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iTunes 8.2.1 now available for download - Page 3

post #81 of 219
So now I understand what the "Pre" monicker really means.

"Pre" iTunes!
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post #82 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I think the whole thing is a PR war both on the part of Palm and Apple and Palm may have just scored a direct hit.

This kind of stuff points directly to the flaw in Apple's tendency to be secretive. While it's generally a brilliant strategy not to talk about what they are doing and while it's served them very well in the past, now that they have such a high public profile and are in the news all the time, getting new customers etc., I think it works against them in many ways.

For new products its still a great strategy, but for software less so in that smaller developers sometimes get blindsided. Now that Apple is trying to get some of the bigger developers and partners on board the Apple express there is a danger of totally screwing over some of those same partners because they refuse to get into describing a road map in even the most general of terms.

In this specific case, involved as it is with issues of monopoly and market dominance it's just foolish to remain silent IMO. A simple announcement that they are specifically doing this thing for a specific reason, and perhaps even announcing the intention to allow *licensed* syncing of other devices in the future, or even pointing out that iTunes is all XML and can be easily linked to would go a long way. In cases like this the silent secret treatment gives them no upside at all and yet delivers veritable mountains of bad press.

Perhaps Rubenstein was counting on this so he could paint Apple as Goliath and Palm as David with the sling. Knowing Apple and Steve Jobs as he does he likely knew this would happen and will milk it for all the PR he can. (that's assuming that they do have an alternative sync program in the wings).

I usually agree, but I think you've got this one backwards. You could substitute "Palm" for "Apple" in most of your argument and you will have a much better one.

I think Palm blew it here. They've been the secretive ones here. They could have announced that Palm would be compatible from way back, but they didn't. It only became known much later. They could have approached Apple with the idea, but they didn't. We can guess why.

I can't worry about all small developers. There will always be some that get wiped. That's tough.

Users demand more features from the OS developers, and they comply. If that means stepping some small developers along the way. It's too bad, but can't always be helped. Apple has been pretty good about that over the years, except for a few instances where some people, I think mistakenly, blamed them for walking on a couple.

But this is different. I'm not even sure what the law is here. While you're allowed to make your device or software work with other devices, I'm not sure how that works with a situation such as this. I don't think that anyone else here does either.

I don't think this issue has ever come up before. Someone said that BB's were able to sync, but I believe that's wrong.
post #83 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Well put. All they need is a simple media player with send and fetch functionality. There are plenty of itunes alternatives. It amazes me people rely so much on something that (to me at least) is so stupid.

Feel free to remain amazed, but there is no way in hell that Palm will write an iTunes replacement. They'll write a program that can parse iTunes XML files so that the Pre can talk to the iTunes data base, which is what they should have done in the first place.

There still seems to be some confusion with what is happening: as has been pointed out, the problem wasn't syncing with iTunes per se, it was how Palm went about it-- hacking the USB device identifier/driver to make the Pre present itself as an iPod to the host computer. That's what doesn't work anymore.

Apple didn't "block" access to iTunes, and Palm doesn't have to reinvent iTunes-like desktop software for music management-- which would be insane, since syncing to a mobile device is just a subset of what a program like iTunes does.

Hostility to iTunes notwithstanding, it is the overwhelming incumbent for media management on desktops. How many Pre owners are going to want to have iTunes for the desktop and an entirely different program for handling the same files for their phone? How many Pre owners would even consider the enormous hassle of transferring all of their media out of iTunes and into some program written by a company with a piss poor track record of desktop software, just so they can easily sync that media with their phone?
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #84 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

This is one more anti-competitive, senseless, move by Apple, only meant to inforce an ILLEGAL monopoly. In fact, Apple acts just as if it were led by an ignorant, resentful high school graduate, instead of being the large multinational it should be. Success breeds success, and small-minded actions bring ultimate failure. R.I.P., Apple.



Monopoly on what exactly?
post #85 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akac View Post

Um, why would you ask APPLE to fix a bug in ADOBE's software? Flash is ADOBE.

I actually dont care who fixes it - I am just annoyed that my 1st gen MacBook

a/ sound like a fighter plane taking off and then inevitably
b/ ceases to do anything

when I have a complex Flash (ad) on a website

Oh that and the total lack of support when my high price cell broke (well the wifi chip that is). At least two weeks....no replacement. And once you're used to the mobile internet a la iPhone, you're really hooked
post #86 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Perhaps all this will do is open more people's eyes as to what truly awful trash itunes is when they find an alternative.

They already had an alternative, it's called AMAZON.

If you don't like iTunes, then don't use it. I like it just fine, like most people.
post #87 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

This is one more anti-competitive, senseless, move by Apple, only meant to inforce an ILLEGAL monopoly. In fact, Apple acts just as if it were led by an ignorant, resentful high school graduate, instead of being the large multinational it should be. Success breeds success, and small-minded actions bring ultimate failure. R.I.P., Apple.



Wow! What trash!

Can you back any of that up, or is it just something you spewed out?
post #88 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

If he pays 220 a month he is exaggerating or lying.
My bill is $172 and I have two iPhones' and one normal phone.
That includes unlimited texting, which is my biggest complaint. I have downloaded over 5 gigs of data on my phone, but im still charged 30 bucks for sending a few MGb of texts.

He does have all the bells and whistles though. Guess that makes a difference.

I hear the average price is about $80 a month.
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #89 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Yea, I guess that's what Pre gets for advertising "$1200 cheaper than a iPhone 2 year contract with AT&T"

My friend has two iPhones, he pays $220 a month. Jesus!

I only pay $10-$20 a month for AT&T voice with their pay as you go.

Got $19 a month broadband.

All I know is that my iPhone works wonderfully and has a great signal at my beautiful home here in Rockford, MI (outside Grand Rapids). I get a great signal even when I walk down to my private river front in River Bluffs.....AND I even have great coverage while I'm kayaking here on the Rogue River. I'm just glad that www.whitneyvilleland.com has created such a great neighborhood in a wooded setting that provides the perfect balance of nature and technology that I need in my life.
post #90 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

MS breaks third party software all the time. They just do it sneaky.

Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
post #91 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Feel free to remain amazed, but there is no way in hell that Palm will write an iTunes replacement. They'll write a program that can parse iTunes XML files so that the Pre can talk to the iTunes data base, which is what they should have done in the first place.

There still seems to be some confusion with what is happening: as has been pointed out, the problem wasn't syncing with iTunes per se, it was how Palm went about it-- hacking the USB device identifier/driver to make the Pre present itself as an iPod to the host computer. That's what doesn't work anymore.

Apple didn't "block" access to iTunes, and Palm doesn't have to reinvent iTunes-like desktop software for music management-- which would be insane, since syncing to a mobile device is just a subset of what a program like iTunes does.

Hostility to iTunes notwithstanding, it is the overwhelming incumbent for media management on desktops. How many Pre owners are going to want to have iTunes for the desktop and an entirely different program for handling the same files for their phone? How many Pre owners would even consider the enormous hassle of transferring all of their media out of iTunes and into some program written by a company with a piss poor track record of desktop software, just so they can easily sync that media with their phone?

Free programs (like windows media player of all things) find your media files automatically for you. The hardest part about transferring files would be a simple menu click telling wmp to update the library.

But yeah, you're right. If there's an easier (cheaper) method other than writing their own media software, I'm sure they'll do it being in the financial situation they are in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They already had an alternative, it's called AMAZON.

If you don't like iTunes, then don't use it. I like it just fine, like most people.

Amazon is ok, but not the same. And can't you tell by my post I don't use itunes?
post #92 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.

This one time, with .net 2.0, I programmed an error check method that caught exception messages by their text, then acted on it. With the next .net update, they reworded some of these exception messages and broke my proggie

(if you can't tell, this is a piss poor example since I can think of nothing else)
post #93 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.

It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.

Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.

Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.

There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?

You know about these.
post #94 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.

Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.

Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.

There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?

You know about these.

excuse my ignorance, can you explain what they did with these situations? I'm curious... Perhaps a link explaining? I know it sounds like I'm trying to be a weasel and prove you wrong, but I'm serious about wanting to learn about what happened lol
post #95 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post


Amazon is ok, but not the same. And can't you tell by my post I don't use itunes?

It doesn't have to be the same. It would have been the proper thing to do, and they do it anyway.

I thought you didn't use it, but people use programs while complaining constantly about why they don't want to.
post #96 of 219
There is no way Apple is going to allow a direct competitor to use it's software to sell the competitor's own product at the expense of Apple's own product. Apple is a hardware company that uses software to sell it's hardware. That is it's whole propose of developing iTunes, or any software for that matter. ITunes is about getting people to buy iPods, iPhones, and Macs not content. It may make some money on content downloads, but it is insignificant in terms of it's hardware sales.

Apple isn't preventing Palm from creating it's own version of iTunes. Apple, however, isn't going to allow Palm to piggy back off of iTunes to sell Pres, not should it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That blows my hypothesis.
post #97 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

He does have all the bells and whistles though. Guess that makes a difference.

I hear the average price is about $80 a month.


I forgot about the amount of minutes someone can add, I have the smallest about, If someone went with more, I can total understand it getting up there in price.
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post #98 of 219
Quicktime is another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.

Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.

Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.

There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?

You know about these.
post #99 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

excuse my ignorance, can you explain what they did with these situations? I'm curious... Perhaps a link explaining? I know it sounds like I'm trying to be a weasel and prove you wrong, but I'm serious about wanting to learn about what happened lol

It's pretty obvious you are a teenager and weren't even born when the anti-trust suits, involving not only Netscape, but Real and Quicktime were brought against M$.

You should probably stop asking people for proof and go read up on it, do yourself a favor you have most of this board rolling their eyes at you.
post #100 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by freelander51 View Post

Maybe instead they should fix the BUG of high CPU usage in Safari when a Flash is played.

They've started the ultimate fix by refusing to put flash on the iPhone...
post #101 of 219
That is one of the grounds why Microsoft lost it's anti trust trial. There is quite a bit of sources alleging Microsoft intentionally broke Quicktime in order to push Windows Media. It also allegedly broke a competing version of DOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
post #102 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by holywarrior007 View Post

This is a clear case of monopoly from the Apple

Where, exactly, is Apple a monopoly?

A dominate player, yes - but they aren't actively restraining others from competing. That word is often thrown around and it's obvious those doing so don't understand the true meaning of the word.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
post #103 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Princess Bride


Awesome Movie
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post #104 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgbfoundry View Post

I smell an anti-trust lawsuit in the making. This is the beginning of the anti-competitive legal battles for Apple. Intentionally inhibiting a consumer's use of non-Apple products. Here comes the legal pain. They deserve the lawsuit.

Won't ever happen. There are other stores so their not locked into iTunes. iTunes was written to support Apple products and there is nothing in the law that says they have to support a competitor player. The Palm can write their own transfer program to transfer songs to the Pre and Apple won't stop them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncee View Post

You lucky dog. The local AT&T store here DOES NOT offer roll-over minutes with the iPhone

What??? A local store can't tell you that you can't have roll-over minutes. That's a corporate decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holywarrior007 View Post

This is a clear case of monopoly from the Apple, which is bad. What if tomorrow the MS doesn't allow the iTunes and Safari to run on the Windows. Will the Apple then cry foul?

Totally different. MS sells a OS that anyone can write software for. If they blocked a single vendor it's illegal. If they sold an OS which only they wrote software for then it would be OK to block other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe in miami View Post

Your bill is a lot lower than mine, for the same equipment:

My family plan is the Unity 2100 minutes for $100.
My data plan is $30
2nd iphone is $10/line + $20 for data plan
Third phone is $10/line
Unlimited text is $30
Taxes are $40

Total for me is $240

You pay $40 in taxes Where the heck do you live and remind me to never live there
post #105 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

excuse my ignorance, can you explain what they did with these situations? I'm curious... Perhaps a link explaining?

I don't really want to go looking for links right now. But this is all well known.

MS was accused of, and was found guilty of, hiding information from these companies about Windows (they were originally DOS programs) that they needed to, in a timely fashion, re-write their programs for proper, and enhanced use under Windows 3.0 and up.

It was also found that MS's own developers were using advance information about the OS, which violated the wall they must maintain. They were also found to have been using API's that were not available to third party developers that were crucial to the operation of those apps. As a result all those apps were well behind MS's own on the 3.1 platform, and ended up in their demise to the benefit of MS's own apps, now known as Office.

If that had not occurred, its very possible that Office would just be one suite among several. It also could have hindered MS's growth and profits, as well as their subsequent power in the industry.

Being more recent, you should be familiar with the Netscape case. One of the main problems Netscape had was MS bullying the computer manufacturers with a lack of early release information for their OS if they installed Netscape on their machines.

Computer manufacturers need this pre-release info in order to come out with computers with the proper specs. MS was saying that if a company cooperated, they would get the info, and those that did not, wouldn't. This would have put the non-cooperating companies at a severe disadvantage, so they cooperated.

That was just one of their tactics. They also used their monopoly profits to give IE away for free when Netscape needed to charge.

It's a complex situation, but you get the point.

They also threatened Apple about Quicktime. They said they would stop producing Office for the Mac, a required program for Apple, if Apple continued to produce Quicktime. They came to arrangements when Apple caught them using Apple's code in their own video playback software that ended in the five year commitment to produce new versions of Office and the $150 million non voting investment in Apple. Before MS stole that code, videos in Windows would just play jerkily. Many people noticed the sudden improvement, and now you know why it happened.

Over the years, MS has stolen code from more than a few "partners". You may not like that this is being said, but it's true.

A long time sentiment in the MS world of partners is that MS will eventually steal your code if they want it. You even sign agreements stating that they can see your code. It's a tough business.
post #106 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

The lawsuit would fail. The only possible grounds for a lawsuit would be from the other direction. Apple forcing people who buy ipods to use itunes to load music onto them, thus using their strong mp3 player market share to minimize the use of non itunes media players.

I partly agree. There's still a strong DRM coupling between iTunes non-music content and Apple devices and thus iTunes can be still leveraged to exclude competitors. Apple was wise to get rid of the worst offender though: DRM on music files and thus of the coupling between iPods and iTunes as it was a clear (and rightful) invitation for monopoly lawsuits.
post #107 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Quicktime is another.

I didn't see your post yet, but I mentioned that in my response to Chronster.
post #108 of 219
Wow, what's with all the hate against both Palm and Apple?

Listen, I think Apple could be a bit more open with their platform (using other devices with their software, or using other software for their own devices), but they are not required to support hardware they don't own or code for. iTunes is Apple's product, made specifically to work with their own devices. There's no "monopoly" or "anti-trust" issue here -- its simply a business decision. Apple owns iTunes, and Apple will decide what runs with iTunes.

Palm did a disservice to their customers by allowing their product to sync with a competitor's platform, letting the news hit the web for a couple months, only to have those customers angry and outraged when Apple did what they said they would do months ago -- block it. How many customers do you think were told by the Sprint sales rep. that the Pre works perfectly with their existing iTunes library? How many phones were sold on that promise?

That said, I think Apple gets away with a lot of bullcrap that no one calls them on. Seriously, when Microsoft acts the slightest bit anti-competitive, they're spanked until the cows come home. But when Apple does it, its "good for them." I don't understand that logic.


**EDIT**: I'd like to point out one last thought. YOU CAN STILL SYNC MUSIC AND VIDEO OVER TO THE PALM PRE! Its not like this move actually cripples the phone. In fact, its drag-and-drop model is BETTER in many respects than Apple's one-library-per-device model. Seriously, Pre owners have no reason to care. I'd *KILL* to be able to just drag and drop songs to my iPhone from any computer.
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post #109 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erunno View Post

I partly agree. There's still a strong DRM coupling between iTunes non-music content and Apple devices and thus iTunes can be still leveraged to exclude competitors. Apple was wise to get rid of the worst offender though: DRM on music files and thus of the coupling between iPods and iTunes as it was a clear (and rightful) invitation for monopoly lawsuits.

But that DRM isn't the fault of Apple. It's a requirement of the content companies. Wherever that content is sold, there is DRM.
post #110 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncee View Post

You lucky dog. The local AT&T store here DOES NOT offer roll-over minutes with the iPhone

Skip

that's strange, I also have 2 iPhones on our plan and we have rollover. We accumulated over 2000 already.
post #111 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Wow, what's with all the hate against both Palm and Apple?

Listen, I think Apple could be a bit more open with their platform (using other devices with their software, or using other software for their own devices), but they are not required to support hardware they don't own or code for. iTunes is Apple's product, made specifically to work with their own devices. There's no "monopoly" or "anti-trust" issue here -- its simply a business decision. Apple owns iTunes, and Apple will decide what runs with iTunes.

Palm did a disservice to their customers by allowing their product to sync with a competitor's platform, letting the news hit the web for a couple months, only to have those customers angry and outraged when Apple did what they said they would do months ago -- block it. How many customers do you think were told by the Sprint sales rep. that the Pre works perfectly with their existing iTunes library? How many phones were sold on that promise?

That said, I think Apple gets away with a lot of bullcrap that no one calls them on. Seriously, when Microsoft acts the slightest bit anti-competitive, they're spanked until the cows come home. But when Apple does it, its "good for them." I don't understand that logic.


**EDIT**: I'd like to point out one last thought. YOU CAN STILL SYNC MUSIC AND VIDEO OVER TO THE PALM PRE! A simple drag-and-drop into the Pre works just as well, if not BETTER, than the sync-with-only-one-library model that Apple follows. Seriously, Pre owners have no reason to care. I'd *KILL* to be able to just drag and drop songs to my iPhone from any computer.

MS is called on anything they have a monopoly on, which is Windows. Apple has no monopoly, so they and all other companies who don't have monopolies aren't held to a monopoly standard.
post #112 of 219
They should have done it before Pre was released. Palm cannot piggyback on the iTunes without Apple's agreement.

Palm is a one-trick pony. It has to be fully ready before coming out to play. Palm shouldn't have rushed to the market so early without the juice. So let them make their own software. iTunes is for Apple hardware, not a shareware.

Playing with the big boys is not easy.
post #113 of 219
Is there a real reason why a user should update for those of us that don't care about the Pre one way or another? Most of the people here don't have a Pre so they are not affected by this "fix".
post #114 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

MS is called on anything they have a monopoly on, which is Windows. Apple has no monopoly, so they and all other companies who don't have monopolies aren't held to a monopoly standard.

What are you talking about?? "Apple has no monopoly."

They're the #1 distributor of all digital music sold in the US, they're the #1 distributor of ALL music sold in the US, and they have over 70% of the MP3 player marketshare for Q1 of 2009.

Apple *IS* a monopoly in those fields, and yet they are still held to a different standard than Microsoft.
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post #115 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

Is there a real reason why a user should update for those of us that don't care about the Pre one way or another? Most of the people here don't have a Pre so they are not affected by this "fix".

Not really. All this update did, most likely, was bork the Pre and probably did some tweaks to fix some careless mistakes regarding the iPhone 3GS jailbreak. They're closing up holes, not improving functionality.

If you don't care either way, don't worry about it. Personally, I wouldn't bother unless there was a reason to upgrade.
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post #116 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Apple *IS* a monopoly in those fields

Sigh...

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Please look up the definition of a monopoly. Cross reference with the word dominant.
post #117 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Sigh...

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Please look up the definition of a monopoly. Cross reference with the word dominant.

Dude, relax. Use the word dominant if you'd like, then. Microsoft is "dominant" in the desktop operating system market. Google is "dominant" in the web services market. And Apple is "dominant" in the MP3 player market.

The point is, one of those three companies is always held to a different standard than the rest, and its rare when anyone calls out the crap from the other two. I'm not saying I hate any of these companies -- quite the contrary, as I sit in front of my gaming PC running Windows 7 with my iPhone 3GS -- but they're all in it for themselves, ultimately. That's how you run a successful business.

Point is this:
--Microsoft acts anti-competitively in *ANY* field, not just OS, they're smacked around.
--Apple acts anti-competitively in *ANY* field, they're given a free pass.
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post #118 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

--Apple acts anti-competitively in *ANY* field, they're given a free pass.

Citation, please.
post #119 of 219
One other point

Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Dude, relax. Use the word dominant if you'd like, then. Microsoft is "dominant" in the desktop operating system market.

They are also a convicted monopolist.

Not apples to oranges at all.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to throw around unfounded accusations, please continue. Just don't get defensive when you are called on it.
post #120 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

One other point



They are also a convicted monopolist.

Not apples to oranges at all.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to throw around unfounded accusations, please continue. Just don't get defensive when you are called on it.

My favorite M$ move was to use the code KNOWINGLY for quicktime in their own media application
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