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Microsoft says Apple legal wanted 'Laptop Hunter' ads pulled - Page 5

post #161 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

Microsoft's ads are aimed at different people than Apple's ads. They play to fundamentally different psychology. I don't think a customer who would respond to Microsoft's ads could be persuaded by Apple's ads or vice versa.

I think Apple's and Microsoft's ads preach primarily to their respective choirs.

"Be aware of wonder." ~ Robert Fulghum

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"Be aware of wonder." ~ Robert Fulghum

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post #162 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post

Yeah, I'm not sure that this isn't just a publicity stunt. If it is true, the doofus at Apple who made the call should be canned.

Yes, the laptop hunter ads clearly stretch the truth and mislead, but so do the get a mac ads to a certain degree.

While I prefer MACs to PCs, I am a big believer in that old saying "you get what you pay for". I have used Macs for 20 years and have had very, very few problems. Our PCs at work are always requiring repairs and clean installs and are plagued with viruses and spyware. (yes we run virus software) The Macs just work. Day in and day out, they are rock solid,

I am running the latest version of Mac OS on my six year old 17" PowerBook and it runs great as does my Adobe CS4. Try running the latest flavor of Windows on a six year old laptop!

Yes Macs cost a little more, I'm okay with that, they're better. Even if the hardware was equal, the PC is crippled right out of the box because the OS is Windows!

Unless you want to run software that does not exist on Mac, or play games. In which case, smooth as it is, OSX is the crippled one.

Additionally, number of people having various problems with graphic cards, touch pads, power plugs... is big enough to say Macs don't just work for everyone. If you are not influenced by those problems, good on you. And lack of viruses is definitely a bonus - even if I don't see it as deal-breaker.
post #163 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

Not trying to start a fight here either but you obviously haven't worked for a big enough company if this hasn't happened to you - there's a big, big, reason IT departments are so big, there are so many problems. I had a new video card driver pushed onto my machine and it made the primary application I use for my job (ANSYS so we're not talking about some tiny program here...) crash randomly (and quite often I might add) and then the IT dept had no idea how to get the old driver back and it took (no lie) 4 days to get the proper driver installed...

And it is a PC thing - I've never even heard of anyone having that kind of a problem with a Mac...

Yeah, clicking on "Roll back driver" button in Device Manager is really a task that requires days - heck, even weeks.
post #164 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Unless you want to run software that does not exist on Mac, or play games. In which case, smooth as it is, OSX is the crippled one.

Additionally, number of people having various problems with graphic cards, touch pads, power plugs... is big enough to say Macs don't just work for everyone. If you are not influenced by those problems, good on you. And lack of viruses is definitely a bonus - even if I don't see it as deal-breaker.

Apple has stood behind their products whenever I had problems. The publicized problems are high profile, but don't seem to impact the reliability & warranty work surveys much, such as the ones done by PC World. I don't recall any survey showing another computer company matching or besting Apple's reliability or customer service.

As you say, OS X isn't for everyone. I do have a copy of Windows that I do use, but that doesn't mean I'm going to entirely abandon OS X because of the occasional program with no good Mac counterpart.
post #165 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Apple jacked UK prices up.
Very arrogant of them to jack prices up like they did in worst recession since...

Keep repeating that and maybe it will become true.

Quote:
They can dish it with the 'I'm a Mac'...but can they take it?

Microsoft are now running certain ads with out of date and incorrect Mac pricing. Do you think that's OK? Perhaps Microsoft should just say that all Macs cost $20,000. That should get a few reverse switchers!


Quote:
Their desktop line kinda sucks. Mac Pro too expensive to get quad core performance. iMac nice but limited laptop on a stand. Mac Mini. Well. Grossly inflated price for a computer that has no k/b, mouse, Screen... Laptops look good again...almost but the Macbook white could stand being a hundred or so cheaper.

So.. you want better specs and lower prices. How original.

Quote:
But even as is. Apple aren't reaching a raft of UK buyers who think they are too expensive.

According to Gartner, Apple's last quarter UK figures were a high point. (Up 6%. Pcs down 6%) Why single out the UK?

Quote:
IF Apple are serious they will have to respond to that 'perception' of expensive and lower prices.

Serious about what? The race to the bottom?

Look, you don't like the specs. You don't like the prices. You are feeling hard done by. I understand. Truly I do, however concluding that Apple is making serious business mistakes, because you are unhappy is an emotional response not based on fact.
post #166 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaCameron View Post

I think Apple's and Microsoft's ads preach primarily to their respective choirs.

I agree that many Mac users will get a kick out of the 'Get a Mac" ads.

However, most of the 'preaching' in those ads is generally about common problems with PCs and Windows. Millions of PC users can identify with those problems. Indeed those people probably constitute a larger choir than the Mac singers.
post #167 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACsucks View Post

Quote:
My sociology teacher once said "The masses are morons." Ads like this, and their success might be proof. I don't mean to sound hateful or anything, but the ads are pretty dorky.

Your Sociology teacher is correct and all of you are proof of it. Apples arent any better than PC's, maybe worse. It is proven that Apples have just as many vulnerabilities as PCs. But Apple make-up less than 5% of the market share for computers, so who do you think hackers and virus programmers are going to focus on? 5% of the market or 95% of the market? Yeah, maybe they dropped the prices of their laptops, but that still doesnt reduce the price of replacement parts, or the cost to get an Apple serviced. That is why a business will never use all Apples. Anyways, if you haven't figured it out, Apple over-charges for sub-par products, then tells everyone you have to have one to be cool, ie iPod, the airbook, or MacBook Pro. For every single one of those, there is a cheaper version with better features and functions from a different company. People need to wake-up and learn to think for themselves.

Not to mention that number of home-brew programmers for Mac is much lower than PC programmers - even if you look at it relative to their market shares. If kid wants to learn programming (and eventually become a hacker), what are the chances he/she will choose Mac as a platform..?

Maybe that is why SJ gives software like Garage Band with all Macs - it is better if kids make noise with the drums, rather than learn hacking skills
post #168 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

I do suspect they may be effective - my wife of 11 years just bought a PC despite the fact that we already have 4 Macs in the house - one of which is hers a PowerBook G4 fully loaded with RAM and 10.5.x. I have a PC for work and I work on and support offices full of PCs - and I am not shy about expressing my opinion of Mac vs PC - but I guess she never listens to anything I say - because she after she bought it - she asked me which I think is better and she goes on to say that the Macs are too expensive. Coincidentally the next morning after she told me she ordered a PC - my work PC was stuck in a blue screen on boot regardless of safe mode etc as the result of an antivirus program update that moved some device drivers and rendered the system non functional until I took it to my company's IT department and had them run a custom boot disk and repair utility - the process including travel time only took half a day - but hey the PC is cheaper.

-->
Pathetic that people do not give value to real 'user experience'. How many times you can keep 'cleaning' and reformatting the disk? Do every Tom, Dick and Harry have access to an IT department to which can do all the great tricks?

Remember your job is to use the PC to do work not to just work on the PC itself. Microshit has proven again and again it is not worth a look ever again (the so called flag ship products have sunk - have you ever heard of downgraded upgrading by paying money?)
post #169 of 204
Category A:
Bunch of people who just love getting their hands dirty and generally nothing to do after their employment. The work on PCs at work and do have a reasonable knowledge to call themself 'wizards'. As they do not have any big ambition - just surf, change ram, upgrade graphics card, upgrade hard disk - it is just pass time activity - they spend a lot more on installments. If you give a Mac to these guys - they are going to be upset.

Category B:
Freelancers or people who love to work and move up in their life. They do not want to dirty their hands - but love to be creative, write a lot and love music and visuals. They want a platform which is trouble free and safe to use. Mac suits them very well.

If you are mixed up - the problem starts to crop. Dog loves bones - whereas a tiger needs meat.
post #170 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

I agree that many Mac users will get a kick out of the 'Get a Mac" ads.

However, most of the 'preaching' in those ads is generally about common problems with PCs and Windows. Millions of PC users can identify with those problems. Indeed those people probably constitute a larger choir than the Mac singers.

how many of those millions of PC users who can identify with those common problems are actually swayed by the "Get a Mac" ads? I have the impression that many of them don't pay attention to Apple's commercials at all. I hope (and suspect) Apple's numbers contradict me on this.

I have several PC-user friends who do, in fact, complain rather frequently about the many PC problems highlighted in the Mac ads. Sadly, the point of the ads (i.e., that a Mac is a viable alternative to all those PC headaches) still seems to be lost on them. Either the ads don't get through to them or they outright reject the notion of ever switching to a Mac, usually because they stubbornly cling to grossly outdated misconceptions about Mac compatibility and reliability (clearly not paying attention to any current information about Macsneither from the ads nor from me). Some are cheapskates and think of Macs as too expensive, period. And still others, evidently, just seem more comfortable with what they already know, despite the headaches involved.

Regardless, I've given up on trying to convert PC users to the Mac. They'll switch when, or if, they're ready. Until then, they're welcome to their viruses, spamware, malware, crashes and other such headaches that they willingly accept as "normal computer use." For many, their frustrations will continue to mount and eventually push many of them to the Apple ecosystem (the quality and seamlessly-integrated reliability of which will quickly and easily seduce them) despite Microsoft's clumsy advertising efforts to discredit Macs.

"Be aware of wonder." ~ Robert Fulghum

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"Be aware of wonder." ~ Robert Fulghum

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post #171 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by erinchris View Post

About that premium lock, does Apple have a true gaming system. Premuim systems these days can hadle 30 GB of RAM and more as well as several GB of video memory and cost $10,000 or more noone has a lock on that.

Yep, PCs are toys....Good only for gaming? (your statement, not mine)

For a PC to handle 30 GB of RAM, you need to run Windows in 64-bit (which is very problematic with many drivers and games that use those drivers) I'd also like to see this Premium system that you speak of.
post #172 of 204
In the UK, a member of the public can complain to the Advertising Standards Agency and if the complaint is upheld the ads would be pulled.

And having seen (on utube) a number of the ads that microsoft has been running, most would be pulled as misleading

Those that are criticising Apple for there actions over this are ignoring the fact that the Apple ads stated the facts, where the Microsoft ads are at best bending the truth or being deliberately misleading.

It should be possible for Microsoft to make some valid points without resorting to the tactics used in the campaign referred to here.

The last thing we need from any advertising campaign is misleading messages and plain untruths.
post #173 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Yeah, clicking on "Roll back driver" button in Device Manager is really a task that requires days - heck, even weeks.

Considering I've only had "roll back driver" actually fix a problem 3 times...you can see where I'm going here.
post #174 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT-GuySV View Post

I meant your fridge... "sport"

Oh, My bad
post #175 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

Wow. You obviously have not spent much time working in an IT controlled, corporate environment.

Quite the opposite actually. I just happen to work with competent people.

I'm finding this little thread to be rather alarming in terms of what people are reporting about the IT department at their job. I work in northern VA / DC area, and around here IT is very big. To have an incompetent IT department means you aren't looking past your doorstep in the hiring process.

Just as erinchris said, most of the time the problem lies between the keyboard and the chair.
post #176 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I can sure confirm this part at least.

I also work in IT and in all honesty I think it's pretty Mickey Mouse around my workplace and I would say my skill level is on the fairly low end of things, but ...

even I know that anyone who takes four days to re-install drivers doesn't know what the heck they are doing. The only alternative explanation is that they are talking about some kind of management failure rather than the quality of the IT support, but then these guys were also stupid enough to roll out the card in the first place without proper testing.

Without the details, it's hard to know. It may be that they're backlogged for four days too. Four days of labor would probably cost the company more than the value of the computer. Scratch that, unless it's a workstation type desktop, one day of labor costs more than the value of the computer.
post #177 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT-GuySV View Post

Oh boy!, seems your one of "that" kind of person who can't stand criticism. I'm not defending any OS, as a matter of a fact, I OWN a macbook with leopard and administer an OSX Server, I run several servers and workstations with Debian and OpenSUSE at work, and happens that i also run Several Windows Versions on Servers and Workstations also at work and including Windows 7 for personal effects. When any computer available my little 12 year old boy takes it and manages to do what most people do nowadays Internet, Email, Social Networking, Documents, and multimedia. So of it works for you GREAT.

IT GUY
CISSP, CCNP, LPIC-II, MCITP, MCTS, CWNA, ACSA (10.5)

See, the exception to the rule applies here, with that alphabet soup at the end of your post there it is clear you know how to maintain your computer, so yes a 12 year old will not have issues. These commercials do NOT apply to you. I am a service tech at a retail store, so I see the people these commercials apply to daily, (people that know how to use their computers don't take theirs to a shop for repair) I also use everything under the sun (Including Sun) and by far our problems are simply that Windows is NOT easy for a regular person to maintain. They've embedded the systems restore into the Hard disk on most of the PCs now to make it easier for the customer to just restore the OS. I came into that shop being the ONLY Mac OS user there, I now have seen all the 8 techs in the shop agree with my stance here. Cheap PCs are FANTASTIC for people that know not only how to use them, but how to maintain them. It doesn't help when we have to sell an entire aisle full of Windows Maintenance packages in the store, that in many cases are nothing more than a placebo. The worst thing these people do to their PCs are run registry cleaners....really? that should NOT be necessary, and in most cases they only make it worse. It is way too easy to fool these users with fake Anti-Virus software.

Frankly I wish Apple would get off this kick, they have a really good product and should tout the benefits.
post #178 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Yep, PCs are toys....Good only for gaming? (your statement, not mine)

For a PC to handle 30 GB of RAM, you need to run Windows in 64-bit (which is very problematic with many drivers and games that use those drivers) I'd also like to see this Premium system that you speak of.

Well I can't speak to 30gb, but I can say I've definitely seen 24gb systems. With this motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131390 and two sets of this kit: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820104114 combined with (3) 2GB GTX285's: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130486 and you've got 6GB of shared video ram.

As far as 64bit drivers, they really aren't as problematic as you think these days.
post #179 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Well I can't speak to 30gb, but I can say I've definitely seen 24gb systems. With this motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131390 and two sets of this kit: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820104114 combined with (3) 2GB GTX285's: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130486 and you've got 6GB of shared video ram.

As far as 64bit drivers, they really aren't as problematic as you think these days.

Thank you this post saved me a little time. You can also go to Dell or any number of custom builders and price them out
post #180 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Yep, PCs are toys....Good only for gaming? (your statement, not mine)

For a PC to handle 30 GB of RAM, you need to run Windows in 64-bit (which is very problematic with many drivers and games that use those drivers) I'd also like to see this Premium system that you speak of.


I said nothing like pc's are only for gaming. I was simply asking you if realized the premuim market is gaming systems and was not in the $2000 range.
post #181 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by erinchris View Post

I said nothing like pc's are only for gaming. I was simply asking you if realized the premuim market is gaming systems and was not in the $2000 range.

Kidding. For years people called Mac, toys, I find it interesting that people measure computers now a days on how well they play games. I measure it on how fast it can render a fly through for me.
post #182 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Well I can't speak to 30gb, but I can say I've definitely seen 24gb systems. With this motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131390 and two sets of this kit: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820104114 combined with (3) 2GB GTX285's: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130486 and you've got 6GB of shared video ram.

As far as 64bit drivers, they really aren't as problematic as you think these days.

Cool, so, how well does it run Crysis

You can put 32 GB or RAM in a Mac Pro for just under $10,000 as well and with 2 Nahalem based Xeon Processors.

Lots of games do have problems with 64 bit OS, I've seen it on plenty of Customer units.
post #183 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Quite the opposite actually. I just happen to work with competent people.

I'm finding this little thread to be rather alarming in terms of what people are reporting about the IT department at their job. I work in northern VA / DC area, and around here IT is very big. To have an incompetent IT department means you aren't looking past your doorstep in the hiring process.

Just as erinchris said, most of the time the problem lies between the keyboard and the chair.

Finding incompetence in the IT field isn't difficult.

After 30 years in IT and over 15 of that as a consultant, I'm fairly certain I've looked past my doorstep when I've been responsible for hiring. You only have the opportunity to hire those that apply for the job, and I've been pretty surprised at the number of people that over-represent their capabilities, which leads to incompetence in the IT depts in some of the biggest and "best"...

The network and SAN fiber connection designs at one of the 5 biggest banking establishments in the US is a horrible mess. This same bank is financially doing one of the best jobs, too, which leads me to conclude that as a bank they're very good but as an IT shop they suck.

HAL (let's call them that) has done some terrible design work for their customers - as a HAL professional services consultant, I've seen where they installed network app designs (for Microsoft Office, of all things!) for a big customer with over 30,000 windows workstations ... coupled with a TERRIBLE network design that resulted in huge latency issues for the customer when they wanted to do normal office stuff. It took years to fix... I was there in the design phase and got a reputation for uttering discouraging words about the design to the point where I decided to leave the project. I went back to that company 5 years later for a bit, but left again when a better opportunity beckoned,

Another company I worked at had a "business partner" (one that had a revenue of $16.74 billion or so) doing an Oracle implementation for their ERP app... $millions down the tube, ended up canning the project there too.

I've worked for companies with good IT depts too, like Boeing, so I don't always have a critical impression of IT departments. Some are good, some are bad, but most I've seen are just average, and I gotta say, an "average" IT department is linda lame to work for. I guess I expect better.
post #184 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Cool, so, how well does it run Crysis

You can put 32 GB or RAM in a Mac Pro for just under $10,000 as well and with 2 Nahalem based Xeon Processors.

Lots of games do have problems with 64 bit OS, I've seen it on plenty of Customer units.

Well that's a dual socket motherboard. Very high end. I've seen the diehards at extremeoverclockers or techpowerup with server boards in their gaming rigs. Once you get into that level of hardware, 32gb of ram definitely isn't impossible.

BTW I really would like to see how a system with the hardware I linked to would handle crysis. I'm sure it would be playable, but above 60fps average? It's hard to find a review that's unrealistic in terms of what people spend their money on so I dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Finding incompetence in the IT field isn't difficult.

After 30 years in IT and over 15 of that as a consultant, I'm fairly certain I've looked past my doorstep when I've been responsible for hiring. You only have the opportunity to hire those that apply for the job, and I've been pretty surprised at the number of people that over-represent their capabilities, which leads to incompetence in the IT depts in some of the biggest and "best"...

The network and SAN fiber connection designs at one of the 5 biggest banking establishments in the US is a horrible mess. This same bank is financially doing one of the best jobs, too, which leads me to conclude that as a bank they're very good but as an IT shop they suck.

HAL (let's call them that) has done some terrible design work for their customers - as a HAL professional services consultant, I've seen where they installed network app designs (for Microsoft Office, of all things!) for a big customer with over 30,000 windows workstations ... coupled with a TERRIBLE network design that resulted in huge latency issues for the customer when they wanted to do normal office stuff. It took years to fix... I was there in the design phase and got a reputation for uttering discouraging words about the design to the point where I decided to leave the project. I went back to that company 5 years later for a bit, but left again when a better opportunity beckoned,

Another company I worked at had a "business partner" (one that had a revenue of $16.74 billion or so) doing an Oracle implementation for their ERP app... $millions down the tube, ended up canning the project there too.

I've worked for companies with good IT depts too, like Boeing, so I don't always have a critical impression of IT departments. Some are good, some are bad, but most I've seen are just average, and I gotta say, an "average" IT department is linda lame to work for. I guess I expect better.

Yeah see, you've been in IT for longer than I've been alive lol. I guess I just have lucked out so far. I dread the idea that someday I'll switch jobs and find myself in a place like you describe, where people are under-qualified or just don't care about the quality of work they produce.

Thanks for the input.
post #185 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by erinchris View Post

About that premium lock, does Apple have a true gaming system. Premuim systems these days can hadle 30 GB of RAM and more as well as several GB of video memory and cost $10,000 or more noone has a lock on that.

The concept of a "serious gamer" and spending $10k on a single computer for playing games is amusing to me. I'm pretty sure it's possible to have fun without spending $10k, that has to be way beyond the optimal cost/benefit in terms of performance, a $10k gaming computer just becomes a penis waving exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Cool, so, how well does it run Crysis

You can put 32 GB or RAM in a Mac Pro for just under $10,000 as well and with 2 Nahalem based Xeon Processors.

That's a stupid price, I had to go look it up to confirm, you can save $5000 by buying the RAM elsewhere. Seriously, OWC (macsales dot com) wants $1200 compared to Apple's $6100. Does 32GB make the game any smoother than with 8 or 16?

Another problem, which someone might have pointed out, is that Apple is often a graphics card generation behind on Mac Pro. Sometimes they have the new top dog, but they keep the same card choices for over a year. And you can't do SLI in OS X, though it's probably not a big deal if you reboot to play in Windows, you can do SLI on a Mac Pro in Windows.
post #186 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

See, the exception to the rule applies here, with that alphabet soup at the end of your post there it is clear you know how to maintain your computer, so yes a 12 year old will not have issues. These commercials do NOT apply to you. I am a service tech at a retail store, so I see the people these commercials apply to daily, (people that know how to use their computers don't take theirs to a shop for repair) I also use everything under the sun (Including Sun) and by far our problems are simply that Windows is NOT easy for a regular person to maintain. They've embedded the systems restore into the Hard disk on most of the PCs now to make it easier for the customer to just restore the OS. I came into that shop being the ONLY Mac OS user there, I now have seen all the 8 techs in the shop agree with my stance here. Cheap PCs are FANTASTIC for people that know not only how to use them, but how to maintain them. It doesn't help when we have to sell an entire aisle full of Windows Maintenance packages in the store, that in many cases are nothing more than a placebo. The worst thing these people do to their PCs are run registry cleaners....really? that should NOT be necessary, and in most cases they only make it worse. It is way too easy to fool these users with fake Anti-Virus software.

Frankly I wish Apple would get off this kick, they have a really good product and should tout the benefits.

I Think it's a good product too... what i can't stand are Fanboys and Trolls... The companies... they ALL lie, M$, Apple, Intel, AMD and several others... just to make money... i think what bothers me most of Apple is buying also the egotistical attitude that Jobs has, what bothers me from Microsoft is not making better efforts to deliver a more polished product, Windows 7 is what Vista Should've been, in my opinion. Linux, is different, it's geek territory, and i love it, but as many Linux fans, there's an internal war happening there, and i have chosen my band... oops distro. Technical advances are not exclusive it's just they are called different across platforms... You got a very good point on the maintenance... well, but that's meat from another grill

Cheers
post #187 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Finding incompetence in the IT field isn't difficult.

After 30 years in IT and over 15 of that as a consultant, I'm fairly certain I've looked past my doorstep when I've been responsible for hiring. You only have the opportunity to hire those that apply for the job, and I've been pretty surprised at the number of people that over-represent their capabilities, which leads to incompetence in the IT depts in some of the biggest and "best"...

The network and SAN fiber connection designs at one of the 5 biggest banking establishments in the US is a horrible mess. This same bank is financially doing one of the best jobs, too, which leads me to conclude that as a bank they're very good but as an IT shop they suck.

HAL (let's call them that) has done some terrible design work for their customers - as a HAL professional services consultant, I've seen where they installed network app designs (for Microsoft Office, of all things!) for a big customer with over 30,000 windows workstations ... coupled with a TERRIBLE network design that resulted in huge latency issues for the customer when they wanted to do normal office stuff. It took years to fix... I was there in the design phase and got a reputation for uttering discouraging words about the design to the point where I decided to leave the project. I went back to that company 5 years later for a bit, but left again when a better opportunity beckoned,

Another company I worked at had a "business partner" (one that had a revenue of $16.74 billion or so) doing an Oracle implementation for their ERP app... $millions down the tube, ended up canning the project there too.

I've worked for companies with good IT depts too, like Boeing, so I don't always have a critical impression of IT departments. Some are good, some are bad, but most I've seen are just average, and I gotta say, an "average" IT department is linda lame to work for. I guess I expect better.

It's always good to read this kind of input, i think that people make the difference, because in some cases the budget limitations are an influence to the outcome of our management, but what determines it is our people, a person owns the business processes, and if he/she is prepared, motivated and is knowledgable even on that limitations, you can have an IT department with far better performance than the average (in which i agree with your opinion)

I don't have as many years of experience as you (11), but because i'm also a trainer and a speaker, i constantly meet different kind of people with different scenarios and "styles"... in some cases the intention is good, but the knowledge is almost non-existent, or people tend to believe if the budgets are low, their performance will be low too... well let's not forget the professional jealousy. That all is a contributing factor to the average.

Cheers
post #188 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

I agree that many Mac users will get a kick out of the 'Get a Mac" ads.

Many PC users get a kick out of them, too.
post #189 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

The concept of a "serious gamer" and spending $10k on a single computer for playing games is amusing to me. I'm pretty sure it's possible to have fun without spending $10k, that has to be way beyond the optimal cost/benefit in terms of performance, a $10k gaming computer just becomes a penis waving exercise.

That's a stupid price, I had to go look it up to confirm, you can save $5000 by buying the RAM elsewhere. Seriously, OWC (macsales dot com) wants $1200 compared to Apple's $6100. Does 32GB make the game any smoother than with 8 or 16?

Another problem, which someone might have pointed out, is that Apple is often a graphics card generation behind on Mac Pro. Sometimes they have the new top dog, but they keep the same card choices for over a year. And you can't do SLI in OS X, though it's probably not a big deal if you reboot to play in Windows, you can do SLI on a Mac Pro in Windows.

A "serious gamer" might spend several grand on a PC, but he'll spend it on graphics, not RAM. Going from 8GB to 32 isn't going to have any effect on game performance. Neither is going from one quad-core processor to two of them. No gamer would bother with a Mac Pro, not because it's too much computer, but because it's too much computer in the wrong places.

A high-end gaming rig and a workstation are similar in price, but very different animals.
post #190 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

The concept of a "serious gamer" and spending $10k on a single computer for playing games is amusing to me. I'm pretty sure it's possible to have fun without spending $10k, that has to be way beyond the optimal cost/benefit in terms of performance, a $10k gaming computer just becomes a penis waving exercise.

My Mac IIfx cost $14,000 when it was new...but that is a whole other realm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's a stupid price, I had to go look it up to confirm, you can save $5000 by buying the RAM elsewhere. Seriously, OWC (macsales dot com) wants $1200 compared to Apple's $6100. Does 32GB make the game any smoother than with 8 or 16?

Oh, everyone knows that, just pointing out that in the High End Premium Market, Apple competes very well, and in many cases gives you a lot more. 32 GB of RAM will do nothing for a game unless the code is written to take advantage of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Another problem, which someone might have pointed out, is that Apple is often a graphics card generation behind on Mac Pro. Sometimes they have the new top dog, but they keep the same card choices for over a year. And you can't do SLI in OS X, though it's probably not a big deal if you reboot to play in Windows, you can do SLI on a Mac Pro in Windows.

Probably the only real hardware issue out there for Apple, I don't agree that it is entirely their fault, they have had a hard time getting on board with the GPU makers to come to grips with how the GPU should be handled on Mac OS X, being they single source just about all the other components, the flip flopping between ATI and nVidia does not help the situation. I can see Apple producing (having someone produce) their own GPU in the future, but then you lose the Apples to Apples Comparison, But people need to understand the Core of the video and graphic driver of the Mac OS X is very different than Windows, I think Apple's code is much cleaner and performance is gained that way.
post #191 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT-GuySV View Post

I Think it's a good product too... what i can't stand are Fanboys and Trolls... The companies... they ALL lie, M$, Apple, Intel, AMD and several others... just to make money... i think what bothers me most of Apple is buying also the egotistical attitude that Jobs has, what bothers me from Microsoft is not making better efforts to deliver a more polished product, Windows 7 is what Vista Should've been, in my opinion. Linux, is different, it's geek territory, and i love it, but as many Linux fans, there's an internal war happening there, and i have chosen my band... oops distro. Technical advances are not exclusive it's just they are called different across platforms... You got a very good point on the maintenance... well, but that's meat from another grill

Cheers

I think we agree completely here, I've always said use the best tool for the job. Unfortunately, some people prefer to install screws with a hammer.

In addressing the real topic at hand, Advertising to the common consumer, you would likely have to agree that Linux really isn't the way to go for a lot of people out there. But the meat of the discussion is who is telling the most lies, because frankly both sides aren't telling the whole truth. I've been a Mac User since day one, before that I had an Apple IIc and a IIgs, before that, Commodore 64, I've had a NeXt, Sun Sparqstation, SGI O2 and Onyx. I've supported on large scale every version of MS-DOS and Windows out there. but I always come home to my Mac, It's just the horse I run with. It is much easier now than ever to own a Mac, because with the hardware and virtualization, I can do on it what I want. My Mac Pro has OSX and Windows XP, my iMac is running Windows 7 RC along with its native OS. I don't run much Linux, only because it simply does not meet my needs, I have lots of friends that run it though, because they hate Windows and do not want to spend the premium for the Mac. But they do agree with me often that there are limitations for them on some things mostly just available software, and by that I mean gaming.

The ads we see on TV just don't apply to us IT people, we all know all the little white lies both sides are telling, I personally can't stand a lot of the switchers whining about their Mac because they took the commercials at face value and did not bother to educate themselves on the basic operation of their computer. 99% of Mac issues I've seen come through the door is solved by showing them what they are doing wrong, the OS is stable and secure, I don't have dll issues preventing the system from shutting down properly and have not had to clear a buffer in the registry to allow their CD drive to function properly again. But those darn ads, they spread the false hope that you need not do any maintenance on the computer, and you don't have to know any more that how to turn it on. But are they entertaining, absolutely, this is why they hired actors.

The MS ads often leave me forgetting that they are even MS commercials, MS isn't touting their product, they are showing you how inexpensive HP's hardware is. I still don't believe the latest ad where the couple walks out of the store with ONLY a new laptop, and no other software, Anti-Virus, or even a surge protector. Most salesmen are good at selling at least a surge protector or laptop case with it. And MS seems to shy away from the fact that they also can run their OS on Apple's hardware. Almost every Mac we sell at the store I'm at gets sold with a copy of Windows, I've even done the install for them.
post #192 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Oh, everyone knows that, just pointing out that in the High End Premium Market, Apple competes very well, and in many cases gives you a lot more. 32 GB of RAM will do nothing for a game unless the code is written to take advantage of it.

Even if your largest most complex game was completely loaded into RAM, it would be nowhere near 32gb. It's not how they write their code, its how many textures and models need to be loaded. I think you simply meant to say "unless the game is designed to take advantage". Sorry, I nitpick.

The most immediate idea that comes to mind when I consider what would utilize 32gb of ram in a mac pro is professional movie editing.

Either way, I think 6-8gb of ram is way more than enough at this point in time for any serious gamer.
post #193 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACsucks View Post

Your Sociology teacher is correct and all of you are proof of it. Apples arent any better than PC's, maybe worse. It is proven that Apples have just as many vulnerabilities as PCs. But Apple make-up less than 5% of the market share for computers, so who do you think hackers and virus programmers are going to focus on? 5% of the market or 95% of the market? Yeah, maybe they dropped the prices of their laptops, but that still doesnt reduce the price of replacement parts, or the cost to get an Apple serviced. That is why a business will never use all Apples. Anyways, if you haven't figured it out, Apple over-charges for sub-par products, then tells everyone you have to have one to be cool, ie iPod, the airbook, or MacBook Pro. For every single one of those, there is a cheaper version with better features and functions from a different company. People need to wake-up and learn to think for themselves.

How old are you? 18? Don't preach to me about thinking for myself. I'll pick whatever damn computer I want. Aesthetics play a very minor role, but I make my choices based on performance, ease-of-use, and reliability. I worked on PCs for over a decade and a half before switching to Mac and resisted the switch for the longest imaginable time, but when they moved over to Intel it was time to dump the buggy, virus-riddled, OS copying, PC brand.

I'll continue to think for myself and if Apple does something that makes me discontent then I will switch to something else, but I definitely don't need some punk kid that hasn't even finished college (maybe even high school) telling me how to think.
post #194 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaCameron View Post

how many of those millions of PC users who can identify with those common problems are actually swayed by the "Get a Mac" ads? I have the impression that many of them don't pay attention to Apple's commercials at all. I hope (and suspect) Apple's numbers contradict me on this.

How many of those millions of Pc users does Apple need? Not many.

It doesn't matter what the product is, lots of people simply ignore adverts. And many people (as you go on to describe) are quite content with their own inertia. You can't convince everyone.

As to the numbers well... in the three years prior to the Get a Mac campaign Apple sold 12 million Macs. In the three years after the campaign... 25 million Macs.

I believe that another measure of the success of an ad campaign is it's longevity. Apple has run this campaign for three years and the same simple premise has not wavered one bit. I suspect that Apple and it's ad agency would have much better figures than mine to show you.

Conversely, we are only a few months into Microsoft's "fight back" and we have had Seinfield, Cute kiddies, "I'm a PC" and now Laptop Hunters. There is nothing wrong with a diverse approach but , to me, it smacks of just throwing money at the problem.

Talking of money, how many people have been persuaded by Microsoft's campaigns? How many recent Mac switchers have switched back? How many PC users (who were seriously considering it) didn't buy a Mac? How many PC users already new that Macs were more expensive? It could be that a significant number were swayed by these ads... but at what cost? 300 million dollars was the initial figure being touted around. I suspect that has risen by now. For every punter convinced by Laptop Hunters, Microsoft gets what... $50-$60 from the OEM(?). That's an awful lot of PC's. On the other hand Apple makes a $1500 dollar sale (approx) from every switcher.

This is not an anti-Microsoft rant. It's a pro good-advertising rant. When the laptop ads started running the pundits and bloggers all chimed in with how effective they were because the Apple fanatics got upset. Now we get some Microsoft executive claiming that the ads are effective because Apple legal are upset about incorrect pricing still being broadcast. That is no measure of anything other than fanboy point scoring.

Microsoft, tell us how many people you persuaded to buy a cheap PC laptop over a pricier PC laptop. Tell us how many people you dissuaded from buying a Mac. in other words... "Show me the money!"
post #195 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc362 View Post

How old are you? 18? Don't preach to me about thinking for myself. I'll pick whatever damn computer I want. Aesthetics play a very minor role, but I make my choices based on performance, ease-of-use, and reliability. I worked on PCs for over a decade and a half before switching to Mac and resisted the switch for the longest imaginable time, but when they moved over to Intel it was time to dump the buggy, virus-riddled, OS copying, PC brand.

I'll continue to think for myself and if Apple does something that makes me discontent then I will switch to something else, but I definitely don't need some punk kid that hasn't even finished college (maybe even high school) telling me how to think.

I've removed the original troll post, it's been beaten to death.

It does amuse me how the anti-Mac trolls are trying to use the bandwagon argument as if it's going to sway people. The Sucks guy was in a way saying: Think for yourself, join the bigger herd. As much as the kool-aid drinking goes on in the Mac camp, there are a lot in the Windows camp that seems to do the same thing, and their argument is as much side with the bigger religion because there's more people in it.

My position is somewhat utilitarian as well. I don't care for the glitter, and Apple's swoopy transitions waste time and irritate me. But I don't feel like I have to tiptoe as much with my Mac as I do with my Windows computer. I still get problems with the Mac, but not as many and they're usually a lot easier to fix.

Then there's the service, that doesn't get much mention. Anyone concerned about service generally doesn't need to with Apple, if it's still in warranty, the Apple store will look at it for free, a pretty good bonus if you live near enough to an Apple store. Beats being on hold with most computer vendors.
post #196 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

As much as the kool-aid drinking goes on in the Mac camp, there are a lot in the Windows camp that seems to do the same thing, and their argument is as much side with the bigger religion because there's more people in it.

First I want to say thank you for not referring to Windows as "PC". I absolutely hate that. Whether you like it or not, Macs are PC's just as much as Windows PC's and Linux PC's.
Second, to actually stay on track and not stray into a childish bloviation about how Macs are lame and Windows sucks (because they both have their good and bads, and I'm sure people will agree that those who participate in that type of "discussion" are synonymous with idiots), I think the ads are effective to it's target audience (you know that group of people that ads are directed to. It's obviously not die-hard Mac users) people that don't want to pay a lot for a PC.The average, non-power user of PC's generally use computers for surfing the web, paying bills perhaps, making Documents, checking email, watch movies, etc. Not everyone needs an expensive computer that "looks nice" or "comes preloaded with ALL these programs." If that is watch you are going use a PC for then why spend $1200+ when you could spend as little as $400? NOW the choice of a Mac or Windows for more "advanced" users would more or less depend on if I want to do things like photo/video editing, using bittorents (to not get viruses), minimal advanced customization of things like the registry, good-looking device, not really for gaming... then a Mac would be a wonderful choice. From a company that gets to make (or say) in most of the hardware and software that goes into the device no wonder why it works so well. If you wanted advanced control over every bit of your PC, gaming, more powerful parts, plethora of software, and you need to be on a budget (or not)... a Windows device is good for you. (BTW a recent study show netbooks are outselling are other PC's right now)

so as far as effectiveness, I do believe the ads are effective... to it's target audience.
post #197 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmnez View Post

I think the ads are effective to it's target audience (you know that group of people that ads are directed to. It's obviously not die-hard Mac users) people that don't want to pay a lot for a PC.

Yes , but would those people seriously be considering a Mac in the first place? I don't think so.

Two minutes online at the Apple store tells you all you need to know about Apple pricing.
post #198 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmnez View Post

First I want to say thank you for not referring to Windows as "PC". I absolutely hate that. Whether you like it or not, Macs are PC's just as much as Windows PC's and Linux PC's.

I really don't think it's such a huge deal, but it helps to reiterate what is meant on occasion.

I think PC is still a good and valid short hand, and here's why:

You are right, PC means personal computer. But also, it means a particular platform lineage. IBM had a model PC that had an x86 chip and sold with a Microsoft OS. That particular designation defined the platform and later evolved to mean a Windows computer. The IBM PC clones defined their machines as "PC compatible" for many years, even several years after the model PC line was gone.

Saying Mac is a PC is even more true now that Macs are x86 and can run Windows, but it's still a lot easier to just call it Mac and PC as if they are different platforms because it's an easy short hand and they are sold and used as different platforms. I think people generally concern themselves more with the software than the hardware.
post #199 of 204
I have posted this "challenge" before, but whenever this debate rears its head I think it's nice to repeat it. I have done this several times and the results are always the same.

Give two beginning users a computer and a video camera and printer: one gets a Windows machine, the other a Mac. Ask them to agree on a topic (birds in our town, fall foliage, cars, our family, my home, whatever) and then ask them to produce the following presenting the topic without asking a friend for help (ie, limiting them to online and call center assistance):
- a homepage (slideshow, video)
- a presentation
- a DVD
- a pamphlet (printed and downloadable, ie, PDF)

The person who gets the Mac has always finished first and had a better experience, eg, fewer hassles, headaches, calls to customer help, and always produced better results. Many times, upon seeing the results, the person who got the Windows machine ditches it for a Mac, incurring more cost, but they say that the lack of hassle is worth any extra cost. They just want to get things done. And my experiences with this challenge so far have been before the price cuts.

Next time the chance arrives, I will actually try documenting the whole thing.

Once, I let a friend who was pretty good at using his Windows machine to make videos and his own homepage borrow my PowerBook for the weekend to give it a try. I gave him the computer Friday afternoon. He called Saturday night to say I could come get my PowerBook as he was done with it. He had bought his own that afternoon, after using a Mac for just a few hours.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #200 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I have posted this "challenge" before, but whenever this debate rears its head I think it's nice to repeat it. I have done this several times and the results are always the same.

Give two beginning users a computer and a video camera and printer: one gets a Windows machine, the other a Mac. Ask them to agree on a topic (birds in our town, fall foliage, cars, our family, my home, whatever) and then ask them to produce the following presenting the topic without asking a friend for help (ie, limiting them to online and call center assistance):
- a homepage (slideshow, video)
- a presentation
- a DVD
- a pamphlet (printed and downloadable, ie, PDF)

The person who gets the Mac has always finished first and had a better experience, eg, fewer hassles, headaches, calls to customer help, and always produced better results. Many times, upon seeing the results, the person who got the Windows machine ditches it for a Mac, incurring more cost, but they say that the lack of hassle is worth any extra cost. They just want to get things done. And my experiences with this challenge so far have been before the price cuts.

Next time the chance arrives, I will actually try documenting the whole thing.

Once, I let a friend who was pretty good at using his Windows machine to make videos and his own homepage borrow my PowerBook for the weekend to give it a try. I gave him the computer Friday afternoon. He called Saturday night to say I could come get my PowerBook as he was done with it. He had bought his own that afternoon, after using a Mac for just a few hours.

Well that challenge doesn't seem fair. The iLife suite is designed to handle all those task well. Most Windows computers don't have software that can do those task (do it well at least). Further more, if you purchase software that does that for your Windows machine they do not seamlessly work together like the programs in iLife. Sounds like your "challenge" is pretty one sided. You should have the challenge be more general (surfing, ease of OS use, watching movies, and other simple and remedial task) and then more specific uses (like your challenge, playing games, music creation, business type stuff). That's not really fair to say "here is a challenge between a Windows PC and a Mac PC to do what a Mac does well." If that's the case, you should have a challenge in ease of hardware upgrading and also which PC can run Crysis, COD MW, GTA 4, and BioShock at full power. Doesn't sound fair does it?
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