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Apple may extend antiglare display option to more Macs - Page 4

post #121 of 150
A long time ago, non-reflective CRT flat-screens were in use by Apple. Sony Trinitron flat screens had them. But it was the glass not the actual screens themselves that had the coating. Because of that there was no double-reflections. The last CRT screens were the eMac. Strange how short peoples memories are nowadays. I'm looking at my Cube that came with a 17" CRT non-reflective glass screen. It's not as bright as my iMac but I can hardly see myself in it when it's off.
I'll be honest, matte is rubbish compared to non-reflective glass. My specks have a non-reflective coating on them and if you carefully look at the very top of your screens, you'll notice a very small lens there: that's a camera. Why does it have a blue or green or pink appearance to it? That is due to the non-reflective coating that was applied to it.
You can rave on all you want about matte screens but if you don't ask the right question you won't get the right answer. For a better understanding:
http://www.screentekinc.com/pixelbright-lcds.shtml
... and a low-priced solution...
http://www.radtech.us/Products/ClearCal-Displays.aspx
post #122 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

So Apple can use anti-reflective glass, it's not cost prohibitive. They decided to use cheap reflective glass instead.

No, high-gloss (their current displays) simply looked better to them.
post #123 of 150
Has anyone compared apparent text sharpness between the anti-glare (or matte?) screen and the glossy screen? I don't yet own a MBP but am thinking of getting one for the purpose of coding so text clarity is critical.
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post #124 of 150
For coding, the matte is a lot easier on your eyes. That's what I do all day every day, 8-12 hours a day. I went bonkers with the glossy 24" lcd. All I can tell you the glossy did for me is make colors look deeper. Not interested in that. For all I care it can be greyscale.

 

 

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post #125 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

For all I care it can be greyscale.

I'd hate to code without syntax highlighting
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post #126 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I'd hate to code without syntax highlighting

Underlines are awesome... and the new xcode on Snow Leopard with the errors on the right side... are enough for me.

LOL @ grayscale

 

 

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post #127 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Dude, if you've got that much, just get a Mac Pro and a third-party screen.

I don't need that much power etc.

And by the time I take advantage of the pro's upgradeability,
the next Pro will make it not worth the money to upgrade.

I loooooooooove the iMac style and design etc.

I am an iMac dog.

I WANT MATTE 24" iMac . THAT IS ALL .
---gooddog

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post #128 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

I don't need that much power etc.

And by the time I take advantage of the pro's upgradeability,
the next Pro will make it not worth the money to upgrade.

I loooooooooove the iMac style and design etc.

I am an iMac dog.

I WANT MATTE 24" iMac . THAT IS ALL .

OK. Here's another idea:

Dude! If you've got that much money, get a 24" iMac and then get the glass replaced with a bit of custom-cut museum glass.
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post #129 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post

A long time ago, non-reflective CRT flat-screens were in use by Apple. Sony Trinitron flat screens had them. But it was the glass not the actual screens themselves that had the coating. Because of that there was no double-reflections. The last CRT screens were the eMac. Strange how short peoples memories are nowadays. I'm looking at my Cube that came with a 17" CRT non-reflective glass screen. It's not as bright as my iMac but I can hardly see myself in it when it's off.
I'll be honest, matte is rubbish compared to non-reflective glass. My specks have a non-reflective coating on them and if you carefully look at the very top of your screens, you'll notice a very small lens there: that's a camera. Why does it have a blue or green or pink appearance to it? That is due to the non-reflective coating that was applied to it.
You can rave on all you want about matte screens but if you don't ask the right question you won't get the right answer. For a better understanding:
http://www.screentekinc.com/pixelbright-lcds.shtml
... and a low-priced solution...
http://www.radtech.us/Products/ClearCal-Displays.aspx

**********

So I should rant n' rabies about a 24" iMac with non-reflective glass (instead of "matte" ) ?

Thanx ! Didn't know that.
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post #130 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

OK. Here's another idea:

Dude! If you've got that much money, get a 24" iMac and then get the glass replaced with a bit of custom-cut museum glass.

********************************

Has anyone done that with the same quality as Apple would provide ?

A few months ago, I took a small piece of thin glass used , by The Frame Store in LA, to mount their customer's photos. I placed it on the screen of a glossy Macbook and it looked OK but there was a bit of sparkle in the image.

I suspect it was due to the fact that both sides of the glass was lightly frosted and the small pits on the side up against the screen were slightly magnified by the pits on the side of the glass nearest my eyes. I do not have glass frosted on only one side.

Is this what you call "museum glass" ?

****************

Still, I think that the best approach is to keep bitching endlessly until Apple yanks it's head out of
it's MacButt and starts acting like the company it once was.
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post #131 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattido View Post

AG is the only way to go if you have lots of sunlight around. The glossy is nice only if you don't.

**********

This is a general response --- not all of it necessarily addressed to you.

I don't understand why the specular reflection problem with the glossy screens ( I call it by it's proper name : "Rear View Screen STUPIDITY" ) is pooh-pooh 'd so often with remarks about "sunlight", "placement in the home environment", "never had a problem", etc.

Those are all irrelevant responses.

OF COURSE a person who views mostly bright-colored screens with solid color fields, while pounding code or emailing or web surfing, will not have a problem. The brightness of the scene or background drowns out the specular reflections from the screen.

BUT, try viewing Apocalypse Now on a 24" iMac glossy and see if you like your entire room and face showing up on the screen next to Brando's face in the cave scene.

OF COURSE dimming the lights in your room will help a little.
But in the case above, your dim room will not matter when the light from the screen itself lights up your face and puts it right in the middle of the film director's scene --- NOT what the director intended !!! .... RESPECT THE ARTIST.

OF COURSE a person who goes outdoors with a matte screen will have a problem.
Those of us who have been complaining, for YEARS now, are NOT referring to outdoor use of a 24" iMac.

OF COURSE tilting the screen around will move the REAR VIEW out of the way:

How far do you have to tilt ? I don't want to view a cosine fraction of an expensive, top-of-the-line 24" iMac just because some pig-headed jackass at Apple decides to ignore us --- their loyal customers.

OF COURSE re-modeling the room to place light fixtures, lamps, reflective surfaces, windows, mirrors, lamps, the sun in the sky and the moon up above will help a little :

I don't want to re-build my room, don a ninja costume, put on black face camouflage, rig up some black-out curtains, and wear black dental guards as well as special glasses whenever I choose to power up my desktop computer.

OF COURSE THE iPhone has a very usable glossy screen.

It is tiny and so will not intercept and reflect much of a REAR VIEW.
It can't light up my face like a 24" iMac screen can.
DON'T bring this up again ! ESPECIALLY IF YOU WORK AT THE LOCAL APPLE STORE : it is a false comparison.

OF COURSE we have tried all of these remedies and found them to be full of crap.

WHAT DID YOU THINK ?
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post #132 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

********************************

I suspect it was due to the fact that both sides of the glass was lightly frosted and the small pits on the side up against the screen were slightly magnified by the pits on the side of the glass nearest my eyes. I do not have glass frosted on only one side.

Is this what you call "museum glass" ?

****************

Still, I think that the best approach is to keep bitching endlessly until Apple yanks it's head out of
it's MacButt and starts acting like the company it once was.

Nope. This is museum glass:
http://www.tru-vue.com/
It may be rather expensive but it's not bad-at-all (In-fact, it's probably the best solution but not the only solution). I have the feeling that the non-reflective glass issue is one of those taboo (?) that should not be breathed in the halls of Cupertino - if you value your life. Let the struggling masses feed on the 'matte' thing until they're blue in the face... or a pending lawsuit.
Still, matte is rubbish when there is far better technology that can be and has been utilized.
post #133 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post

Nope. This is museum glass:
http://www.tru-vue.com/
It may be rather expensive but it's not bad-at-all (In-fact, it's probably the best solution but not the only solution). I have the feeling that the non-reflective glass issue is one of those taboo (?) that should not be breathed in the halls of Cupertino - if you value your life. Let the struggling masses feed on the 'matte' thing until they're blue in the face... or a pending lawsuit.
Still, matte is rubbish when there is far better technology that can be and has been utilized.

*********

I sent them an email asking for a referral to get availability and price and turn around time.

When I get something, I will post.

If Apple puts out what I want after I spend $800 on a custom-cut piece of glass, I will declare war.
I will unleash an unpleasantness that may provoke an awkward moment .
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post #134 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

*********

I sent them an email asking for a referral to get availability and price and turn around time.

When I get something, I will post.

I came across some more info and this place keeps popping up:
http://www.opticalcoatings.com/index.html
The one bad thing is the site is rather old - by interweb standards. You can check them out too. They have heaps of links.
post #135 of 150
So does anyone have a guess or clue when the matte display will be an option? Will we have to wait till the next major MBP update? (Anxiously waiting to get a new laptop)
post #136 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

I am willing to bet most of the "Glossy Haters" don't even own a Mac with a glossy screen. So they are giving an opinion with no experience. Teckstud, who complains constantly about the iPhone, yet finally admits that he has never owned one. Do you own a Mac with a glossy screen, or are you just complaining with no actual evidence?

I just got the iMac 24" with the gorgeous glossy screen. I still have my iMac G5 on the same desk. So I have a side by side comparison of the glossy screen and the matte screen. Hands down, the glossy screen blows away the matte!

1) Clarity. The glossy screen is razor sharp because the LCD is behind a piece of glass, not a textured matte screen. Text on the screen is so much clearer on the glossy screen. The iMac G5 always had a grainy look because of the matte finish (especially on a white background). This degrades the sharpness of the text. I have far less eyestrain using the iMac 24" than I do with the iMac G5. Smaller fonts are now easier to read. For comparison sake, the acrylic 20" Cinema Display had a better matte screen than the iMac G5. It still had the grainy look, but not nearly as apparent on the iMac G5. The iMac G5 had a brighter screen than the Cinema Display.

2) Brightness. The iMac 24" glossy display is super-bright, really making whites look white. The iMac G5, which is only three years old, looks dull in comparison. The brighter screen is much easier to look at. The brightness is also more uniform across the screen.

3) Color clarity. Colors are far more vivid and the blacks are true deep blacks. Photos and video really jump out of the screen. The matte, again, produces a dull image especially with blacks, that don't really look black through the matte screen.

4) Reflection. Minimal. I don't have any glare issues at all. The iMac sits in front of the window on the side wall. I don't have any glare at all. A family member has the same 24" iMac in a room with a large sliding glass door behind him. When the Mac is on, there is no glare from the slider.

5) Glare from lights. I have a ceiling fan with attached light that does not produce any glare. I have a desk lamp with the swing arm and a tiny halogen bulb next to the iMac. At night, I turn off the room light and turn on the desk light. The lamp opening is a two inch diameter circle. Looks like the top of a mushroom on an adjustable arm. The only thing reflected on the screen is the sliver of light in the upper right corner of the screen. Since the iMac has a glass screen, you only see the small sliver of light in that corner. The matte screen, on the other hand, would diffuse the light across the entire upper quadrant washing out the entire corner with a haze of light.

Now what is misleading in the article is that BULLSHIT image of the two MacBook Pros side by side. The only true way to compare the two is to have the EXACT same image on both screens. They also turned the brightness WAY down on the glossy screen to intentionally show a reflection as if the Mac was off. If they had the same image displayed, and the brightness at the normal level, you would not see the reflection of the keyboard. I don't see myself in the glossy screen anymore than I did on a matte screen.

If they want to have a build-to-order option for Matte, that is fine, but don't intentionally mislead readers with a BULLSHIT image. You also can't look at a Mac in a store and think that is how it will look in your home. Your home doesn't have hundreds of lights shining everywhere. With MacBooks, the screen is adjustable and your body can move around. You couldn't see a matte screen outside in sunlight either! Just like buying a TV. Seeing a TV in a store is not how it will look at home. Once you make proper adjustments to a TV, it looks far better than when you saw it in a store.

The glossy screen wins hands down. It is a gorgeous screen to look at. Photo pros used CRT monitors in the past, so the glossy screen is no different. In fact, my wedding photographer (who has won numerous technical Emmys in TV production work, so he is considered an expert in the field) continues to use CRT monitors because matte LCD's degrade the look of photos. He said you don't get a true representation of a photo image through a matte screen. My wedding videographer uses Final Cut Pro with two 20" Aluminum Cinema Matte displays. His Mac is also connected to a Sony Professional CRT monitor which he uses for proper color and image correction of the video because the matte displays cannot display an accurate image.

So once you get a Mac with a glossy screen at home, in your own environment, you won't go back to Matte. I also compared my PowerBook G4 with the MacBook Air side-by-side and the glossy screen on the Air blew away the matte screen on the G4.

***********************

I guess you are right.

The 24" iMac glossy I saw and found un-usable (USELESS) was in my neighbor's home.

I did not own the home, so I was unable to see how wonderful the REAR VIEW iMac really is.

I did not notice the black-out curtains, the black camouflage paint on my neighbor's face, the black wax on his teeth (lest a comedy YouTube were to make him crack a smile), the slit sunglasses he bought from an old Ennuit seal hunter, the black ninja suit, etc. that he used to appoint his computer bunker.

PULL YOUR HEAD OUT BEFORE YOU SUFFOCATE !

STOP WITH THE DUMB-ASS ARGUMENTS ALREADY.

IT'S NO USE.

I do own an iPhone and it could be improved by a non-reflective screen.

But, the iPhone is way too small to have as much of a problem as the 24" iMac:
1. It intercepts a far smaller solid angle of the room's rays THAN AN IMAC DOES.
2. It does not self-illuminate the user's face nearly as much as the iMac.

All I need with the iPhone is a ZAGG Invisible Shield screen protector, to cut the reflections virtually completely and to make the screen virtually finger print proof, and virtually scratch proof.

Applying this film perfectly is difficult on an iPhone.
It would be virtually impossible on a 24" iMac.

WE NEED MUSEUM GLASS OR BETTER ON A 24" iMac --- WHETHER YOU TROLL AGAINST IT OR NOT.

THAT IS ALL.
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post #137 of 150
OK, so I got my hands on the new 15-inch MacBook Pro. I wanted to compare it side-by-side with my 17-inch that I spent extra money on for the matte option.

I took these comparison photos of them sitting on my dining room table. The sun was starting to set when I snapped them, so the rays are beaming through my windows. The screens are not facing the windows.







As you can see, the ambient light in the room is reflecting off the glass a little bit here, giving the appearance of haze on the 15-inch. But this seems only apparent in the photographs because it's not at all apparent in person. The blacks do look deeper, like Phil Schiller says.



From an off angle, it's a different story. Reflections are very apparent. But who looks at their screen off angle like this? I guess it's not good for the friend next to you looking on. Both displays were at maximum brightness levels.



The closer you are, the less reflective the glass appears to be.

Now, these photos were taken in the morning in my kitchen. Windows are right behind me.



Same kitchen, matte screened 17-inch unibody:



There is some reflection off the 17-inch screen but it's much more diffused.

These photos were taken outside in full sun. As you can see, the glossy screen is no match for daylight.







In the final analysis, the glassy screen can be impressive. I didn't mind it as much as I thought I would! But I can't imagine how Apple could go this long without offering the smaller MacBook Pro models at least the same option of having a matte finish as they are giving the 17-inch buyers. Apple must have the matte option on the other models in the works.
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post #138 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

OK, so I got my hands on the new 15-inch MacBook Pro. I wanted to compare it side-by-side with my 17-inch that I spent extra money on for the matte option.

Thank you for sharing your real world tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

As you can see, the ambient light in the room is reflecting off the glass a little bit here, giving the appearance of haze on the 15-inch. But this seems only apparent in the photographs because it's not at all apparent in person. The blacks do look deeper, like Phil Schiller says.

That's the problem right there. Although the colors can come through better on glossy, the reflected haze in any screen due to the ambient light actually makes the screen look washed out and worse for color accuracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

These photos were taken outside in full sun. As you can see, the glossy screen is no match for daylight.

It's interesting because when this issue was discussed a while ago, one of the strongest reasons given why glossy was better was outdoor conditions. I've personally never seen glossy better outdoors yet some people even said matte was unusable outdoors when it's clearly much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

I can't imagine how Apple could go this long without offering the smaller MacBook Pro models at least the same option of having a matte finish as they are giving the 17-inch buyers. Apple must have the matte option on the other models in the works.

We can only hope. When you see them side by side, the anti-glare models are so much better. So much in fact that I think they ought to scrap the untreated glossy line for the anti-glare models, except just put the black bezel back on.

The glass does have advantages like being easy to clean and harder to scratch but realistically, if you take care of your machine, there shouldn't be any problems.
post #139 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

OK, so I got my hands on the new 15-inch MacBook Pro. I wanted to compare it side-by-side with my 17-inch that I spent extra money on for the matte option.

I took these comparison photos of them sitting on my dining room table. The sun was starting to set when I snapped them, so the rays are beaming through my windows. The screens are not facing the windows.

***snip***

When you post pictures online, please make them a somewhat manageable size first. It's awkward even for a 24" screen.

And please don't repost the entire thing when a link would do.
post #140 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

OK, so I got my hands on the new 15-inch MacBook Pro. I wanted to compare it side-by-side with my 17-inch that I spent extra money on for the matte option.

Those were great pictures, and I thought the size was fine even on this 15" screen.

And thanks to glassy, we now know what you look like.
post #141 of 150
It is, from personal experience, virtually impossible for me to work accurately with color on the new glossy screens. I remember being among those who were dissapointed with the new iMac and MacBook glossy-only displays, and took a glossy 13" MacBook back to the Apple store twice; finally realizing that the mirrored, washed out display was hopeless. Because of the new matte option, I'm looking to purchase an anti-glare 15" MBP. I find the computer itself to look even better with the matte option built in than that of the standard gloss.
post #142 of 150
I had a chance to visit my local Apple store on Monday and I also will have to put in a vote for antiglare/matte. While sunlight will not be a huge issue for me, color accuracy has and always will as a gamer (not necessarily a PC gamer).

Adding the option to the new iMacs and MacBook Pro 13-inch would be cool but custom alternatives are nice as well.

Edit: WOW! At those pictures. Magnificent!
post #143 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

I am willing to bet most of the "Glossy Haters" don't even own a Mac with a glossy screen. So they are giving an opinion with no experience. Teckstud, who complains constantly about the iPhone, yet finally admits that he has never owned one. Do you own a Mac with a glossy screen, or are you just complaining with no actual evidence?

I just got the iMac 24" with the gorgeous glossy screen. I still have my iMac G5 on the same desk. So I have a side by side comparison of the glossy screen and the matte screen. Hands down, the glossy screen blows away the matte!

2) Brightness. The iMac 24" glossy display is super-bright, really making whites look white. The iMac G5, which is only three years old, looks dull in comparison. The brighter screen is much easier to look at. The brightness is also more uniform across the screen.

3) Color clarity. Colors are far more vivid and the blacks are true deep blacks. Photos and video really jump out of the screen. The matte, again, produces a dull image especially with blacks, that don't really look black through the matte screen.

The glossy screen wins hands down. It is a gorgeous screen to look at. Photo pros used CRT monitors in the past, so the glossy screen is no different.So once you get a Mac with a glossy screen at home, in your own environment, you won't go back to Matte. I also compared my PowerBook G4 with the MacBook Air side-by-side and the glossy screen on the Air blew away the matte screen on the G4.

Needless to say, the use and environment of a computer user varies from person to person. Some people prefer to use a computer for general computing/entertainment, while some have extremely specific professional needs. Every time I've used a "glassy" screen on any of the new Unibody MacBook Pro computers, it has totally dissapointed me in terms of color accuracy and viewing angle. To a lesser extent, the reflection associated with the display is also cause for eye strain in my case. I don't know why someone who hasn't used a glossy screen would comment on its negative aspects without having experienced one themselves as you mentioned. I previously posted having purchased a 13" MacBook w/ a "glassy" screen and took it back because of the display coating, as dissapointing as not being able to keep it was.

That aside, the coating on any CRT monitor that I've ever seen (I'm also looking at a Mitsubishi Diamond Plus pro monitor right now on the table in front of me) does not give off mirror-like reflectivity, and is incredibly different than the new Apple gloss. I think plenty of people would agree. I see no refletivity whatsoever when the monitors are on, and a very minimal suggestion of reflection when the monitors are off. I used them for years before LCD screens became standard. It's a totally different situation.
post #144 of 150
I did actually purchase the 15" matte MBP and couldn't be happier with the display. Very nice, really! Perfect for working and also for movies and such..
I'm still getting used to the big size of this (coming from a 12" Powerbook), but the screen is really perfect. Just get one, you won't regret it.
post #145 of 150
Since I took those pictures a month ago, my work took delivery of a 15-inch matte version. Its screen is just as impressive as the 17 incher, but...I think one area that makes the 17-inch superior is the much higher resolution screen. It's too bad a 1680x1050 display is not offered on the 15-inch model at a minimum. Work has also taken delivery of a 17-inch in glass. This probably looks by far the best of all the glass screen models, again, in part, due to its high resolution. I have used both and for me, at least, each has their strengths and weaknesses, with the definite edge going to matte.
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post #146 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

Since I took those pictures a month ago, my work took delivery of a 15-inch matte version. Its screen is just as impressive as the 17 incher, but...I think one area that makes the 17-inch superior is the much higher resolution screen. It's too bad a 1680x1050 display is not offered on the 15-inch model at a minimum. Work has also taken delivery of a 17-inch in glass. This probably looks by far the best of all the glass screen models, again, in part, due to its high resolution. I have used both and for me, at least, each has their strengths and weaknesses, with the definite edge going to matte.

Yeah. When I eventually replace this machine, I'm likely going to get another 15" mbp. Two things about the current 15" model bug me though- the first being the lack of a higher resolution display (1680x1050 would do nicely as an optional upgrade), and the second being the thick bezel around the screen. I'm working of a Pre-unibody 15" MBP here and the bezel around the screen is really thin, at least compared to the unibody models. If it's within your means, Just by looking at the 15" unibody side-by-side with an older aluminum 15" MBP, what's your opinion of the thicker bezel? Does it detract from the appearance of the machine?

(Note, I haven't had an opportunity to see one of these things in person)
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post #147 of 150
Hi Mr.K,
I'm not heading into the office today. Otherwise I'd take side-by-side comparison shots. The matte version with the silver border on the 15-inch is not that bad. But yes, it is thicker than the previous 15-inch.
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post #148 of 150
Great, thanks. I'd appreciate any side-by-side comparison shots.
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post #149 of 150
Grr... just from looking at all the different topics, it is getting to be such a tough decision to choose between glossy and matte. In the end, I'll probably go with matte though I keep being swayed.
post #150 of 150
Apple needs to hurry and release it so I can stop checking AI every ten minutes wondering when it will be revealed! Hopefully it will ship with an an anti-glare option.

Maybe it will be more attractive than the current iMac. This whole two-tone business (black glassy screen area, matte black rear, black glossy Apple logo, aluminum enclosure) is not so Apple-like. Previous machines with either entirely polycarbonate enclosures or entirely aluminum enclosures are far more aesthetically pleasing. Obviously the polycarbonate is less environmentally, but it's the look I'm talking about here.
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