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Pesky Psystar to emerge from Chapter 11 with new Mac offering - Page 4

post #121 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Yeah, someone explained to me why Dell & HP don't have their own OS on their Machines!! Apple and MS have their own OS so it is possible. SOME ONE EXPLAIN TO ME PLEASE

oh, stop teasing them. Amiga, Sun, and IBM made their own OS and hardware.
post #122 of 227
When somebody files Bankruptcy an automatic protection order goes into effect preventing at least temporarily all collection and/or court related activities against the party filing. So, Apple's copyright infringement suit was temporarily stopped. Apple asked the Court for the protection order as it pertains to Apple be lifted so that it can proceed with it's suit against Psystar, which Apple claimed the resolution of is essential to any restructuring that Psystar wants to do in Bankruptcy. Just because Apple was successful in it's motion, doesn't mean Psystar is out of Bankruptcy: it just means the Bankruptcy protection order as it pertain to that lawsuit doesn't apply. If Apple wins money against Psystar, whether or not Apple collects will be determined by the Bankruptcy Court.

Further, filing Bankruptcy is usually voluntary. Dropping the case, however, is not. The Court must approve the Bankruptcy case being dismissed. It is odd Psystar is claiming it will emerge from Bankruptcy because the Court hasn't ruled on it's motion to request the case being dropped yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The court are the ones who lifted the bankruptcy after Apple filed to have it lifted, claiming that Psystar was using it to hide behind.
post #123 of 227
Apple has to only win once. You see as the offended party it will always choose the location to sue. That location will be federal court in California. Once that court rules in favor of Apple, it will always rule in favor of Apple on the same issue. Further, California is it's home court.

Further, you can only be a customer if Apple offers you a product to buy. It, however, only offers an upgrade version of it's OS for sale, not a full install. So, if you pay upgrade prices and use it as a full install, you aren't a customer, but a thief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

Trust me, Apple is eventually going to lose. They may shut down psystar, but then there will be another one and another one and another one. They can't go after every company and eventually some judge somewhere will rule against their ULA and it will be over. They should keep the customers that like their software - people like me.
post #124 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

What I am saying is that Apple is ripping us Mac users in one way or another.
This should be the price at the apple store, not on Psystar's.

And as for the CPU, I am sure that there is a "huge" difference between them. And you know what? even IF what you are saying is true about the difference, Apple should present buyers with the option: what type of CPU do you want? They are boxing us in, taking a premium price - F*CK them.

I have a PC running Win7 right beside me, a Quad 6600, 4GB Ram, 9800GTX 512MB, etc. It cost me a year ago like $1,500± and it runs like a king. Put Mac OS X on this baby and it will fly!

Why shouldn't we have such a deal for a normal Mac? why should we get stuck with either an iMac OR a Mac Pro? WHERE IS THE *NORMAL* MAC?!

So F*ck them!

You're an outright idiot. I'm sorry, but do you have any effing clue what operating overheard and research and development are? Psystar doesn't have to expend money on either and that's why they can offer the product for so much less. It's also the reason you typically find items online for alot less money than in store (paying for a physical building is expensive).

The only thing Psystar has shown Mac customers is why protecting intellectual property is so important: because otherwise, some fat asshole from Florida will swoop in like cancer and leach off of you. My g-d, just listen to some of these interviews Rudy Pedraza has given. He's committing intellectual dishonesty on a massive level.

The idea of a business is to make money. The idea of a business is not to make friends and go play on the swing set. Apple is very price competitive with its direct competition (stuff like the Dell XPS One and the HP Touchsmart). If you wanna complain that Apple doesn't make a midtower, go right ahead, but this idea that you're paying twice as much for the same thing is patently false.

And no Apple will not lose. You set a legal precedent and in the future these lawsuits will not happen because these people will either get directly shut down or face an obvious court loss if sued. It doesn't matter how many of them show up, if they stand on the wrong side of IP law, they lose.
post #125 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

Now, who has the balls to tell me that the there is no apple tax?!

There is NO apple tax. Tax is a government revenue.
post #126 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightstriker View Post

oh, stop teasing them. Amiga, Sun, and IBM made their own OS and hardware.

Yep and they just couldn't get passed a combined total of 3% market share.
post #127 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

You're an outright idiot. I'm sorry, but do you have any effing clue what operating overheard and research and development are? Psystar doesn't have to expend money on either and that's why they can offer the product for so much less. It's also the reason you typically find items online for alot less money than in store (paying for a physical building is expensive).

The only thing Psystar has shown Mac customers is why protecting intellectual property is so important: because otherwise, some fat asshole from Florida will swoop in like cancer and leach off of you. My g-d, just listen to some of these interviews Rudy Pedraza has given. He's committing intellectual dishonesty on a massive level.

The idea of a business is to make money. The idea of a business is not to make friends and go play on the swing set. Apple is very price competitive with its direct competition (stuff like the Dell XPS One and the HP Touchsmart). If you wanna complain that Apple doesn't make a midtower, go right ahead, but this idea that you're paying twice as much for the same thing is patently false.

And no Apple will not lose. You set a legal precedent and in the future these lawsuits will not happen because these people will either get directly shut down or face an obvious court loss if sued. It doesn't matter how many of them show up, if they stand on the wrong side of IP law, they lose.

Spot on!
post #128 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

When somebody files Bankruptcy an automatic protection order goes into effect preventing at least temporarily all collection and/or court related activities against the party filing. So, Apple's copyright infringement suit was temporarily stopped. Apple asked the Court for the protection order as it pertains to Apple be lifted so that it can proceed with it's suit against Psystar, which Apple claimed the resolution of is essential to any restructuring that Psystar wants to do in Bankruptcy. Just because Apple was successful in it's motion, doesn't mean Psystar is out of Bankruptcy: it just means the Bankruptcy protection order as it pertain to that lawsuit doesn't apply. If Apple wins money against Psystar, whether or not Apple collects will be determined by the Bankruptcy Court.

Further, filing Bankruptcy is usually voluntary. Dropping the case, however, is not. The Court must approve the Bankruptcy case being dismissed. It is odd Psystar is claiming it will emerge from Bankruptcy because the Court hasn't ruled on it's motion to request the case being dropped yet.

Marketing has a way of bending the facts, eh?
post #129 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You get $50 off instantly, so the price starts at $1,317. Then to be nice ill knock another $80 off the price since that goes to Global Fund to help prepare African babies to get adopted by Hollywood celebrities or something, so the price is now $1237.

Dell is using an old Allendale/SantaRosa architecture desktop processor that is 65nm, 2 MB L2 Cache, 800 MT/s CPU that cost $113 back in 2007 when it was introduced. Contrast that to the 45nm, 6MB L2 Cache, 1066 MT/s CPU that cost $348 when released.

That isnt even considering the XPS Ones DDR2 667MHz RAM, 250GB HDD, Intel GMA 3100 IGP, 80°*viewing angle compared to the iMacs DDR3 1067MHz RAM, 320GB HDD, Nvidia 9400M IGP, 160° viewing angle, etc.

Im guessing that the XPS One has not been a good seller for Dell so they are just holding it until they can get rid of stock, but that doesnt explain the excessive price for such old components.

In short, DELL is losing market share and profits are sinking. So they are increasing their margins on certain products hoping they get bought and the quality drop is overlooked.
post #130 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

In short, DELL is losing market share and profits are sinking. So they are increasing their margins on certain products hoping they get bought and the quality drop is overlooked.

It certainly looks that way. They do offer a desktop Quad in the 24 XPS One, which I think means that it has to be a newer architecture chip. Still, its only using the Intel GMA X4500 IGP and has a display with an 89° viewing angle, but its better than the 20.

I wish that other vendors offered AIOs that were more popular and more competitive to the iMac. It would surely help to keep the iMac updated more often.
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post #131 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

Just look at this:
Psystar Open 7 Workstation:
Core i7 Xeon 2.66GHz
6 GB DDR3 RAM
1 TB HD
GeForce 9500GT GTX 512MB
DVD-RW
802.11n (PCI-E 1x) (added)
FW 400 + 800 (added)
Mac OS X + iLife + iWork
================
$1,734

Apple Mac Pro, DEFAULT configuration:
Core i7 Xeon 2.66GHz
3 GB DDR3 RAM
640 GB HD
GeForce GT 120 512MB
DVD-RW
Mac OS X + iLife
NO WIRELESS
FW 800 ONLY
Mac OS X + iLife
================
$2,499

$765 more for the same computer!
F*ck Apple, what a sorry ass bunch of thieves. Now, who has the balls to tell me that the there is no apple tax?!

How about if I make an equally stupid argument:
Chevy Cobalt Sedan $14,990

Mercedes Benz S-class $89,350

Both of them have 4 doors, 4 wheels, one trunk, one steering wheel and a radio. Both of them seat 5. How dare Mercedes charge $75 K more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

Why shouldn't we have such a deal for a normal Mac? why should we get stuck with either an iMac OR a Mac Pro? WHERE IS THE *NORMAL* MAC?!

So F*ck them!

There's no such thing as a 'normal' Mac. There are Macs and computers made by other companies. Defining something that YOU want as 'normal' is just plain stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

You guys are just not listening.
No one is saying Psystar are doing the right thing. No one says that Apple should not sue their ass to kngdom come. They should. But what Psystar is showing you is that Apple is f*cking us up our collective asses in various ways. I, WILL NOT buy hardware that is twice expensive because this is what Mr. Jobs decided that I needed. Sorry - on my ass, there is a big NO ENTRY sign

The customer is always right.

Except when they're wrong.

No one is making you spend twice as much. Macs are not twice as much as truly comparable computers. But even if they were, here's how free enterprise works. A company offers a product at a given price. You choose either to buy it, not buy it, or buy something else. No one is forcing anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

So, lets say I was a soccer mom looking for a computer. My knowledge of computers is moderate, and I'm looking for something with stability, ease of use, and peace of mind. I want a decent amount of power across the board. A simple mid level tower. What can Apple do for me? Is that not a large enough of a demographic for Apple to pay attention to?

What a stupid argument. Why would a soccer mom want a tower? Sounds like the classic iMac demographic. Or, if she's on a budget, a Mini.

I know very, very few people who have ever opened a computer for anything but adding RAM. Apple has apparently decided the number is too small to bother with. Remember that Apple has 30+ years of selling computers. I suspect their market research is better than yours - especially if you think a soccer mom is likely to be a tower customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Well that's where I'm coming from and I think where nano tube is coming from as well.

Hell, if I was a professional movie editor, I'd get a mac pro completely loaded. I'm not alone in saying that I'm not a professional movie editor, however, and I don't need the level of hardware offered, but at the same time, I would NEVER use a mac mini or imac. I'm not alone by a long shot dude.

No, you're not. Lots of people don't buy Macs. So?

Apple can't get to all customers. They don't even try. They choose the market segments they want to compete in and then do so. The fact that they choose not to go after people who think price is the only thing that matters doesn't make them evil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

hey I never said they were REQUIRED to suit these needs, just pointing out why it would be beneficial. The machine Psystar is selling is a clear example of the level of cost to performance that Apple is skipping.

And we can see how many computers Psystar has sold.

If you don't like Apple's offerings, don't buy them. Or compromise on something. That doesn't make Apple evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Right, but Apple is saying it is not a free market and that Mac OS X license owners do not have the freedom to use that OS on a Psystar machine. Nor does that company even have the freedom to sell its machines. So, we will see how free this market really is.

You've got it backwards. Apple is saying that it's a free market and people who don't like their products are free to buy computers from any of hundreds of other PC vendors. THAT is their choice, not stealing Apple's proprietary property. Apple is also not saying that Psystar can't sell its own computers. Apple has never raised any objection to the hundreds of other PC vendors selling their own computers. What's different about Psystar is that they're stealing Apple's property in order to sell computers. BIG difference.
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post #132 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

You're an outright idiot... The idea of a business is to make money.

No, it's not. It's to satisfy a demand. Repeating garbage you hear on the internet doesn't make you intelligent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

The idea of a business is not to make friends and go play on the swing set.

How can it be? A business is a business, not a person. If a business was a person they would be called a businessman, who very well could make friends and play on the swing set. As it is, it's impossible for a non-physical entity to do physical activities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

Apple is very price competitive with its direct competition (stuff like the Dell XPS One and the HP Touchsmart). If you wanna complain that Apple doesn't make a midtower, go right ahead, but this idea that you're paying twice as much for the same thing is patently false.

That's the point. You can't pay twice as much for the same thing from Apple because half of those things they don't offer!
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post #133 of 227
Macgenius84 here just trying to set the record straight on psystar.
Psystar should go bankrupt and its great that in a matter of short time that they will be no more. If the creators of psystar -6-+
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post #134 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

You're an outright idiot. I'm sorry, but do you have any effing clue what operating overheard and research and development are? Psystar doesn't have to expend money on either and that's why they can offer the product for so much less. It's also the reason you typically find items online for alot less money than in store (paying for a physical building is expensive).

The only thing Psystar has shown Mac customers is why protecting intellectual property is so important: because otherwise, some fat asshole from Florida will swoop in like cancer and leach off of you. My g-d, just listen to some of these interviews Rudy Pedraza has given. He's committing intellectual dishonesty on a massive level.

I honestly don't how people can get their panties in a wad about "Apple's IP". If Psystar bought Mac OS X off the shelf and installed it onto a hackintosh, they are stealing nothing (I'm not saying that's what they are doing, but they very well could be).

I made a hackintosh last year. It was a fun project, and saved me close to $1000 when I was done. I also had a Mac that was better than any iMac out there, and maybe better than the Mac Pros. I paid around $1300 to build a Core i7 iMac, which is still faster than any iMac out there (it also has a ridiculous amount of RAM and a WAYYY better video card in it which will buy more processing power in the long run anyway). But my point is--I stole nothing. I bought a family pack of Leopard when it came out, so I installed it in my hackintosh. Against the EULA for sure, but nobody has every proven that EULAs are enforceable. So I stole no Apple IP as far as I am concerned, and Psystar may (not) be either.

Also I hope everybody whining about Apple's IP always pays for every MP3, DVD and piece of software they own--amazing how many Mac fans I've met who pirate the sh*t out of DVDs but still swear it's a sin to build a hackintosh. That includes ripping DVDs, even ones you already own, which is a big no-no.
post #135 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by greglo View Post

No, it's not. It's to satisfy a demand. Repeating garbage you hear on the internet doesn't make you intelligent.

ROTFLMAO.

Don't call someone stupid when they're right and you're wrong.

Businesses exist to make money, at least publicly traded ones. One of the legal obligations of a publicly traded company is to maximize shareholder value - which is typically a function of how much money they make.

There's no law that says a business has to satisfy a demand. That's certainly one great way to make money, but it's not required. And it's especially not required that they satisfy any particular demand.

If I run a retail store and a customer comes in and demands a product that I don't sell, I don't have to sell it to them. If they demand that I sell the product for less than I want to sell it for, I don't have to sell it to them. Business is most certainly NOT about meeting every demand that anyone can make - or even any demand that a billion people might make.
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post #136 of 227
Macgenius84 here just trying to set the record straight on psystar.
Psystar should go bankrupt and its great that in a matter of short time that they will be no more. If the creators of psystar want to use mac software they should buy a mac and not try to make it something its not like a mac hardware in over the top pc casing thats just not cool it causes more problems then its worth plus they went against the apple license agreement that all mac software should stay on an apple product and only a apple product psystar were making apple another typical wrigged pc. like thats not downgrading the mac
post #137 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by macgenius84 View Post

Macgenius84 here just trying to set the record straight on psystar.
Psystar should go bankrupt and its great that in a matter of short time that they will be no more. If the creators of psystar want to use mac software they should buy a mac and not try to make it something its not like a mac hardware in over the top pc casing thats just not cool it causes more problems then its worth plus they went against the apple license agreement that all mac software should stay on an apple product and only a apple product psystar were making apple another typical wrigged pc. like thats not downgrading the mac
post #138 of 227
I kind of want to get one of these Psystar machines... They're quickly becoming a chapter in Apple's history.
post #139 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79 View Post

I honestly don't how people can get their panties in a wad about "Apple's IP". If Psystar bought Mac OS X off the shelf and installed it onto a hackintosh, they are stealing nothing (I'm not saying that's what they are doing, but they very well could be).

I made a hackintosh last year. It was a fun project, and saved me close to $1000 when I was done. I also had a Mac that was better than any iMac out there, and maybe better than the Mac Pros. I paid around $1300 to build a Core i7 iMac, which is still faster than any iMac out there (it also has a ridiculous amount of RAM and a WAYYY better video card in it which will buy more processing power in the long run anyway). But my point is--I stole nothing. I bought a family pack of Leopard when it came out, so I installed it in my hackintosh. Against the EULA for sure, but nobody has every proven that EULAs are enforceable. So I stole no Apple IP as far as I am concerned, and Psystar may (not) be either.

Also I hope everybody whining about Apple's IP always pays for every MP3, DVD and piece of software they own--amazing how many Mac fans I've met who pirate the sh*t out of DVDs but still swear it's a sin to build a hackintosh. That includes ripping DVDs, even ones you already own, which is a big no-no.

With all do respect, you bought an upgrade pack and compiled it to work as if it were a standard universal installation pack. Apple charges $129 for Leopard because it is an upgrade. Were it not, it would sit around the $300-$400 Vista Ultimate usually sells for. Leopard's price is subsidized by by the hardware you're buying. So, yes, you did steal it. And yes, you did violate the EULA, which has been upheld in U.S. and Japanese courts several times. Please don't even bring up the European Union, I could not care less to hear about the opinions of a legal body whose rulings never stand up in courts other than its own.

Your sense of entitlement is sickening. If you want a midtower, then buy a Windows computer. I'm sure several of the Apple bashers here can give you reasons why you might like that. And don't be an ass and use quotation marks around "Apple's IP." They own it, it's theirs, they can set and define the terms of its usage. You can disagree with them and take your money elsewhere. That's how the market works and grows.

When you bought that copy of Leopard, you purchased a license, not the source code. The same way when you buy a Bob Dylan song, you're buying a copy of it, not the rights to the original work. So, quite literally, you have absolutely no legal right to do what you did. Just because Apple hasn't personally sued you for it, doesn't change that fact.
post #140 of 227
The title is misleading. Filing Bankruptcy is usually voluntary. Getting the case dismissed is not. So, Psystar has to ask the Court for permission to drop the case, which apparently it has. Courts do not always let Debtors do that. So just because Psystar is seeking to get out of Bankruptcy sooner rather then later, it isn't a sure fire thing that the Court will allow it. The title suggests Psystar will emerge from Bankruptcy with new offerings. Not necessarily true, as Psystar might never emerge from Bankruptcy. It could convert to a Chapter 7 and liquidate the company.
post #141 of 227
One issue I think is central.

Some company is selling upgrade / restore DVD's as full OS installations, for the intent purpose of breaking end user licence agreement.

If I sell a program to someone, and say "those who have paid can get a $10 upgrade, the rest have to pay the full price." then thats fair. But upgrade OS DVD's are just that. Upgrades.

People who buy Leopard in a box aren't buying the OS, and their EULA says so. They're buying an upgrade to their previous version of OS X.

So when do people pay for licensing the entire OS? When they buy a mac. That's their time of purchase. Quite simply, you can never buy a licence to the OS without buying a Mac. These people are re-engineering the OS and selling it as the full OS.

Is this wrong? Hell yes! Apple can choose when and how they distribute the full OS licensing.
post #142 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by greglo View Post

No, it's not. It's to satisfy a demand. Repeating garbage you hear on the internet doesn't make you intelligent.



How can it be? A business is a business, not a person. If a business was a person they would be called a businessman, who very well could make friends and play on the swing set. As it is, it's impossible for a non-physical entity to do physical activities.



That's the point. You can't pay twice as much for the same thing from Apple because half of those things they don't offer!

Really? Does demand in the absence of profit keep multinational corporations running? Would investors give a crap about demand if it didn't make them money? Do you expect to pay your employees with demand?

The market might demand a $10 iPod, but no one's gonna make it without turning a profit. Supply and demand is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. I don't need the internet to spell out common sense for me.

Moving on, are you daft? The point of that comment was to point out that businesses seek to profit from customers, not satisfy their every need, no matter how financially unsound that may be. The only relationship you're attempting to form with the customer is one of loyalty (in order to make continued profit). Do you take everything so literally?

Again, if Apple doesn't offer what you want, then go buy a Windows computer that will satisfy your needs. See, if enough people do that, eventually Apple will realize the market is shifting towards midtowers and adjust their line-up accordingly. Hackintoshing is just a childish and unproductive way of flicking the company off.
post #143 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

People who buy Leopard in a box aren't buying the OS, and their EULA says so. They're buying an upgrade to their previous version of OS X.

So when do people pay for licensing the entire OS? When they buy a mac. That's their time of purchase. Quite simply, you can never buy a licence to the OS without buying a Mac. These people are re-engineering the OS and selling it as the full OS.

With the SL upgrades being only $29, I wonder how this will play out.
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post #144 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

With all do respect, you bought an upgrade pack and compiled it to work as if it were a standard universal installation pack. Apple charges $129 for Leopard because it is an upgrade. Were it not, it would sit around the $300-$400 Vista Ultimate usually sells for. Leopard's price is subsidized by by the hardware you're buying. So, yes, you did steal it. And yes, you did violate the EULA, which has been upheld in U.S. and Japanese courts several times. Please don't even bring up the European Union, I could not care less to hear about the opinions of a legal body whose rulings never stand up in courts other than its own.

Huh? It's no more an upgrade pack than Vista Ultimate is an upgrade pack. Microsoft charges $400 for VU because they can. There's also versions of Vista that cost less than Leopard--are you saying they are "upgrade licenses"?

And do not tell me EULAs have been held up in court. There are a LOT of ways to argue against EULAs, and as somebody who has written a fair amount of software, I've heard several of them. Here's a fun one: have an 8 year old install software, then convince a judge that an 8 year old just entered into a legally binding contract with your company by clicking on "Agree". That kid has just as much of a binding contract with you as his dog.

The fact is, the legality of EULAs has been very much up in the air for ages. Courts have struck down several EULAs that they defined as having "unreasonable" clauses. What's unreasonable? It's up to the courts. Perhaps the restriction you cannot run Mac OS X on any computer not made by Apple is unreasonable. No court has decided on it yet. (Also BTW just because you don't like the EU doesn't make your opinion of their laws any more or less correct then my opinion of US laws.)

Quote:
Your sense of entitlement is sickening. If you want a midtower, then buy a Windows computer.

Thing is, I don't have to buy a Windows computer to get a midtower. I can build a midtower, and install Windows on it. Which I did. And I installed OS X on it. And Linux.

Quote:
When you bought that copy of Leopard, you purchased a license, not the source code. The same way when you buy a Bob Dylan song, you're buying a copy of it, not the rights to the original work. So, quite literally, you have absolutely no legal right to do what you do. Just because Apple hasn't personally sued you for it, doesn't change that fact.

And I assume you have not ripped a single DVD? Your iPod/iPhone doesn't have any videos except those purchased from the Apple Store? The MPAA argues that the DVDs you purchased are for viewing in DVD players only. Not on iPhones. They use the same argument (which I happen to disagree with)--that you purchased only a license to watch their movie, not the movie itself.
post #145 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

With the SL upgrades being only $29, I wonder how this will play out.

Yes, I agree.

But it seems, from what Apple's said, that Snow Leopard installation disks will be upgrade-only from Leopard.

If you have Tiger, you need to buy the full installation with the box set, they're saying.

So maybe Apple's starting to deal with this in this way. Personally, I hope not. When I upgrade to a new OS, I like to clean install the OS.

I hope I can, but this seems to suggest otherwise.
post #146 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Yes, I agree.

But it seems, from what Apple's said, that Snow Leopard installation disks will be upgrade-only from Leopard.

If you have Tiger, you need to buy the full installation with the box set, they're saying.

So maybe Apple's starting to deal with this in this way. Personally, I hope not. When I upgrade to a new OS, I like to clean install the OS.

I hope I can, but this seems to suggest otherwise.

I am in denial on this one. Im hoping that the upgrade-only for Leopard users will still let you do a full format and re-install but that it uses the honour system like it does with single and family pack licensing.

One of the beautiful things about Mac OS X installs is simplified OS upgrades without all the caveats that Windows has due the different business models.

Honestly, what percentage of Mac users are still on Tiger, anyway. And dont forget that you cant count any of the PPC Tiger users as they wont be able to upgrade to SL anyway. It seems like a waste to go through all that trouble for what I assume is very small percentage of Intel Tiger users.

edit: This is sounding a bit odd. You can either get SL for $29 or if you are Tiger user you cant just pay the $129 for SL, you have to pay $169 for SL, iWork and iLife. iWork works with Tiger, so that might already be on some machines, but iLife 09 requires v10.5.6 or later to be installed.
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/06/08macosx.html
edit2: According to NetApplications about 30% of Mac OS X users are on Tiger. They dont list what percentage are PPC v. Intel.
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/oper...ame=M&qpsp=124
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post #147 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79 View Post

Huh? It's no more an upgrade pack than Vista Ultimate is an upgrade pack. Microsoft charges $400 for VU because they can. There's also versions of Vista that cost less than Leopard--are you saying they are "upgrade licenses"?

And do not tell me EULAs have been held up in court. There are a LOT of ways to argue against EULAs, and as somebody who has written a fair amount of software, I've heard several of them. Here's a fun one: have an 8 year old install software, then convince a judge that an 8 year old just entered into a legally binding contract with your company by clicking on "Agree". That kid has just as much of a binding contract with you as his dog.

The fact is, the legality of EULAs has been very much up in the air for ages. Courts have struck down several EULAs that they defined as having "unreasonable" clauses. What's unreasonable? It's up to the courts. Perhaps the restriction you cannot run Mac OS X on any computer not made by Apple is unreasonable. No court has decided on it yet. (Also BTW just because you don't like the EU doesn't make your opinion of their laws any more or less correct then my opinion of US laws.)


Thing is, I don't have to buy a Windows computer to get a midtower. I can build a midtower, and install Windows on it. Which I did. And I installed OS X on it. And Linux.


And I assume you have not ripped a single DVD? Your iPod/iPhone doesn't have any videos except those purchased from the Apple Store? The MPAA argues that the DVDs you purchased are for viewing in DVD players only. Not on iPhones. They use the same argument (which I happen to disagree with)--that you purchased only a license to watch their movie, not the movie itself.

The version of Vista I'm talking about is the full direct install version of Ultimate. Microsoft specifically sells upgrade versions of Windows to people who already have another version of the operating system. If you buy Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade and hack it to work as a full install, you just committed a crime, the same way as installing OS X on non-Apple hardware.

Companies price different versions of different operating systems differently because they serve different purposes. If Apple specifically markets and prices its software as an upgrade, subsidized by its hardware and you hack it, you have committed a crime. I don't care what jurisdiction you argue that in, you will be found guilty.

And as to your comment about EULAs, can an eight year old scan his debit card and buy one? Do not several companies require you be a certain age to even purchase software with an applicable EULA?

As to what content I own, it has no bearing here, but no, I don't have any ripped DVDs or movies downloaded from torrents. As annoying as I find the idea of not ripping DVDs to be, I can understand it: there really is nothing stopping me from making copies and distributing them to my friends/family. So, again, whether you agree with the law or not on ripping DVDs, you are violating it in doing so.

Now, to my own point, my problem with the European Union is that it violates the principles of a good governmental body. It doesn't make policies that help protect its citizens, it interferes entirely too much with the free market. Businesses live or die on the merits of their products and strategies. A reasonable government intervenes only if a company abuses its rights, not simply because, for instance, Opera thinks its unfair that its browser can't ship with every copy of Microsoft's operating system.

Seriously, don't just take my opinion, how many top software companies do you know of that have headquarters in the European Union? The EU has no respect for intellectual property, the U.S. and Japan do. Disguising that lack of respect as anti-competitive laws doesn't make it any less apparent.

And as someone who writes software, you should appreciate Intellectual Property law since it exists to protect your right to fair compensation and usage. I've said this before, if an artist opens an exhibit of a painter's most famous works covered in excrement, the painter has every right to have that exhibit shut done because its misusing his/her IP. And Bob Dylan has every right to sue a man who decides it's okay to do an album of covers of his songs without first receiving his permission.

Apple's EULA is a tangible benefit to its customers and it is well known and can be easily viewed before the time of purchase. Arguing against something on the grounds of not liking it will get you nowhere with any legal body.

And the thing is, legally speaking, if you believe in property rights of any sort, then yes, to get a midtower of the sort you speak of, you have to buy Windows because it's the only OS that will realistically have the drivers and software to take advantage of that power right now. One last thing, though, hell fucking no a Core i7 is not better than a Xeon. The entire point of the Xeon line is reliability. They are tested to a rigorous standard that off the shelf i7s simply never go through. The same is true of the RAM being used in conjunction with them.
post #148 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by WPLJ42 View Post

Um ... Dell makes AOI machines ... Sony too. Why make such a silly comparison?

Yeah, about 3 years after Apple started.
post #149 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Right, but Apple is saying it is not a free market and that Mac OS X license owners do not have the freedom to use that OS on a Psystar machine. Nor does that company even have the freedom to sell its machines. So, we will see how free this market really is.

No, Apple is saying it's a free market. Their right under a free market is to offer Mac OS X bundled to Apple hardware.

A free market allows the consumer to make their own decisions on what they purchase from manufacturers offerings.

OS X on non-Apple hardware is NOT one of Apple's offerings, and therefore isn't a choice open to you. But it is still all free market.
post #150 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

so what i got from this thread is that someone posted that the psystar computer was far cheaper than an "equivalent" mac pro and was proven worng in the first reply. So he shifted his argument to he doesn't need the hardware apple has in the mac pro, so the psystar was a better deal to him and apple is somehow in the wrong for not catering to his needs. Even more pointless than i expected this thread to be.

amen!!
post #151 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

Just look at this:
Psystar Open 7 Workstation:
Core i7 Xeon 2.66GHz
6 GB DDR3 RAM
1 TB HD
GeForce 9500GT GTX 512MB
DVD-RW
802.11n (PCI-E 1x) (added)
FW 400 + 800 (added)
Mac OS X + iLife + iWork
================
$1,734

Apple Mac Pro, DEFAULT configuration:
Core i7 Xeon 2.66GHz
3 GB DDR3 RAM
640 GB HD
GeForce GT 120 512MB
DVD-RW
Mac OS X + iLife
NO WIRELESS
FW 800 ONLY
Mac OS X + iLife
================
$2,499

$765 more for the same computer!
F*ck Apple, what a sorry ass bunch of thieves. Now, who has the balls to tell me that the there is no apple tax?!


You forgot something:

Psystar Open 7 Workstation:
Core i7 Xeon 2.66GHz
6 GB DDR3 RAM
1 TB HD
GeForce 9500GT GTX 512MB
DVD-RW
802.11n (PCI-E 1x) (added)
FW 400 + 800 (added)
Mac OS X + iLife + iWork
+ Apple case + beauty 1000$
+ Apple quality components 500$ ( supposedly, But no one knows exactly what it is)
+ Apple has Xeon $700

==============================
= $3,934 ( $1,734 + $1,500 + $700)

What about now? Psystar wants $1500 more for the same computer!
post #152 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You get $50 off instantly, so the price starts at $1,317. Then to be nice ill knock another $80 off the price since that goes to Global Fund to help prepare African babies to get adopted by Hollywood celebrities or something, so the price is now $1237.

You're being extremely generous, but even so the XPS is still more money for less computer. I'm wondering what happened to the "Apple tax" theorists.
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post #153 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

You're being extremely generous, but even so the XPS is still more money for less computer. I'm wondering what happened to the "Apple tax" theorists.

The Apple Tax will compare a Mac to a single machine, not the average machine. What is funny is that they will compare, say, a 15 2 notebook and only compare the rudimentary components and claim victory in proving their Apple Tax theory, but theyll completely ignore, from the same manufacturer that used to show the Apple Tax, the much thinner notebook that more directly competes with Apples offerings that is about the same and sometimes considerably more than Apples notebook line. Their argument then is that you dont need to have such a thin computer, which is true, but of course they ignore the fact that higher-grade components and engineering cost more. Its never ending.
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post #154 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The Apple Tax will compare a Mac to a single machine, not the average machine. What is funny is that they will compare, say, a 15 2 notebook and only compare the rudimentary components and claim victory in proving their Apple Tax theory, but theyll completely ignore, from the same manufacturer that used to show the Apple Tax, the much thinner notebook that more directly competes with Apples offerings that is about the same and sometimes considerably more than Apples notebook line. Their argument then is that you dont need to have such a thin computer, which is true, but of course they ignore the fact that higher-grade components and engineering cost more. Its never ending.

What it always comes down to is that Apple must make a Mac to compete with every product offered by every Windows PC manufacturer.
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post #155 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79 View Post

I honestly don't how people can get their panties in a wad about "Apple's IP". If Psystar bought Mac OS X off the shelf and installed it onto a hackintosh, they are stealing nothing (I'm not saying that's what they are doing, but they very well could be).

I made a hackintosh last year. It was a fun project, and saved me close to $1000 when I was done. I also had a Mac that was better than any iMac out there, and maybe better than the Mac Pros. I paid around $1300 to build a Core i7 iMac, which is still faster than any iMac out there (it also has a ridiculous amount of RAM and a WAYYY better video card in it which will buy more processing power in the long run anyway). But my point is--I stole nothing. I bought a family pack of Leopard when it came out, so I installed it in my hackintosh. Against the EULA for sure, but nobody has every proven that EULAs are enforceable. So I stole no Apple IP as far as I am concerned, and Psystar may (not) be either.

Also I hope everybody whining about Apple's IP always pays for every MP3, DVD and piece of software they own--amazing how many Mac fans I've met who pirate the sh*t out of DVDs but still swear it's a sin to build a hackintosh. That includes ripping DVDs, even ones you already own, which is a big no-no.

Well said, but Bro - they are not interested in what we say, they are just interested in repeating the same bs they read over the net. Basically, the issue comes down to this: is Apple "law" the law of the land? Now, if Psystar are breaking the law of the land, then they should burn. If not, scr*w apple and their EULA.

Anyway, I have decided not to purchase a Mac, until apple introduces something that I actually want and for a decent price. Hackintosh... here I come!
post #156 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

Yeah, about 3 years after Apple started.

The original Bondi Blue iMac came out in 1998. The only tray load G3 iMac. Gateway released something in the AOI category in 1999. It is unfortunate, speaking of tray load, that all Macs, less the Pro, use slot load optical drives. While it is way clear why, it also means no 3 inch media can be used. Apple has been trying to fix this about as long as the Resolution Independence thing. I suppose Psystar uses tray load. Strangely enough, the Open (3) looks almost identical to my old slimline HP. If these guys were smart, they would sell their machines as "Mac OS Ready" but not include the OS. Wouldn't that keep them out of trouble?
post #157 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

If not, scr*w apple and their EULA.

So copyright and/or patents have no baring here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WPLJ42 View Post

If these guys were smart, they would sell their machines as "Mac OS Ready" but not include the OS. Wouldn't that keep them out of trouble?

I see nothing illegal with this maneuver, nor do I see anything illegal with EFI-X solution.
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post #158 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano_tube View Post

Well said, but Bro - they are not interested in what we say, they are just interested in repeating the same bs they read over the net. Basically, the issue comes down to this: is Apple "law" the law of the land? Now, if Psystar are breaking the law of the land, then they should burn. If not, scr*w apple and their EULA.

Fatal error, end program.

It's not about the EULA. The laws of the land which Apple contends have been broken by Psystar are copyright, patent and trademark protections. The law is all on Apple's side. I have never seen a serious, informed person argue otherwise.
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post #159 of 227
[QUOTE=Halvri;1444226]The version of Vista I'm talking about is the full direct install version of Ultimate. Microsoft specifically sells upgrade versions of Windows to people who already have another version of the operating system. If you buy Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade and hack it to work as a full install, you just committed a crime, the same way as installing OS X on non-Apple hardware.

Companies price different versions of different operating systems differently because they serve different purposes. If Apple specifically markets and prices its software as an upgrade, subsidized by its hardware and you hack it, you have committed a crime. I don't care what jurisdiction you argue that in, you will be found guilty.

Quote:
And as to your comment about EULAs, can an eight year old scan his debit card and buy one? Do not several companies require you be a certain age to even purchase software with an applicable EULA?

No, no company has age limits on purchasing software. How can they--do they require ID at the Apple store? I saw a very young high school aged girl buy an iPod Shuffle. She'll probably be the one to install it. It was only $60, she paid cash. I doubt in any court she could be held to the terms of the EULA. With click-wrap EULAs (like Mac OS X), the license agreement is not binding until the "End User" clicks agree because you cannot view the agreement until you install the software. In this case no contract can even be enforced until the user sits down at the computer and clicks Agree, in which case Mom can buy the software and little Johnny can install it.

Quote:
As to what content I own, it has no bearing here, but no, I don't have any ripped DVDs or movies downloaded from torrents. As annoying as I find the idea of not ripping DVDs to be, I can understand it: there really is nothing stopping me from making copies and distributing them to my friends/family. So, again, whether you agree with the law or not on ripping DVDs, you are violating it in doing so.

There's nothing stopping people from making copies and distributing MP3 purchased from the Apple Store, now that there's no DRM. So that argument from the MPAA is moot.


Quote:
Seriously, don't just take my opinion, how many top software companies do you know of that have headquarters in the European Union? The EU has no respect for intellectual property, the U.S. and Japan do. Disguising that lack of respect as anti-competitive laws doesn't make it any less apparent.

Headquarters have no legal bearing. As long as you sell your products in the EU you are bound by their copyright and IP laws. Which is why the iPhone is required to be sold unlocked in France.

And don't talk about the US' "respect" for intellectual property. You have no clue how much "respect" US citizens actually have for IP until you go to a college campus and find the 8TB drives RAID'ed together full of ripped movies. A law is only as good if most people agree with it, and many people happen to disagree with this government's stance on IP. I know that doesn't make it legal or in some cases right, but it does show that many people disagree with the philosophy that they don't own the content they purchase.

Quote:
And as someone who writes software, you should appreciate Intellectual Property law since it exists to protect your right to fair compensation and usage. I've said this before, if an artist opens an exhibit of a painter's most famous works covered in excrement, the painter has every right to have that exhibit shut done because its misusing his/her IP. And Bob Dylan has every right to sue a man who decides it's okay to do an album of covers of his songs without first receiving his permission.

I do have a problem with people pirating software. However that's not what is at issue here. The issue is whether people have the right to use the software as they see fit. What if I put in my EULA a line that said you can only install the software on pink computers with polka dots? Unless you read every line of the EULA, which includes the EULAs that may come down AFTER you installed the software, you (and not me) could be held liable for damages done by "the software" when it is run on computers without polka dots. You don't find that incredulous? Yet it's legal, until a court says it's not. And you thought we were a litigious society now, wait until the courts have to approve every EULA.

Quote:
And the thing is, legally speaking, if you believe in property rights of any sort, then yes, to get a midtower of the sort you speak of, you have to buy Windows because it's the only OS that will realistically have the drivers and software to take advantage of that power right now.

Buzz. Wrong. My hackintosh has the proper drives thanks mostly to Apple, thanks some to open source. I have the same video card, high end, that was in the Mac Pros--in my "iMac" replacement. The drivers were part of 10.5. It's just that Apple only had them available for Mac Pros, and only as a ridiculously priced add on. The iMacs were (are) stuck with a 2006-era video card.

Quote:
One last thing, though, hell fucking no a Core i7 is not better than a Xeon. The entire point of the Xeon line is reliability. They are tested to a rigorous standard that off the shelf i7s simply never go through. The same is true of the RAM being used in conjunction with them.

Never said it was. It is WAY better though then the Penryn Apple is currently putting into the iMacs. Even the newest iMacs get smoked by my 8 month old computer. You are comparing my $1300 late 2008 Hackintosh to a mid 2009 Xeon Mac Pro that costs $3000 when you add in the 6GB RAM, video card and extra USB ports I have. You don't find that funny? And you know what: for tasks that only use 4 CPUs (which is basically EVERYTHING I do) I'd bet my computer gives the Xeon Mac Pros a run for their money, all $3000 of it.
post #160 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79 View Post

Never said it was. It is WAY better though then the Penryn Apple is currently putting into the iMacs. Even the newest iMacs get smoked by my 8 month old computer. You are comparing my $1300 late 2008 Hackintosh to a mid 2009 Xeon Mac Pro that costs $3000 when you add in the 6GB RAM, video card and extra USB ports I have. You don't find that funny?

You dont find it funny that you are comparing desktop components to mobile components in an AIO?

You earlier posts suggest that because Apple doesnt offer the exact product you want that Psystar is allowed to bypass any right that Apple has for licensing their copyrighted material, simply because they bought a copy of the OS. You dont find that funny?
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