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Nokia stock nosedives as Apple gains on market leader - Page 2

post #41 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Nothing can be forecasted with certainty. However, if Nokia was not capable of building a "...new, robust OS with a focus on UI..." when they were a $120B mkt cap company, I seriously doubt that they can do so as a $50B company.

You may be right, but we have seen companies come back strong after longer periods of being less ineffectual in the market, and with a lot less money and resources at hand.
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post #42 of 272
I wonder how many companies can pull an Apple and consolodate products down to a single offering or maybe 2-3 models successfully. It so goes against traditional logic, but from a marketing perspective it is so completely pure.

Nokia built their success on the opposite model, as has HTC. LG and Samsung seem a little closer to it, but not really. RIM is moving away from that purity.

It will be interesting to see which approach is best long-term.
post #43 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

From what Im told, the N97 feels as fast as the 3GS which is liekly in many tasks considering its not using the hefty OS X, but it still has half the 3G radio bandwidth capability with only 3.6Mbps, an ARM11(ARM v6) at 434MHz with 128MB RAM. For this to be Nokias flapship smartphone it seems remiss to not to at leastoffer the Cortex A8 (ARM v7), which adds power and battery performance. I hope they are working on something great over in Finland. Ill be watching their news seeing if they look like a good company to invest in.

I heard there is big market in Finlind for Raindeer blood !
post #44 of 272
They may find it difficult to change.

This is the article with the "Motorola minute" in it. It sums up things fairly well

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/17/nok...partner=alerts
post #45 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmann View Post

Here we are now years after the iphone was introduced and what has Nokia done? almost nothing to create a similar total solution..

That is the critical observation. Nails it for me.
post #46 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You may be right, but we have seen companies come back strong after longer periods of being less ineffectual in the market, and with a lot less money and resources at hand.

Yes, that's true too (and I have no doubt you mean Apple ). But they are truly the exception.

Look, I hope Nokia is one of those too. But I doubt it. Because they seem to lack the computer software skills that Apple has. I believe that the future of mobile telephony lies in computing (in the broad sense of the term) and not in just enabling phone calls (which Nokia was great at).
post #47 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

In comparison to most Nokia phones the iPhone camera is still lacking with only 3Mpx, of which you stated that 5Mpx was the minimum the iPhone should have.

5 megapixels on a camera phone? Are you kidding? Why are people still even talking about this stuff? Unless you're planning to make posters out of your phone pictures, there comes a point when the amount of megapixels being used is largely a joke, and definitely a waste of storage space—and we're at that point. If you want to compare the photos, compare the quality of the result. In a cell phone camera the quality of the optics is the major factor to consider. Too bad for the industry there's no handy number to rate that. It doesn't matter if a camera is 12 megapixels if the optics suck...
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post #48 of 272
Linux is a loser on the desktop with app names like gimp that make thnk of the s&m dude who lived on a box in pulp fiction

nokia is a loser because their cell phone os is named after a sex machine
post #49 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Yes, that's true too (and I have no doubt you mean Apple ). But they are truly the exception.

Look, I hope Nokia is one of those too. But I doubt it. Because they seem to lack the computer software skills that Apple has. I believe that the future of mobile telephony lies in computing (in the broad sense of the term) and not in just enabling phone calls (which Nokia was great at).

I dont think many would have thought Palm, who was(is?) licensing WinMo from MS and having designed their antiquated PalmOS would have been able to create WebOS. Its not perfect and very weak in compared to OS X, but there are some areas it does excel in. Areas I hope Apple takes a cue from for their iPhone OS X upgrades.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

5 megapixels on a camera phone? Are you kidding? Why are people still even talking about this stuff? Unless you're planning to make posters out of your phone pictures, there comes a point when the amount of megapixels being used is largely a joke, and definitely a waste of storage spaceand we're at that point. If you want to compare the photos, compare the quality of the result. In a cell phone camera the quality of the optics is the major factor to consider. Too bad for the industry there's no handy number to rate that. It doesn't matter if a camera is 12 megapixels if the optics suck...

Im right there with you. Some people here want simply want it because its more. In Nokias defense the camera phones often do look better than the iPhone at the same resolution due to the better optics that can be used in those larger phones.


Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

Linux is a loser on the desktop with app names like gimp that make thnk of the s&m dude who lived on a box in pulp fiction

nokia is a loser because their cell phone os is named after a sex machine

Sybian is the sex machine, not Symbian. If they want their OS to be named after a real sex machine theyll name it Solipsism.
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post #50 of 272
One of the numbers to come out of the report is the average handset selling price fell to 62 down 3 since last quarter, Nokia may be selling a lot of phones but they are mainly cheap ones.
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post #51 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

One of the numbers to come out of the report is the average handset selling price fell to 62 down 3 since last quarter, Nokia may be selling a lot of phones but they are mainly cheap ones.

I believe I also read that there operating costs have dramatically increased. That could mean many things, for example, longterm R&D or a budget increase in marketing.
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post #52 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You snooze, you loose.

I don't know if I can handle tekstud as a fanboi
post #53 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Yes.

I must say I've been here quite a while and I've never noticed solipsism to be "anti-Apple" at all. In fact he/she is mostly an intelligent, unbiased and thoughtful type. Teckstud can hardly say the same.

Just for the record, when I was calling Solip "anti-Apple" I was really poking Techstud (in a friendly way) over his aparent reversals...
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post #54 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Yes.

I must say I've been here quite a while and I've never noticed solipsism to be "anti-Apple" at all. In fact he/she is mostly an intelligent, unbiased and thoughtful type. Teckstud can hardly say the same.

That was a joke that the other poster made, of which you obviously didn't get.
Unbiased? He's totally biased towards APPle (some call it a fanboy, kool-aid drinker- I won't). Amything that is not currently in an APPle product that people want, be it matte screens, MMS texting , video on a phone, small form pro laptop, etc, etc, etc, - he opposes- say it's not in the Apple business model, not needed, or whatever- only because Apple in not currently offering it. He call us complainers. Then when Apple delivers what we've been asking for he gets all bent out of shape. Puhleez- do you even know what biased means?
post #55 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Just for the record, when I was calling Solip "anti-Apple" I was really poking Techstud (in a friendly way) over his aparent reversals...

I can't believe these sensitive types didn't get the irony!
post #56 of 272
It is bound to happen, though none was expecting it to be this soon. Apple will dominate this lucrative market within the next 2 years. Don't listen to naysayers. Don't believe paid analysts. Look at the real number - dollars. That is the real truth. Yes, Nokia may ship hundreds of millions of phones per year, it is not a proof of anything. Motorola ships millions too, and yet they are on the verge of going under.

Nokia phones is a commodity. Apple iPhone is not. It is a functional desire. It is sexy. And more people desire it, more than they will admit. It is the THING!

The march is on, and there is no stopping Apple for a long time to come. You haven't seen nothing yet. The best is et to come!
post #57 of 272
Has no one visited that... cough app-store cough.... It looks like something my Grandmother could have done and she'd been dead going on 10 years... At least they can't be accused of copying Apple... That's for sure!!!

D
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post #58 of 272
With 2G GSM phones Nokia has the advantage that they part of the GSM IPR group with this company controlling the bulk of the IPRs. Anybody outside the cabal had to pay big time royalties. The company also design a good and simple user interface. The design was simple to candy bar type on a single circuit board. Everything else just clicked together... 6 basic designs.

With 3G, Nokia has to pay royalties to others like QCOM. The whole phone has morphed into a portable data platform with a powerful OS like the in the iPhone, plus the apps and the value chain. This kind of change is very disruptive to the existing order and their profits and market cap reflects this reality.

They did a good job fighting QCOM and got a reduced royalty rate... but no longer control the architecture. If they continue in the current path, their phones will be just commodities for low end use here and 3rd world thin margin biz.

When the telco tech went from circuit switched networks to IP... guess what happened? Lucent, Nortel, etc that dominated the circuit switches just imploded and the Cisco controls the business. Cisco developed a disruptive tech... and the old companies just got wiped out. BTW, Lucent and Nortel were no light weights either - in their heyday, they had business in cash, huge market caps $100B. Lucent has Bell Labs with experts in every area and even Nobel Prize winners.

Will Nokia end up in the dust heap of history? May be not... they can always go back to selling rubber boots.
post #59 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They may find it difficult to change.

This is the article with the "Motorola minute" in it. It sums up things fairly well

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/17/nok...partner=alerts

Nokia is trying to change, so we can say that at least they largely see how they aren't set up for the future. See the conference call transcript at http://seekingalpha.com/article/1493...all-transcript

That's the good news for NOK. The bad news is that they're trying to become user solutions centric, which Apple already is. Nokia's CEO highlighted five key points about the coming transformation of the smartphone market. But while Nokia is just getting started in many of those areas, Apple is already doing four of the five; only lacking in the openness-partnership area (which I believe is overrated).

So this transformation started with the iPhone (though one could argue that iPhone 2.0 software and 3G is the real beginning point). Including this quarter, Apple has sold about 27M phones. However, the current cellphone market has 4B subscriptions, and possibly up to 50% of those subscribers could buy such phones over the next 5 years, so that's 2B potential units to be sold. From that perspective, this market is still in its infancy so Nokia has a chance, but Apple is already out in front in UI, media content, native apps, and device pricing. But there's still 98.6% of the market to go.
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post #60 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I’m right there with you. Some people here want simply want it because it’s more. In Nokia’s defense the camera phones often do look better than the iPhone at the same resolution due to the better optics that can be used in those larger phones.

Hey, there was a complaint from the PCmag reviewer about Nokia not putting the 8 MP camera from the N86 in the camera.

Some of these guys may know about the electronics they review, but they don't have good ears or eyes for quality sound or photography.

Quote:
Sybian is the sex machine, not Symbian.

Don't be technical, it's close enough. It would have been worse if the machine were named after the OS, which is more possible, because the OS came out before the machine.

Quote:
If they want their OS to be named after a real sex machine they’ll name it Solipsism.

Now I KNOW you have a good sense of humor.
post #61 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Nokia is trying to change, so we can say that at least they largely see how they aren't set up for the future. See the conference call transcript at http://seekingalpha.com/article/1493...all-transcript

That's the good news for NOK. The bad news is that they're trying to become user solutions centric, which Apple already is. Nokia's CEO highlighted five key points about the coming transformation of the smartphone market. But while Nokia is just getting started in many of those areas, Apple is already doing four of the five; only lacking in the openness-partnership area (which I believe is overrated).

So this transformation started with the iPhone (though one could argue that iPhone 2.0 software and 3G is the real beginning point). Including this quarter, Apple has sold about 27M phones. However, the current cellphone market has 4B subscriptions, and possibly up to 50% of those subscribers could buy such phones over the next 5 years, so that's 2B potential units to be sold. From that perspective, this market is still in its infancy so Nokia has a chance, but Apple is already out in front in UI, media content, native apps, and device pricing. But there's still 98.6% of the market to go.

Of course, it's not just Apple and Nokia. We can't forget RIM. The first company that has a chance of beating Nokia for the marketshare champ would have to be them. Apple maybe third after Nokia, and then the fun begins.

Will Nokia still be on the way down? Will Apple still be on the way up?

We could have all three jockeying for the lead.
post #62 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

They did a good job fighting QCOM and got a reduced royalty rate... but no longer control the architecture.

Actually, Nokia didn't do a good job at all.

Qualcomm has become the largest mobile telecom equipment maker in the world --- in terms of market cap, it's bigger than Nokia, Siemens, Ericsson, Acatel-Lucent, Motorola, Texas Instrument, Broadcom...

People like to think that GSM "won" over CDMA --- yet Qualcomm somehow becomes the biggest winner of them all.
post #63 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Actually, Nokia didn't do a good job at all.

Qualcomm has become the largest mobile telecom equipment maker in the world --- in terms of market cap, it's bigger than Nokia, Siemens, Ericsson, Acatel-Lucent, Motorola, Texas Instrument, Broadcom...

People like to think that GSM "won" over CDMA --- yet Qualcomm somehow becomes the biggest winner of them all.

GSM has won over CDMA (though CDMA will be around for a vey long time) but remember that Qualcomm holds patents for WCDMA, used in the 3G for GSM-based networks, not to mention their other product offerings. However, they do seem to losing money last time I checked, which isn't too big of a
deal overall, though on this forum we think a company is doomed when they don't have a record breaking year-over-year quarter.
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post #64 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

When the telco tech went from circuit switched networks to IP... guess what happened? Lucent, Nortel, etc that dominated the circuit switches just imploded and the Cisco controls the business. Cisco developed a disruptive tech... and the old companies just got wiped out. BTW, Lucent and Nortel were no light weights either - in their heyday, they had business in cash, huge market caps $100B. Lucent has Bell Labs with experts in every area and even Nobel Prize winners.

Well apart from the fact that Nokia owns half of NSN, which is one of the largest telecommunication solution providers
post #65 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

LOL.

Let's all get along. Even Teckstud likes his iPhone. There just might be a God after all.

Anyway, seriously, Nokia's been asleep at the wheel for years now. This is what they get.

As for Motorola . . . they should just go dark for a year and completely rethink their strategy. Reshuffle management, or bring someone in who knows what they're doing. There's no point in "me too" phone rollouts.

Nokia is copying iPhone. Just look at the n97. Same as iPhone.. white/ black colours, 3.5 inch screen , touchscreen. They have no innovations?
post #66 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Nothing can be forecasted with certainty. However, if Nokia was not capable of building a "...new, robust OS with a focus on UI..." when they were a $120B mkt cap company, I seriously doubt that they can do so as a $50B company.

Cough, cough, Maemo.

Look it up.
post #67 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They may find it difficult to change.

This is the article with the "Motorola minute" in it. It sums up things fairly well

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/17/nok...partner=alerts

That analyst is to Nokia as Rob Enderle is to Apple.

But anyway, here a bigger smackdown to iPhone than I could imagine...
http://communities-dominate.blogs.co...reporting.html
post #68 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

With 3G, Nokia has to pay royalties to others like QCOM. The whole phone has morphed into a portable data platform with a powerful OS like the in the iPhone, plus the apps and the value chain. This kind of change is very disruptive to the existing order and their profits and market cap reflects this reality.

They did a good job fighting QCOM and got a reduced royalty rate... but no longer control the architecture. If they continue in the current path, their phones will be just commodities for low end use here and 3rd world thin margin biz.

When the telco tech went from circuit switched networks to IP... guess what happened? Lucent, Nortel, etc that dominated the circuit switches just imploded and the Cisco controls the business. Cisco developed a disruptive tech... and the old companies just got wiped out. BTW, Lucent and Nortel were no light weights either - in their heyday, they had business in cash, huge market caps $100B. Lucent has Bell Labs with experts in every area and even Nobel Prize winners.

Lucent and Nortel went under because of incompetent management. Cisco didn't have much to do with it. Telecom network still aren't that much IP based, but it is slowly moving there.

And you will also find that Nokia owns a significant amount of those 3G patents. Half the fight with Qualcomm was over who owned more and why anyone should pay Qualcomm when they had so small piece of the pie.
post #69 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning View Post

That analyst is to Nokia as Rob Enderle is to Apple.

But anyway, here a bigger smackdown to iPhone than I could imagine...
http://communities-dominate.blogs.co...reporting.html

1) Are you also jfanning on this forum?

2) The logic in the link you post aounds like Teckstud wrote it as it doesn't actually address the key points of the Forbes article. Honestly, I couldn't be bothered to read any more than the parts stating that a higher megapixel is an innovation when It's
clear how and why
Nokia can offer higher megapixels and better quality images in many of their phones. However, I do agree that Nokia is not a Motorola.
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post #70 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Ard you also jfanning on this forum?

No he isn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

2) The logic in the link you post dounds link Teckstud wrote it. The "innovation" mentioned has nothing to do with megapixels and the lack of video recording in the previous iPhone is well understood by most. I couldn't be bothered to read any more than that, though I agree that Nokia is not Motorola.

If you can't be bother to read good counter arguments, why even comment about the flawed article in the first place.
post #71 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

If you can't be bother to read good counter arguments, why even comment about the flawed article in the first place.

If the first point of a counter argument is how more megapixels equates to "innovation" then the article is, at the very least, poorly written. There is no reason to continue reading at that point as that should be the strongest argument in a tech article.
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post #72 of 272
In the high tech business you have to win your customers over and over again. Every time the leading edge moves forward you must be willing to abandon the current tech and jettison your existing customers then win them back with the new technology. Only Apple seems to know this. Microsoft certainly does not. Neither does Dell. And apparently Nokia doesn't as well.
post #73 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

In the high tech business you have to win your customers over and over again. Every time the leading edge moves forward you must be willing to abandon the current tech and jettison your existing customers then win them back with the new technology. Only Apple seems to know this. Microsoft certainly does not. Neither does Dell. And apparently Nokia doesn't as well.

In MS’s defense, their business model depends on having legacy support. It is crutch for their future, but it’s made them a lot of money and will continue to make them a lot of money. While I love Apple’s business model as a consumer it does not, in any way, work for the majority of corporations. Each system has its pros and cons.
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post #74 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning View Post

That analyst is to Nokia as Rob Enderle is to Apple.

But anyway, here a bigger smackdown to iPhone than I could imagine...
http://communities-dominate.blogs.co...reporting.html

That's your opinion, but the report quoted more than one person.

The page you linked to is totally worthless. They said nothing. They are just Nokia supporters.

I can link to many sites that say the same thing the Forbes site did. They all agree that Nokia is clueless, and losing on all fronts.
Heres one from Bloomberg, do you want more?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a.VGNGiOPNCU
post #75 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

No he isn't



If you can't be bother to read good counter arguments, why even comment about the flawed article in the first place.

That link didn't have good counter arguments.
post #76 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If the first point of a counter argument is how more megapixels equates to "innovation" then the article is, at the very least, poorly written. There is no reason to continue reading at that point as that should be the strongest argument in a tech article.

I read most of it and it's a mess. It's driven by the same brain-dead "har har features list Apple doesn't actually innovate Japan" nonsense which is so much of the reason why Apple has been able to make the inroads they have.

Every other cell phone manufacturer (except, perhaps, Palm, maybe) needs to have a big sign put up in the corporate offices that says "Your OS, UI, and content integration suck, and adding more goddamn "features" and getting pissy when people don't give you props for them won't fix it."

And then all the tech writers that want to grumble about how Apple gets undeserved praise need to get a copy of that sign tattooed on their ass, where it will be clearly visible when their head is in its customary position.

Snarky parsing of who technically did what first so totally, tragically, ignorantly misses the point. Bitching about who has the most pixels on their camera is just a symptom of that point whizzing by, distant and forever out of reach. I'm sure Apple would be happy to continue to compete with people who think they can make an iPhone killer if they just get that bullet list of features long enough, or complain loudly enough that their phone could do stuff long before the IPhone did.

Because consumers really, really care.
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post #77 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

In MS’s defense, their business model depends on having legacy support. It is crutch for their future, but it’s made them a lot of money and will continue to make them a lot of money. While I love Apple’s business model as a consumer it does not, in any way, work for the majority of corporations. Each system has its pros and cons.

Yes it's made them a lot of money but it has also turned Windows into a bloated, resource-hogging, multi-patched monstrosity that everyone complains about and hates so devotedly. Instead of spending billions of dollars trying to develop an OS that is state-of-the-art and yet supports legacy apps (which I will claim is well nigh impossible), MS would have been better off if they built a lean, state-of-the-art OS from the ground up and then use the billions of dollars to subsidize their customers' transition to the new OS. [e.g. Your 5000 seats of Office will no longer work in the new OS but we are upgrading them all for FREE!] Yeah they may squawk but where will they go? Linux? Apple? None of them have the infrastructure to provide adequate support to that many ex-Windows users. And really, it is not a lie to tell those companies that they really will be better off if they stop using WinXP and Win2000 and move to the new OS. Well, assuming that the new OS is built right. Which may be asking too much of MS?
post #78 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

>... need to get a copy of that sign tattooed on their ass, where it will be clearly visible when their head is in its customary position. <
.

What a charming image. NOT!

Cheers for the thoughts, though; spot on!
post #79 of 272
Speaking from the perspective on someone living in the UK, in terms of feature phones, there is almost no reason why anyone sensible would buy NOKIA over Sony Ericsson, as the Sony Ericsson will invariable have nicer industrial design, more features and a smaller price tag.

And Sony Ericsson are in all sorts of trouble at the moment, so it doesn't surprise me NOKIA are feeling the pinch.


After a brief flirtation with Windows Mobile, Sony Ericsson look set to mix their industrial design with the Android Operating System. This will likely put them in a better place product wise than NOKIA. I imagine most people will have seen this phone: The 1GHz processor is the feature highlight.

post #80 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's your opinion, but the report quoted more than one person.

The page you linked to is totally worthless. They said nothing. They are just Nokia supporters.

That comment coming from a bunch of Apple fans, that really makes a big impact

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I can link to many sites that say the same thing the Forbes site did. They all agree that Nokia is clueless, and losing on all fronts.
Heres one from Bloomberg, do you want more?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a.VGNGiOPNCU

Again, quoting yourself, that is just one persons opinion.

To say that Nokia is clueless is very naive, and to go around quoting it says a lot of the knowledge of a company like Nokia around here.

Remember Apple's stock tanked a while back, dropped from $200 down to $60 something. When that happens to Apple, the comment is always "That is happened to the whole market". , this thread hasn't said anything of value, and won't.
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