The New G5 PowerMacs

[onlooker]

Originally posted by mlnjr
This probably doesn't deserve a thread of its own since it's related to the new G5s, but has anyone noticed what's wrong with this picture?



Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure the 1.8 GHz model shouldn't have been tested twice.

They are not even comparing the right Alienware setup against the dual PowerMacs. Try a Dual AMD, from the DCC workstation $3,545.0. before applicable rebates, and discounts. Comes with w/1GB ram <base/standard>/ a QuadroFX 1100, <base/standard> and other configurable options up the wazzooo.
These are Lightwave tests we are talking about here right? (duhhh 3D) Wouldn't you naturally configure the Dual Processor DCC workstation, rather than the single processor Gaming station?

[mello]

Is the liquid cooling system on the new 2.5ghz macs using that technology
from Cooligy or was it whipped up by Apple directly?

[onlooker]

I could give a crap about Apple cooling technology. Water cooling is old news.

I can configure it in just about any system if I wanted it, but you don't really need it. Unless you burning a hole through your other components like this 970FX is @ 2.5 GHz.

PowerMac G5
• Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
• 2GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 4x512
• 160GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
• ATI Radeon 9800 XT w/256MB DDR SDRAM
• 56k V.92 modem
• 8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
• Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
• Mac OS X - U.S. English

Not very expandable, or configurable for.

Subtotal $3,749.00


All of these systems look better $ vs. $

Alienware MJ-12 4500 Extreme
Dual AMD Opteron™ 250 2.4 GHz 64-Bit
NVIDIA Quadro® FX 4000 256MB 8x AGP w/Dual DVI
AlienIce™ Video Cooling System
Corsair 2GB DDR PC3200 (2x1GB) Registered ECC Server (upgradable)
Plextor PX-712A 12x DVD±R/W Drive
Creative Sound Blaster® Audigy 2 ZS High Definition 7.1 Surround
Microsoft Multimedia Keyboard - Microsoft® IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0 - USB
AlienAutopsy: Automated Technical Support Request System _
High-Performance Heatsink/CPU Fan
Latest Qualified Drivers Installed
Performance Benchmarks Documentation
Personalized Owner's Manual
FREE Custom Alienware® Mouse Pad
Free Alienware® T-Shirt
AlienCare: Advanced Technical Support
Free Shipping!*
On all Alienware systems!
Systems Shipping Within 7 Days!*
Purchase an Alienware system today!
FREE 90 Day Subscription to GameSpot Complete!*
On your next system purchase.
Six Months Same As Cash!
On your next financed purchase!*
Alienware Gift Cards!
Not sure what to get them?

So much room to upgrade, and add here it isn't even funny.

3.5" bays 6 - 1used = 5 open
5.25" bays 4 - 1used = 3 open
AGP = AGP
Memory slots = 4
PCI = 5 - 1used = 4 open
Firewire 800 = 3 open
Graphic ports = 2
IDE = 4
USB = 8
SATA - 4 1used = 3 open
Audio Ports = 3 + (7.1 surround = 8 out)
Network ports = 1

$5,625.00

The system is also down configurable with an ATI FireGL™ T2 128 8x AGP (Better than the Mac) for 4,479.00
You can also downgrade the processor to a Dual AMD Opteron™ 246 2.0 GHz 64-Bit for $3,525.00.

Still better, and highly configurable

The base System Alienware MJ-12 Extreme
Dual Processor - AMD
Opteron™ 246 2.0 Ghz 64-Bit
1GB DDR PC3200 Registered ECC
NVIDIA Quadro® FX 1100

$3,545.00

I think I'm buying the first system I configured. I'll keep my current PowerMac for FCP, and something, but what I still have to figure out.

In your choice of colors too:



I'm partial to the bottom row, and I think I'll be going with either the green, or the black. Blue looks good too, but the green is probably my favorite.

I had to bring the colors down in photoshop to make the image less strenuous for dial up users to load. They were much more vibrant.

[job]

Originally posted by Existence
I think you're forgetting the June 1999 update to the Blue and White G3s. Apple, in June 1999, boosted the speed by 50MHz and changed specifications of it's Blue and White G3s in early June of 1999 as a move to clear inventory. Then, in September 1999 Apple introduced the PowerMac G4 that began shipping in October of that year.

It can happen. This update screams "Let's clear our inventory for the next generation."

Ding, ding, ding!

We have a winner here folks.

Think about it, why else would the 2.5Ghz tower need liquid cooling unless IBM and Apple are streching the chip to the max?

Like Existence said, this feels very much like an interm 'solution.'

[Playmaker]

Originally posted by nathan22t
I wish Apple wasn't lying to us.

This claim cannot be defended
period

so true

[applenut]

Originally posted by job
Ding, ding, ding!

We have a winner here folks.

Think about it, why else would the 2.5Ghz tower need liquid cooling unless IBM and Apple are streching the chip to the max?

Like Existence said, this feels very much like an interm 'solution.'

stretching the chip to the max?

i sure as hell hope not as the 2.5Ghz is the first chip of the next generation

[Playmaker]

Originally posted by onlooker
They are not even comparing the right Alienware setup against the dual PowerMacs. Try a Dual AMD, from the DCC workstation $3,545.0. before applicable rebates, and discounts. Comes with w/1GB ram <base/standard>/ a QuadroFX 1100, <base/standard> and other configurable options up the wazzooo.
These are Lightwave tests we are talking about here right? (duhhh 3D) Wouldn't you naturally configure the Dual Processor DCC workstation, rather than the single processor Gaming station?

The benchmarks Apple uses are often a little mind boggling. They often leave off the faster machines such as the AMD FX53 64 bit processor, which even though is only a single is pretty damn quick in many of these benchmarks. Plus can we see some more extensive bench tests with other programs aside from just photoshop I think this bump was necessary but the next series of revisions should include things that will still be current in 2-3 years like the upcoming pci-express and sexier video card options. I agree that the ram is not a big issue. How many of you are actually utilizing 8gig of ram for anything more than bragging rights.

[Matsu]

The comparison that counts is as a workstation to workstation (mostly in the graphic arts)

None of the systems I see mentioned as comparison units feature 8 RAM slots. That's the most significant feature right there.

Between the 64 bit CPU's, and the fact that you have two of them on hand, the 8 RAM slots in the 2 and 2.5GB models are the best future proofing feature we've seen in a PM in a long long time.

The PCI slots are adequate, PCI-e isn't ready yet, but will probably added in the next update, but still. 8 slots are a very cool feature.

You can add 4GB to your machine for quite a reasonable cost by populating all the slots with 512MB dimms. Funny, a mac that's cheaper to upgrade than a PC!

Yes, that means you have to throw away some RAM if you ever want to jump past 4GB, but the same would be true on any of the other machines peope have compared to the PM, only there, you hit the limit sooner, or have to use a much more expensive part to get the same result. If you're playing with video, or big 2-d projects, or any large data set, RAM, lots of it, is the best investment you can make. The PM's actually let you do this on the cheap, pretty cool...

The one glaring inadequacy is the lack of 4 HDD bays. The cases should include 4 hot swap bays (possibly Xserve type) right at the front of the unit. This really would not cost much to do, and by the looks of it, the new mobo allows the room, you just ship the units blanked out, and can even charge customers to order the sleds later on.

And where is a 1299 single G5 machine? If they can sell a single G4 1.25Ghz tower for that money, it's about time we get a 1.6-2ghz single G5 for the same cost.

[onlooker]

Originally posted by applenut
stretching the chip to the max?

i sure as hell hope not as the 2.5Ghz is the first chip of the next generation

I totally agree with this. The 970fx 90 nano has only seen the Xserve, and the PowerMac, it's been in trouble since it's existence, and it's only seen a one time 500MHz update. THe thing is already liquid cooled. It sure looks like IBM is having as much trouble as MOTOROLA was. How do you know there is anything other than this in the works? It's all rumor. This is the exact situation Apple was in when I waited for the G4 to come around. Never happened. As a matter of fact. When the G4 came out AMD was still almost a laughing matter in x86 processing. Now they are the only ones giving intel a hard time, and I think they have the best processors today. Not MOTOROLA, or IBM.

[ipodandimac]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual


The new Dial 1.8 has the 1.6 board...!

4 Gig RAM max and PCI!!

A shambles.

if you need 4 gigs of ram then you shouldnt be buying the 1.8 to begin with.

[onlooker]

Originally posted by Matsu
None of the systems I see mentioned as comparison units feature 8 RAM slots. That's the most significant feature right there.

It's not that significant. Who needs more than 4GB of ram? Not many people, and anyone that has it it's just for bragging rights. Actually - I think the 8 ram slots are probably the most insignificant, and over rated feature of the PowerMacs architecture. If they were to remove 4 of the slots they could probably add another 600GB of storage which is what most people would rather have IMO.

When you actually consider who needs 4, and 8GB of ram, and why you'll realize that it's the other features that the PowerMac does not have available which is what is most important to them. Not 8 theoretical GB of useless ram in a featureless UnderPowerdMac.

[hmurchison]

RAM is far more important that HD space. HD space does nothing for running a DB quickly. Hell screw the internal drive bays those whining about that are crackerjack prosumers. Digital Audio and Video guys use external RAID or FW drives. I wouldn't mind seeing more internal bays but those who complain do so because they want drives as cheaply as possible.

Funny that people bicker about clock speed when it's RAM that will make your computers sing. I'd take a computer with 8GB of RAM anyday. You want to do stuff truly in Realtime it's RAM that enables that.

The Opteron is fast not just because it's a good design. Hell it's marginally faster than the smaller 970 at the same clock. The Opteron derives it's speed benefit from it's ondie memory controller. Apps that respond well to the lower latency of the Opteron reward users with snappy results.

I'm not too dissappointed. We've become a bit too acclimated to our newfound speed and have forgotten the woefully days of the G4 stuck at 500Mhz. Look how far we've come.

WWDC approaches and yet the new displays have not been announced? That's interesting as they are rumored to be DVI. Could Apple be waiting for more graphic card choices before announcing them? I think that's a probability. The 2.5Ghz Powermac would look alot better with a DVI card option for a FireGL or Quadro and their new LCD.

[ryukyu]

Originally posted by hmurchison
I'm not too dissappointed. We've become a bit too acclimated to our newfound speed and have forgotten the woefully days of the G4 stuck at 500Mhz. Look how far we've come.

WWDC approaches and yet the new displays have not been announced? That's interesting as they are rumored to be DVI. Could Apple be waiting for more graphic card choices before announcing them? I think that's a probability. The 2.5Ghz Powermac would look alot better with a DVI card option for a FireGL or Quadro and their new LCD.

I have to agree about not being too disappointed, except for the seemingly glaring lack of pro video cards, STILL!

At work, I have a Quadro FX 1000 (a lower end workstation card) and it spanks my G5's Radeon 9800 Pro in Maya.

If Apple is serious about pros using these machines, then they really need to do something about this. I hope your speculation about announcing something with the new displays is right.

Then they can make more money by selling those ADC to DVI adapters to people with older Macs who upgrade to a pro video card!!

[bunge]

If, as I've heard, IBM solved their 90 nano process problems 3 months ago, how long would it take for real hardware to hit the streets? I'm looking to see if my source jives with what's now on the street and vice versa.

[onlooker]

Shredded Quote:

Originally posted by hmurchison
RAM is far more important that HD space. HD space does nothing for running a DB quickly. Hell screw the internal drive bays those whining about that are crackerjack prosumers. Digital Audio and Video guys use external RAID or FW drives. I wouldn't mind seeing more internal bays but those who complain do so because they want drives as cheaply as possible.

That was my point hmurchison. From what I see in there, and elsewhere, is people complaining about prices, and the reduced internal drive bay space for expandability.
I think the majority of people "want drives as cheaply as possible." That's basically exactly what I mean when I said that 8 ram slots were over rated.

Even when I'm using Maya, with it's built in rendering, or mental Ray. Both renderers stop using additional ram resources when they need no more. I've loaded up scenes with pixels in the Multi millions, and they have never used close to 4GB ram they don't need it. Neither does Photoshop, Painter, ZBrush, Alias Sketchbook Pro. UT2K4, Americas Army the list go's on. . I cant think of an app I use that's actually asked for that kind of memory, but then again that was not my original point. It was about what most people were interested in, and I think it's Cheap HD expansion over another 4GB of RAM.
Take a poll. I think they A) #1 don't have the ram filled, but B) want more drive space. I think I'm right.

[PB]

For those knowing French and interested, here is the ongoing discussion and reactions on the Power Mac update at Macbidouille. What a riot in France . I have the feeling that this time it is not simply whining, there is a real problem with the value of this update.

[Stecs]

Just consider the outcry if Apple had been using Intel chips. Only a 400 MHz Jump in 12 months (13%)!!! Those lucky sods running IBM chips have increased 500 MHz (25%) in the same time...

[Telomar]

Originally posted by applenut
stretching the chip to the max?

i sure as hell hope not as the 2.5Ghz is the first chip of the next generation

Roadmaps show it as the last of the current generation.

[hmurchison]

People are venting because they really wanted to believe that Apple would be at 3Ghz right now. IBM would have had to be flawless. I think they found that heat wasn't going to be defeated. Liquid Cooling portends a faster future.

Onlooker- I'd be happy to see a better card. Now not only do 3D enthusiasts need good GPU performance but video pros are going to want Motion to run as good as possible. I will keep my faith that higher end ati nvidia hardware is coming.

HW is only one way to speed up a computer. Tiger is going to be more efficient in ways. We're looking good here. Computer fans are high strung sometimes because it's a competition for bragging rights. The Pros making making don't care as they have to look at things through $green$ tinted lenses.

[SwitchingSoon]

Originally posted by onlooker
I could give a crap about Apple cooling technology. Water cooling is old news.

I can configure it in just about any system if I wanted it, but you don't really need it. Unless you burning a hole through your other components like this 970FX is @ 2.5 GHz.

PowerMac G5
• Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
• 2GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 4x512
• 160GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
• ATI Radeon 9800 XT w/256MB DDR SDRAM
• 56k V.92 modem
• 8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
• Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
• Mac OS X - U.S. English

Not very expandable, or configurable for.

Subtotal $3,749.00


All of these systems look better $ vs. $

Alienware MJ-12 4500 Extreme
Dual AMD Opteron™ 250 2.4 GHz 64-Bit
NVIDIA Quadro® FX 4000 256MB 8x AGP w/Dual DVI
AlienIce™ Video Cooling System
Corsair 2GB DDR PC3200 (2x1GB) Registered ECC Server (upgradable)
Plextor PX-712A 12x DVD±R/W Drive
Creative Sound Blaster® Audigy 2 ZS High Definition 7.1 Surround
Microsoft Multimedia Keyboard - Microsoft® IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0 - USB
AlienAutopsy: Automated Technical Support Request System _
High-Performance Heatsink/CPU Fan
Latest Qualified Drivers Installed
Performance Benchmarks Documentation
Personalized Owner's Manual
FREE Custom Alienware® Mouse Pad
Free Alienware® T-Shirt
AlienCare: Advanced Technical Support
Free Shipping!*
On all Alienware systems!
Systems Shipping Within 7 Days!*
Purchase an Alienware system today!
FREE 90 Day Subscription to GameSpot Complete!*
On your next system purchase.
Six Months Same As Cash!
On your next financed purchase!*
Alienware Gift Cards!
Not sure what to get them?

So much room to upgrade, and add here it isn't even funny.

3.5" bays 6 - 1used = 5 open
5.25" bays 4 - 1used = 3 open
AGP = AGP
Memory slots = 4
PCI = 5 - 1used = 4 open
Firewire 800 = 3 open
Graphic ports = 2
IDE = 4
USB = 8
SATA - 4 1used = 3 open
Audio Ports = 3 + (7.1 surround = 8 out)
Network ports = 1

$5,625.00

The system is also down configurable with an ATI FireGL™ T2 128 8x AGP (Better than the Mac) for 4,479.00
You can also downgrade the processor to a Dual AMD Opteron™ 246 2.0 GHz 64-Bit for $3,525.00.

Still better, and highly configurable

The base System Alienware MJ-12 Extreme
Dual Processor - AMD
Opteron™ 246 2.0 Ghz 64-Bit
1GB DDR PC3200 Registered ECC
NVIDIA Quadro® FX 1100

$3,545.00

I think I'm buying the first system I configured. I'll keep my current PowerMac for FCP, and something, but what I still have to figure out.

In your choice of colors too:



I'm partial to the bottom row, and I think I'll be going with either the green, or the black. Blue looks good too, but the green is probably my favorite.

I had to bring the colors down in photoshop to make the image less strenuous for dial up users to load. They were much more vibrant.

Your post has made me seriously reconsider if it's worth it to switch.

[onlooker]

Originally posted by Telomar
Roadmaps show it as the last of the current generation.

What roadmaps? Post one as a visual reference. Don't just expect people to believe you. H3ll I don't even know you!

I know my roadmap says Alienware,/2x AMD Operon 64 Bit 2.4GHz/Quadro 4000, and Maya Unlimited. It had to be done. 8 years of disappointment, and dissatisfaction was far to much time invested into this relationship.


[edit] I didn't even include the gaming possibilities. I've been wanting to play Starwars galaxies for the longest time, and that's just for starters.

Originally posted by Existence
I love Apple's OS but their hardware is overpriced and underperforming.

I'll echo that comment from the post below in this post. I love Mac OS. It's by far the my favorite operating system. I've played with, and occasionally used them all. There is nothing remotely close to the experience, but the hardware just isn't there.

[Existence]

Originally posted by Stecs
Just consider the outcry if Apple had been using Intel chips. Only a 400 MHz Jump in 12 months (13%)!!! Those lucky sods running IBM chips have increased 500 MHz (25%) in the same time...

There would be no outcry. A lot has happened to the P4 along the way--hyperthreading, 800MHz FSB, and monster L3 cache (EE). Most benchmarks say clock-for-clock, performance has improved by up to 20-30% with these enhancements--Intel is at the equivalent of 4GHz in terms of the older 533Hz FSB hyperthreading-lacking P4s.

I love Apple's OS but their hardware is overpriced and underperforming.

[hmurchison]

Your post has made me seriously reconsider if it's worth it to switch.

Why? Other than a Quadro FX4000 there's nothing that makes me think I want to spend $5k on a PC. Are you into 3D?

What roadmaps? Post one as a visual reference. Don't just expect people to believe you. H3ll I don't even know you!

http://www.fz-juelich.de/zam/files/d...4_arch.2up.pdf

or the US

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/rdmap/


IBM has NEVER stated the 970fx would go above 2.5Ghz.


As for Intel

P4 Extreme- Outrageously priced. They jack up ondie cache to make up for an IPC that's dropping like a rock as they crank the pipeline up and up. Branch Predection can only get so good.

Hyperthreading- can actually degrade performance.

I think it's telling that Intel cancelled millions if not billions in prep work for Tejas and it's successor. Nay Intel has hit the wall harder than IBM or AMD has done. We could have seen this coming with their frenzy on clock speed.

Shite if anyone thinks that Apple's hardware is underperforming then they obviously didn't go see the Production Seminar. I swear to you I saw excellent HD footage getting tossed around in FCP like it was nothing. Multiple streams dragged around while still playing.

The only people complaining about speed are running crap code like Photoshop or Microsloth products. Apples hardware is pretty damn speedy if a developer take ANY care in developing.

[John]

IT IS NOT APPLE'S FAULT IBM COULDN'T DELIVER!!!

s/IBM/Motorola/ and rewind a year or two...

[the cool gut]

Originally posted by SwitchingSoon
Your post has made me seriously reconsider if it's worth it to switch.

There's no doubt that the P.C. side has some fast gear. The problem is, it all relies on an operating system that's almost 5 years old, and won;t be updated for another 2-3 years. On top of that, their next OS, longhorn won't even be able to run on any of that Alien gear.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by applenut
stretching the chip to the max?

i sure as hell hope not as the 2.5Ghz is the first chip of the next generation

I thought the 975 was the next gen?

[TWinbrook46636]

Originally posted by hmurchison
People are venting because they really wanted to believe that Apple would be at 3Ghz right now.

I have to disagree. I think most people knew for a while now we were not going to get 3Ghz. They are disgusted that after a whole year Apple has not taken the opportunity to improve on other aspects of the system.

[Existence]

Originally posted by the cool gut
There's no doubt that the P.C. side has some fast gear. The problem is, it all relies on an operating system that's almost 5 years old, and won;t be updated for another 2-3 years.

XP is less than 3 years old, not five. Even Windows 2000, on which XP is based upon, is not 4 years old yet.

On top of that, their next OS, longhorn won't even be able to run on any of that Alien gear.

Utter FUD. Longhorn will run on practically anything modern (Penitum 2+ with sufficient RAM). For all the gooey features, one does need 8x AGP and a Direct X9 128MB video card, both qualifications the Alienware meets.

[Cake]

Originally posted by mello
Is the liquid cooling system on the new 2.5ghz macs using that technology
from Cooligy or was it whipped up by Apple directly?

Looks like Apple designed it since it's nothing like liquid cooling as it is known on the PC side of things.
"Water cooling" implys that it's using a waterblock to cool the processor, chipset, graphics, etc. when it's really only cooling the heatsink:


True watercooling would be a lot more efficient than heatsink watercooling - that's why the G5 still has fans in front of the procs.

[hobBIT]

IT IS NOT APPLE'S FAULT IBM COULDN'T DELIVER!!!

Absolutely true!
But it is Apple's fault that the rest of this 'upgrade' is a rather lackluster affair. Is this really all they can conjure up in 12 months?

Still only 2 internal HD bays?
Still only 1 internal CD drive bay?
Still no ECC memory, not even as an option (heck, Apple has that knowhow since it's being used in Xserves)?
Still an ATI 9600 as the standard 'high-end' graphics card?
Still no PCI express?
Still neither AirPort nor Bluetooth as standard config (like with the PowerBooks)?
Still only one FireWire 800 port?
What about dual layer DVD burners as BTO option?
Or 10.000rpm HDs?

None of these can be blamed on IBM.

What is Apple doing with all the millions spent on R&D? Back to the 'good old' Apple days? Where dozens of products are being developed for loads of money - yet all get scrapped? Like Jobs admitted they did with the Apple PDA?

Think about it, in the last 12(!) months, the only really new hardware products Apple introduced were the iPod mini (and that might not count) and AirPort Express (and that might not count either). The rest were basically just speed bumps of existing products.

Hmmm...

[Concord]

I suspect Apple's "Liquid Cooling" is probably Fluinert or something along those lines. I also wonder if the pump is going to make any kind of objectionable noise.

Onlooker... damn boy, you must be made of money if you're going with an Alienware rig. A DIY box would probaly lop $1500 off that price.

That said, Alienware does have a cool rig coming out in the fall. It's a high end ALX series that has two PCI-E x16 slots that can work in "SLI" mode. They call it Video Array and the concept is quite interesting.


Cheers,

C.

[iDunno]

Man, this thread is taking a beating today... in more ways than one.

As a 3d guy, who has been hanging to see what would happen with the g5 revisions, I can now safely say... I'm getting a PC for my 3d machine. Besides the fact that I want a better video card than what the g5 is offering, I can also gat a fat PC for only 3k, compared to the "entry" g5 price of 3.5K.. with the money left over I can get myself one of the new 12in iBook's for all my other computing needs.

Les.

[Cake]

Originally posted by les t
Man, this thread is taking a beating today... in more ways than one.

As a 3d guy, who has been hanging to see what would happen with the g5 revisions, I can now safely say... I'm getting a PC for my 3d machine. Besides the fact that I want a better video card than what the g5 is offering, I can also gat a fat PC for only 3k, compared to the "entry" g5 price of 3.5K.. with the money left over I can get myself one of the new 12in iBook's for all my other computing needs.

Les.

I recently built a nice PC for 2900 AUD ($2K US) and it rocks:
AMD Athlon 64 3400+
MSI K8T Neo-FIS2R
9800XT
1 Gig Corsair TwinX1024-3200LLPro
2 WD Raptor's (74Gig, 10K RPM, RAID 0)
Samsung SP1614N 160GB Hard Drive
Plextor PX-708A DVD-RW
LiteOn 52X CD-RW
Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro
Antec True480 power supply
Cooler Master Wave Master case

But, a couple of days ago, I killed my little PowerBook!
Having the best, inexpensive hardware is great, but you may miss OS X greatly - I'm stuck with my gaming rig at home and I'm unhappy!

XP is the best OS that MS has produced, but it ain't no OS X. Not by a longshot.

[the cool gut]

Originally posted by Cake
Looks like Apple designed it since it's nothing like liquid cooling as it is known on the PC side of things.
"Water cooling" implys that it's using a waterblock to cool the processor, chipset, graphics, etc. when it's really only cooling the heatsink:


True watercooling would be a lot more efficient than heatsink watercooling - that's why the G5 still has fans in front of the procs.

No, the picture is just a little confusing. Do you see those 2 "circles" with G5 written on them ... those are the processors, so the cooling is going through them as well.

[the cool gut]

Originally posted by Cake
I killed my little PowerBook!

What is that? another appl;einsider forum?

[onlooker]

Oops.. Somebody did a no no.

[Matsu]

I feel uncomfortable stepping out of character, but I'm not convinced that there are better workstations at the same price.

The major failing is the lack of HDD bays. So let's put that aside for a second and look only at performance.

Yes you can get some pretty fast hardware for PM money, systems built with quality components with good I/O, fast stuff. However, unless you test the system, you really don't know what speed you're getting, sorry. There are 3.2Ghz systems and there are 3.2Ghz systems. There's a lot of stuff out there with a fast chip on an otherwise not so fast machine. That's great for consumer stuff (which you have to consider fast for the price, and it kicks the snot out of something like an iMac).

But if you test top shelf PC stuff against these macs, what will the real differences in price and performance be?

I imagine that these macs are right where they need to be for the people that buy these types of set-up.

The RAM slots are significant. Merely populating all of them will probably boost performance. You may not be seeing huge performance boosts 'cause you aren't dealing with a lot of 64 bit software, yet. But you will. I'd rather swap 8GB out of RAM than off a RAID.

[onlooker]

Originally posted by hmurchison
Why? Other than a Quadro FX4000 there's nothing that makes me think I want to spend $5k on a PC. Are you into 3D?

Other than the Quadro FX 4000 there is all the room for expandability, (another optical drive bay is there, and when Tyan updates their motherboards to PCIe I can start swapping, and selling parts. If I want I can probably keep upgrading that computer there with new motherboards, and processors for years for 1/4th the cost of what it would cost to maintain a Mac with specs like that.
I'll probably be able to plug 3GHz AMD processors right into that motherboard there. You can't do that on a Mac the day IBM has new processors ready you can't just order them up, and throw them in. I'm actually pretty happy to move away from the Mac for a spell while they sort out their problems.

[hmurchison]

I have to disagree. I think most people knew for a while now we were not going to get 3Ghz. They are disgusted that after a whole year Apple has not taken the opportunity to improve on other aspects of the system.

What PCI Express? Intel created the damn thing and they're not even shipping it yet. Apple likely finalized the HW months ago. I'll be happy if they fixed the FW800 write issue and USB 2.0. Most of the people venting have no clue what it takes logistically to launch updates.

Again Mac users with unrealistic expectations lead to these bytch fests. The majority of users don't care about dual optical drives or freakin 10 drive bays. I'm disappointed about the 3d cards but I find it fishy that the new Monitors weren't announced yet and even more interesting that they may be DVI. Methinks my #1 complaint will be taken care of shortly.

[Cake]

Originally posted by the cool gut
No, the picture is just a little confusing. Do you see those 2 "circles" with G5 written on them ... those are the processors, so the cooling is going through them as well.

Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
I guess I misunderstood it. Thank you.

Originally posted by onlooker
Oops.. Somebody did a no no.

Why would that be a no no? I seen links to every imaginable place on the 'net here on AI. I don't see a problem. If you do, PM me and we discuss.