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Palin's Sailin' - Page 8

post #281 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Will it, in every case, say where outside Hawaii the child was born? It's more complicated than you might think.

Obama's online 'birth cert' misses 'proving' eligibility



As of the date of that article, the website stated that only a Certificate of Live Birth (Long Form) was acceptable. I remember reading it and noting that it clearly stated such. The website has since been updated/altered.

In fact, the article quotes the original requirement:

"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green," the qualifications state. "This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."

They said they use information that is found "only on the original Certificate of Live Birth". Certifications of Live Birth were accepted, but required "additional verification".

Another Wing Nut Daily link? Go figure.

Feed the fire. Fan the flames. Incite a riot. It's working in direct opposition to what you may think. All is good. Keep it going. Marginalization of the right is what we are all after after all. We quite obviously are succeeding. Keep up the good work.

And then?
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post #282 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Keep on reading:






No, it really isn't that simple, as indicated by the passage I quoted above.



You are the first person to mention race in this argument, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Where a person is born has nothing to do with his/her race, anyway. I wouldn't care if Obama was born in the U.K., Lithuania, or South Africa. If he is not a natural born citizen of the United States of America, then he is ineligible to hold the office of president.



And what? The information on the website originally stated that the Long Form Certificate was required, as they needed information that could be found only on that document.

And then?
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post #283 of 594
Does anyone really think Obama's presidency will be declared null and void?
post #284 of 594
Quote:
"Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle. "

Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

Fantastic.

Not every difference of opinion is a difference of principle, but some are. For instance, a principle I try to stick with is that arguments I make need evidence in their favor.

What I’m wondering is this:
Do you have any evidence to offer that would indicate that Barack Obama was not born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii?

And a follow-up to that:
How does that evidence compare against:
- a verified birth certificate claiming that he was born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii
- newspaper birth announcements claiming that he was born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii
- Obama’s never having been denied any office or privelege as a United States citizen
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post #285 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Does anyone really think Obama's presidency will be declared null and void?

No. But this gets the base aggitated enough that that's all the Republicans hear at their town hall meetings, extremerightwingnutjobs, losing it, majorly.

Our plan is working.

Palinites and Dittoheads are also being used to our own ends.

Ba,ha,ha,ha,ha, ...
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post #286 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Wasn't there an investigation and even a Congressional hearing on John McCain's eligibility?

Where's the Congressional hearing on Obama's eligibility?

Officials saying "trust us, he's legit" is not enough. Would that be enough for you if McCain was president and his eligibility were still in question?

Produce the original birth certificate, and this all goes away.

You are certainly entitled to your own assumptions as to the motivation/intent of those questioning Obama's eligibility. But note that you are the first person to mention race in this argument.

Do you have evidence that Hawaii didn't change its policies?

Do you have direct incontrovertible binding legal evidence that Hawaii did legally change its policies specifically and exclusively for Obama?

Statutes? List the pertinent legal statute(s) that are involved here. From the Hawaii state code(s) of law. Bring a case up to the Hawaiian courts and actually win a single legally binding case.

Nah, everyone loves an extremerightwingnutjob conspiracy theory.

And then?
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post #287 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If a Certification of Live Birth is not enough to get a U.S. passport, why should it be enough to be President?

Why are you asking me to provide proof to back up my claims, and not asking Obama and the "officials" to do the same?

And by way of small request, I feel I've been pretty civil in my arguments, I'd appreciate the same courtesy. These backhanded comments directed at those who agree with me (and me by association) are really unneccessary.

Fact: I have a passport using a copy of my Certification of Live Birth, also known as the short form.

When did the U.S. Code of law change? Be specific, precise, exact, and to the point.
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post #288 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

No. But this gets the base aggitated enough that that's all the Republicans here at their town hall meetings, extremerightwingnutjobs, losing it, majorly.

I really don't get what point they're trying to make, and who said this?
Quote:
If a Certification of Live Birth is not enough to get a U.S. passport, why should it be enough to be President?

Yet he has one.
post #289 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

I really don't get what point they're trying to make, and who said this?

The TeeVee told me so. Public meetings on the R side of the fence are going astray because of the Birthers.

They stole our country and we want it back type of gibberish.
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post #290 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle. "

Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

groverat's quote is quite pertinent in the current context, the quote above makes no sense whatsoever in the current context.

And then?
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post #291 of 594
When did this become a "Birther" thread?

I thought we were bashing what's her name in this thread?
post #292 of 594
Quote:
When did this become a "Birther" thread?

Sarah Palin is the current queen of the dregs of the American right-wing.
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post #293 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Fantastic.

Not every difference of opinion is a difference of principle, but some are. For instance, a principle I try to stick with is that arguments I make need evidence in their favor.

What Im wondering is this:
Do you have any evidence to offer that would indicate that Barack Obama was not born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii?

And a follow-up to that:
How does that evidence compare against:
- a verified birth certificate claiming that he was born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii
- newspaper birth announcements claiming that he was born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii
- Obamas never having been denied any office or privelege as a United States citizen

Do I have any evidence? No, I personally do not. Do you?

The Hawaiian State Government claims to have the ultimate piece of evidence on file: a copy of Obama's long form birth certificate.

If that had been produced when the question was first raised, we would not be having this discussion.

The fact that Obama refuses to release it only leads us to conclude that he has something to hide.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #294 of 594
Thread Starter 
When even Bill O'Reilly is calling the Birther Theory bogus, you just know it's the territory of irrational extremists.

Quote:
In his "Talking Points Memo" segment, O'Reilly said:

"That theory has been around for a while. The Factor investigated, found out it's bogus. But Mr. Dobbs is still engaged...

Again, we found out that President Obama was born in Hawaii.. we were sent the documents. And what are you gonna do? I don't know why it's still around..."
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post #295 of 594
Quote:
Do I have any evidence? No, I personally do not.

Excellent. Thanks for admitting it.

Quote:
Do you?

For what? My belief that Obama was born in Honolulu?

- his birth certificate saying he was born in Honolulu
- the confirmation of many different Hawaiian officials that he was born in Honolulu
- a birth announcement in a local paper at the time of his birth
- his 57 years of existence without any evidence surfacing of him being born anywhere other than Honolulu

Quote:
The Hawaiian State Government claims to have the ultimate piece of evidence on file: a copy of Obama's long form birth certificate.

Where is that claimed?
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post #296 of 594
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Do I have any evidence? No, I personally do not. Do you?

The Hawaiian State Government claims to have the ultimate piece of evidence on file: a copy of Obama's long form birth certificate.

If that had been produced when the question was first raised, we would not be having this discussion.

The fact that Obama refuses to release it only leads us to conclude that he has something to hide.

If the highly extraordinary step of un-vaulting an original birth certificate to verify place of birth were taken, we would then be treated to "rumors" of how the CIA's best document forgers created it and switched it out with the REAL original with the complicity of Hawaii DEMOCRAT state officials.
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post #297 of 594
There is no evidence that there is an "original" birth certificate locked away anywhere. This idiotic conspiracy theory is built on the faked expertise of FWD:FWD:FWD sheep around the nation pretending that they know more about Hawaii's birth records than the Hawaiian officials who are actually in charge of birth records.

These people are demanding the production of something that doesn't seem to exist to prove something that has already been proven.
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post #298 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Where is that claimed?

CNN wrong once again birth record not destroyed

Quote:
Directly contradicting CNN chief Jon Klein who ordered host Lou Dobbs to quit discussing President Obama's birth certificate the Hawaii Department of Health affirmed that no paper birth certificates were destroyed when the department moved to electronic record-keeping.

"I am not aware of any birth certificate records that have been destroyed by the department," Janice Okubo, public information officer for the Hawaii DOH, told WND. "When the department went electronic in 2001, vital records, whether in paper form or any other form, [were] maintained. We don't destroy records."

Okubo affirmed that beginning in 2001, all vital records, including birth records, moved to electronic formats.

"Any records that we had in paper or any other form before 2001 are still in file within the department," she insisted. "We have not destroyed any vital statistics records that we have."

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #299 of 594
I didn't ask whether or not Hawaiian officials had claimed that no documents had been destroyed when they moved to electronic record keeping.

You said this:
The Hawaiian State Government claims to have the ultimate piece of evidence on file: a copy of Obama's long form birth certificate.

Can you back this statement up?

You have made a very specific claim, that Hawaii has on file a copy of Obama's long-form birth certificate, all I am asking is that you back it up.
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post #300 of 594
If you really wanted to know, you would have done the research yourself.

Obama's birth certificate sealed by Hawaii governor

Whistling for a Wind

Quote:
According to an AP story, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Health Director with the Hawaii State Department of Health, has issued a new statement seeking to "stem a recent surge in the number of inquiries about Obama's birthplace." "I…have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen….I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issue in October 2008, over eight months ago." AP asserts that "Fukino issued a similar press release Oct. 31." However, in his statement in October Fukino said "I…have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures." The original statement said nothing about the content of the birth record. The new statement therefore goes significantly farther than the original statement in October, though both the AP story and Fukino herself give the deceptive impression that it does not. Given this evident obfuscation, why should I or anyone else simply take Fukino's words at face value?

They have the original birth certificate on record. If there is nothing for Obama to hide, why not produce it and silence all the critics?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #301 of 594
You said that Hawaii claims to have on file a copy of "Obama's long form birth certificate". Those are your words. Can you back them up?

We have a quotation from Health Director Dr. Chiyone Fukino claiming that she saw "the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health".

From that you draw two completely unwarranted conclusions:
1 - "original vital records" and "original birth certificate" means "long form birth certificate"
2 - Hawaiian officials are hiding something.

FactCheck.ORG saw, handled, and photographed the "original birth certificate".

FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

So I'll ask again: Where do you get the information that Hawaii has claimed to have the "long form birth certificate" on file?

Quote:
They have the original birth certificate on record. If there is nothing for Obama to hide, why not produce it and silence all the critics?

Critics are only silenced by evidence when their criticisms are evidence-based. You believe something while admitting that you have no evidence for it. Satisfactory evidence exists that Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii.

Critics whose beliefs are not based on evidence will not be silenced by evidence.
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post #302 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

You said that Hawaii claims to have on file a copy of "Obama's long form birth certificate". Those are your words. Can you back them up?

We have a quotation from Health Director Dr. Chiyone Fukino claiming that she saw "the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health".

From that you draw two completely unwarranted conclusions:
1 - "original vital records" and "original birth certificate" means "long form birth certificate"
2 - Hawaiian officials are hiding something.

FactCheck.ORG saw, handled, and photographed the "original birth certificate".

FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

So I'll ask again: Where do you get the information that Hawaii has claimed to have the "long form birth certificate" on file?



Critics are only silenced by evidence when their criticisms are evidence-based. You believe something while admitting that you have no evidence for it. Satisfactory evidence exists that Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii.

Critics whose beliefs are not based on evidence will not be silenced by evidence.

Wrong. FactCheck.org staffers saw and handled the Certification of Live Birth (short form), NOT the Certificate of Live Birth (long form).

There is a difference.

The Certification of Live Birth (short form) is derived from and based on information found on the Certificate of Live Birth (long form).

The long form contains information such as the hospital and attending physician. The short form lacks such details.

When Hawaii Officials state they have the "original" certificate on file, they would not be referring to the short form certificate, as it is not a complete record.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #303 of 594
Quote:
When Hawaii Officials state they have the "original" certificate on file, they would not be referring to the short form certificate, as it is not a complete record.

This is exactly what I mean by: "This idiotic conspiracy theory is built on the faked expertise of FWD:FWD:FWD sheep around the nation pretending that they know more about Hawaii's birth records than the Hawaiian officials who are actually in charge of birth records."

You have admitted that you have no evidence, and your argument survives solely because you want to believe that you know more about Hawaii's birth records than the Hawaii State Health Director and the Hawaii State Registrar.

You have no authority or expertise to challenge either of those people without compelling evidence on your side. Unfortunately, you have absolutely no evidence at all.

You are in no position to say that it is not a "complete record".
You are in no position to say that anyone is hiding a "long-form birth certificate".
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post #304 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

This is exactly what I mean by: "This idiotic conspiracy theory is built on the faked expertise of FWD:FWD:FWD sheep around the nation pretending that they know more about Hawaii's birth records than the Hawaiian officials who are actually in charge of birth records."

You have admitted that you have no evidence, and your argument survives solely because you want to believe that you know more about Hawaii's birth records than the Hawaii State Health Director and the Hawaii State Registrar.

You have no authority or expertise to challenge either of those people without compelling evidence on your side. Unfortunately, you have absolutely no evidence at all.

You are in no position to say that it is not a "complete record".
You are in no position to say that anyone is hiding a "long-form birth certificate".

There are an awful lot of "you"s in that post. Refute what I'm saying without making it personal, please.

Obama's long form birth certificate has yet to be produced. I believe that in order for the matter to be settled once and for all, we must see that long form certificate. Until we do, I will continue to talk about it when the opportunity arises.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #305 of 594
Quote:
There are an awful lot of "you"s in that post. Refute what I'm saying without making it personal, please.

Your argument right now is built entirely on statements with no backing, so the only credibility on offer here is yours. If you had evidence, we could discuss evidence. Do you sincerely not understand what I mean?

If I promote an idea and my only offer in support of that idea were my own statements, how could you avoid discussing my credibility?

Quote:
Obama's long form birth certificate has yet to be produced.

This certainly seems to be the case.

Quote:
I believe that in order for the matter to be settled once and for all, we must see that long form certificate.

There are multiple problems here:
1 – Any complaint not based in evidence will not be satisfied by evidence.
2 – The matter already is settled insofar as any matter can be settled.
3 – The objections that exist to the short form can still exist for the long form. (re: Corsi’s accusations of forgery, accusations of Hawaiian corruption, etc…)

Point #3 is worth considering carefully, as it is the nature of a conspiracy theorist to adapt to counterproductive evidence.

Quote:
Until we do, I will continue to talk about it when the opportunity arises.

And I will continue to ridicule the counter-factual lunacy that is the birther movement.
Feel free to talk about it all you like, because it does a delightful job of destroying credibility.
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post #306 of 594
You win.

Next?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #307 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Your argument right now is built entirely on statements with no backing, so the only credibility on offer here is yours. If you had evidence, we could discuss evidence. Do you sincerely not understand what I mean?

If I promote an idea and my only offer in support of that idea were my own statements, how could you avoid discussing my credibility?



This certainly seems to be the case.



There are multiple problems here:
1 – Any complaint not based in evidence will not be satisfied by evidence.
2 – The matter already is settled insofar as any matter can be settled.
3 – The objections that exist to the short form can still exist for the long form. (re: Corsi’s accusations of forgery, accusations of Hawaiian corruption, etc…)

Point #3 is worth considering carefully, as it is the nature of a conspiracy theorist to adapt to counterproductive evidence.



And I will continue to ridicule the counter-factual lunacy that is the birther movement.
Feel free to talk about it all you like, because it does a delightful job of destroying credibility.

BTW, we had this exact same discussion in PO a month or two ago. Same players (except for you). Same capitulation.

All the same salient points made then have now been through the ringer a 2nd time, maybe even a 3rd, 4th, 5th, ..., Nth time. Don't exactly remember any Birther discussions in PO from last year though. As all the extremerightwingnutjobs disappeared from PO for about a month prior to the general election. I wonder why?

A good conspiracy theory never dies. It can only get more convoluted.

Now if you presented the exact same logic to all those 80 IQ dumb fucks from Bum Fuck, USA, what do you think they would say? That ... stole our country. And that's what they will always say. Until someone ... that ...

Truthers. Birthers. Wankers.
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post #308 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle. "

Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

You're welcome. However, I prefer that you understand the quotes I provide you as opposed to parroting them somewhat out of context. A relevant part of his speech for this forum and for Republicans in general was the very next line:

"We are all republicans, we are all federalists".
post #309 of 594
Out with a pout and a whimper. Ready to come back with the same warrantless bullshit in a month or two.

*laments how mean everyone has been to Sarah Palin with frivolous ethics complaints*

*demands redundant documentation to prove that Barack Obama was born where his birth certificate says he was born*
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post #310 of 594
Thread Starter 
Does this mean we can go back to laughing at Sarah Palin's perpetual self-parody now?

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post #311 of 594
Powell said on Larry King Sara isn't ready for prez.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #312 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Out with a pout and a whimper. Ready to come back with the same warrantless bullshit in a month or two.

*laments how mean everyone has been to Sarah Palin with frivolous ethics complaints*

*demands redundant documentation to prove that Barack Obama was born where his birth certificate says he was born*

In a month or two? You wish.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #313 of 594
Just read a nice comment somewhere that said the Repubs were against Sotomayor (couldn't even be bothered to pronounce her name right or show up for the vote) because she seemingly didn't have the smarts to ... but they rallied behind Sara ...

Racism and a celebration of ignorance.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #314 of 594
Well let's kick it back off!

I'll start it with a question, just one:

- What would the long form birth certificate establish with regard to Constitutional eligibility that the short form does not?
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post #315 of 594
Thread Starter 
Ooooh, I've got One Question, too!

http://www.politifact.com/media/img/...hCertObama.jpg

Can you explain the meaning of the line at the bottom of the Certificate?

This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding. [HRS 338-13(b), 338-19]
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post #316 of 594
Anyone see this on The Tonight Show?

William Shatner does Sarah Palin's goodbye speech ( interpreted in a kind of beatnik coffee house way ). LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOC7WrPA1bA
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #317 of 594
Youtube comment:

Sarah Palin is a vacuous, incurious, poorly educated hockey mom with delusions of grandeur that far exceed her rather limited abilities. She is neither well read nor well informed, and has difficulty voicing coherent thoughts without the help of professional speech writers and cue cards. No clear-thinking person would want such a vacuous woman in the White House.
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post #318 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Anyone see this on The Tonight Show?

William Shatner does Sarah Palin's goodbye speech ( interpreted in a kind of beatnik coffee house way ). LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOC7WrPA1bA

Linked to it back at 259... but I said it was Captain Kirk... And that was before we went off on Obama's birth certificate.

It's pretty funny.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #319 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Well let's kick it back off!

I'll start it with a question, just one:

- What would the long form birth certificate establish with regard to Constitutional eligibility that the short form does not?

We would know the doctor's name so we can grill him about Obama's alleged tail and horns when he was born.
post #320 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Linked to it back at 259... but I said it was Captain Kirk... And that was before we went off on Obama's birth certificate.

It's pretty funny.

Yes I guess I should have checked back a page! And yes Palin's a wealth of humor!

Also I think Shatner is a pretty funny ( and talented ) guy these days. He doesn't seem to take himself so seriously.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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