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post #361 of 594
New Poll: Less Than Half Of Republicans Believe Obama Was Born In U.S.


Quote:
Read More: Birtherism, Daily Kos Poll, Obama, Obama Birth, Obama Birth Place, Obama Hawaii, Obama Republicans Birther, Republican Birthers, Republicans Obama, Research 2000, Politics News


Less than half of Republicans believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America, a new public opinion poll finds.

Only 42 percent of Republican respondents in a Research 2000 survey, conducted for the liberal website Daily Kos, said they thought Obama was a natural born citizen; 28 percent said they did not believe Obama was born in the United States; 30 percent said they were not sure.

The responses, which were gathered after several prominent conservative media personalities fed suspicion that Obama was unconstitutionally holding office, show the extent to which the conspiracy has taken hold in the GOP.

That only a plurality of Republicans were willing to acknowledge the president was born in America is nothing short of astounding, considering the preponderance of evidence that confirms his Hawaiian birth.

The conspiracy has a regional flavor. Overall, even including Democrats and independents, only 47 percent of respondents in the South said they believed Obama was born in America, with 23 percent saying he was not and 30 percent saying they were unsure. In the Northeast and Midwest, the percentage of respondents who believe Obama was born in the U.S. was over 90 percent.

Ninety-three percent of Democrats say the president was born in the United States, as do 83 percent of independents.

The Research 2000 findings were pulled together from a survey of 2,400 adults.

Exactly what groverat and I have been speaking about.
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post #362 of 594
trumptman:

Quote:
Obama could simply request it and release it. I mean that is all that really needs to be done.

Why would Obama request a copy of his own birth certificate?

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BTW, what dog whistles were being raised when forum members raised issues about McCain via a NY Times article about his eligibility. Sounds like the same nonsense coming back to bite people in the butt.

The only person in that thread even vaguely arguing that it might be a problem worth considering is a conservative.

Nice work.

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Good for you and if you construct a personal/political narrative around information contrary to that fact, make sure to keep it hidden.

What might he be hiding? Do you have any specific ideas or is it just a general "don't trust dark foreigners" thing?

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When Palin had to disclose her daughter's pregnancy to turn back the "witchhunt" the only points scored were political. I said from the very beginning this feels very much the same.

If we assume it is the same, how does it feel to have gone from whining about the witchhunt to spearheading it?

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I highlighted them along with the "you" and "yours." Go back and find them yourself.

They do not exist. I haven't called you any names. Stop pouting.

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Yes, all of us who live in the unenlightened, tolerant places are ignorant and those of us who live in the intolerant, ignorant racist places are enlightened.

Not all of you, just some. Clearly.

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The irony of the good ol' boys from Texas and Ol' Miss screaming that a guy from California is a racist because of the dog whistle he is blowing while also being ignorant of the dog whistle since he doesn't live in a place where it would be used.

Did I say you were a racist? No.
I will happily say that you're blowing a racist dog whistle because you value partisan theater more than social justice.

If you would like to deny the racist/xenophobic connection that is your business. However, it does not take a great deal of intellectual honesty or strength to understand the tremendous regional variance in "birther" beliefs.

Your position makes it easier for you to ignore the Mason-Dixon line. You can exploit it all you like, but do not expect me to not ridicule and mock you for it. It is my right to call out your tactics just as it is your right to blow the dog whistle.

53% of Southerners will not say Obama was born in America.
7% of Northwesterners will not say Obama was born in America.

Do you have an explanation for this regional variance that does not involve racism and xenophobia?
proud resident of a failed state
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post #363 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Who said anything about fear? Find the quote. The entire problem is you making up nonsense to justify mistreating your fellow forum members.

Speaking of ignorant hate not being spread with specific accusations, it sounds like exactly what you are doing.



Part of what has fed this nonsense is sorting through all the dust tossed up related to it. You know that dust well because you are tossing it up now. People have requested it, been told the short form as the only form, were told the original was destroyed and wasn't available, and that surrogates have seen it and we should trust their word, but the original itself exists but cannot be seen.

Obama could simply request it and release it. I mean that is all that really needs to be done.

BTW, what dog whistles were being raised when forum members raised issues about McCain via a NY Times article about his eligibility. Sounds like the same nonsense coming back to bite people in the butt.



Good for you and if you construct a personal/political narrative around information contrary to that fact, make sure to keep it hidden.



There is a reason I quote you.

The best I can do is mock and bash the conspiracy theory in a way that is clear enough to make sure that others who are reading are not tempted by the insane bullshit.

You have to personally attack me to protect the "others."



Politics doesn't need a cause. It doesn't even need to be rational. Obama was elected on HOPE and CHANGE. I said from the beginning that I believed it wasn't any sort of legal issue but a straight up political issue. When Palin had to disclose her daughter's pregnancy to turn back the "witchhunt" the only points scored were political. I said from the very beginning this feels very much the same. Why did we care if Sanford was walking a trail or screwing his mistress? It is a political scorecard.



I highlighted the points and others have called them out as well. Enjoy the delusion.



Who would dare limit a man with so many posts spamming, I mean spanning the internet to a single source? Sure there are several articles today out there that hit the talking points that it isn't just racist, but xenophobic but I would never limit you to just one. I'm sure you read them several of them within the liberal media echo chamber.



I highlighted them along with the "you" and "yours." Go back and find them yourself.



Yes and you continue to live there while apparently noting that not much has changed. You certainly note that your family is not of limited financial means. Why keep frequenting the same place where the white people all enjoy their hate so much? I mean certainly there are other parts of the country where you can talk football and eat BBQ as well?



Yes, all of us who live in the unenlightened, tolerant places are ignorant and those of us who live in the intolerant, ignorant racist places are enlightened.

The irony of the good ol' boys from Texas and Ol' Miss screaming that a guy from California is a racist because of the dog whistle he is blowing while also being ignorant of the dog whistle since he doesn't live in a place where it would be used.

This reasoning just gets more and more fun.



Sorry, I guess us Californians just don't understand phrases like...



.......to mean minority white and racially diverse. Since you are a white person in Houston, I suppose you also include yourself in that claim.



I guess I don't understand the dog whistle while being accused of using it exactly for that purpose. Again, wonderful reasoning. I'll keep trotting out that dog whistle to control people I don't understand using concepts I'm not familiar with and code words I haven't lived around because that is exactly what you claimed I was doing before claiming I was ignorant about it.

This is hilarious. No not hilarious... Grove will say I'm angry... VERY ANGRY about all of this.



Yes, I'll stir them up while being completely ignorant about it. I'll both get it and not get it and in the meantime I'll be very, very ANGRY!

Dude, you crack me up.

Typical broken record response, rehashing of the same old tired Birther conspiracy theory talking points for the 3rd time now.

But go right on posting these oh so very long and verbose rants, screeds, and manifestos.

Oh, and don't forget a tinfoil hat and remember to step onto that well worn PO soapbox.
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post #364 of 594
Quote:
Birthers are mostly Republican and Southern

by kos

Fri Jul 31, 2009 at 08:20:37 AM PDT

Research 2000 for Daily Kos. 7/27-30. All adults. MoE 2% (No trend lines)
Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
Yes 77
No 11
Not sure 12



So 11 percent of Americans are Obama-hating conspiracy theorists. How do they break down?
Yes No Not sure
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
Ind 83 8 9
Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6



Once again, Republicans find themselves outside the American mainstream. And reality.

You Betcha!
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post #365 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

trumptman:

Why would Obama request a copy of his own birth certificate?

How about to stop the country from discussing nonsense instead of your agenda? I mean you make it sound like he doesn't give pre-screened answers to pre-screened questions or have all manner of personnel hired related to controlling the news cycle and getting his message out there.

If a piece of paper could get control of the message back, you do it. Just like you plant a garden, go for custard and buy two guys a beer.

Quote:
The only person in that thread even vaguely arguing that it might be a problem worth considering is a conservative.

Nice work.

So there we have the secret! Conservatives were really bashing McCain so they could later bash Obama and got the story out there via their surrogates in the NY Times. Oh the irony! I wouldn't want to be around when Northgate finds out you called him a conservative. Texas isn't that far of a drive.

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What might he be hiding? Do you have any specific ideas or is it just a general "don't trust dark foreigners" thing?

I gave my ideas and ample examples to illustrate them. Enjoy taking another cheap shot though.

Quote:
If we assume it is the same, how does it feel to have gone from whining about the witchhunt to spearheading it?

I'm not spearheading it.(Also I take issue with your word spearheading. Clearly this is code talk for claiming you hate Obama since you mentioned such words while discussing him. It must be racist or hanging out with racists that makes such things happen.) I've not declared I need to see the certificate, that I think he isn't eligible or anything like that. It's a political forum and in it we discuss politics. The politics of the moment happens to be why can't Obama who completely masters and controls the media happen to shake this birther thing when he manages to shake most issues pretty quick. How come he can have him, Biden the other two gentlemen show up to give a nice photo op around the picnic table in an attempt to diffuse the also not relevant "stupidly" comment but can't think up something to deal with this.

Here I'll translate it into dog whistle Texan for you. If a man can BBQ chicken, steak, hamburgers and dogs, why the hell can't he handle pork ribs? What the hell is up with that?

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They do not exist. I haven't called you any names. Stop pouting.

Denial isn't just a river. There I translated that into Texan t-shirt for ya.

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Did I say you were a racist? No.

Yes. See not all of us are down in Houston taking notes on Longhorn football and the various audibles used to denote racial attacks. Some of us understand guilt by association as a logical ad-hom fallacy.

Premise A is a B
Premise A is also a C
Conclusion Therefore, all Bs are Cs


Quote:
I will happily say that you're blowing a racist dog whistle because you value partisan theater more than social justice.

Let's add this.

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But, as you said, you're just here to help stir up old hatreds and eat popcorn while you watch it burn.

Hmmmm. I denote I'm a spectator and you intentionally attach action to that. This happens repeatedly. The leap is clear. Watching is action. Watching is blowing.

Please quote where I said I value it. Recognition is not the same as valuing it. I've called it nothing but politics through this entire thread. Meanwhile you continue to toss racist claims all over the place.

Listen Mr. Dog Whistle expert. There is a reason why you are an expert and are practicing what you claim for others. Others besides myself have called you out on your claims. No one buys the nonsense.

Quote:
Not all of you, just some. Clearly.

Quote:
If you would like to deny the racist/xenophobic connection that is your business. However, it does not take a great deal of intellectual honesty or strength to understand the tremendous regional variance in "birther" beliefs.

Yes and when you cast aspersions that is a logical leap. Someone can question citizenship with out being a racist. The two are not tied together except in the muddled and illogical reasoning of liberals. I have no doubt that I can find a poll that shows regional differences in many political matters. When I make the leap, feel free to call me on it. If I slip into some brain damaged state where my frontal lobes cease to function and I start saying things like "New Yorkers are more likely to be truthers and thus want to burn Jew babies" make sure to call that reasoning crap.

Quote:
Your position makes it easier for you to ignore the Mason-Dixon line. You can exploit it all you like, but do not expect me to not ridicule and mock you for it. It is my right to call out your tactics just as it is your right to blow the dog whistle.

My position? The claim from you is that I both ignore and am ignorant of it at the same time. See since I'm a Californian, I just don't get that code talk, even while using it. This is what is ridiculous about the claim. It is why I laugh at it. It is why it is laughable.

Quote:
53% of Southerners will not say Obama was born in America.
7% of Northwesterners will not say Obama was born in America.

Do you have an explanation for this regional variance that does not involve racism and xenophobia?

Yes. See here in California where everyone is from somewhere else any talk of where someone was born is secretly code for nativism because everyone else including most whites were born somewhere else. In California the white minority immigrated from other states and mostly after WWII. In fact California just had it's first generation that was a home grown majority in the state and not from somewhere else. Perhaps this is why folks like yourself didn't pick up on the Sotomayor dog whistles while so many others did.

So here people just aren't likely to question it or think about it and if they won't do those two things, they won't come to any contrary questions. The question of where you are from or where you are born is studiously avoided for the most part in California because most people came here to get away from somewhere else.

BTW, when reading the poll I noted this..

Quote:
Once again, Republicans find themselves outside the American mainstream. And reality.

This right because popular argument has to stop now that Obama is submerged on a dozen issues and several polls show this for his job approval as well. Kos kids can't presume they are the right or the majority. Regional differences don't equal majority. Also a good look will show the tar and feather job (had to throw in some of that code talk for ya Mr. Texan) Kos as undertaken. Note how he and also you implicate entire regions due to 11% of the poll respondents.

You and he try to make it sound as if the majority of people in these regions believe in a certain manner when that is a break down of the 11%.

What can you expect from bad reasoning though but more of the same.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #366 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

How about to stop the country from discussing nonsense instead of your agenda? I mean you make it sound like he doesn't give pre-screened answers to pre-screened questions or have all manner of personnel hired related to controlling the news cycle and getting his message out there.

If a piece of paper could get control of the message back, you do it. Just like you plant a garden, go for custard and buy two guys a beer.



So there we have the secret! Conservatives were really bashing McCain so they could later bash Obama and got the story out there via their surrogates in the NY Times. Oh the irony! I wouldn't want to be around when Northgate finds out you called him a conservative. Texas isn't that far of a drive.



I gave my ideas and ample examples to illustrate them. Enjoy taking another cheap shot though.



I'm not spearheading it.(Also I take issue with your word spearheading. Clearly this is code talk for claiming you hate Obama since you mentioned such words while discussing him. It must be racist or hanging out with racists that makes such things happen.) I've not declared I need to see the certificate, that I think he isn't eligible or anything like that. It's a political forum and in it we discuss politics. The politics of the moment happens to be why can't Obama who completely masters and controls the media happen to shake this birther thing when he manages to shake most issues pretty quick. How come he can have him, Biden the other two gentlemen show up to give a nice photo op around the picnic table in an attempt to diffuse the also not relevant "stupidly" comment but can't think up something to deal with this.

Here I'll translate it into dog whistle Texan for you. If a man can BBQ chicken, steak, hamburgers and dogs, why the hell can't he handle pork ribs? What the hell is up with that?



Denial isn't just a river. There I translated that into Texan t-shirt for ya.



Yes. See not all of us are down in Houston taking notes on Longhorn football and the various audibles used to denote racial attacks. Some of us understand guilt by association as a logical ad-hom fallacy.

Premise A is a B
Premise A is also a C
Conclusion Therefore, all Bs are Cs



Let's add this.



Hmmmm. I denote I'm a spectator and you intentionally attach action to that. This happens repeatedly. The leap is clear. Watching is action. Watching is blowing.

Please quote where I said I value it. Recognition is not the same as valuing it. I've called it nothing but politics through this entire thread. Meanwhile you continue to toss racist claims all over the place.

Listen Mr. Dog Whistle expert. There is a reason why you are an expert and are practicing what you claim for others. Others besides myself have called you out on your claims. No one buys the nonsense.





Yes and when you cast aspersions that is a logical leap. Someone can question citizenship with out being a racist. The two are not tied together except in the muddled and illogical reasoning of liberals. I have no doubt that I can find a poll that shows regional differences in many political matters. When I make the leap, feel free to call me on it. If I slip into some brain damaged state where my frontal lobes cease to function and I start saying things like "New Yorkers are more likely to be truthers and thus want to burn Jew babies" make sure to call that reasoning crap.



My position? The claim from you is that I both ignore and am ignorant of it at the same time. See since I'm a Californian, I just don't get that code talk, even while using it. This is what is ridiculous about the claim. It is why I laugh at it. It is why it is laughable.



Yes. See here in California where everyone is from somewhere else any talk of where someone was born is secretly code for nativism because everyone else including most whites were born somewhere else. In California the white minority immigrated from other states and mostly after WWII. In fact California just had it's first generation that was a home grown majority in the state and not from somewhere else. Perhaps this is why folks like yourself didn't pick up on the Sotomayor dog whistles while so many others did.

So here people just aren't likely to question it or think about it and if they won't do those two things, they won't come to any contrary questions. The question of where you are from or where you are born is studiously avoided for the most part in California because most people came here to get away from somewhere else.

BTW, when reading the poll I noted this..



This right because popular argument has to stop now that Obama is submerged on a dozen issues and several polls show this for his job approval as well. Kos kids can't presume they are the right or the majority. Regional differences don't equal majority. Also a good look will show the tar and feather job (had to throw in some of that code talk for ya Mr. Texan) Kos as undertaken. Note how he and also you implicate entire regions due to 11% of the poll respondents.

You and he try to make it sound as if the majority of people in these regions believe in a certain manner when that is a break down of the 11%.

What can you expect from bad reasoning though but more of the same.

What does a single state, California, have to do with two different and distinct regions of the counrty, namely the Northeast and the South? Explaining mobility of the Californian population in no way, shape, or form, explains the regional population mobility patterns elsewhere (which in these cases would be much less).

This is all too typical of the rhetorical tangents and dogdy logic you apply throughout all PO discussions.

In fact, the entire post above is filled with this type of tangential rhetoric.

And while you seem to have more than 247 to ramble on and on and on ..., I don't.

So I'll just leave it at that one example, as being one of many.

BTW, I've lived half my life in the deep Northeast and half my life in the deep South.

RIP
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post #367 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Note how he and also you implicate entire regions due to 11% of the poll respondents.

You and he try to make it sound as if the majority of people in these regions believe in a certain manner when that is a break down of the 11%.

Nope you are completely wrong there Bucko.

Quote:
Yes No Not sure
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
Ind 83 8 9
Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6

The above is a breakdown of the entire sample population (N = 2,400), not just 11% of the entire sample population (N = 2,400)

Quote:
GEOGRAPHIC BREAKDOWN:
Northeast:
DC, ME, VT, NY, MD, PA, CT, DE, MA, NH, RI, WV, NJ
South:
FL, NC, SC, AL, MS, GA, VA, TN, KY, LA, AR, TX
Midwest:
IL, MN, MI, OH, WI, IA, MO, KS, IN, ND, SD, OK, NE
West:
NM, CA, OR, WA, AK, HI, MT, ID, UT, NV, AZ, WY, CO

D'oh!



Quote:
The birth of a regional rump party

by Jed Lewison

Fri Jul 31, 2009 at 11:16:03 AM PDT

Here's another amazing finding from our poll showing that less than half of Republicans and southerners believe Barack Obama was born in the United States: 7 in 10 Americans who don't believe Barack Obama was born in the U.S. live in the south, which has 30% of the U.S. population. Nearly 6 in 10 are Republicans, who compromise just 22% of the population.

Here's the data in chart form, showing the distribution of people who either said they believed Pres. Obama was born outside the U.S. or that they were unsure:



Talk about a regional rump party. Jebus!

Note also that the numbers for the south are skewed downward, as the south demographically speaking, has a larger percentage of the population who are black, and assuming almost all black Americans (Yes= 97%, No = 1%, Unsure = 2%, n = 337 (or 14%) of the nationwide sample population (N = 2,400)) would believe Obama was born in the good old USofA, strongly suggests that most whites (perhaps even a very healthy majority) in the south doubt or are unsure that Obama was born in the good old USofA.

Heck, I don't know for sure where I was born (Springfield, VT), and I was there! How can anyone prove beyond a shadow of a doubt where they were born?
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post #368 of 594
The above analysis has some intentional flaws. DK isn't always concerned with the truth.


But BFD anyway. Birhters are republicans and Truthers are democrats. Each party has their own subset of whakos that cannot be placated. Film at 11.
post #369 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

The above analysis has some intentional flaws. DK isn't always concerned with the truth.


But BFD anyway. Birhters are republicans and Truthers are democrats. Each party has their own subset of whakos that cannot be placated. Film at 11.

Show us all some Truther statistics that include race and region if you don't mind. TIA

Quote:
QUESTION: Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?

YES NO NOT SURE
ALL 77 11 12
MEN 75 12 13
WOMEN 79 10 11
DEM 93 4 3
REP 42 28 30
IND 83 8 9
OTH/REF 80 9 11
NON VOTERS 84 7 9
WHITE 71 14 15
BLACK 97 1 2
LATINO 87 6 7
OTHER/REF 88 6 6
18-29 88 4 8
30-44 72 14 14
45-59 82 8 10
60+ 69 17 14
NORTHEAST 93 4 3
SOUTH 47 23 30
MIDWEST 90 6 4
WEST 87 7 6

Republicans = 58% No/Unsure

Whites = 29% No/Unsure

Ages 30 thru 44 = 28% (the Reagan Generation, err the Baby Busters (aka Busters), err Gen Y (also the age bracket of a certain individual who shall remain nameless))

Age 60 and above = 31% (people mostly older than the Boomers, and in the south the most likely to be actual racists given the south's all too well known history of racism, e. g. racist then just as they are racist now))

South = 53% (skewed downward because of the inclusion of the south's relatively larger black population (percentagewise), in other words this percentage would be several points higher if it were just the subset of southern whites, and I can prove it using 2008 U.S. Census Bureau data)

Now that we know who the majority of the Birther perps running amok are, southern white racists, we can move on to the Palinites, which was this thread's original topic.
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post #370 of 594
trumptman:

Quote:
How about to stop the country from discussing nonsense instead of your agenda?

People are not talking about this because of a lack of official documentation. Any suspicion of forgery in the short form will be extended to the long form. You do not fight racist conspiracies with government paper. You just ignore it and let the proponents marginalize and embarrass themselves.

It works fairly well, actually. Look how scared right-wing politicians and figureheads are of the birther nut brigade.

Quote:
Conservatives were really bashing McCain so they could later bash Obama and got the story out there via their surrogates in the NY Times.

"vaguely arguing that it might be a problem" = "bashing"?

Quote:
Premise A is a B
Premise A is also a C
Conclusion Therefore, all Bs are Cs

I have explicitly stated multiple times in this thread that one can blow a racist dog whistle without being a racist.

Quote:
I denote I'm a spectator and you intentionally attach action to that.

Are you not acting? Are you not spreading the lie?

The line between actor and spectator disappears when one involves himself with the action; in this case spreading fear, as you have done and continue to do.

Quote:
So here people just aren't likely to question it or think about it and if they won't do those two things, they won't come to any contrary questions. The question of where you are from or where you are born is studiously avoided for the most part in California because most people came here to get away from somewhere else.

You are reinforcing my argument. You are saying that Californians don't doubt Obama's citizenship because they aren't obsessed with the heritage of dark foreigerns.

"It's not because the South is more racist, it's because other places are less racist... DUH!"
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post #371 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Nope you are completely wrong there Bucko.

The above is a breakdown of the entire sample population (N = 2,400), not just 11% of the entire sample population (N = 2,400)

D'oh![/SIZE]

Note also that the numbers for the south are skewed downward, as the south demographically speaking, has a larger percentage of the population who are black, and assuming almost all black Americans (Yes= 97%, No = 1%, Unsure = 2%, n = 337 (or 14%) of the nationwide sample population (N = 2,400)) would believe Obama was born in the good old USofA, strongly suggests that most whites (perhaps even a very healthy majority) in the south doubt or are unsure that Obama was born in the good old USofA.

Heck, I don't know for sure where I was born (Springfield, VT), and I was there! How can anyone prove beyond a shadow of a doubt where they were born?

Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

trumptman:

People are not talking about this because of a lack of official documentation. Any suspicion of forgery in the short form will be extended to the long form. You do not fight racist conspiracies with government paper. You just ignore it and let the proponents marginalize and embarrass themselves.

Ah well I would agree with you except for the fact that it hasn't gone away after 12 months or so and appears to be creating a distraction when Obama needs focus. Also often political groups don't give you such a clear out. This group says show us one piece of paper and everything we say turns to shit. Finally it is August and the news has nothing to run with or ponder for 24 hours a day. This fills the void.

Quote:
It works fairly well, actually. Look how scared right-wing politicians and figureheads are of the birther nut brigade.

You'll have to help me out because I've seen no scared politicians.

Quote:
"vaguely arguing that it might be a problem" = "bashing"?

I don't need an editor thanks.

Quote:
I have explicitly stated multiple times in this thread that one can blow a racist dog whistle without being a racist.

Thanks for stating nonsense explicitly. Declaring that fallacy is being stated explicitly doesn't change the fallacy anymore than declaring it authoritatively or adding several derogatory adjectives.

Quote:
Are you not acting? Are you not spreading the lie?

Please find another line of bullshit. Does you even read these replies or just type in crap to try to bait people? How is stating that I believe him to have no eligibility issues "spreading the lie?" Are you even trying or just making up crap now? Wondering why the man who bested the Clinton political machine can't shake this isn't spreading anything at all. It is questioning why this appears to be an Achilles heel when it could be so easily dealt with.

Again no one engaging in good politics would allow themselves to be pinned down so easily. The group has said show us a paper and after that we are full of crap. So show the paper and turn them to crap. Make them go away.

Quote:
The line between actor and spectator disappears when one involves himself with the action; in this case spreading fear, as you have done and continue to do.

Please enjoy making up crap. I've not spread anything. You can continue to not quote from me and make up claims because there is nothing you could quote where I question Obama's citizenship, birth status or anything else of the sort.

Quote:
You are reinforcing my argument. You are saying that Californians don't doubt Obama's citizenship because they aren't obsessed with the heritage of dark foreigerns.

Actually I'm saying the dark people are the natives and the white people are the foreigners so the white people don't go around prying into birthright and land. You couldn't have it more backward.

Quote:
"It's not because the South is more racist, it's because other places are less racist... DUH!"

It is because other places are racist in different ways. Again you entirely miss the point. Jesus.

Speaking of points... Andrew Sullivan gets it entirely.


Quote:
But why are we supposed to rely on the testimony of Dr Fukino, whom I believe entirely. It is not my job as a journalist or yours as a citizen to take public officials on trust. They are not to be trusted, whoever they are. It is our job to demand all the evidence we want or need. I know the electronic record is legit. I have no doubt that Obama has every constitutional right to be president. I think the Birthers are nuts. But there is no reason on earth that the original cannot be retrieved and shown. Jon Klein and CNN were wrong, and I retract my apology of yesterday.

If a group says, a piece of paper makes them go away as discredited, just show the piece of paper to make them go away quickly. It isn't spreading anything. It isn't claiming anything. It is just saying show it and let us please move on.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #372 of 594
Made it a PM.
post #373 of 594
trumptman:

A distraction... where? In a narrow subset of the media? On the Internet?
When it starts dominating the headlines at all or most of the major news outlets you can safely say it is causing a "distraction". It's not even close to that point and it never will be.

The State of Hawaii has already produced and verified legal evidence as to the birthplace of Barack Obama. Any rational person ends it there. One does no defeat irrational conspiracies with rational evidence.

Quote:
Actually I'm saying the dark people are the natives and the white people are the foreigners so the white people don't go around prying into birthright and land. You couldn't have it more backward.

Are you saying is that the cultural sociodynamics where you live are different from those in the South?

The vast majority of blacks in the South had an ancestry that was brought here in chains, not one that immigrated towards the hope of a free and prosperous land. You might dismiss this as inconsequential, I would be shocked if you didn't, but a culture's history and trajectory is very important to any cultural minority in any nation.

A Jew in my neighborhood (I'm talking specifically about a good friend three doors down) can know that his family came here to escape fascism and to pursue economic freedom, and in that he can know that he himself has power of movement and hope for opportunity. To him America is a place that gave his father freedom and new opportunities. And this is but one example, a Jew, a race that went from hated by white Southerners to openly respected and celebrated by white Southerners (well, not entirely) in a fairly short amount of time.

Racial matters are different in the South than they are in California or Ohio or Montana. Our legacy is one of slavery and of rebellion against the United States. We are the spiritual home of anti-black racism. And not just the usual tribal racism that all men in all areas are subject to, but a truly ingrained and institutional racism that is part of our speech patterns, our social behaviors, and our physical geography. Welcome to Robert E Lee High School, home of the Rebels.

QUESTION: Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
% "No" or "Not Sure"
Northeast: 7%
South: 53%
Midwest: 10%
West: 13%

There can be no denial that the birther question is one fueled by racism and/or xenophobia.

Quote:
If a group says, a piece of paper makes them go away as discredited, just show the piece of paper to make them go away quickly. It isn't spreading anything. It isn't claiming anything. It is just saying show it and let us please move on.

What is stopping anyone from moving on? Obama must jump because some people say he hasn't met a legal requirement that he actually has met?

It is not his problem that you or Andrew Sullivan or Lou Dobbs are obsessed with silly and inconsequential things.

I did not expect George W Bush to go releasing every NAG record he could lay his hands on because people on the Internet were convinced he skipped out constantly to do cocaine with hookers. I do not expect anything similar from Barack Obama.


Mumbo Jumbo:

I'm good. You can, if you like.
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post #374 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Good point.



Ah well I would agree with you except for the fact that it hasn't gone away after 12 months or so and appears to be creating a distraction when Obama needs focus. Also often political groups don't give you such a clear out. This group says show us one piece of paper and everything we say turns to shit. Finally it is August and the news has nothing to run with or ponder for 24 hours a day. This fills the void.



You'll have to help me out because I've seen no scared politicians.



I don't need an editor thanks.



Thanks for stating nonsense explicitly. Declaring that fallacy is being stated explicitly doesn't change the fallacy anymore than declaring it authoritatively or adding several derogatory adjectives.



Please find another line of bullshit. Does you even read these replies or just type in crap to try to bait people? How is stating that I believe him to have no eligibility issues "spreading the lie?" Are you even trying or just making up crap now? Wondering why the man who bested the Clinton political machine can't shake this isn't spreading anything at all. It is questioning why this appears to be an Achilles heel when it could be so easily dealt with.

Again no one engaging in good politics would allow themselves to be pinned down so easily. The group has said show us a paper and after that we are full of crap. So show the paper and turn them to crap. Make them go away.



Please enjoy making up crap. I've not spread anything. You can continue to not quote from me and make up claims because there is nothing you could quote where I question Obama's citizenship, birth status or anything else of the sort.



Actually I'm saying the dark people are the natives and the white people are the foreigners so the white people don't go around prying into birthright and land. You couldn't have it more backward.



It is because other places are racist in different ways. Again you entirely miss the point. Jesus.

Speaking of points... Andrew Sullivan gets it entirely.




If a group says, a piece of paper makes them go away as discredited, just show the piece of paper to make them go away quickly. It isn't spreading anything. It isn't claiming anything. It is just saying show it and let us please move on.

[CENTER]Nothing will assuage these Birthers.[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Note that the polling data showed that over 70% of whites from the south region stated NO or NOT SURE when asked the following question:[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?[/CENTER]

[CENTER][/CENTER]
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post #375 of 594
How many Americans aren't even aware that Hawaii is a part of the United States? Many people default to Continental US and carelessly exclude Hawaii and Alaska.


What if the poll question asked, "Do you believe that Obama is a natural born US citizen?"
post #376 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

How many Americans aren't even aware that Hawaii is a part of the United States? Many people default to Continental US and carelessly exclude Hawaii and Alaska.


What if the poll question asked, "Do you believe that Obama is a natural born US citizen?"

Classic Non Sequitur.

We have as a basis the polling data from the other three regions of the country. Northeast, Midwest, and West.

Are you suggesting that the people from the South region are both stupid and ignorant?

In statistical parlance, the polling data from the South region are known as an outlier, which, in this case, happens to be all too very real,
given the large sample sizes from all four regions.

One would state this as a statistical test saying it is statistically significant at at least the 1% level (e. g. 99% (or p = 0.99 = three sigma)),
given the MOE of +/- 2% (two sigma, 95% confidence), given the very large difference between the South region and the other three regions.

Quote:
Northeast N = 504 21%
South N = 720 30%
Midwest N = 647 27%
West N = 529 22%

Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6

So, for example, subtract three sigma (say for the subset regional populations sigma = 2%, which it is) from the South region (-6%), add three sigma to the other three regions (+6%), do these new numbers now overlap?

No.

Is the new number from the South region less than the new numbers from the other three regions?

No.

In fact, you need to go to 9-10 sigma before the South region overlaps any of the other three regions.

Note also, that as this type of Birther poll becomes better known by those in the South region, the South region whites will closet their racism once again, so you will not be as likely to see these types of drastically different region numbers ever again.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #377 of 594
Quote:
In fact, you need to go to 9-10 sigma before the South region overlaps any of the other three regions.

We're not that much dumber than everyone else.

If someone is disconnected enough to not know that Hawaii is a state they're not going to be following a chain of logic that goes from the question ("Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?") to an internal answer ("I know he was born in Hawaii.") to an evaluation ("But is Hawaii part of the United States?").

If they are aware enough to know that Obama was born in Hawaii they're aware enough to know that Hawaii is a state.

There's no making excuses for us down here, we're pretty well aware of what we are.
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post #378 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

trumptman:

A distraction... where? In a narrow subset of the media? On the Internet?
When it starts dominating the headlines at all or most of the major news outlets you can safely say it is causing a "distraction". It's not even close to that point and it never will be.

I hope you prove to be right but then I've seen August produce some pretty weird things. Remember all those politicians are going home for vacation. No more health care debate. No more conformation hearings. Nothing to fill that big empty news cycle.

Quote:
The State of Hawaii has already produced and verified legal evidence as to the birthplace of Barack Obama. Any rational person ends it there. One does no defeat irrational conspiracies with rational evidence.

You are right in noting that for a percentage it will never end. However for a large percentage it will. An official declaring they have seen something that exists but that no one else can see it shouldn't be trustworthy regardless of party or rationale. "Because I said so!", doesn't work on most kids above the age of eight so why would it work on adults?

Quote:
Are you saying is that the cultural sociodynamics where you live are different from those in the South?

The vast majority of blacks in the South had an ancestry that was brought here in chains, not one that immigrated towards the hope of a free and prosperous land. You might dismiss this as inconsequential, I would be shocked if you didn't, but a culture's history and trajectory is very important to any cultural minority in any nation.

A Jew in my neighborhood (I'm talking specifically about a good friend three doors down) can know that his family came here to escape fascism and to pursue economic freedom, and in that he can know that he himself has power of movement and hope for opportunity. To him America is a place that gave his father freedom and new opportunities. And this is but one example, a Jew, a race that went from hated by white Southerners to openly respected and celebrated by white Southerners (well, not entirely) in a fairly short amount of time.

Racial matters are different in the South than they are in California or Ohio or Montana. Our legacy is one of slavery and of rebellion against the United States. We are the spiritual home of anti-black racism. And not just the usual tribal racism that all men in all areas are subject to, but a truly ingrained and institutional racism that is part of our speech patterns, our social behaviors, and our physical geography. Welcome to Robert E Lee High School, home of the Rebels.

A deeper study would show that not only is the history different for African-Americans but for the whites as well. They did not immigrate from the same areas as northern whites and did not have same background, education and often land rights.

Here in the U.S. we just lump whites together as one large group but the history of different groups back on "the continent" was very different and shaped where AND WHY they settled here as well.

If for example your history was Scottish and you had an Englishman come and run you off your land periodically claiming title by some temporary government authority when you and your family had been there for centuries, you also might culturally predisposed to viewing such claims with suspicion. Those North-Eastern former "Englishman", they might not see it the same way of course.

Quote:
QUESTION: Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
% "No" or "Not Sure"
Northeast: 7%
South: 53%
Midwest: 10%
West: 13%

There can be no denial that the birther question is one fueled by racism and/or xenophobia.

Correlation isn't causation.

Quote:
What is stopping anyone from moving on? Obama must jump because some people say he hasn't met a legal requirement that he actually has met?

In a completely rational world you are right. Let me say it, you are 100% right but that is why I said from the get go this is about politics and non-rational intangibles related to controlling a popularity contest. By the very nature it is not at all rational. The very requirement for presidentcy itself isn't necessarily rational. This is why I characterized it from the get go of having the feel of trying to score some political points in August via possible embarrassing disclosures rather than as something well... rational. I gave several other examples and noted from the beginning that from a rational point of view, they changed nothing but changed political dynamics which are sadly, not always the same.

Quote:
It is not his problem that you or Andrew Sullivan or Lou Dobbs are obsessed with silly and inconsequential things.

I did not expect George W Bush to go releasing every NAG record he could lay his hands on because people on the Internet were convinced he skipped out constantly to do cocaine with hookers. I do not expect anything similar from Barack Obama.

I'm not obsessed. I didn't start the thread and jumped in late. For me the interest stems from the fact that it seems rather easy to make it go away. As I stated from the beginning a good percentage of the curious but rational people would go away the second the long form was produced and the action of producing it seems rather innocuous.

The fact that Obama seems to relish taking such small gestures and turning them into grand events makes it even more odd. For most politicians revealing the long form would be nothing. For Obama it would be a chance for the media to report on something positive and love on him for another 48-72 hours as they already love to do. How many hours did they already spend reporting on him having a beer, or getting a burger or .... well that is sort of the point. They cover him like a celebrity and with a little flourish he could have a lot of fun with the reveal. It just seems odd that he doesn't.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #379 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

"Because I said so!", doesn't work on most kids above the age of eight so why would it work on adults?

We went to spent 1.3 trillion on a war because someone "said so".

If you believed Bush you can now only be 8 and a half. Wow you are pretty smart for your age.
post #380 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

We went to spent 1.3 trillion on a war because someone "said so".

If you believed Bush you can now only be 8 and a half. Wow you are pretty smart for your age.

Apparently all members of congress who have voted to continue funding the war since then are, too. As well as the other countries around the world who have sent in troops to help.

I'm not defending the war, I'm just saying...

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #381 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Apparently all members of congress who have voted to continue funding the war since then are, too. As well as the other countries around the world who have sent in troops to help.

I'm not defending the war, I'm just saying...

Troops to help?
The Bush appeaser few are all gone by now.
However I agree that the US congress has acted like "Birthers" in this case like complete dimwits.

The existence of Obama's birth certificate CAN be verified and was verified by McCain and Co and the US congress.

Why are the Birthers not sueing the supreme court judge Roberts for swearing in an illegal alien?
post #382 of 594
The Quit Bull with Lipstick quit Tweeting and a new rumor has her quitting her marriage.


---

And: Frank Rich wrote an interesting piece on race in the US (including stuff on the Birther movement):

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/op...rich.html?_r=1

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #383 of 594
Quote:
An official declaring they have seen something that exists but that no one else can see it shouldn't be trustworthy regardless of party or rationale.

Why?

Quote:
A deeper study would show that not only is the history different for African-Americans but for the whites as well. They did not immigrate from the same areas as northern whites and did not have same background, education and often land rights.

Whites were not brought over in slave ships by the millions. What a terrible, terrible attempt at historical revisionism.

Quote:
Correlation isn't causation.

What is the correlation in this scenario?

Quote:
For me the interest stems from the fact that it seems rather easy to make it go away.

Yet you acknowledge that it is "non-rational". Since when does rational evidence defeat the "non-rational"?
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post #384 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Why?

Considering your current political perspective, let's just call it the WMD rationale.

Quote:
Whites were not brought over in slave ships by the millions. What a terrible, terrible attempt at historical revisionism.

It is sad you cannot see the point. The contention is that actions from 400-500 years ago drive the actions of a group. That is true of other groups and not just limited to the one. The reasoning cannot be selective. I've not claimed they would be affect in the same way because the experiences were different, but the reasoning must be applied both ways.

Quote:
What is the correlation in this scenario?

The demographics. The actions aren't racist. You declare them so due to the demographics. Likewise you fail to do the reverse when African-Americans believe at rates well above the average. Again reasoning isn't a one way street. You draw conclusions due to demographics not due to actions.

Quote:
Yet you acknowledge that it is "non-rational". Since when does rational evidence defeat the "non-rational"?

Even if non-rational, it still follows their own reasoning and follows the variables available. They aren't asking God to speak from a mountain top or for a slice of moon cheese. They are asking for a different government form to be shown. The reasoning here is as good as that which justified the stimulus plan which CBO declared would harm and drag on the economy in the future but would (supposedly) slow the pain now. It is political reasoning, not pure logic.

These folks are following political reasoning and that reasoning is not purely rational but within the rules of it, there is an easy out for Obama to follow.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #385 of 594
Palin's Twitter poetry as done once again by the great William Shatner!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpbSwSlP4Yc
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #386 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The demographics. The actions aren't racist. You declare them so due to the demographics. Likewise you fail to do the reverse when African-Americans believe at rates well above the average. Again reasoning isn't a one way street. You draw conclusions due to demographics not due to actions.

Their rates are not well above average when considering the Northeast, the Midwest, and the West regions. Let's call these three regions and the other question they asked controls, as in control groups or control question.

And what are the demographics anyway?

Blacks gave the correct answer much more often from an actual factual perspective.

All the factual evidence says that Barack Obama was born in the USofA. There isn't one iota of factual counter evidence against that very basic fact.

Oh and how does one go about testing for actions over the phone anyway? \

Racism and discrimination are not based on actions alone.

You see things in a certain way, you say things in a certain way, you do things in a certain way. Actively and/or passively.

Racism and discrimination are still alive and well in the good old USofA.
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post #387 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Their rates are not well above average when considering the Northeast, the Midwest, and the West regions. Let's call these three regions and the other question they asked controls, as in control groups or control question.

Let's not call them controls. There is no good reason to do so.

Quote:
And what are the demographics anyway?

The demographics of the South? You live there and do not know?

Quote:
Blacks gave the correct answer much more often from an actual factual perspective.

If skepticism is racism, then lack of skepticism is also racism. If deviation from the mean is racism in one instance, it is in the other as well when the mean is defined as non-racism.

Quote:
All the factual evidence says that Barack Obama was born in the USofA. There isn't one iota of factual counter evidence against that very basic fact.

We are not in disagreement about that point. As I've stated from the beginning I think there is an ulterior motive here. Claiming Palin's last child wasn't hers wasn't a factual claim either. It did force disclosure of other information though in the defense. As I stated at the beginning Kerry and his Chrismas in Cambodia did not change the facts about his service, but did change the narrative related to it.

If the South is more Republican (which we know it is) then they are more willing to express skepticism in order to get embarrassing information revealed is a political motive, not racial. That motive has no racism or anything associated with race at the core of it.

Quote:
Oh and how does one go about testing for actions over the phone anyway? \

You could try asking about them.

Quote:
Racism and discrimination are not based on actions alone.

No but their definitions also do not expand to whatever is politically convenient either. Believing one race superior or inferior has nothing to do with desiring to see a piece of paper.

Quote:
You see things in a certain way, you say things in a certain way, you do things in a certain way. Actively and/or passively.

Racism and discrimination are still alive and well in the good old USofA.

Racism and discrimination being alive and well have nothing to do with desiring proof or more proof or even what might be declared to be definitive proof of citizenship.

If anything this is shooting the messenger. The native born requirement is one placed there by the founders and there is no RATIONAL reason for it, yet it exists. It is arbitrary and thus so will be any reasoning in defending it. Claiming the demands related to it aren't 100% logical is silly because the requirement itself fails that definition.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #388 of 594
Attempting to explain away the wide variance in geographical response as having nothing to do with racism/xenophobia is meritless, which makes sense considering that this entire witch-hunt is meritless.

Quote:
The contention is that actions from 400-500 years ago drive the actions of a group.

This is not the contention. You are attempting to equate the cultural attitudes of descendants of immigrants to the cultural attitude of descendants of slaves, or you are at least attempting to deny that there is a difference. Actions are not in question in this thread; attitudes are.

While your explanation as to why Californians might not be quick to question another's nationality might make sense, it does not explain the regional variance.

QUESTION: Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
% "No" or "Not Sure"
Northeast: 7%
South: 53%
Midwest: 10%
West: 13%

You explained that, in California, everyone is from somewhere else.
What is the explanation for the Midwest and the Northeast?

At some point you should be getting tired of flailing around wildly in your attempt to deny that the "birther" movement is mainly composed of either racists or those who enjoy baiting racists for partisan reasons.

Quote:
Claiming Palin's last child wasn't hers wasn't a factual claim either.

You're right.

Yet you find yourself attempting to give an air of credibility to the "birther" movement.

Quote:
If the South is more Republican (which we know it is) then they are more willing to express skepticism in order to get embarrassing information revealed is a political motive, not racial.

Fucking Christ...

Northeast: 7%
South: 53%
Midwest: 10%
West: 13%

The South is not 10x more Republican than these other areas. And this avoids the simple reality that South is more Republican largely because it is more racist.

I do find it interesting that you will purport that you understand California more than non-Californians ("Perhaps this is why folks like yourself didn't pick up on the Sotomayor dog whistles while so many others did."), but that you also know more about the South than actual Southerners.
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post #389 of 594
The birth certificate as surfaced.

The True Nirth Certifikit At Last

post #390 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Let's not call them controls. There is no good reason to do so.



The demographics of the South? You live there and do not know?



If skepticism is racism, then lack of skepticism is also racism. If deviation from the mean is racism in one instance, it is in the other as well when the mean is defined as non-racism.



We are not in disagreement about that point. As I've stated from the beginning I think there is an ulterior motive here. Claiming Palin's last child wasn't hers wasn't a factual claim either. It did force disclosure of other information though in the defense. As I stated at the beginning Kerry and his Chrismas in Cambodia did not change the facts about his service, but did change the narrative related to it.

If the South is more Republican (which we know it is) then they are more willing to express skepticism in order to get embarrassing information revealed is a political motive, not racial. That motive has no racism or anything associated with race at the core of it.



You could try asking about them.



No but their definitions also do not expand to whatever is politically convenient either. Believing one race superior or inferior has nothing to do with desiring to see a piece of paper.



Racism and discrimination being alive and well have nothing to do with desiring proof or more proof or even what might be declared to be definitive proof of citizenship.

If anything this is shooting the messenger. The native born requirement is one placed there by the founders and there is no RATIONAL reason for it, yet it exists. It is arbitrary and thus so will be any reasoning in defending it. Claiming the demands related to it aren't 100% logical is silly because the requirement itself fails that definition.

... and all we do is run around in circles. Tangential rhetoric and dodgy logic at your end as is clearly present in several of your statements above.

The data are quite clear in that the South region is a real and true outlier, by 12-15 sigma even (Excel spreadsheet).

Saying something is not so is not enough of an explanation for this outlier which is confined to one specific region with real well known past/present histories of racism and discrimination and historical hate groups that still exist in the South region as I write this. Please tell us all the date specific when the South region reduced their level of racism in line with the rest of the USofA.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks. You can stick your head in the sand if you wish, I can't stop that.

To say that there is no race/age/region differences (strongly suggesting racism/xenophobia in a systematic fashion by southern whites) is simply absurd by any stretch of the imagination.

Come up with a much stronger causal relationship to explain a 12-15 sigma outlier, then I would entertain that causal relationship over a known and well established causal relationship, that exists today and throughout the entire history of the South region.
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post #391 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

... and all we do is run around in circles. Tangential rhetoric and dodgy logic at your end as is clearly present in several of your statements above..

The data are quite clear in that the South region is a real and true outlier, by 12-15 sigma even (Excel spreadsheet).

Saying something is not so is not enough of an explanation for this outlier which is confined to one specific region with real well known past/present histories of racism and discrimination and historical hate groups that still exist in the South region as I write this. Please tell us all the date specific when the South region reduced their level of racism in line with the rest of the USofA.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks. You can stick your head in the sand if you wish, I can't stop that.

To say that there is no race/age/region differences (strongly suggesting racism/xenophobia in a systematic fashion by southern whites) is simply absurd by any stretch of the imagination.

Come up with a much stronger causal relationship to explain a 12-15 sigma outlier, then I would entertain that causal relationship over a known and well established causal relationship, that exists today and throughout the entire history of the South region.

Quote:
and all we do is run around in circles

I've found this true with alot of the conservatives. They ask for an explantion of why you believe a certain way. You give it and they pretend you didn't say anything and try to ask the same question ( or make the same statement ) in a different way. It's all part of the smoke and mirrors tactics that they don't understand people out there aren't buying anymore. It's mindset is part of the reason they lost the last election. And still they don't get it!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #392 of 594
Is this really smoking gun of Obama's Kenyan birth?

Quote:
California attorney Orly Taitz, who has filed a number of lawsuits demanding proof of Barack Obama's eligibility to serve as president, has released a copy of what purports to be a Kenyan certification of birth and has filed a new motion in U.S. District Court for its authentication.

There are pictures of the document at the link above.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #393 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Is this really smoking gun of Obama's Kenyan birth?



There are pictures of the document at the link above.

God! Who gives a fuck at this point?

Quote:
No doctor is listed. But the alleged certificate bears the signature of the deputy registrar of Coast Province, Joshua Simon Oduya. It was allegedly issued as a certified copy of the original in February 1964.

The whole thing is just stupid.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #394 of 594
The lead story on CNN.com at the moment is "Michael Jackson's mom seeks control of estate". Go figure.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #395 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The lead story on CNN.com at the moment is "Michael Jackson's mom seeks control of estate". Go figure.

Hey! Jazzy! Pssst! Because any thinking person doesn't take the Birth certificate thing seriously!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #396 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Attempting to explain away the wide variance in geographical response as having nothing to do with racism/xenophobia is meritless, which makes sense considering that this entire witch-hunt is meritless.

I gave a perfectly valid rational using the historical origins of many of those in the south. You dismissed it by claiming I was trying to conflate immigration with slavery, which I wasn't. Having a background where your claim to the land was often subjected to the whims of a higher authority (king versus regional lords) or tenuous claims of others makes for higher skepticism with regard to birthright claims.

Quote:
This is not the contention. You are attempting to equate the cultural attitudes of descendants of immigrants to the cultural attitude of descendants of slaves, or you are at least attempting to deny that there is a difference. Actions are not in question in this thread; attitudes are.

I'm not equating them at all. I'm simply noting that while the one group might have enjoyed a historical advantage here, they learned the rules about that advantage in a country where they were screwed over due to those same rules. To suggest they aren't going to forget the rules is not stretch nor is it an attempt to equate their experiences to slavery. Stop tossing dust into the air.

Quote:
While your explanation as to why Californians might not be quick to question another's nationality might make sense, it does not explain the regional variance.

However the history of those who immigrated to the south does explain it and does make sense.

Quote:
QUESTION: Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
% "No" or "Not Sure"
Northeast: 7%
South: 53%
Midwest: 10%
West: 13%

You explained that, in California, everyone is from somewhere else.
What is the explanation for the Midwest and the Northeast?

The midwest and northeast were not settled by white who were crapped on for a thousand years by the English.

Quote:
At some point you should be getting tired of flailing around wildly in your attempt to deny that the "birther" movement is mainly composed of either racists or those who enjoy baiting racists for partisan reasons.

Actually claiming they are racist and attempting to tar an entire party with that motive is the profoundly partisan reason you keep making logical leaps, tossing up strawmen and engaging in all manner of name calling/ad-homs in this thread.

Not all whites from Europe were the same. We know even in this day and age there were segments that were more prone to drinking, less prone to employment or education, or well even cleanliness with regard to keeping animals apart from living quarters. The differences in these values still show up today. When the South is more religious but also more promiscuous, we don't go claiming it is because they are racist. There is a reason we have phrases in our lexicon like Pennsylvania Dutch and not Mississippi Dutch. It is because different groups of white settled in different parts of the country and brought their culture with them.

Dozens of books and articles that look into factors that created the civil war noted that the North with industrialization and also with the building of more schools, etc. were out-competing and bringing and end to the very unproductive South and were doing so with those drunk Irish who were no better in terms of cultural values than the Scotts and other associated groups who settled in the South.

Quote:
You're right.

Yet you find yourself attempting to give an air of credibility to the "birther" movement.

More dust. They don't have to be credible to not be a racist. This has more to do with the ad-hom/intent game the left always plays. It cannot be a disagreement, it has to be a darker motive driven by hate. Thus you can't disagree on health care, you have to hate old people. You can't disagree on taxes, you have to be a rich, greedy bastard.

On the issue of the birth certificate, you can't just be wrong, you have to be a racist. The two are not linked in any fashion. The attempt to link them is pure partisan politics at play and it is you who are attempting to give an air of stigma to anyone who even discusses the topic.

Quote:
Fucking Christ...

Northeast: 7%
South: 53%
Midwest: 10%
West: 13%

The South is not 10x more Republican than these other areas. And this avoids the simple reality that South is more Republican largely because it is more racist.

I do find it interesting that you will purport that you understand California more than non-Californians ("Perhaps this is why folks like yourself didn't pick up on the Sotomayor dog whistles while so many others did."), but that you also know more about the South than actual Southerners.

You fail to see the sarcasm of me reflecting back your own bad reasoning at you. You are right that the South isn't ten times more Republican than the other areas, but those numbers also reflect no and not sure. Lot of folks are not engaged or don't care. That doesn't make them racist anymore than being skeptical doesn't make them racist. The thing that makes someone racist is believing one group superior or inferior to another. Questioning about a birth certificate has nothing to do with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

... and all we do is run around in circles. Tangential rhetoric and dodgy logic at your end as is clearly present in several of your statements above.

The data are quite clear in that the South region is a real and true outlier, by 12-15 sigma even (Excel spreadsheet).

If you want to ad-hom via complaining, you have the choice not to respond nor even to read. No one is forcing your hands to the keyboard so shut up.

Yet you take their results here with one sample, without having the full methodology available, and also when noting they clearly under sample Republicans which can magnify results within that sample.

Quote:
Saying something is not so is not enough of an explanation for this outlier which is confined to one specific region with real well known past/present histories of racism and discrimination and historical hate groups that still exist in the South region as I write this. Please tell us all the date specific when the South region reduced their level of racism in line with the rest of the USofA.

Correlation isn't causation. Claiming a non-racial action is racist simply due to history is terrible reasoning. Also the rest of the country still has far fewer black people living in it. Is there less racism there or fewer black people there to report on and receive it? The South has 55% of the black population. The West has 7% of the black population. Given the same amount of racism there would be 700% more instances of racism in the South due to shear numbers. That wouldn't make the West any less racist as an example, it would mean there were simply fewer blacks to act racist towards or to have interactions with that might lead to racist outcomes.

Quote:
You can't teach an old dog new tricks. You can stick your head in the sand if you wish, I can't stop that.

Here is a new trick for you. Stop replying to stuff while bitching about the fact that you engage it.

Quote:
To say that there is no race/age/region differences (strongly suggesting racism/xenophobia in a systematic fashion by southern whites) is simply absurd by any stretch of the imagination.

We've had this discussion before. When the only model of prejudice one is willing to apply is that which implicates Southern Whites, they are going to look the worst in that measurement. When we call whites men wearing white sheets shooting black men racism, but won't call Hispanic gang members trying to clear the neighborhood of black men the same thing, we are automatically going to have a skewed result. If we have all the Filipinos fighting with all the Cambodians in a neighborhood, that is racism, and your failure to learn that new trick due to old dog tendencies which happen to lie close to your political affiliation won't change that fact either.

Quote:
Come up with a much stronger causal relationship to explain a 12-15 sigma outlier, then I would entertain that causal relationship over a known and well established causal relationship, that exists today and throughout the entire history of the South region.

I already did and posted it. Get a new trick beyond dismissal before demanding more typing to improve your understanding.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #397 of 594
A good read!


Quote:
Born in the U.S.A.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/154599/page/3



Quote:
Of course, it's distantly possible that Obama's grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat. The evidence is clear: Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.


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post #398 of 594
You still carry on with the tangential rhetoric and dodgy logic. Go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Yet you take their results here with one sample, without having the full methodology available, and also when noting they clearly under sample Republicans which can magnify results within that sample.

You really don't understand what you are saying as the above statement clearly shows.

You guessed the wrong directional effect from a statistical standpoint.

You take out the black population because it's disproportionately high in the South region, once that is done the South region outlier can only increase in difference from the other three regions. It is in fact an even greater outlier.

First you did not umderstand the study as shown by your erroneous 11% statement.

Now you don't even understand in which direction the outlier would take for an overrepresentation of the results for a specific demographic. Note that over 70% of southern whites said NO or NOT SURE versus 53% for the entire South region sample.

That the above is true there can be no doubt, you've shown your hand at statistical analyses; 2-3-4-5-7 (of two or more suits)

BTW, I took two graduate level courses in statistics as an undergrad and aced both, I was completely dumbfounded at how effin' easy the graduate level courses for those majoring in statistics were.

This is old news and I'll stop right here with your two glaring misunderstandings of the basic statistics.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #399 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

You still carry on with the tangential rhetoric and dodgy logic. Go figure.

Ad-hom noted and reported.

Quote:
You really don't understand what you are saying as the above statement clearly shows.

I noted this for the entire survey, not just the South. All the reasoning that follows after this is wrong because you presume I was only speaking about Republicans in the South being underrepresented when I was speaking about the entire survey. The Republicans were only 21% of the survey when they clearly are larger than that nationally.

Quote:
You guessed the wrong directional effect from a statistical standpoint.

The smaller the sample, the larger the margin of error. You, I, Kos and everyone else understands this. They even note within their own survey.

The margin for error is higher for any demographic subgroup, such as gender, race, or region.

If you undersample that subgroup because your politics leads you to a conclusion that they are a smaller number than exists in reality, then the margin of error is going to be even larger as well.

Quote:
You take out the black population because it's disproportionately high in the South region, once that is done the South region outlier can only increase in difference from the other three regions. It is in fact an even greater outlier.

I'll be happy to see you quote where I related this to the survey. I related it to reported instances of racism. The survey wasn't even mentioned in this context.

Quote:
First you did not umderstand the study as shown by your erroneous 11% statement.

I did a quick read and the poor wording within the survey presentation lead me to the mistake. You pointed it out and I gladly and quickly noted it.

This is the wording on DailyKos....

So 11 percent of Americans are Obama-hating conspiracy theorists. How do they break down?

If you think such wording makes it hard to mistake that they are breaking down the 11 percent instead of the entire sample, then that is your prerogative. The fact that we even entertain the link when you simply would discredit the source already is several steps above what you would demand of yourself. If this survey came from Powerline, National Review or Heritage.org, you wouldn't even look at it. So you'll have to pardon me if when looking at your partisan source with their very bad presentation (Obama-hating conspiracy theorists) I slipped on their wording. Excuse me.

Quote:
Now you don't even understand in which direction the outlier would take for an overrepresentation of the results for a specific demographic. Note that over 70% of southern whites said NO or NOT SURE versus 53% for the entire South region sample.

That the above is true there can be no doubt, you've shown your hand at statistical analyses; 2-3-4-5-7

BTW, I took two graduate level courses in statistics as an undergrad and aced both, I was completely dumbfounded at how effin' easy the graduate level courses for those majoring in statistics were.

This is old news and I'll stop right here with your two glaring misunderstandings of the basic statistics.

Perhaps the next course you take could note that when I'm discussing racism within a region and the history of it, that it in no form or fashion relates to the survey. It was a discussion on a side-question about historical racism within the South versus the rest of the country. It was in no form connected to the survey nor were numbers from the survey being used to draw any conclusions within that discussion. Correlation is not causation should have been one of the first things they taught you in those two classes and from that you should be able to know that a history of racism still doesn't make a non-racist action into racism. The logical leap you demand there still won't be justified by any additional names you call me or anything else you care to insinuate about me either.

Take a million courses on statistics. Correlation does not imply causation will still be wrong and will still be a logical fallacy. Using an appeal to authority, another logical fallacy, to support the first will not fix either one of them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #400 of 594
HuffPost blogger, college prof: Release birth certificate

Quote:
"I believe that the president should end the speculation by being transparent about all aspects of his background," Swain said. "In fact, it can be argued that the president belongs to the people and to scholars, biographers and others who are entitled to know every aspect of his past. Only great men can ascend to this height, and their lives should be examined and studied for the lessons they offer."

What a right-wing racist bigot sexist homophobe tinfoil-hat-wearing idiot she is.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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