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Nokia stock nosedives as Apple gains on market leader - Page 3

post #81 of 272
7/18/09 at 2:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That link didn't have good counter arguments.

Acutally it did, but since it contradicts all the "Apple was the first with everything" notion the message won't go far
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post #82 of 272
7/18/09 at 2:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post

Has no one visited that... cough app-store cough.... It looks like something my Grandmother could have done and she'd been dead going on 10 years... At least they can't be accused of copying Apple... That's for sure!!!

D


They have a robot there...hmmm..maybe copying Android?
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Mac Mini 2009
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post #83 of 272
7/18/09 at 3:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We've had these discussions for years here.

Yes, 3G has been around for a while. I remember when it first moved out. But in Europe and Japan, the first big areas to get good coverage, the cell companies had a lot of problems trying to get people to sign up. They simply didn't want to pay for it. In fact that was why messaging was so popular both in Japan and Europeit was cheaper.

So yes, there was good coverage in those places fairly early, but there wasn't great USAGE of it. That's much more recent.

The iPhone did spur heavy use of data services, and that involves mostly 3G. After all, the numbers show that about half of all data usage is from iPhones worldwide. That's been reported in many places. Then there are all the other 3G phones around the world put together getting the other half.

can't be be helped when you have the best damn browser on the iPhone and being best Internet comm. device in general.

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iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

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post #84 of 272
7/18/09 at 4:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Shares of Nokia tumbled this week, as the world's largest handset maker believes its market share will recede over the next year, while competitor Apple sees continued growth with the iPhone platform.

Does anybody know where Sapporobaby is hiding these days?
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post #85 of 272
7/18/09 at 6:03am
The biggest problem with Apple's competitors was the same problem that Apple itself had upon the Big Kahuna's return in the mid-1990s: too much choice. Today, Apple has only five models of laptops: Cheapest, lightest and professional models 13, 15, 17; I defy you to get simpler--customers don't have to agonise; each one is distinct from the other 4 and covers a particular need; sure it would be great to have a 17 screen at all times, but that's an extra 2-3 pounds that most of us don't want to lug around. Ditto with the MBA; it has its down sides, but let's face it, the CD/DVD drive will be gone in 3 years from laptops

Consumers DON'T want to have to figure out minimal differences in configurations, screen size, keyboards megapixels in a phone's camera etc etc. Both Nokia and Sony-E have 60 DIFFERENT phones

You can never achieve economy of scale, never guarantee the desired model is in stock at a particular store, and on top of you overload the customer: customers DON"T want "choice"--they simply want the best product and the most hassle free transition from their old phone to their new one. It couldn't get easier than the iPhone

Henry Ford famously said when he was assembling millions of Model Ts as his competors were going belly up one by one, You can have any colour you want, as long as it's black

SJ can say the same thing 90 years later, but (grudgingly, I suppose) allowed for a white model--which if there's an ongoing heat problem that turns them pink, well, may eventually give way to an all black lineup

So if you go to an O2, or a Carphone Warehouse, there's no thinking about which--there is ONLY ONE MODEL with different sizes; it's surprising that Nok and SE don't realise how much they're losing by having so many models
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post #86 of 272
7/18/09 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsegenmd View Post

... Henry Ford famously said when he was assembling millions of Model Ts as his competors were going belly up one by one, You can have any colour you want, as long as it's black

SJ can say the same thing 90 years later, but (grudgingly, I suppose) allowed for a white model--which if there's an ongoing heat problem that turns them pink, well, may eventually give way to an all black lineup. ...

I totally agree with what you are saying about choice, but your reasoning for the white model is not right.

The reason Apple usually offers white (or plain metal), offerings alongside the black is that Steve Jobs himself (and anyone with a good sense of style, design, etc.) buys those. The black ones are what the average joe wants. This is born out by the sales ratios. At least twice as many people (and sometimes much more), buy black as buy white.

The reason black things sell is that the average joe really doesn't know or care about colour and are buying the product, not the colour. Ford realised this early on and also realise the economies producing things in only one colour could bring. There was also the equivalent of the colourware people operating in those days in that the cars could always be painted after being bought.

What Apple realised is that if you make a real high quality, stylish designed product people will always buy it for the quality, but that most of the buyers don't actually have any idea of what looks good, don't care about colour, and don't feel comfortable buying anything too outlandish. Therefore, the black models.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #87 of 272
7/18/09 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Nothing can be forecasted with certainty. However, if Nokia was not capable of building a "...new, robust OS with a focus on UI..." when they were a $120B mkt cap company, I seriously doubt that they can do so as a $50B company.

Market cap or paper profits never realized means little, when we speak about creative vision. 2b market cap can be enough to create a fine OS that works great, including an excellent app store. The Microsoft like inertia that afflicts many large companies has tied Nokia's hands >too many cooks all pulling in all directions all the while trying to protect there little fiefdoms. Look at GM or Sony, both could not produce in 10 yrs. because of this inertia while the markets left them behind.

In the phone game, time is always there to fix old problems. Every two years anew batch of clients are re-chose there carrier, Nokia is so large, and has so many loyal clients that in a few years they will build out a fine app store and a fine OS/ Nokia will contact google or amazon to fix their app /os problems .

just saying
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whats in a name ? 
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post #88 of 272
7/18/09 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I
What Apple realised is that if you make a real high quality, stylish designed product people will always buy it for the quality, but that most of the buyers don't actually have any idea of what looks good, don't care about colour, and don't feel comfortable buying anything too outlandish. Therefore, the black models.

From ford to apple
from hank to hendrix
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post #89 of 272
7/18/09 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

That comment coming from a bunch of Apple fans, that really makes a big impact



Again, quoting yourself, that is just one persons opinion.

To say that Nokia is clueless is very naive, and to go around quoting it says a lot of the knowledge of a company like Nokia around here.

Remember Apple's stock tanked a while back, dropped from $200 down to $60 something. When that happens to Apple, the comment is always "That is happened to the whole market". , this thread hasn't said anything of value, and won't.

Nokia has inertia, habit and installed user base on its side. That's masking their apparent inability to build a compelling, modern smartphone.

If Nokia is something other than "clueless", where is their competitive smartphone? I don't mean a luxury handset with a lot of pretty buttons or a high pixel count camera, I mean a device that does a great job of integrating hardware and software with an intuitive UI, an OS that can be built out for desktop class apps, and a great way of accessing content and apps?

It's not like the new landscape in smartphones happened overnight-- the iPhone has been around for over two years. A huge, well capitalized company like Nokia, with it's deep knowledge of handset design and manufacturing, can't do better than the N97 after all this time? Why is that anything less than a very public admission of failure?

Some folks are talking like it's not really Nokia's fault that they're saddled with a subpar OS, or that they'll be releasing their "real" iPhone killer any time now, or that things aren't really so bad since their smartphone share hasn't completely collapsed, or that they'll buy Palm or something and then we'll all be sorry.

But none of those those things seem to involve a company that has a clear idea how to proceed. A company that's as good as its fans seem to think it is doesn't release the N97 into this market. A company as good as its fans seem to think it is doesn't shed 20% share of it's most lucrative product catagory in less than a year. That's a company in disarray.

Maybe "clueless" is too harsh, but I'm not seeing anything out of Nokia that strikes me as "well clued", that's for sure.

And for Nokia's fans: you better hope that they don't share your reflexive "to the extent that anyone doesn't agree that Nokia has bragging rights on account of their mighty feature set, it's just because such a person is a hopeless Apple fan boy" rap, because that thinking will kill them dead.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #90 of 272
7/18/09 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsegenmd View Post

The biggest problem with Apple's competitors was the same problem that Apple itself had upon the Big Kahuna's return in the mid-1990s: too much choice.

Henry Ford famously said when he was assembling millions of Model Ts as his competors were going belly up one by one, You can have any colour you want, as long as it's black

SJ can say the same thing 90 years later, but (grudgingly, I suppose) allowed for a white model--which if there's an ongoing heat problem that turns them pink, well, may eventually give way to an all black lineup

So if you go to an O2, or a Carphone Warehouse, there's no thinking about which--there is ONLY ONE MODEL with different sizes; it's surprising that Nok and SE don't realise how much they're losing by having so many models

As the adage goes something like, "The more choices one has, the longer it takes to make a decision."
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post #91 of 272
7/18/09 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsegenmd View Post

Henry Ford famously said when he was assembling millions of Model Ts as his competors were going belly up one by one, You can have any colour you want, as long as it's black

True enough for Henry Ford, but a maxim that doesn't apply to Apple products. The iPhone menu of colors might be Henry Ford-esque, but not for other products. The iPod nano is available in nine (count 'em nine) colors. The first time Apple tried the multicolored scheme, with the iMac, at least one major retailer objected to Apple requiring that they take iMacs in all of the colors.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #92 of 272
7/18/09 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

That comment coming from a bunch of Apple fans, that really makes a big impact

I criticize Apple plenty.

You rushed to support a link to a page that was obviously rushed out by a bunch of Nokia fans. That's ok by you?

And you are not yourself acting as a Nokia fan? Really?


Quote:
Again, quoting yourself, that is just one persons opinion.

Actually, that was the second opinion. And even in the first article I supplied, there were several people quoted.

Quote:
To say that Nokia is clueless is very naive, and to go around quoting it says a lot of the knowledge of a company like Nokia around here.

Remember Apple's stock tanked a while back, dropped from $200 down to $60 something. When that happens to Apple, the comment is always "That is happened to the whole market". , this thread hasn't said anything of value, and won't.

Actually, there are many that are saying this including, and I know this will be a great shock, some of those in Finland.

If you don't find the thread of value, then why are you commenting in it?
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post #93 of 272
7/18/09 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Acutally it did, but since it contradicts all the "Apple was the first with everything" notion the message won't go far

I haven't said that.

But it's not a secret that the iPhone does lead, by far, all others in internet use of 3G. This isn't in question. Do you deny that?

Apple isn't always first. But often they take what is being offered, and make great improvements in usability and desirability. They change the equation.
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post #94 of 272
7/18/09 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Does anybody know where Sapporobaby is hiding these days?

He's locked in a Faraday caged room in the embassy—too many phone calls.
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post #95 of 272
7/18/09 at 12:35pm
New iPod Touch's possibly coming Monday, so says the rumor bird.

Also earnings are coming out for Apple too, should be interesting week.

I think there will be a mixed bag: iPhones up, apps and iTunes sales great, plus iPod Touch released for even more media sales, but Mac sales down, reflecting people's conservative buying lately. (reflective computer screens not helping, as experienced users won't do glare, IMO.)

Apple planned in advance for this, knowing the effects of a post real estate bubble recession and it's effects. Why it pursued selling media and tapping the consumers monthly budget instead of only selling high ticket items.

APPL should go up despite lower than normal Mac sales in my opinion.

If Mac sales are up, then that's a extra bonus!
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #96 of 272
7/18/09 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

New iPod Touch's possibly coming Monday, so says the rumor bird.

Seriously?
Is there a precedent for iPods being introduced in July? In the middle of the back to shcool promotion?
So many questions!
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Progress is a comfortable disease
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post #97 of 272
7/18/09 at 1:08pm
First of all. This isn't attack against AppleInsider or melgross (I just saw that he/she is indeed a moderator with lots of posts and therefore some might think that he is somehow more reliable or something).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Shares of Nokia tumbled this week, as the world's largest handset maker believes its market share will recede over the next year, while competitor Apple sees continued growth with the iPhone platform.

Not true. Nokia said that it probably cannot gain more market share this year (like they had predicted last year) and that their market share will stay pretty much as it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Analysts said that Nokia Oyj would not be able to keep up with Apple without an App Store-like alternative. As a result, Bloomberg said, Nokia's stock took its biggest hit in five years, dropping 15 percent, or $8.6 billion in value.

Nokia has an App Store. Everyone who takes part in this conversation should read the "Silly Silly Forbes: No its not Nokia's "Motorola Moment".. Very poor reporting" article. It is great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

As Nokia loses some ground, Apple continues to lead the industry in year-over-year growth.

Well actually Nokia gained more market share in Q2. Overall 37%->38% and marketshare 38%->41%. IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

To address investor concerns, Nokia announced Thursday its response to the App Store: Symbian Horizon.

Not true. Nokia didn't announce anything. Symbian announced. Nokia is Nokia, Symbian is Symbian. Apple doesn't announce that Google Maps went out of beta and Nokia doesn't announce that Symbian is doing platform for app stores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

As Nokia struggles to retain its stature, a rumor emerged this week that the handset maker could buy rival manufacturer Palm. This as market watchers like Barron's told investors it was time to dump their Nokia stock.

What on earth would Nokia do with Palm? Nothing. Nokia already has Symbian & Maemo & Qt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Saying the sale of Nokia shares is an "easy call," Barron's said the company should be dominating the cell phone market, not losing ground.

I guess gaining market share in Q2 is now "losing ground". Yes, they have lost market share when compared to 2005 or so, but this is business and it's normal that you have ups and downs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't know who told you that, but reviews are saying that the phone is slow, feels slow, is choppy, and is underpowered.

Link me one real review saying this. And no, Gizmodo is a no-go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple abandoned the Arm 11, Palm didn't bother with it for the Pre, but Nokia, for it's latest, most expensive Superphone uses it at about 435 MHz.

That's being said is an insult.

And here it is: wasn't the whole thing about iPhone the fact that it's not the hardware that matters?
Anyone who knows Symbian OS also knows that it is kind of perfect OS for mobile phones because during all years it has become very, very efficient OS. No other OS can match Symbian when it comes to power efficiency. That is why Nokia can put "old" CPU to their flagship Symbian device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The "touch" screen also still relies on a resistive panel. It's said to be insensitive. One reviewer showed a video of him trying to get the thing to respond, and ended up dropping it on to the table in disgust.

So, Engadget is also familiar to you. And the rest of the quote is just unfair: I believe you do know why. You're not lying, congrats. Selective truth ftw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The keyboard is being criticized for having the space "key" at the left side of the keyboard rather than below.

And most of the reviews are actually saying that the position of the space key is actually very good. It is not usually there but it's actually easy to learn and very handy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Also, Symbian now seems to be a paraphrasing of the old Win 3.1 with DOS, rather than a system that's designed to do what it should. at least a couple of reviewers said that Nokia should abandon it, and there are hints that nokia may be looking to Android, or some other Linux based system.

Oh dear. Symbian is old yes, it has its cons. Lots of people say that Nokia should abandon Symbian. The truth is: those people have evidently no idea of whatsoever what actually is Symbian and what is the problem atm. The "problem" is GUI: s60 and Symbian underneath it is perfectly fine. And I believe that when next major releases of Symbian come out (Symbian^*) the UI is revamped.

Hints of Nokia using Android are as stupid as hints of Apple using Windows Mobile.
This "some other Linux based system" is Maemo, which is nothing new. The fact that next release of Maemo will have support for actually calling without VOIP is a new thing. This first next-gen Maemo device is probably announced in early September @ Nokia World.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Read some of the reviews.

I wish you would read too. And with reviews I actually mean reviews (so nothing from Gizmodo, Engadget, etc.). There are actually very high-quality mobile sites throughout the net. Like mobile-review etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The iPhone did spur heavy use of data services, and that involves mostly 3G. After all, the numbers show that about half of all data usage is from iPhones worldwide. That's been reported in many places. Then there are all the other 3G phones around the world put together getting the other half.

The numbers do show that iPhones are used a lot in Web. But did you even once think where the numbers are from and how are they collected? For an example Market Share by Net Applications is well known to be skewed towards US, they have self admitted it. Please don't trust statistics if you don't know anything about the background. I've studied quantitative research and the main thing to know is: don't trust numbers if you don't have all the research material available. And after that is still requires huge amount of analysis to be sure that you can actually try to use gathered information in program like SPSS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We know they're looking at Andriod, and other Linux based OS's.

They are not looking at Android. They have been developing Linux (X.org, Maemo, Mozilla, Webkit, etc.) in the past and today with even bigger resources, but Nokia will never, never release an Android device. Android isn't really even genuine Linux (only the kernel). Of course Nokia R&D are probably doing lots of things and analyzing all available OS's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They have to. While Nokia may not be doomed, for top of the line smartphones, Symbian is doomed.

S60 is doomed. Symbian is nowhere near.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's why their smartphone numbers didn't slide this last quarter.

N97 wasn't even launched globally until July. Only few countries like US got it in Q2 (quite significant change actually for Nokia to start from North America). The reason why Nokia smartphone numbers didn't slide is called the Nokia E-series and Nokia 5800 ExpressMusic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But this phone, for the price, isn't very good, and there's no guarantee that sales will hold up.

You do realize that pretty much everywhere else (outside North America) the N97 is available for free? You can buy it without contract or get it subsidized with big variety of contracts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I can tell you that everywhere we went in London there were N97 ADs. Esp. in the Underground. You were pelted with them on almost every escalator. Nevertheless the iPhone seemed everywhere.

N97 has been available for couple of weeks in the UK.
iPhone quite some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They may find it difficult to change.

This is the article with the "Motorola minute" in it. It sums up things fairly well

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/17/nok...partner=alerts

And finally we get to this great piece of journalism. This "report" is actually sad. It's not sad because it thinks that Nokia is "doomed" but because it's full of proof about the author and authors "knowledge".

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The page you linked to is totally worthless. They said nothing. They are just Nokia supporters.

No it is not. And you saying things like that is just sad. People, please read the articles you're commenting.

First of all: "they". Mr. Tomi Ahonen is one man.
Second thing: he is not a Nokia supporter as you mean it. People who know the industry know also Tomi Ahonen. Apparently you do not know the mobile industry. That kind of sums up the whole thread...

Perhaps you want to try to take a look at this: http://www.tomiahonen.com/biotomi.htm
And after that you should really read the article by Mr. Ahonen. From the start to the end. It's excellent piece and without any bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That link didn't have good counter arguments.

That link did have excellent and well-thought article with lots of good stuff (including few arguments against Forbes' piece).

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You rushed to support a link to a page that was obviously rushed out by a bunch of Nokia fans. That's ok by you?

False. I already talked about this. Look up.

And this why, frankly, my dear melgross, I don't think you should be commenting in a thread which is about mobile technology or Nokia. You may know your stuff around Apple, but as we know Apple isn't the whole industry, no matter how great company it is.
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post #98 of 272
7/18/09 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Does anybody know where Sapporobaby is hiding these days?

Actually I got a email/IM from another user in this forum that said you were asking about me. Been busy with real work but I have time to educate you if you want.

The first thing Nokia needs to do is to clean house. Too many of the old guard left. The fact that there is still a 5 year old war going on between the E-Series guys and the N-Series guys shows that the CEO is useless. Utterly. The N-Series boss is the dude with the power but he needs to go. Nokia is destroying itself from within. They can easily compete technologically with the iPhone (Which is not cutting edge. It is still an iPod that makes calls) by purchasing talent. They have the money. They can buy high-end UI and software guys, match it with their hardware base and they can easily produce competing products. Nokia was on the ropes before and they rebounded. They need to stop the nice-nice and start firing from the inside out. One thing about Apple is that the entire company falls in line with Jobs or whom ever in the leadership role. This is absent from Nokia. Until they get serious, they will lose market share. If you look in the forums, Nokia is not losing just the average Joe, but they are at risk of losing their base. This is their bread and butter. Lose the base, loose the war. Period.

As for the N97. I have one courtesy of a testing project and when compared side by side to a jail-broken but multi-tasking iPhone 3GS, the N97 wins every time. Apple is correct to NEVER let the iPhone multi-task as it is overwhelmed by the OS. Symbian may be old but it can do more than one thing at a time. It terms of opening and using apps, the N97 with its first f/w iteration is not bad. A few stability issues but the coming f/w upgrade will tell the store so I reserve judgment until then.

If memory serves correct, Apple was on the ropes a few years back too but they seemed to have done well. This has to be a forum full of short term memory challenge Republicans. No other reason to explain this myopic view.

P.S. I don't hide. Cowards do. Says something about your choice of words......
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post #99 of 272
7/18/09 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

He's locked in a Faraday caged room in the embassytoo many phone calls.

Shhhhhh...... You are not supposed to know about that....

Here come the black helicopters.....
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post #100 of 272
7/18/09 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Perduel View Post

First of all. This isn't attack against AppleInsider or melgross (I just saw that he/she is indeed a moderator with lots of posts and therefore some might think that he is somehow more reliable or something).



Not true. Nokia said that it probably cannot gain more market share this year (like they had predicted last year) and that their market share will stay pretty much as it is now.


Nokia has an App Store. Everyone who takes part in this conversation should read the "Silly Silly Forbes: No its not Nokia's "Motorola Moment".. Very poor reporting" article. It is great.


Well actually Nokia gained more market share in Q2. Overall 37%->38% and marketshare 38%->41%. IIRC.


Not true. Nokia didn't announce anything. Symbian announced. Nokia is Nokia, Symbian is Symbian. Apple doesn't announce that Google Maps went out of beta and Nokia doesn't announce that Symbian is doing platform for app stores.



What on earth would Nokia do with Palm? Nothing. Nokia already has Symbian & Maemo & Qt.



I guess gaining market share in Q2 is now "losing ground". Yes, they have lost market share when compared to 2005 or so, but this is business and it's normal that you have ups and downs.


Link me one real review saying this. And no, Gizmodo is a no-go.


And here it is: wasn't the whole thing about iPhone the fact that it's not the hardware that matters?
Anyone who knows Symbian OS also knows that it is kind of perfect OS for mobile phones because during all years it has become very, very efficient OS. No other OS can match Symbian when it comes to power efficiency. That is why Nokia can put "old" CPU to their flagship Symbian device.


So, Engadget is also familiar to you. And the rest of the quote is just unfair: I believe you do know why. You're not lying, congrats. Selective truth ftw.


And most of the reviews are actually saying that the position of the space key is actually very good. It is not usually there but it's actually easy to learn and very handy.



Oh dear. Symbian is old yes, it has its cons. Lots of people say that Nokia should abandon Symbian. The truth is: those people have evidently no idea of whatsoever what actually is Symbian and what is the problem atm. The "problem" is GUI: s60 and Symbian underneath it is perfectly fine. And I believe that when next major releases of Symbian come out (Symbian^*) the UI is revamped.

Hints of Nokia using Android are as stupid as hints of Apple using Windows Mobile.
This "some other Linux based system" is Maemo, which is nothing new. The fact that next release of Maemo will have support for actually calling without VOIP is a new thing. This first next-gen Maemo device is probably announced in early September @ Nokia World.


I wish you would read too. And with reviews I actually mean reviews (so nothing from Gizmodo, Engadget, etc.). There are actually very high-quality mobile sites throughout the net. Like mobile-review etc.


The numbers do show that iPhones are used a lot in Web. But did you even once think where the numbers are from and how are they collected? For an example Market Share by Net Applications is well known to be skewed towards US, they have self admitted it. Please don't trust statistics if you don't know anything about the background. I've studied quantitative research and the main thing to know is: don't trust numbers if you don't have all the research material available. And after that is still requires huge amount of analysis to be sure that you can actually try to use gathered information in program like SPSS.



They are not looking at Android. They have been developing Linux (X.org, Maemo, Mozilla, Webkit, etc.) in the past and today with even bigger resources, but Nokia will never, never release an Android device. Android isn't really even genuine Linux (only the kernel). Of course Nokia R&D are probably doing lots of things and analyzing all available OS's.


S60 is doomed. Symbian is nowhere near.


N97 wasn't even launched globally until July. Only few countries like US got it in Q2 (quite significant change actually for Nokia to start from North America). The reason why Nokia smartphone numbers didn't slide is called the Nokia E-series and Nokia 5800 ExpressMusic.


You do realize that pretty much everywhere else (outside North America) the N97 is available for free? You can buy it without contract or get it subsidized with big variety of contracts.


N97 has been available for couple of weeks in the UK.
iPhone quite some time.



And finally we get to this great piece of journalism. This "report" is actually sad. It's not sad because it thinks that Nokia is "doomed" but because it's full of proof about the author and authors "knowledge".


No it is not. And you saying things like that is just sad. People, please read the articles you're commenting.

First of all: "they". Mr. Tomi Ahonen is one man.
Second thing: he is not a Nokia supporter as you mean it. People who know the industry know also Tomi Ahonen. Apparently you do not know the mobile industry. That kind of sums up the whole thread...

Perhaps you want to try to take a look at this: http://www.tomiahonen.com/biotomi.htm
And after that you should really read the article by Mr. Ahonen. From the start to the end. It's excellent piece and without any bias.



That link did have excellent and well-thought article with lots of good stuff (including few arguments against Forbes' piece).



False. I already talked about this. Look up.

And this why, frankly, my dear melgross, I don't think you should be commenting in a thread which is about mobile technology or Nokia. You may know your stuff around Apple, but as we know Apple isn't the whole industry, no matter how great company it is.

YIPES !!!!!!!!!!!

ROFLMAOWACHFTVIMNP = Rolling on floor laughing my ass off with a cerebral hemorrhage from the vein in my neck popping.
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post #101 of 272
7/18/09 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Perduel View Post

Link me one real review saying this. And no, Gizmodo is a no-go.

First of all, I'm not going to respond to your remarks about the AI article because your post is already much too fractionated. Please try to not respond to every sentence individually. Thank you.

Now, you have no right to dismiss reviews that you don't like, from publications that you don't like. I might as well dismiss reviews from those you do like, that say what you want them to say. Your attitude makes no sense. These pubications' reviews are as good, or even better than some of the ones you might like. And you didn't bother to link to any reviews at all to counter them.

http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews...n97/10344.html

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/...ia-n97-review/

http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/...-33421200.html

http://www.livemint.com/2009/06/1922...Nokia-N97.html

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2350137,00.asp

These are just a few from the top of the saved pages list of N97 reviews I have. It's an unbiased listing for you. I didn't even link to the ones you don't like.

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And here it is: wasn't the whole thing about iPhone the fact that it's not the hardware that matters?
Anyone who knows Symbian OS also knows that it is kind of perfect OS for mobile phones because during all years it has become very, very efficient OS. No other OS can match Symbian when it comes to power efficiency. That is why Nokia can put "old" CPU to their flagship Symbian device.

It's both. But why would Nokia use an older processor that Apple abandoned? A lot of people are questioning that move.

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So, Engadget is also familiar to you. And the rest of the quote is just unfair: I believe you do know why. You're not lying, congrats. Selective truth ftw.

It's not unfair. You just don't like it. If I quoted something you did like, you wouldn't have said that it was unfair, you would have used it to support your own views.

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And most of the reviews are actually saying that the position of the space key is actually very good. It is not usually there but it's actually easy to learn and very handy.

I haven't read that. The best I've seen is that people were, in some cases, surprised that the odd location wasn't a problem for them. But others found it to be a problem.

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Oh dear. Symbian is old yes, it has its cons. Lots of people say that Nokia should abandon Symbian. The truth is: those people have evidently no idea of whatsoever what actually is Symbian and what is the problem atm. The "problem" is GUI: s60 and Symbian underneath it is perfectly fine. And I believe that when next major releases of Symbian come out (Symbian^*) the UI is revamped.

This again is your opinion. Most other opinions disagree. You claim to have "special" knowledge that others don't, and so can see more clearly?

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Hints of Nokia using Android are as stupid as hints of Apple using Windows Mobile.
This "some other Linux based system" is Maemo, which is nothing new. The fact that next release of Maemo will have support for actually calling without VOIP is a new thing. This first next-gen Maemo device is probably announced in early September @ Nokia World.

I do think the idea of them using Win Mobile is farfetched. Android isn't as farfetched. Maemo isn't something that is anywhere near ready. It's a cypher right now.

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I wish you would read too. And with reviews I actually mean reviews (so nothing from Gizmodo, Engadget, etc.). There are actually very high-quality mobile sites throughout the net. Like mobile-review etc.

I've read over ten reviews so far. Some from phone sites. I've not seen one review where the phone is thought to be the equal of the 3GS in any way, or, for that matter, the Pre, as far as the OS goes.

Here's a review from a well respected PHONE site. Since the review isn't five stars, you will probably say that the site isn't very good.

http://www.phonescoop.com/articles/article.php?a=284

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The numbers do show that iPhones are used a lot in Web. But did you even once think where the numbers are from and how are they collected? For an example Market Share by Net Applications is well known to be skewed towards US, they have self admitted it. Please don't trust statistics if you don't know anything about the background. I've studied quantitative research and the main thing to know is: don't trust numbers if you don't have all the research material available. And after that is still requires huge amount of analysis to be sure that you can actually try to use gathered information in program like SPSS.

Oh please! You just want the facts to go your way. They don't. Just give it up. If the facts had shown otherwise, you would be quoting them.

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They are not looking at Android. They have been developing Linux (X.org, Maemo, Mozilla, Webkit, etc.) in the past and today with even bigger resources, but Nokia will never, never release an Android device. Android isn't really even genuine Linux (only the kernel). Of course Nokia R&D are probably doing lots of things and analyzing all available OS's.

I'm just reporting what I've read in a few places. I'm not saying it will happen. Nokia denies it. Maybe that means something, and maybe it doesn't.

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S60 is doomed. Symbian is nowhere near.

That's your opinion.

Quote:
N97 wasn't even launched globally until July. Only few countries like US got it in Q2 (quite significant change actually for Nokia to start from North America). The reason why Nokia smartphone numbers didn't slide is called the Nokia E-series and Nokia 5800 ExpressMusic.

The 5800 numbers are good, but not what they were in the beginning, which isn't unusual. No phone does as well months later. But the Nokia sold 500,000 N97's in the month it's been out. Or at least they shipped that number to distributers, as that's the way most companies count sales.

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You do realize that pretty much everywhere else (outside North America) the N97 is available for free? You can buy it without contract or get it subsidized with big variety of contracts.

Yes. The subsidies are high. but you're paying for it through your contract. But as people from Europe always delight in telling us, they like buying their phones, and they have so many of them.

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N97 has been available for couple of weeks in the UK.
iPhone quite some time.

I started seeing iPhones in New York right after they want on sale two years ago.

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And finally we get to this great piece of journalism. This "report" is actually sad. It's not sad because it thinks that Nokia is "doomed" but because it's full of proof about the author and authors "knowledge".

It's only sad to Nokia fans. There are several more that say about the same thing. I posted one from Bloomberg.

I know the "Motorola moment" hasn't gone down well with Nokia people, but it's just an expression. It shouldn't frighten you so.

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No it is not. And you saying things like that is just sad. People, please read the articles you're commenting.

First of all: "they". Mr. Tomi Ahonen is one man.
Second thing: he is not a Nokia supporter as you mean it. People who know the industry know also Tomi Ahonen. Apparently you do not know the mobile industry. That kind of sums up the whole thread...

Really? Could have fooled me. Why don't you explain then, as you seen to be saying that you know the industry.

Quote:
Perhaps you want to try to take a look at this: http://www.tomiahonen.com/biotomi.htm
And after that you should really read the article by Mr. Ahonen. From the start to the end. It's excellent piece and without any bias.


False. I already talked about this. Look up.

And this why, frankly, my dear melgross, I don't think you should be commenting in a thread which is about mobile technology or Nokia. You may know your stuff around Apple, but as we know Apple isn't the whole industry, no matter how great company it is.

I read his bio. He's done a lot of work for Nokia, hasn't he? The only phone MANUFACTURER he's worked for. Isn't that coincidental?

Perhaps you shouldn't be commenting here, as you haven't contributed anything new.

The only link supports the concept that this guy is a Nokia supporter. If fact, it supports the view that he's protecting his business interests.

You haven't bothered to give any other links to articles that say the opposite to what every article in financial publications, phone publications, and computer publications have been saying; Nokia is in trouble.

You also haven't provided links to the reviews you like so much.

Please do both, and then my dear Eric, we can have a more realistic, and balanced view.
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post #102 of 272
7/18/09 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Seriously?
Is there a precedent for iPods being introduced in July? In the middle of the back to school promotion?
So many questions!

The last three years they would wait until September to announce new iPods, clearing out the old with the bts promotion, but Mac sales are down due to the economy so they might be throwing the new hotness iPod in with certain Mac sales.

After all Apple is making a killing off the app sales, especially games. Kids are hooked. Third party developers are chomping at the bit to get a piece of that back to school action $$.

The holiday buying season is going to be all about necessities this year, I'm betting hard on it.

IMO of course, I really don't know anything, but I like to guess and hope I'm right.
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #103 of 272
7/18/09 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I read his bio. He's done a lot of work for Nokia, hasn't he? The only phone MANUFACTURER he's worked for. Isn't that coincidental?
...
The only link supports the concept that this guy is a Nokia supporter. If fact, it supports the view that he's protecting his business interests.

Ahonen did use to work for Nokia, but hasn't for a long time, so I don't there is any business interest to support. He was also a Mac trainer (working for an Apple-related company but not Apple itself) before that and has "evangelized" OS X.

Having read his blog as well as his books for the last couple of years, I don't believe he has any intentional bias for Nokia, or against Apple. As he has written, cell phone history will be forever seen as two eras, BI and AI, or Before-iPhone and After-iPhone. So he does recognize to some degree the transformation that iPhone has caused.

He thoroughly knows the cellular market, in particular outside of the US, so there is much that he says that's worth mulling over (if you can get beyond his long-windedness and his bold assertions). He's very open to being questioned on his blog and always responds with lightheartedness, usually with real examples of what's been tried.

That said, he's been part of the cellular industry for a long time. So I think he does have blind spots about some things that were tried before and failed, but that Apple is trying again and succeeding - such as the value of Apps, location-based services, the critical importance of the UI, and the value of OS software updates. I think Apple has shaken the "thinking" about such things, but it's hard to fully understand how Apple has been able to do it. It is often very hard to put a finger on exactly what is the Apple special sauce, and I think he too often misses it.

For example, he believes the key hindrance to iPhone market growth now is Apple's annual model release schedule, because the industry releases new model variations every quarter and that's what people (primarily outside the US) have been trained to follow. The data to date supports him. But I think Apple can blow up the status quo because the iPhone does carry a lasting status, and Apple could instead release significant OS updates twice a year (instead of new hardware). Apple hasn't really done so yet because I think Apple is not in a rush (Apple works at a steady pace that suits the company), but I think it could when it's ready.
"you will know the truth, and the truth will
set you free."
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"you will know the truth, and the truth will
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post #104 of 272
7/18/09 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

For example, he believes the key hindrance to iPhone market growth now is Apple's annual model release schedule, because the industry releases new model variations every quarter and that's what people (primarily outside the US) have been trained to follow. The data supports him. But I think Apple can blow up the status quo because the iPhone does carry a lasting status, and Apple could instead release significant OS updates twice a year (instead of new hardware). It hasn't yet really done so, but I think it could.

Great point. It has been debated in several Nokia forums that they should offer a migration path of some sort with their phones and OS's. The N82 is still arguably one of the best phones Nokia has ever released. Xenon flash, great camera, music player, etc.... but limited with Feature Pack 1. If Nokia were smart, they would offer Feature Pack 2 for say 150 as much of the hardware is the same. I am not a "fan" as many are blind fanboys in this forum but I do appreciate Nokia products as well as those from Apple. My money is loyal only to the best bang for the buck.
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post #105 of 272
7/18/09 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Ahonen did use to work for Nokia, but hasn't for a long time, so I don't there is any business interest to support. He was also a Mac trainer (working for an Apple-related company but not Apple itself) before that and has "evangelized" OS X.

Having read his blog as well as his books for the last couple of years, I don't believe he has any intentional bias for Nokia, or against Apple. As he has written, cell phone history will be forever seen as two eras, BI and AI, or Before-iPhone and After-iPhone. So he does recognize to some degree the transformation that iPhone has caused.

He thoroughly knows the cellular market, in particular outside of the US, so there is much that he says that's worth mulling over (if you can get beyond his long-windedness and his bold assertions). He's very open to being questioned on his blog and always responds with lightheartedness, usually with real examples of what's been tried.

That said, he's been part of the cellular industry for a long time. So I think he does have blind spots about some things that were tried before and failed, but that Apple is trying again and succeeding - such as the value of Apps, location-based services, the critical importance of the UI, and the value of OS software updates. I think Apple has shaken the "thinking" about such things, but it's hard to fully understand how Apple has been able to do it. It is often very hard to put a finger on exactly what is the Apple special sauce, and I think he too often misses it.

For example, he believes the key hindrance to iPhone market growth now is Apple's annual model release schedule, because the industry releases new model variations every quarter and that's what people (primarily outside the US) have been trained to follow. The data to date supports him. But I think Apple can blow up the status quo because the iPhone does carry a lasting status, and Apple could instead release significant OS updates twice a year (instead of new hardware). Apple hasn't really done so yet because I think Apple is not in a rush (Apple works at a steady pace that suits the company), but I think it could when it's ready.

Its interesting though that he has, and you don't know if he still is. After all, his own bio says that he gives advice that can't be spoken about. Oooh!

But from being in business a long time I can tell you that there are a lot of high prices "academics" who have written books, given seminars and such who are paid high fees to give business advice which then falls flat, because they really don't know nearly as much about the real world of business as one might think, looking at their published career.

It's therefor very possible that he's given advice to Nokia and others that's now falling flat, and he's just trying to show that his advice wasn't wrong. Otherwise who els will hire him from now on?

The point is that I'm not overly impressed, and as has been stated about the other article (though there are a awful lot of articles just like that one), he's just one guy. When his statements are so different from everyone else's, you have to wonder if he's the one making the mistakes.

So much for him.

It's pretty obvious that Nokia's been making mistakes. They've had two years to come up with something new, and they haven't. Their store is the only thing that's new, and it's obviously been rushed.

It surely seems that after Apple came out with the app store that Nokia and others waited to see how well it would go before starting on their own. This has given them a shortened timescale to respond. Nokia's store is a prime example of that.
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post #106 of 272
7/18/09 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And you are not yourself acting as a Nokia fan? Really?

No, I own a Nokia phone, so what? I also own several Macs, and a few iPods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If you don't find the thread of value, then why are you commenting in it?

Because I dislike the blatant dis-truths spread in this thread.

The only comeback they have in this thread is the mp of the camera, to which, if you had read the linked page is a useless argruement as just about everyother phone manufacturer has been providing large mp cameras on their phonees for years.

And what is Apples great innovation they bring to the iPhone 3GS....

MMS, gee thanks Apple, way to catch up with 2002
Video Capture, my Nokia 7650 had that over 5 years ago.
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post #107 of 272
7/18/09 at 5:03pm
More on Tomi:

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...good_rolli.php
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post #108 of 272
7/18/09 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Its interesting though that he has, and you don't know if he still is. After all, his own bio says that he gives advice that can't be spoken about. Oooh!

Melgross are you really going to try to use this as an argument? There is such a thing as an NDA, Confidentiality agreement, etc...Weak....

Quote:
But from being in business a long time I can tell you that there are a lot of high prices "academics" who have written books, given seminars and such who are paid high fees to give business advice which then falls flat, because they really don't know nearly as much about the real world of business as one might think, looking at their published career.

Interesting but when Walt Mosberg or Shaw Wu mentions anything, it is immediately perceived as the Gospel. Double Standard comes to mind.

Quote:
It's therefor very possible that he's given advice to Nokia and others that's now falling flat, and he's just trying to show that his advice wasn't wrong. Otherwise who els will hire him from now on?

Did I mention Walt Mosberg and Shaw Wu?

Quote:
The point is that I'm not overly impressed, and as has been stated about the other article (though there are a awful lot of articles just like that one), he's just one guy. When his statements are so different from everyone else's, you have to wonder if he's the one making the mistakes.

As an American that has lived in much of Europe, the Mid East, Gulf, and few other places thrown in, it is very easy to see how the US media are more than happy to sell their journalistic integrity for a price, for access, or anything of immediate value. Does the Iraq-a-palooza come to mind?

[Quote}So much for him.[/Quote]

Universal translation: I do not agree with him and my opinion is the only one that counts.....

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It's pretty obvious that Nokia's been making mistakes. They've had two years to come up with something new, and they haven't. Their store is the only thing that's new, and it's obviously been rushed.

Name one company that has not made mistakes. Funny how the iBoys are quick to forget that Apple was one paycheck away from being a has been. Things and people fall out of favor all the time.

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It surely seems that after Apple came out with the app store that Nokia and others waited to see how well it would go before starting on their own. This has given them a shortened timescale to respond. Nokia's store is a prime example of that.

And this is wrong why? Are we forgetting that Apple is looking at the market to see if netbooks or tablets will be a big ticket item? Or is it okay because Apple does it?

By the way, before I get branded a Nokia lover, I also will take delivery of an iPhone in a few days. Fair and balanced.
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post #109 of 272
7/18/09 at 5:37pm
Nokia's smartphone marketshare:

Q2 2008: 41%
Q1 2009: 38%
Q2 2009: 41%

Take home message: Nokia maintained/increased marketshare despite the introduction of the iPhone 3GS and Palm Pre.

Not bad for a doomed company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Insider

Nokia stock nosedives as Apple gains on market leader

I assume AI will amend the headline now that it's proven to be false?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

This again is your opinion. Most other opinions disagree. You claim to have "special" knowledge that others don't, and so can see more clearly?

Having developed for Symbian (and WinMo and Android), I agree with his position. Symbian itself isn't the problem - it's Nokia's retarded UI. The base OS is actually pretty good - and newer than the Linux/BSD foundations of other platforms.

Do you really think that Nokia should waste massive resources moving to a different OS when they'll still slap their junk UI over the top of it anyway? What problem does that solve exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

It's both. But why would Nokia use an older processor that Apple abandoned? A lot of people are questioning that move.

Apple has abandoned the ARM 11 core? Apple's website disagrees with you. The 8GB model still uses an ARM 11 core.


This article on AI is pretty shitty but its no more shitty than most of the other pieces of Nokia "analysis" floating about on the internet. They ignore the facts (profits, market share and smartphone market share all up from Q1) and instead peddle the same myth that Nokia is doomed. It's lazy journalism. The problem is that most commentators live in the US so they don't have first-hand experience with Nokia's products and they don't understand the rock star status of the brand in the rest of the world.
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post #110 of 272
7/18/09 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Its interesting though that he has, and you don't know if he still is. After all, his own bio says that he gives advice that can't be spoken about. Oooh!

But from being in business a long time I can tell you that there are a lot of high prices "academics" who have written books, given seminars and such who are paid high fees to give business advice which then falls flat, because they really don't know nearly as much about the real world of business as one might think, looking at their published career.

It's therefor very possible that he's given advice to Nokia and others that's now falling flat, and he's just trying to show that his advice wasn't wrong. Otherwise who els will hire him from now on?

The point is that I'm not overly impressed, and as has been stated about the other article (though there are a awful lot of articles just like that one), he's just one guy. When his statements are so different from everyone else's, you have to wonder if he's the one making the mistakes.

Yes, it's possible that he's defending advice that he's given. Though he's just one guy. he is an acknowledged expert by those in the industry. And of course, all those in the industry could be wrong (the industry being insular).

Going back to the beginning here, the Forbes article was poorly written. Ahonen was correctly defending Nokia's string of innovations over the past 10 years. However, although Ahonen recognizes this as the new iPhone era, he doesn't recognize that Apple's innovation could be so super-disruptive that Nokia won't be able to hold on.

Quote:
It's pretty obvious that Nokia's been making mistakes. They've had two years to come up with something new, and they haven't. Their store is the only thing that's new, and it's obviously been rushed.

It surely seems that after Apple came out with the app store that Nokia and others waited to see how well it would go before starting on their own. This has given them a shortened timescale to respond. Nokia's store is a prime example of that.

I agree. As I said, Nokia's CC indicates they began to realize the need to change in 2008; too late for the N97. But can they change the culture of such a large company? They talk about being "solutions-centric" and "user experience". But is that really all that's needed? Apple is great at zigging and zagging, i.e., consistently changing the focus of what's important. Apple may be focusing attention on Apps right now, but what surprises are next? What's more important is how does Nokia get ahead of Apple.
"you will know the truth, and the truth will
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"you will know the truth, and the truth will
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post #111 of 272
7/18/09 at 6:10pm
Lots of iDiots here.

Nokia simply missed the touch screen revolution, which the LG Prada started, but with the 5800 and now the N97 they are right back in the game, and their marketshare growth reflects this. They are planning to increase their range of touch screen phones a lot (with a new cheaper version if the 5800 for example, which is already selling 1 million a month, and with the N97 best sellers on Vodafone UK ) and due to their huge economies of scale continue to dominate the smartphone market.

These articles are hilarious, especially in the way they imply a cause and effect and also zero sum game between Apple's tiny increase in market share and Nokia's past losses.

If Steve Jobs peed in the ocean the people here would claim he made the tide come in!

Why dont the iDiots explain why Apple cant unseat even RIM, who have the oldest and ugliest UI in the world, the slowest and poorest browser, and their best sellers dont even have touch screens! You have to get past number 2 before you can take on number 1...
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post #112 of 272
7/18/09 at 6:11pm
What Apple primarily brought with the iPhone 3 OS is a intuitive and easy use interface. You may mock the 3GS video, but Youtube reported a 400% incease because of the 3GS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

MMS, gee thanks Apple, way to catch up with 2002
Video Capture, my Nokia 7650 had that over 5 years ago.
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post #113 of 272
7/18/09 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Nokia's smartphone marketshare:

Q2 2008: 41%
Q1 2009: 38%
Q2 2009: 41%

Take home message: Nokia maintained/increased marketshare despite the introduction of the iPhone 3GS and Palm Pre.

Not bad for a doomed company.

Let's look at the bigger picture:
Q4 2004: 63% (Nokia high point when "smartphone market" was just 8m units).
Q2 2007 (iPhone release): 51%, followed by 50%, 47%, 44%, 41%, 35%, 31% in Q4 2008.

Finally, in Q1 2009, Nokia bounces back to 38% with the release of the 5800 Expressmusic phones (initial release in Oct in UK, Feb09 release in US). The 5800 has dropped in price from $399 in Feb to $299 unlocked today. Nokia's sold 6.8m 5800 cumulative since release. (In specs, the 5800 matches up very well with iPhone, but with a much smaller App Store. Specs aren't everything when it comes to Apple.)

Meanwhile, Nokia's premium N-series phones have dropped from 11.4m units in Q4 2007 to 4.6m units in Q2 2009, while its E-series phones have increased from 2.1m to 4.7m units as E-series with qwerty keyboard is popular with business and for heavy SMSers. (E71 is $500 unlocked; E71x is free with AT&T contract at Amazon, saves $400).

Conclusion: Nokia was bleeding heavily in the smartphone market but has finally turned it around (except I think it's still in trouble in the US.)
"you will know the truth, and the truth will
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"you will know the truth, and the truth will
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post #114 of 272
7/18/09 at 7:23pm
I don't want to comment on anything that has been said here, but one thing that makes Apple unique is its eco-system. No other company has the luxury of a successful computer OS that can be adapted to work in a phone. What other company has 100% influence on both the hardware and the software in their phone? I believe that this is the power of Apple and it shows.
Nokia can do what they want, they have to make their phone compatible with (crappy) Windows OS, and just so it works, with XP, Vista and Windows 7. Oh, and it has to work on an Acer, a Dell, an HP, a Sony and a dozen other brands. (Note that I didn't include Apple.)
Apple's iTunes, the ease of installing apps, the simplicity of the system will be hard to match, let alone to beat. And that's why Apple is a leader, and all others, Nokia included, need to find the holy grail to catch up, but in all honesty, can they ever?
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post #115 of 272
7/18/09 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by surur View Post

Lots of iDiots here.

Nokia simply missed the touch screen revolution, which the LG Prada started...

Now that's hilarious...

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Why dont the iDiots explain why Apple cant unseat even RIM, who have the oldest and ugliest UI in the world, the slowest and poorest browser, and their best sellers dont even have touch screens! You have to get past number 2 before you can take on number 1...

Ahonen's explanation is that SMS has been and still is the biggest (and most lucrative) App in the world and it's catching up in the US. For now, SMS is more important than Internet for most. And SMSers want to operate with no-look one-handed physical keyboard. So BB capturing most of them in US, while Nokia doing so in rest of QWERTY-using world. And I think he's right about that. (btw, some think Pre can compete with BB in this space.)

Open question to debate is: Will internet access (web-based services) and native apps (such as gaming) become more important than SMS in the future?

Another perspective: Anything + computer = computer. In other words, when computer added functionality, we still called it computer. It's also true that anything + phone = phone. In other words, when phone added music player, we still think of it first as phone. When phone added GPS, we still think of it first as phone. Apple clearly saw this; that's why they went so hard after the trademark for "iPhone." (Definition: A phone is a device that provides reachability (voice, SMS, IM, email, etc) even when it is in its "off" or "sleep" state, i.e., in your pocket.)

The question Ahonen asks, is what is the answer to computer + phone? Will we think phone? Or computer? I think Apple thinks we'll think phone.

And that's why I think Microsoft and the PC makers are the ones that will see a shrinking market over time, as computing power is added to the phone. I really thought MS invested in Zune (and dissed their partners) because they saw this, but having watched what's happened since, I'm doubting it.

Added: I own a 32GB iPhone 3GS and MacBook Pro and love both.
"you will know the truth, and the truth will
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"you will know the truth, and the truth will
set you free."
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post #116 of 272
7/18/09 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

No, I own a Nokia phone, so what? I also own several Macs, and a few iPods.



Because I dislike the blatant dis-truths spread in this thread.

The only comeback they have in this thread is the mp of the camera, to which, if you had read the linked page is a useless argruement as just about everyother phone manufacturer has been providing large mp cameras on their phonees for years.

And what is Apples great innovation they bring to the iPhone 3GS....

MMS, gee thanks Apple, way to catch up with 2002
Video Capture, my Nokia 7650 had that over 5 years ago.

I don't agree with you about the untruths. so far, there's been one defender, and plenty detractors of Nokia's current performance. Even Nokia seems concerned.

Look, frankly, I don't want to see Nokia have major problems. I've been saying, and Saporrobaby can confirm, I've said constantly that Nokia will remain one of the major suppliers of smartphones, we just don't know if it will remain number one or not.

But they are in trouble.
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post #117 of 272
7/18/09 at 8:31pm
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Originally Posted by Eric Perduel View Post

First of all. This isn't attack against AppleInsider or melgross ........ this why, frankly, my dear melgross, I don't think you should be commenting in a thread which is about mobile technology or Nokia. You may know your stuff around Apple, but as we know Apple isn't the whole industry, no matter how great company it is.

Wow. Eric, please restore my faith in humanity and tell me, in all honesty, that you don't work for (or are affiliated with) Nokia.
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post #118 of 272
7/18/09 at 8:34pm
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Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Melgross are you really going to try to use this as an argument? There is such a thing as an NDA, Confidentiality agreement, etc...Weak....

I'm aware of that. I've signed more of them then I care to remember. It's just the way it was written in the bio. It sounded as though it was all so very hush hush. They could have worded it better.

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Interesting but when Walt Mosberg or Shaw Wu mentions anything, it is immediately perceived as the Gospel. Double Standard comes to mind.


Did I mention Walt Mosberg and Shaw Wu?

We're talking about a very different type of person and job. Have you done consulting, because I have. If you give advice, and it's taken, it better be right. I not, your reputation goes down very quickly. If it's publicly disdained, as would be the case if Nokia's direction was advised by him, then that could be a disaster.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but I don't think his defense of Nokia was very good. It did look to me to be defensive in nature.

Mossbery is a technology writer, who reviews products. If he advises companies on his own time, then that's something we don't know, and I think it would be a conflict of interest.

Wu is a financial analyst. Thats also very different. He's also not on his own, but works at the company he reports for. He doesn't advise companies on technical matters, or business direction.

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As an American that has lived in much of Europe, the Mid East, Gulf, and few other places thrown in, it is very easy to see how the US media are more than happy to sell their journalistic integrity for a price, for access, or anything of immediate value. Does the Iraq-a-palooza come to mind?

I've seen that in all areas of the world. Many times it's much worse. Many countries have official Tv, radio, newspaper and magazine outlets of their own. We have the Congressional Record.

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"So much for him."

Universal translation: I do not agree with him and my opinion is the only one that counts.....

No. The point is that he was placed up on a pedestal. he doesn't belong there.

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It's pretty obvious that Nokia's been making mistakes. They've had two years to come up with something new, and they haven't. Their store is the only thing that's new, and it's obviously been rushed.

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Name one company that has not made mistakes. Funny how the iBoys are quick to forget that Apple was one paycheck away from being a has been. Things and people fall out of favor all the time.

Every company makes mistakes. But right now, it's Nokia that might lose the ballgame. What's happened in the past to Apple or anyone else doesn't matter here. Nokia is a separate company. What they choose to do has nothing to do with what Apple did years ago.

If you want to bring up Apple as a comeback kid, then it was also very fair for him in the article to say that Nokia was having a "Motorola moment". Nokia may not be the next Apple, they may also be the next Motorola. We have to remember that it can go either way.

You know that from our past talks I think that Nokia will stay in the game. But every year that they fail to keep up makes that possibility less clear.

What the various articles are saying is that Nokia is slipping badly. They have to make it up. They can't take another two or three years. It may be too late.

What they question is the culture. You know how often a company's culture determines how they react to situations. Maybe what Nokia needs is new leadership. Apple got that. Motorola didn't. We can see how they both turned out.

Which way will Nokia go?


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"It surely seems that after Apple came out with the app store that Nokia and others waited to see how well it would go before starting on their own. This has given them a shortened timescale to respond. Nokia's store is a prime example of that."


And this is wrong why? Are we forgetting that Apple is looking at the market to see if netbooks or tablets will be a big ticket item? Or is it okay because Apple does it?

I said why there. It's given them much less time to respond. Now they think they must do it quickly. Since coming up with a good model for this takes time, the software takes time, and putting it into place takes time, its difficult to do a good job in just a few months.

If I were still in business, I would have reacted more quickly. I was saying right after Apple opened the App Store that other companies would have to get on the ball quickly or they would have problems matching the quality of Apples'.

I was right. The other stores, so far, have all been criticized for the way they work.

A store for apps which delivers products over the internet in an easy to understand way that also has seamless product purchasing is very difficult to do.

Look at the criticism being given. I'm not the only one saying this. Tell me one other app store that has been given good reviews when compared to Apples'. Not one so far.

As far as a possible tablet/netbook thingie by Apple goes, well, we'll see. Remember that all the phone manufacturers, including Nokia put down the idea of Apple building a successful phone. What happened?

This is part of that culture and leadership thing I mentioned before. Right now, Apple's got it. But they have flops too. Remember the Cube?

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By the way, before I get branded a Nokia lover, I also will take delivery of an iPhone in a few days. Fair and balanced.

I know who you are. That's why we can usually have sane discussions.

By the way. If you want to quote me so that my comment remains in the post, you can't use the beginning and end of quote statements. It screws up the quoting. Just use " ". It took a while to fix it.
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post #119 of 272
7/18/09 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Nokia's smartphone marketshare:

Q2 2008: 41%
Q1 2009: 38%
Q2 2009: 41%

Take home message: Nokia maintained/increased marketshare despite the introduction of the iPhone 3GS and Palm Pre.

Not bad for a doomed company.

I don't know where you got those numbers from, but the Bloomberg report I linked to shows that Q2 2008, Nokia had a 45.1% smartphone marketshare. Not the 41% you show. That's a drop of 4 points. Quarter to quarter is more difficult to tell because companies come out with new phones so a short period tells us less, unless it's a steady trend.

During the same period, Apple doubled it's marketshare to 10.8%. So the report is correct all along. Apple is quickly gaining on a falling Nokia.

Rim is gaining as well, and has about a 22% marketshare.

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I assume AI will amend the headline now that it's proven to be false?

Since the headine is correct, there's no reason to change it.

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Having developed for Symbian (and WinMo and Android), I agree with his position. Symbian itself isn't the problem - it's Nokia's retarded UI. The base OS is actually pretty good - and newer than the Linux/BSD foundations of other platforms.

If you think that Symbian can handle all the new media and GUI demands that it's being asked to manage, something that it wasn't designed for, then that's good. But age isn't a determinant of quality, or suitableness.


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Do you really think that Nokia should waste massive resources moving to a different OS when they'll still slap their junk UI over the top of it anyway? What problem does that solve exactly?

They have already done so with their new system, Maemo, that will be coming out sometime.

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Apple has abandoned the ARM 11 core? Apple's website disagrees with you. The 8GB model still uses an ARM 11 core.

I'm sure you know what I meant. The 3G price was dropped to $99 here. It's still the same phone The new phones have dropped it.

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This article on AI is pretty shitty but its no more shitty than most of the other pieces of Nokia "analysis" floating about on the internet. They ignore the facts (profits, market share and smartphone market share all up from Q1) and instead peddle the same myth that Nokia is doomed. It's lazy journalism. The problem is that most commentators live in the US so they don't have first-hand experience with Nokia's products and they don't understand the rock star status of the brand in the rest of the world.

It's interesting that because the analysis is negative, that it's thought to be shitty. If it was positive, then it wouldn't be?

So if the analysis was that even though marketshare for both cheap phones and smartphones are showing year to year drops, and profits plunged again, it means nothing?

Tell us what it means.
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post #120 of 272
7/18/09 at 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What Apple primarily brought with the iPhone 3 OS is a intuitive and easy use interface. You may mock the 3GS video, but Youtube reported a 400% incease because of the 3GS.

I thought they were meant to have brought that with the original iPhone OS?

Also, judging by the majority of videos available on youTube, how many of those additional videos are of anything useful?
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