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Worker commits suicide after iPhone prototype goes missing - reports - Page 4

post #121 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjoec123 View Post

The real question is not whether or not Apple is to blame for this guy's death. It obviously isn't. The question is, how will Apple react to Foxconn's obviously over-the-top methods of keeping company secrets?

The decent thing, which happens to be the best marketing solution as well, is to immediately halt all business with Foxconn and pick another manufacturer for iPhones. That may cause shortages for a while, but it would be worth it. Who is going to argue that they can't get an iPhone when the reason they can't is that Apple cares about the people who make them? It's a win-win for everyone. China gets a message that this sort of behavior won't be tolerated. Apple gets to keep it's shiny reputation.

It's only a matter of time before more and more of these horror stories come out of China. It's obvious someone is gunning for Apple specifically, now, too. This sort of thing happens all the time, and we think nothing of it, because we want cheap goods. But Apple, unlike many other companies, is more likely to care about its reputation.

It all comes down to consumer pressure.

Apple didn't give a flying f**k about the environment until consumers started showing an interest. Now Apple is ALL ABOUT the environment and harps on about it at every possible opportunity.

Once consumers start asking Apple about their sub-contractors operate, you'll start to see Apple changing the way they do business (and attempting to take the moral high ground at the same time).
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #122 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Do we? Is it? If so, why is it a given?

There's a huge disparity in labor protections and rights in western countries compared to China. It boggles my mind that some think the better standard is their way, not ours. For whatever flaws you might find with our labor laws, with the history of our labor unions, the simple fact remains that we have real labor laws, we have the right to freely unionize, including the right to strike. They don't. That is the underlying issue here. The same could be said for environmental protection, but we don't need to go there.

I think the author's point was that we already know that conditions are bad in both relative and absolute terms for Chinese workers. I think the point he was also making is that in the whole it is still better than the rural subsistence agriculture that sustained most of the population before industrialization where one bad harvest or natural disaster could kill millions (not that the Communist Govt would have made it easy for us to find out).

I'm not defending China's abuses but it is moving them in an overall positive direction. For the simplistic chants of "democracy" as an alternative system, it's a nice fairy tale but practically, that is unlikely to offer any short-term benefits and could prove to be even more destructive overall. India is the obvious comparator where "democracy" has allowed the maintenance of 100s of millions of people in abject poverty, political instability far more likely to lead to nuclear war than China and no abatement of the religious, tribal and caste tensions inherent in the country. The offshoring of technology jobs, call-centers etc. has been the successful exception, not the rule in India. Not that India isn't progressing but democracy is no silver bullet.

Democracy does not come fully formed with a docile, vaguely educated population, accustomed to regular meaningless ballots and without more committed and violent forces prepared to overthrow it at a moment's notice. It has to be earned by its populations - India earned theirs through blood and violence (and sit-ins), hopefully China's evolution will be less traumatic and more successful. Let's face it, economic chaos plus democracy in this complex and uncontrollable world is more likely to lead to 1933 Germany than 1786 America.
post #123 of 177
[QUOTE=Wiggin;1452065]And it's not the FIRST story about abuses in a factory manufacturing Apple products. Quick poll: anyone remember the last one? No? Didn't think so.

Ok, on this board, I'm sure there will be a handful of us that remember it, but the point still stands. How Apple reacts to this will have absolutely no impact on how the majority of people view Apple or it's products because two months from now, nobody will remember this incident.

I do remember the description of life in Apple's contracted factories earlier on these boards. Many workers never left the (presumably secure) factory compound. The company provided a store where workers could buy what personal supplies they needed. The hours were long. If he had a home outside the facility, he may have been on track for upper management.

China does not observe any sabbath rest.
May God rest this dead man's soul.

Loving the lower prices, we turn a blind eye to labor conditions outside the states in computer assembly and textiles and... and....

During the Olympics, China closed nearby factories so that athletes would not be impaired by the normally polluted air.
post #124 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

You missed my point. My post was sarcastic. It's a joke, that the response to how to fix China's human rights problems is the knee jerk reply, 'democracy.'

Sorry, I'm usually better at picking up on the sarcasm. Whenever these discussions turn social-political, there is inevitably someone who thinks something like making China a democracy is a practical alternative.
post #125 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

I think the author's point was that we already know that conditions are bad in both relative and absolute terms for Chinese workers. I think the point he was also making is that in the whole it is still better than the rural subsistence agriculture that sustained most of the population before industrialization where one bad harvest or natural disaster could kill millions (not that the Communist Govt would have made it easy for us to find out).

So compared to the backwards nation they were before under Marxism, things are better now? End of story, say no more? And forget about basic human rights. It could never work in China.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #126 of 177
What I would like to know is why is Apple off-shoring their core business processes to foreign countries, especially China. One should look to the future about 20 years to see that once Apple becomes ApplePitChina and they have the knowledge to start from scratch why do they need Apple anymore? This holds true for all items. One only has to look at political history between capitalist and proletariat countries and trade between rich and poor countries in the long run. Right now in the US there are lots of Engineers and IT people that are out of work. Why develop something that is bought in this country but not there, in a place that doesn't treat its workers right? China does have state run unions - everybody is in it, but look at the way they treat the Wobblies, a real union from Europe. It seems strange that companies like Apple that are supposed to be forward looking would use labor in sub-standard conditions like in China. The end result will be a fast buck today and a loss of the total business in the future and then loss of the whole industry eventually, like the auto industry. Why an engineer had a 4g protocol in his possession outside of the workspace is kind of strange also. Another anomaly is the treatment that the Chinese government gave to this man. After all, they are only biding their time until Silicon Valley looks like Detroit does today.
post #127 of 177
Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, so why would you blame China?
post #128 of 177
Apple [and everyone else] will continue making their products in the far east until Americans [and labor unions] understand that people don't deserve $35/hour with full benefits and a matching 401k for clicking the green button when the widget stops in front of them, and the red button if something goes wrong.

the Chinese [Taiwanese, etc] will do these jobs for less than 10% of what Americans will. these jobs will never come back.
post #129 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

Apple [and everyone else] will continue making their products in the far east until Americans [and labor unions] understand that people don't deserve $35/hour with full benefits and a matching 401k for clicking the green button when the widget stops in front of them, and the red button if something goes wrong.

the Chinese [Taiwanese, etc] will do these jobs for less than 10% of what Americans will. these jobs will never come back.

Why would jobs come back to the US, when the factories will go bankrupt like GM?
post #130 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by builder7 View Post

once Apple becomes ApplePitChina and they have the knowledge to start from scratch why do they need Apple anymore? This holds true for all items. One only has to look at political history between capitalist and proletariat countries and trade between rich and poor countries in the long run.

Hi builder7! Welcome to the boards.

Please give me an example of a rich country trading with a poor country where the long term result was the poorer country stealing from the richer and swapping places, making the rich country poor.
post #131 of 177
it is not that you live in an isolated place... it is perfect fine if US sealed its commercial border and completely shield off any other countries product by producing everything home grown. this is what used to be. but not anymore. it is not that only america can build those products while others only have chances to buy. if all are american home grown, how american products compete with those from korea/japan/china in oversea market? even now, you still can buy those products you think as high quality, but it will be suicidal for your business, unless you tell me you are a surgeon who can relentless charge your patients and they don't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

I would prefer to suck it up and change the tax laws to favor investment and manufacturing here in the US. If the Chinese cash it their US debt is fine with me... they are going to do it sooner or later. I am sure Uncle Benny at the Fed can issue a $T worth of paper money to the Chinese.

The trade agreements are really lopsided to the US... both WTO and NAFTA. Now that China is spending huge amounts of money for windmills, and photo electricity, they are using regulations to keep US companies from selling the products. Their excuse is that WTO does not apply to the government controlled electric utilities.

This rip off the American jobs, capital and technology got to end. A lot of this tech, basic research was developed at the expense of the US taxpayer, including the microchip, robots, LCDs, LEDs, etc. My experience has been that US goods are much better built. Back in 1960s, my parents bought a GE electric iron to press clothes... it lasted till the mid 1980s and my mother go rid of it because the electric cord got worn out. I bought a plasticky GE electric iron and it lasted barely 3 years. Same with the junk tools that I buy these days... the wrenches crack or strip the nuts... I still have my US made tools that I bought in the early 1980s.

I would rather pay more for quality US products like clothes, appliances, etc that last a long time... instead of Chinese junk stuff. I have to keep on telling the wife not to buy this cheap junk. Any doctors or surgeons in the house? I am getting tired of cheap Chinese or even Indian disposable surgical instruments. Hospitals prefer those to reusable hi quality US or even German instruments that have to be autoclaved.
post #132 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

So compared to the backwards nation they were before under Marxism, things are better now? End of story, say no more? And forget about basic human rights. It could never work in China.

Not at all - just that simplistic visions of the inherent effectiveness of democracy are misplaced and probably dangerous. I want the people of China to have all the rights and opportunities of any other people but the clear model for having an effective democracy is when populations earn those rights and understand and feel the real consequences of screwing it up...

China is a glass half full/empty right now - can we all agree on that?

(Don't tell me, it's a quarter, a third, 40%... ;-)
post #133 of 177
Another bull story, Apple build all protos in the US, they use local PCB houses to make protos boards and use a local San Jose company to place parts, many times the actually use lab technicians at apple to place parts and assemble the product. This is how apple has always done it. They would never have Foxconn build proto designs, it takes too long and its too hard to control things like protos leaking out.

I have been in a local CA PBA house when they were building apple protos, this company is well known for building Apple protos.
post #134 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

Not at all - just that simplistic visions of the inherent effectiveness of democracy are misplaced and probably dangerous. I want the people of China to have all the rights and opportunities of any other people but the clear model for having an effective democracy is when populations earn those rights and understand and feel the real consequences of screwing it up...

I didn't know that human rights had to be earned. The entire concept has me gasping.

Quote:
China is a glass half full/empty right now - can we all agree on that?

I'm not at all convinced that it is either half full or half empty. China has me concerned, for reasons previously explained. The government doles out rights as meagerly as possible, and only when the situation threatens to boil over. For one I wonder how long they can succeed in keeping the lid on. For another, I worry that they can keep the country locked down, and build a totalitarian nationalist state more powerful than any the world has ever witnessed. If you ask me, the leadership's model is the latter. They will hold onto as much centralized power as possible, and become as powerful as possible.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #135 of 177
This could be a very serious matter of industrial espionnage for the design of proprietary chips to be included in 4G iPhones.

While competitors can buy publically available parts for their own cell phones, and be quite good in selecting the next generation of components, they have no way but industrial espionnage to get the design of proprietary chips before the iPhone 4G goes on sale worldwide.

And, coincidentally or not, the iPhone 4G prototype was stolen one year before it goes on sale worldwide, giving competitors all the time they need to copy its secret chip design (and, possibly, claim it as their own).

And because the employee is dead, so is any proof of his guilt and any possibility for Apple to claim that the secret chip design is their own.

It can be a very serious case of chip espionnage.

BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years. The latest example is that American man of Chinese ancestry convicted of giving to Chinese government officials plans for 85% of the American shuttle (It should be known that the Chinese government doesn't participate in the international space station program, but plans to go on the Moon on its own).

Industrial spying is alive and well in the Chinese Empire.


post #136 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I didn't know that human rights had to be earned. The entire concept has me gasping.



I'm not at all convinced that it is either half full or half empty. China has me concerned, for reasons previously explained. The government doles out rights as meagerly as possible, and only when the situation threatens to boil over. For one I wonder how long they can succeed in keeping the lid on. For another, I worry that they can keep the country locked down, and build a totalitarian nationalist state more powerful than any the world has ever witnessed. If you ask me, the leadership's model is the latter. They will hold onto as much centralized power as possible, and become as powerful as possible.

No need to hyper-ventilate, although righteous indignation does seem to become you.

I didn't say you have to earn them, just that democracies that do seem to turn out to be most successful. Where all rights just suddenly appear over an uneducated population you are more likely to get chaos and back to totalitarianism. All the developed countries populace "earned" their rights over centuries - personal freedom, property, suffrage, equality, etc. I think China's population is "earning" it surprisingly well and quickly and without the chaos and bloodshed that marked most previous evolutions. All the more impressive given the unprecedented scale of the undertaking.

Of course China could do it better, but the Govt are loosening their grip vs. the total control they had under the old regime while also allowing improved standards of living for a majority (though certainly nowhere near all) of its people. In the end, I believe it is economic well being that fundamentally holds us away from insane mutually destructive wars (rather than the asymmetrical ones we keep fighting these days) - the quicker China has more to lose, the safer it should be for all of us. Let's face it, without this incredible economic development, China would be like a jumbo sized North Korea by now - Nukes in the pocket and nothing to lose.
post #137 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by crees! View Post

Waiting for the "blame Apple crowd" to show.

Who else would you blame? Everyone knows AAPLs culture is really really hard on those in positions with access to development stuff.

FoxCon is known for this kind of shit, and I , quite frankly, think AAPL managment wants it that way, if Jobs or Cook gave a fuck about human rights, they could end the really sad and sick stories that come out of Foxcon with one call.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #138 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

It's takes more guts to commit suicide therefore he took the harder way out of the situation?
Why would someone intentiaonally choose the more difficult way out of something?

When they feel there is no other option. You apparently have no idea what a psychological effect torture, threats, and mental anguish can have on a human. Especially when they have the ability to follow through with their threats and violence.

But hey, why don't you go over to China get a job there and 'lose' one of Apples prototypes and let us know how things go.
post #139 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I agree with you about the 'bad feeling.'
. What is your alternative prescription for how these billion+ people should lead better lives?

they should give up their desperate & lame attempt to imitate the so-called success the west's model known as Capitalism.

Capitalism _only_ works in the long-term (notice how the capitalist model is scarce 100 years old and it's already depleted the world (potentially) beyond recovery?) when it is feeding a very, very small population of consumers.

When one throws a hyper-consumptive market like India or China into the mix (esp. on top of the U.S. & Europe), Capitalism begins to tragically fail...due to, obviously, the sheer lack of resources required to feed the Capitalist model.

Capitalism only works when predicated upon a never-ending supply of raw materials...No such thing.


too bad for the guy; but, frankly, he's better off dead if his source in life of self-worth & belonging had to do with his ability to honor his relationship with a fucking corporation of all things.

Jump, my friend, jump...and go gladly into that good night. Perhaps, next time, you'll make a better choice & not enslave yourself to technology (of all things) for your sense of self-worth.
post #140 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years. The latest example is that American man of Chinese ancestry convicted of giving to Chinese government officials plans for 85% of the American shuttle (It should be known that the Chinese government doesn't participate in the international space station program, but plans to go on the Moon on its own).

Industrial spying is alive and well in the Chinese Empire.



please, the last 2000 years? it's only in the last several decades that China has even bothered to open her self up to any serious interaction with the "western" world = influence from outside cultures. China of all countries has typically been remarkably insular.

I'd love to see some sources for your brash statement of "...have been doing so for the last 2,000 years."
post #141 of 177
Where do I start....

1) The guy didn't kill himself over a lost iPhone, he apparently killed himself after being harassed, threatened and possibly tortured. Big difference!

2) We don't know the whole story yet.

3) Is China capitalist, communist or fascist? Let's put it this way: workers there are essentially slaves with very low pay.

4) The mobile phone industry is a multi-billion dollar business. It would not surprise me if there was foul play here. Greedy people do evil things.
post #142 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post


BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years. The latest example is that American man of Chinese ancestry convicted of giving to Chinese government officials plans for 85% of the American shuttle (It should be known that the Chinese government doesn't participate in the international space station program, but plans to go on the Moon on its own).

Industrial spying is alive and well in the Chinese Empire.



I think you'll find that for at least much of the first 1500 years of your 2000, China was inventing amazing scientific things, etc. while present Western Civilization was barely using the wheel.
The copying thing (with or without espionage) is what any follower does to try to catch up when it is vastly outmatched - look at the US in the 19th century, Japan, S Korea, etc. 1945-80 - once they get on terms, then they innovate/invent. God help us when China does.
post #143 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_23 View Post

please, the last 2000 years? it's only in the last several decades that China has even bothered to open her self up to any serious interaction with the "western" world = influence from outside cultures. China of all countries has typically been remarkably insular.

I'd love to see some sources for your brash statement of "...have been doing so for the last 2,000 years."


I was referring to the habit of copying antiquities and "unique" objects of art. Because China is almost 5 times bigger than the U.S., it has 5 times as many talented, unemployed artists and fraud artists.

Businessmen are well aware that they should not carry any trade secrets on computers across border lines (Chinese and the USA alike) as custom agents are empowered by law to confiscate computers and copy their contents.

Finally, large scale espionnage operations were carried out in government and defence department computers throughout Western world democracies (Germany, France, Britain, Canada, the U.S.) over the last 12 to 24 months, all of them originating from China or, the last one, North Korea. Just check TG Daily or Google for the exact references, if it's news to you.

BTW, I trust the intelligence and hard work of the Chinese people, but I am under no illusion as to what their communist government is capable of.


post #144 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

I was referring to the habit of copying antiquities and "unique" objects of art. Because China is almost 5 times bigger than the U.S., it has 5 times as many talented, unemployed artists and fraud artists.

Businessmen are well aware that they should not carry any trade secrets on computers across border lines (Chinese and the USA alike) as custom agents are empowered by law to confiscate computers and copy their contents.

Finally, large scale espionnage operations were carried out in government and defence department computers throughout Western world democracies (Germany, France, Britain, Canada, the U.S.) over the last 12 to 24 months, all of them originating from China or, the last one, North Korea. Just check TG Daily or Google for the exact references, if it's news to you.

BTW, I trust the intelligence and hard work of the Chinese people, but I am under no illusion as to what their communist government is capable of.



I mean... I'm no huge fan of China but if you think the USA is just sitting back fending off attacks, and isn't actively doing our own spying... well I can't really help you.

You said "BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years"

Make this easy on yourself and just retract that. Upon re-reading the racist tone strikes me more than it did at first....
post #145 of 177
Good grief - this thread has wandered all over the place without capturing the gist of this episode and Americans' reactions to it. This is fundamentally a question of applying American business ethics and expectations to the business practices of products and components manufactured abroad by Apple suppliers. It's been a vexing problem for companies like Nike, for example, dealing with allegations of sweatshop conditions in Asian factories.

So should we hold Apple responsible for business practices at a supplier that apparently caused one of the supplier's employees to kill himself? Perhaps, if you look at the corporate responsibility Apple has taken on itself on environmental concerns. Apple certainly expends great effort to reduce its environmental footprint on the planet, through such practices as recycling old electronics, earth-friendly packaging design, and minimizing toxic chemicals in products and manufacturing.

So then - what influence should Apple exert over the behavior of suppliers toward their employees?

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post #146 of 177
This would not have happened if Apple made their products in the US.
post #147 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post


BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years.

Huh?!

Last I looked, China was getting no royalties or IP protection for paper, gunpowder, fireworks, the compass, printing, or porcelain from the West. Or, for that matter, from anywhere.

(As an fyi, all of those happened within the last 2000 years.)
post #148 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

The problem is, I've never seen you cite anything. All I've ever seen you do is criticize others for not citing sources, or criticize the source they do cite. Ironically, we are making the same point, which is that living and working conditions for factory workers in China are abominable. Workers are treated as expendable units. This is something most people don't know about China. But I need to cite my source for that, and you don't? Who made that rule?

Because it's clearly based on your own prejudice of China. Otherwise why are Chinese government policies polling so well? Why was there a great deal of renewed nationalism after the Olympics?

Chinese factory worker conditions in many factories are bad but China has improved a great deal. The biggest problem is corruption where folks simply don't do what is required by law (or companies) and pay officials off to get away with it.

It's not hard to figure out. A farmer makes $690 a year. A factory worker 3 times as much.
post #149 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

Wow, in order for there to be prototypes already, the device itself must have been conceived maybe 6-8 months ago. That means that it's finalized for quite a long time before the public ever sees it!

Exactly and to me that says this isn't a iPhone 4G. Perhaps it was an iPhone mini others still insist is coming , or perhaps a 64GB iPhone 3GS intended for just before the holidays?

True Apple has so far gone with June for iPhone launches, with no updates prior (barring a price drop), but they've done small updates with other lines prior to launches of "something new", I see no reason why they wouldn't with the iPhone.

Besides, shut up, I'm allowed to dream.
post #150 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Because it's clearly based on your own prejudice of China. Otherwise why are Chinese government policies polling so well? Why was there a great deal of renewed nationalism after the Olympics?

Chinese factory worker conditions in many factories are bad but China has improved a great deal. The biggest problem is corruption where folks simply don't do what is required by law (or companies) and pay officials off to get away with it.

It's not hard to figure out. A farmer makes $690 a year. A factory worker 3 times as much.

With respect, Vinea, he's right. Cite your stuff and don't make assumptions about people. I don't know you and I want hard evidence of anything you say or he says. The first thing you can research, explain and cite when explaining is who's polls are these and why should we trust them?
post #151 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

Because China is almost 5 times bigger than the U.S.

I would hate to nitpick, but:

1. China's July 2009 estimated population is: 1,338,612,968 and the United States as of this posting is estimated to have: 306,973,077. China thus has approximately 4.36 times as many people as the United States. A significant number, but if we are to round, we should round down, not up.

2. In terms of area China is: 9,596,960 sq km and the United States is 9,826,630 sq km. Of that, for China: 9,326,410 sq km is land and for the United States: 9,161,923 sq km is land. Depending on which measure you find most important, one is in third place and the other is in fourth place as far as total area goes versus the other countries of the world. Russia and Canada are ahead with first and second place respectively.

Now chances are you meant population. But 4.36 isn't almost 5, something like 4.9 is or 4.8, heck I may have given you 4.6, but not 4.36.

Anyway, food for thought.
post #152 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

Where do I start....

1) The guy didn't kill himself over a lost iPhone, he apparently killed himself after being harassed, threatened and possibly tortured. Big difference!

2) We don't know the whole story yet.

3) Is China capitalist, communist or fascist? Let's put it this way: workers there are essentially slaves with very low pay.

4) The mobile phone industry is a multi-billion dollar business. It would not surprise me if there was foul play here. Greedy people do evil things.

How can you say the salary is low in China? Maybe relatively to the average US salary. But the consumers prices in China are much lower. For example, a decent apartment in China is way cheaper than in the US. And the people do not work like slaves there. This is the typical misconception that ignorant Americans have about other countries. They can quit their job and find another better job. People can go back to school to upgrade themselves for a better job.

As the US economy continues to slump, you guys in the US will very soon work for cheap wages. The US is going bankrupt soon unless, China continues to lend more money. You guys will have a chance to work like slaves very soon.
post #153 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post

I would hate to nitpick, but:

1. China's July 2009 estimated population is: 1,338,612,968 and the United States as of this posting is estimated to have: 306,973,077. China thus has approximately 4.36 times as many people as the United States. A significant number, but if we are to round, we should round down, not up.

2. In terms of area China is: 9,596,960 sq km and the United States is 9,826,630 sq km. Of that, for China: 9,326,410 sq km is land and for the United States: 9,161,923 sq km is land. Depending on which measure you find most important, one is in third place and the other is in fourth place as far as total area goes versus the other countries of the world. Russia and Canada are ahead with first and second place respectively.

Now chances are you meant population. But 4.36 isn't almost 5, something like 4.9 is or 4.8, heck I may have given you 4.6, but not 4.36.

Anyway, food for thought.

GREAT post. Truly great.

post #154 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post

With respect, Vinea, he's right. Cite your stuff and don't make assumptions about people. I don't know you and I want hard evidence of anything you say or he says. The first thing you can research, explain and cite when explaining is who's polls are these and why should we trust them?

Already cited on page 2. In 2008 86% of surveyed Chinese are satisfied with the direction the country is going. That's #1 in the world.

I put the link on the page for a reason...so you can go look at who was the poller, who was polled and what methods they used. That you won't even CLICK on the link is not my problem but yours. Nor do I have to KEEP citing the link in following posts.

But here:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=261

In the full report you can go to the survey methods section.

But thus far Millmoss has asserted that China is potentially the most dangerous nation on the planet, that "some" Chinese have a better life but that "many" Chinese do not lead implying that the majority do not, that China is trying to drive migrant workers to the city by reducing rural education and health care and that the system is "brutal". hint: Its more brutal in the rural areas or they wouldn't go into the cities. And the Chinese government does try to improve rural living conditions.

All without any citations or facts other than his own opinion which appear prejudiced, uneducated and based on fear. Which you don't seem to mind but try to call me on a lack of citations which were previously supplied.

China has a huge population with complexities only India truly understands because she faces many of the same problems. However, the cultural and historical background of the two countries lead to two different political solutions.

Note that democracy in India has not magically resolved harsh living and working conditions. While they are better, in general, than in China TODAY, India hasn't shot itself in the foot a couple times like China has (the cultural revolution was the biggie). However, child worker conditions in Bangalore is not what I would call "ideal" and there are often harsh working conditions using migrant workers in dangerous jobs with little pay.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004....randeepramesh
post #155 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post

Seriously, people don't seem to understand that capitalism on communism is like lipstick on a pig.

Maybe if we can free up the death grip of some of the unions in the US we can move some of these jobs back home.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for workers having some sort of representation to make sure they don't get screwed by corporations, but some of the demands of these union managers are just to line their own pockets & don't get anything for the worker.

What specific demands by "union managers" are you talking about.
post #156 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post

I would hate to nitpick, but:

That would be nitpicking. China is 4 times larger than they US and will likely be even closer to being 5 times larger within a few years. Which would also qualify for the "almost" moniker.

While our growth rate is higher than China's, ours is decreasing (and mostly based on immigration) while theirs has seen a blip upwards. Even with a 0.6 growth rate, they'll hit 1.5B in around 5 years. In 5 years we'll had maybe another 10-20M to our population (0.8). 1.5B vs 320M. 4.68-1.

Depends on how much our recession curtails immigration pressure. If we have a fast recovery, we could see immigration go back up to 0.92. In which case China wouldn't be closer in 5 years but further away. But given the recent trend line I'm thinking not likely.
post #157 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

Apple [and everyone else] will continue making their products in the far east until Americans [and labor unions] understand that people don't deserve $35/hour with full benefits and a matching 401k for clicking the green button when the widget stops in front of them, and the red button if something goes wrong.

the Chinese [Taiwanese, etc] will do these jobs for less than 10% of what Americans will. these jobs will never come back.

Fine, you have a point.

Then let's build robot factories in the U.S.A then! Yes, initial costs will be expensive. But in the long run a robot would work for a hell of a lot less than a Chinese worker and I bet more efficiently too! And with a lot less torture induced "suicides"!!!
It would be better than the situation we have now...now wouldn't it?
post #158 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanhauer View Post

Umm, he didn't "lose" his life... he "took" his own life which is a cowardly way out. Many people go through horrible experiences in their life. Killing yourself over a lost iPhone or even losing your job, becoming homeless etc aren't reasons to kill yourself.

Typical social ignorance. In Asia loss of "face" is a major thing and if great enough death by suicide is seen as the only option. I strongly suspect that not understanding social differences lead to this mess.
post #159 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I didn't know that human rights had to be earned. The entire concept has me gasping.

If a country had unalienable rights similar to that of the United States, but had a collapsed economic system, the people of that country would still suffer.

The situation in China is somewhat different than the U.S. in that the government has focused on first lifting the economic system before addressing more specific issues of human rights. In practicality, both our necessary to ensure prosperity.

Now the fact is that China has about 4.3 x the population of the US, but the US still consumes more resources than China. As an earlier post pointed out, our resources our quickly depleting. If we expect Chinese workers to get paid even 1/2 of a US wage with all the benefits we receive here in the States, that is simply unreasonable, the resources of our planet will not support it.

We see all of these jobs being outsourced and we question why. I think the answer is as simple as: The standard of living in the US is unsustainable.

We criticize China for slave labor, when in practicality, their wages represent those competitive in our global market. So we can blame free market capitalism, but we most certainly cannot blame China.

China to be sure does need to improve in the area of human rights (Actually many laws have been pasted, but they are seldom followed. For example, here in BJ, work is canceled if the weather is above 39 deg C, which it has been on several days, but the weather report always declares it to be 38 degrees) but in truth, it is the system of American capitalism has pushed China in this direction.

For example, we blame China for polluting the environment, but a vast number of this pollution comes from factories that ship things to the US, supporting US consumers.

We are all at fault.
post #160 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

How can you say the salary is low in China? Maybe relatively to the average US salary. But the consumers prices in China are much lower. For example, a decent apartment in China is way cheaper than in the US. And the people do not work like slaves there. This is the typical misconception that ignorant Americans have about other countries. They can quit their job and find another better job. People can go back to school to upgrade themselves for a better job.

Well, because the salaries ARE low. At the end of the day, China is still a Communist country where citizens have a lot less freedom and corruption is rampant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

As the US economy continues to slump, you guys in the US will very soon work for cheap wages. The US is going bankrupt soon unless, China continues to lend more money. You guys will have a chance to work like slaves very soon.

It's not only the US economy that is slumping. And if the US did go bankrupt, China would be royally screwed. The one thing that could happen is that the US started manufacturing our goods right here in the US again instead of outsourcing everything to China. Imagine how something like that would impact the already fragile Chinese economy.
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