it sure seems like it's your time of the month with your voracity and (lack of) quality of posts of late.

Try a sense of humor. It's funny.

As for my posts, just because you disagree doesn't mean they lack quality. Short and to the point. Clarify later.

[bunge]

Originally posted by BR
It's pro-choice. One can be against abortion personally and still be for the choice of others to make that ethical decision on their own.

Matsu, doesn't this change your opinion?

[thegelding]

my mother, my wife and my daughters are smart enough, strong enough to make decisions about their bodies...i respect them enough to accept their decisions...i love them enough to support them in their decisions...

keep the baby...i love you
adopt out the baby...i love you
abort the fetus...i love you


my part is easy...loving my family is the easiest thing i've ever done...
their part is more difficult...but, as a parent, as a husband, as a son, i will always strive to make the lives of my loved ones better, easier in any way i can


g