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Worker commits suicide after iPhone prototype goes missing - reports - Page 3

post #81 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

I fully agree. My Apple SE proudly says "Made in U.S.A." and it was made well; it still works. Why would we not be able to do this any more?

The current policy of laying people off in the USA and produce in low-wage countries is a dead-end street. I wish that Apple would play a model role here and put the "Made in U.S.A." sticker back on their products.

Why don't they "make stuff here anymore"? Because we don't have a currency artificially pegged to the dollar... we have the dollar. Magically cut the cost of everything by 1/7th, then we'll talk.

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post #82 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Pre-recession, the unemployment rate in the US has hovered between 4% and 6% - i.e., about 95% of the people looking for work in the US have generally found it. (Currently the rate is close to 10%, but that is because of the economic slowdown.)

How does outsourcing explain that?

It doesn't. Thats not what I said. Or, you misinterpreted what I said. I meant, build assembly plants in the US for Apple products like there used to be would be great for workers looking for jobs. And it would get Apple out of the Made in China crap.

Apparently its a bad idea...everyone loves made in china shit in the US. So just never mind the idea....

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post #83 of 177
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Originally Posted by c4rlob View Post

I feel really bad for this employee

Sad story .
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post #84 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanhauer View Post

Umm, he didn't "lose" his life... he "took" his own life which is a cowardly way out. Many people go through horrible experiences in their life. Killing yourself over a lost iPhone or even losing your job, becoming homeless etc aren't reasons to kill yourself.

HUH

He felt very bad. A great amount of shame. BUT he was no coward.
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post #85 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

I'm glad you don't run anything with our country.... Your thinking is the prime reason we are in the position were in today.... But whatever...moving on.....

Correct, the strongest country in the world (even given the current recession, happens every 10-14 years don't ya know) in the richest, most prosperous period in human history.

Thank god the periods when your protectionist philosophy held sway in this country were brief and long ago. Though, this current fit of protectionism will surely hurt many people. It's a shame all students are not required to have a basic understanding of economics.
post #86 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

You agree with me about something? Hold the presses!

Yes, some Chinese do lead better lives today, but many don't, especially in the rural areas where the government has reduced spending on education and health care, in order to drive more workers into the cities. The working conditions in the cities are very poor -- workers are effectively warehoused, and when they can't keep up with the pace and the conditions, they are fired. More are available to take their places. It's a brutal system.

My alternative prescription to authoritarianism is a lack of authoritarianism. Democracy would be the prescription. An ability of people to protect themselves from exploitation.

I agree with you more than you know.

It is just that you sometimes overstate issues, and I occasionally point those out. For instance, in the post above, you make a number of claims that are problematic. Here's an example: You say "some" Chinese lead better lives, but "many" don't. Now, any reasonable person reading that might conclude - if the claim were true - that a majority of the Chinese don't lead better lives compared to a couple of decades ago. I'd venture a guess that such a claim is totally untrue, but when you say something like that, it would nice to see a cite. (Similarly, a cite for your claim that the Chinese government reduced spending on health and education in rural China so as to drive people to cities).

OTOH, I agree with you that urban working conditions for a lot of hourly workers are poor, and the system of worker dorms - widely prevalent in the electronics industry there - can be brutal.
post #87 of 177
In my view Apple can't afford to be quiet about this.....not this time. Working conditions in Chinese factories is one thing but this is totally different.
Apple had better react correctly on this one because someone just literally gave up their life over a damn prototype.....their prototype.
post #88 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Why don't they "make stuff here anymore"? Because we don't have a currency artificially pegged to the dollar... we have the dollar. Magically cut the cost of everything by 1/7th, then we'll talk.

Not to mention the FACT that the USA is still the world's second/third (depending on the year recently) largest exporter.

They make LOTS of stuff here, it's just the cheap stuff that, if we made it here (and sold it to our own citizens) would put more of those citizens below the poverty/hunger line because the goods sold in WalMart would be more expensive.

Of course people who don't understand economics don't believe that having a manufacturing job go from Ohio to China could possibly make any American better off, but we shouldn't wonder at that lack of understanding any more than we wonder why a third grader can't understand chemistry.
post #89 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Correct, the strongest country in the world (even given the current recession, happens every 10-14 years don't ya know) in the richest, most prosperous period in human history.

Thank god the periods when your protectionist philosophy held sway in this country were brief and long ago. Though, this current fit of protectionism will surely hurt many people. It's a shame all students are not required to have a basic understanding of economics.

Strongest country (debatable) owing the most money to other countries I will add in.....

$740 BILLION owed to People's Republic of China alone!

Over $3 TRILLION total owed to various countries!

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post #90 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Apple needs to quit making its products overseas. There is enough automation available to overcome the labor cost differences and manufacture the products at home, here in the US. The US government itself, needs to change the tax laws that allow companies like Apple to defer income taxes that result from manufacturing overseas. Companies such as Apple, Intel, use transfer pricing and do not pay any taxes in China and minimally in the US.

Again, the profits are kept in some tax heaven. Occasionally, the government give out a tax holiday and the companies can repatriate with a minimal tax of may be 5-15%.

Strategically, this kind of outsourcing transfer a lot of tech overseas. In the long run, this kind of thing comes to bite us. The huge supply chains, transfer of capital, manufacturing tech creates competition against us. It is giant sucking sound for American jobs.

I have been told that the primary reason so few electronics are made in the US has less to do with taxes and wages than it does with the EPA. Apparently, making electronics is a nasty business with everything from heavy metals to carcinogens being prevalent. Making this in the US runs into expensive nightmare scenarios when dealing with the EPA. However, in many other countries there are little to no environmental regulation and worker safety isn't exactly the highest concern.

However, I do agree with you that it would be nice if Apple moved their production somewhere else. To the US would be great, but there are other countries with great existing production facilities: Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, etc.
post #91 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I agree with you more than you know.

It is just that you sometimes overstate issues, and I occasionally point those out. For instance, in the post above, you make a number of claims that are problematic. Here's an example: You say "some" Chinese lead better lives, but "many" don't. Now, any reasonable person reading that might conclude - if the claim were true - that a majority of the Chinese don't lead better lives compared to a couple of decades ago. I'd venture a guess that such a claim is totally untrue, but when you say something like that, it would nice to see a cite. .

Is the Economist a sufficient source?

God I wish everyone read it...

http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ry_ID=12773135

In the last 30 years, 200 million Chinese have been lifted above the poverty level.

Boo, free trade.
post #92 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

I fully agree. My Apple SE proudly says "Made in U.S.A." and it was made well; it still works. Why would we not be able to do this any more?

Meanwhile, Rube and this George BlankenShitz just keep working at competitors and revealing Apple secrets to line their pockets!! Let's send some Yakusah to speak with them!
post #93 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

There's a reason I've never bought a foxconn motherboard actually. Oh, and there's plenty of decent phones out there. Expand your horizons.

Depending on what Mac you have...it may or may not have been produced by Foxconn Industries.

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post #94 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Is the Economist a sufficient source?

God I wish everyone read it...

http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ry_ID=12773135

In the last 30 years, 200 million Chinese have been lifted above the poverty level.

Boo, free trade.

Yeah, The Economist is usually a pretty good source. And, it is my view that mankind had devised few things that are more wealth-creating than trade between nations.

Interestingly, the Gini Index of income inequality for China is about the same as that of the US (47 versus 45; Source: CIA World Factbook) - and both countries are in the bottom third, i.e., highly unequal!
post #95 of 177
Quite the issue for Foxconn.
post #96 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

It doesn't. Thats not what I said. Or, you misinterpreted what I said. I meant, build assembly plants in the US for Apple products like there used to be would be great for workers looking for jobs. And it would get Apple out of the Made in China crap.

Apparently its a bad idea...everyone loves made in china shit in the US. So just never mind the idea....

Unions are part of the problem. In the US, everyone demands benefits, coverage for everything under the sun, paid leave, sick leave, personal days, etc., etc. This is a widespread issue in North America. And guess who is paying for all these benefits and time off from work? We can no longer afford to maintain a North American manufacturing workforce. The Auto Workers' union being a prime example. What they did here in Canada is beyond ridiculous.

Unions are incredibly powerful in North America, and the average person has an outrageous sense of entitlement, which really doesn't help matters.
post #97 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I agree with you more than you know.

It is just that you sometimes overstate issues, and I occasionally point those out. For instance, in the post above, you make a number of claims that are problematic. Here's an example: You say "some" Chinese lead better lives, but "many" don't. Now, any reasonable person reading that might conclude - if the claim were true - that a majority of the Chinese don't lead better lives compared to a couple of decades ago. I'd venture a guess that such a claim is totally untrue, but when you say something like that, it would nice to see a cite. (Similarly, a cite for your claim that the Chinese government reduced spending on health and education in rural China so as to drive people to cities).

OTOH, I agree with you that urban working conditions for a lot of hourly workers are poor, and the system of worker dorms - widely prevalent in the electronics industry there - can be brutal.

The problem is, I've never seen you cite anything. All I've ever seen you do is criticize others for not citing sources, or criticize the source they do cite. Ironically, we are making the same point, which is that living and working conditions for factory workers in China are abominable. Workers are treated as expendable units. This is something most people don't know about China. But I need to cite my source for that, and you don't? Who made that rule?
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post #98 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Unions are part of the problem. In the US, everyone demands benefits, coverage for everything under the sun, paid leave, sick leave, personal days, etc., etc. This is a widespread issue in North America. And guess who is paying for all these benefits and time off from work? We can no longer afford to maintain a North American manufacturing workforce. The Auto Workers' union being a prime example. What they did here in Canada is beyond ridiculous.

Unions are incredibly powerful in North America, and the average person has an outrageous sense of entitlement, which really doesn't help matters.

Talk about your broad generalization. You're comparing workers in the US, Europe and Canada with China and saying that the problem is that workers outside China get too much? How about the complete lack of labor protection laws elsewhere? Why is that not at least a part the problem?
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post #99 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Unions are part of the problem. In the US, everyone demands benefits, coverage for everything under the sun, paid leave, sick leave, personal days, etc., etc. This is a widespread issue in North America. And guess who is paying for all these benefits and time off from work? We can no longer afford to maintain a North American manufacturing workforce. The Auto Workers' union being a prime example. What they did here in Canada is beyond ridiculous.

Unions are incredibly powerful in North America, and the average person has an outrageous sense of entitlement, which really doesn't help matters.

I'm against compulsory unionization for workers (ex: SAG, AFL-CIO, etc.). But voluntarily joining a union, I'm completely fine with that. Also, collective bargaining is a legitimate tool for workers to gain advantage in negotiations, HOWEVER it cannot guarantee employment when faced with new competitive pressures, such as a failing economy or foreign competition. I'm 100% against bailouts from the government to "save" businesses that have failed to stay competitive for whatever reason.

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post #100 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'm against compulsory unionization for workers (ex: SAG, AFL-CIO, etc.). But voluntarily joining a union, I'm completely fine with that. Also, collective bargaining is a legitimate tool for workers to gain advantage in negotiations, HOWEVER it cannot guarantee employment when faced with new competitive pressures, such as a failing economy or foreign competition. I'm 100% against bailouts from the government to "save" businesses that have failed to stay competitive for whatever reason.

Unfortunately we have one of the most powerful unions, the teachers, which acts undermine any other industry we might want to grow. Since bad teachers cannot be fired, we can't create good students. Unions in and of themselves might be only fair, but the result when they become too powerful is that they help themselves to the rest of our taxes.

This is precisely why the auto industry needed bailing out and the airline industry before it - these workers can't be fired and eventually an "important" industry becomes so weak that it must either be shut down (putting millions of those underskilled workers out of the jobs they so righteously deserve) or bailed out by me. I don't want my money given to workers who (through their union negotiators) are so unskilled and greedy that they hamstring the entire country, but unfortunately I don't have a choice.
post #101 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Talk about your broad generalization. You're comparing workers in the US, Europe and Canada with China and saying that the problem is that workers outside China get too much? How about the complete lack of labor protection laws elsewhere? Why is that not at least a part the problem?

It helps to look at the dirt on your OWN doorstep first, before you criticize what's on everyone else's.

We know about China and labour laws. That's a given. How about what we're doing right here at home? What are we doing to encourage the situtation? It all boils down to our consumerist attitudes and our sense of entitlement.

If you think there is no problem, ask the average family to buy luxury items only when they can actually afford them instead of relying on credit. You'll get more than a few dirty looks. We're sick out of our tree when to comes to spending. Savings? No one has any. And kids grow up wanting Escalades and Xboxes ASAP. Parents want to give their children what they "never had", and measure their self worth in terms of providing an ever-increasing number of consumer goods to their children and families. A common result is a mountain of debt. No wonder accounts recovery (bill collecting) is a booming industry. I spent about 5 years in it. And these attitudes translate beautifully to what we expect in the workplace. Employers have become the industrial equivalent of sugardaddies. At some point this system will break down, and we're seeing it happen.
post #102 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'm against compulsory unionization for workers (ex: SAG, AFL-CIO, etc.). But voluntarily joining a union, I'm completely fine with that. Also, collective bargaining is a legitimate tool for workers to gain advantage in negotiations, HOWEVER it cannot guarantee employment when faced with new competitive pressures, such as a failing economy or foreign competition. I'm 100% against bailouts from the government to "save" businesses that have failed to stay competitive for whatever reason.

Oh, agreed. I'm not against unions. They're really the first line and last line of defense workers have from a runaway Capitalist system. The problem is that the power of Unions has grown to nearly uncontrollable proportions. And workers expect more and more from employers, above and beyond a fair wage, and quite frankly, in some sectors workers should not be getting as much as they are to begin with.
post #103 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

It helps to look at the dirt on your OWN doorstep first, before you criticize what's on everyone else's.

We know about China and labour laws. That's a given. How about what we're doing right here at home? What are we doing to encourage the situtation? It all boils down to our consumerist attitudes and our sense of entitlement.

If you think there is no problem, ask the average family to buy luxury items only when they can actually afford them instead of relying on credit. You'll get more than a few dirty looks. We're sick out of our tree when to comes to spending. Savings? No one has any. And kids grow up wanting Escalades and Xboxes ASAP. Parents want to give their children what they "never had", and measure their self worth in terms of providing an ever-increasing number of consumer goods to their children and families. A common result is a mountain of debt. No wonder accounts recovery (bill collecting) is a booming industry. I spent about 5 years in it. And these attitudes translate beautifully to what we expect in the workplace. Employers have become the industrial equivalent of sugardaddies. At some point this system will break down, and we're seeing it happen.

Not to mention that 65 year olds of today expect the workers of today to fund their retirement for 25 some odd years.

65 year olds of 50 years ago expected a couple years of retirement paid by the government.

You want to know how much government funded retirement I expect when I hit 65 (I'm 30)? Zero.

Talk about greedy...

Within the next 10 years the retirement age will be moved from 65 to 80 or this country will be out of business by 2050.

Read the Economist if you want numbers.

http://www.economist.com/specialrepo...ry_id=13887861
post #104 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Oh, agreed. I'm not against unions. They're really the first line and last line of defense workers have from a runaway Capitalist system. The problem is that the power of Unions has grown to nearly uncontrollable proportions. And workers expect more and more from employers, above and beyond a fair wage.

"Runaway" capitalism? Oh, dear. We've never really had full-fledged free-market style capitalism. We are currently suffering under a corporatist-pseudo-socialist-government-for-government's-sake system. Basically, the whole viper's nest needs to collapse before any progress can be made. People are essentially getting what they want out of tax 'n' theft pocketbook politics.

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post #105 of 177
That's one hell of a "remote wipe" implementation!
post #106 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Not to mention that 65 year olds of today expect the workers of today to fund their retirement for 25 some odd years.

65 year olds of 50 years ago expected a couple years of retirement paid by the government.

You want to know how much government funded retirement I expect when I hit 65 (I'm 30)? Zero.

Talk about greedy...

Within the next 10 years the retirement age will be moved from 65 to 80 or this country will be out of business by 2050.

Read the Economist if you want numbers.

http://www.economist.com/specialrepo...ry_id=13887861

I've been screaming about the coming demographic disaster of too few workers to support too many retirees for lo, these many years. It's a mathematical certainty. Short of the importation of massive numbers of new taxpayers, and the wholesale slashing of the size of government... we're looking at a crisis far larger than this recession/depression in our future. Stock up on guns and food (enough to last you for the rest of your life ).

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post #107 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by MH01 View Post

WTF? He was an engineer that lost a prototype.... who the hell puts someone in Jail for that. You get fired for something like that but not put in jail. If he stole/sold the protoype you can look at legal action. Read the article. The only jab at apple is the last paragraph, they use factories that abuse thier workers.....but so does everyone else in china. Frankly i wish Apple products were made somewhere else.

Had you bothered to comprehend my post, I did not say the individual should have received jailtime. In my post, I stated that he must not have received jail time since he had the time to go up to a roof and jump. If he did indeed receive jailtime, it must have been a small amount of time.

The article is vague on the specifics. Did this individual truly "lose" the prototype or was there a bigger conspiracy going on?

If his intentions were sincere and he got sloppy and misplaced the prototype, arguably he should have just been fired and be done with. It would be ridiculous to receive jail time for that. However, if there was something bigger going on like an attempt to forward the prototype to a competitor or leak it to a news site, then harsher punishment (legal) should be administered. At the minimum, it sounds like what FoxConn did was blatant and disregarded his basic human rights.

It's unfortunate what happened to him. Of course, where China is concerned... I wonder how much help he received to keep all the doors unlocked that led to the roof and armed-guards following him the entire time to make sure he actually jumped.
post #108 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

That's one hell of a "remote wipe" implementation!

Your post *might* have been insensitive earlier in the thread, but your timing is perfect! Nice one.
post #109 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjoec123 View Post

True. They haven't lost any sales yet. But this isn't going to be the last story about Apple and abuses in China. I'm suggesting that Apple jump out in front of the issue, and at least give people a sense that they're taking action, even if that action is ultimately futile.

And it's not the FIRST story about abuses in a factory manufacturing Apple products. Quick poll: anyone remember the last one? No? Didn't think so.

Ok, on this board, I'm sure there will be a handful of us that remember it, but the point still stands. How Apple reacts to this will have absolutely no impact on how the majority of people view Apple or it's products because two months from now, nobody will remember this incident.

If the pattern of previous incidents hold, Apple will put pressure on Foxconn to make changes. And the lives of the workers will incrementailly improve. Apple could abandon Foxconn, or even abandon Chinese production all together. But it would make no difference to the vast, vast majority of Apple's customers if their iPhone was made in China or Wichita, as long as the price doesn't go up (which is most surely would).

And to what benefit to the factory workers in China? They lose their jobs? Another US company comes in and since they don't have a history with Foxconn, the workers lose the improvements Apple insisted on in the past, pushing them back to square one? Perhaps the best course of action for Apple is to continue in a long-term, stable relationship with Foxconn and to continue taking incidents like these seriously and as opportunities to improve the working conditions in the factories. The Chinese government obviously doesn't care. As long as they can bring in foreign capital on the backs of their people, they will continue to do so. Because they view that as the path to their perceived destiny as the dominant world superpower.
post #110 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

At the minimum, it sounds like what FoxConn did was blatant and disregarded his basic human rights.

We have no indication that "FoxConn" is to blame. What if the inappropriate actions were conceived and enacted by a handful of individuals? Do you really think FoxConn has a policy advising solitary confinement and illegal searches? We have very few facts so we shouldn't be condemning anyone's actions quite yet.
post #111 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by veloboldie View Post

I wonder if they used the bamboo under the finger nail torture, or the water drip on your forehead torture.

Totally off-topic... I'd always laughed at that one - drip, drip, drip - how tough can it be? Then I saw it on Spooks (MI5) season 6 when Ros was being tortured and it looked surprisingly nasty. Dripping slowly on your forehead, head held back, looking up into the drips... very unpleasant over time...

resume normal service...
post #112 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

We know about China and labour laws. That's a given.

Do we? Is it? If so, why is it a given?

There's a huge disparity in labor protections and rights in western countries compared to China. It boggles my mind that some think the better standard is their way, not ours. For whatever flaws you might find with our labor laws, with the history of our labor unions, the simple fact remains that we have real labor laws, we have the right to freely unionize, including the right to strike. They don't. That is the underlying issue here. The same could be said for environmental protection, but we don't need to go there.
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post #113 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

And it's not the FIRST story about abuses in a factory manufacturing Apple products. Quick poll: anyone remember the last one? No? Didn't think so.

Ok, on this board, I'm sure there will be a handful of us that remember it, but the point still stands. How Apple reacts to this will have absolutely no impact on how the majority of people view Apple or it's products because two months from now, nobody will remember this incident.

The average consumer's opinion about Apple is ultimately influenced by whether the product works right and how they are treated by Apple if it doesn't. Done.
post #114 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Do you even have to ask?

Democracy!

People who don't know history or economics are doomed to sound clueless when talking about international trade.

And how do you propose that be accomplished? Should we start an online petition insisting the the Chinese goverment hereto and forthwith act as a democracy? Or do you have a magic wand you'd like to wave?
post #115 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

And how do you propose that be accomplished? Should we start an online petition insisting the the Chinese goverment hereto and forthwith act as a democracy? Or do you have a magic wand you'd like to wave?

You missed my point. My post was sarcastic. It's a joke, that the response to how to fix China's human rights problems is the knee jerk reply, 'democracy.'
post #116 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

The problem is, I've never seen you cite anything. All I've ever seen you do is criticize others for not citing sources, or criticize the source they do cite. Ironically, we are making the same point, which is that living and working conditions for factory workers in China are abominable. Workers are treated as expendable units. This is something most people don't know about China. But I need to cite my source for that, and you don't? Who made that rule?

How can you say that, when my last three posts had specific data on unionization, unemployment, and the Gini coefficient all of which can be specifically looked up? (A couple of those are such obvious data items, and can be easily googled or looked up in a basic source such as the US Statistical Abstract -- I could give it to you if you wish; the Gini coefficient was a more non-obvious one, so I provided the specific cite).

On the issue of Chinese income growth, I specifically said "I'd venture a guess....." and cameronj provided a cite. I was not making a bland assertion like you were. On the issue of urban worker dorms in China and the conditions there, I thought we were both in agreement, so I did not provide a cite. There are literally dozens, but I would recommend one above all: "China Inc." by Ted Fishman (http://www.chinainc-book.com/aboutBook.html). One of the best books on modern urban China's emergence and conditions, in my view. (Incidentally, I would not go far enough to say that workers are "treated like expendable units;" that is again your uncited claim).
post #117 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Do we? Is it? If so, why is it a given?

There's a huge disparity in labor protections and rights in western countries compared to China. It boggles my mind that some think the better standard is their way, not ours. For whatever flaws you might find with our labor laws, with the history of our labor unions, the simple fact remains that we have real labor laws, we have the right to freely unionize, including the right to strike. They don't. That is the underlying issue here. The same could be said for environmental protection, but we don't need to go there.

China and its human rights issues are a matter of public record. It isn't a big secret.

But looking at our OWN attitudes and admitting that our domestic issues are also to blame isn't so easy. Never easy to admit that even we, personally, collectively, are just as much to blame. that might mean rethinking something we take for granted, or worse (apparently), giving something up.

I don't think anyone here said the better standard is China's. Our standards, however, could use some overhaul. And, uncomfortable as it might seem, it really starts with what our expectations are when it comes to "living standards." We can even forget unions for the time being and start with widespread consumer credit abuse and the attitudes and expectations that lead to it. Working outwards from there, we'll eventually hit unions, and then get to the reasons for jobs being shipped overseas. Those reasons include, but are not limited to, Chinese labour laws (or the lack thereof.)
post #118 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Greed on the part of manufacturers is the reason the jobs left.

I would amend that by saying that greed on the part of the shareholders is the reason the jobs left. Public companies have a board of directors who are elected by the shareholders. I've seen companies with missions statement that don't once mention their customers, but include the goal of "maximizing shareholder value".

As long as shareholders insist on maximizing profit, that's what the company is going to do.
post #119 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

The article didn't mention whether the prototype iPhone was ever recovered. Obviously the individual was let go without jailtime since he was able to go up to a roof and jump.

What gives?

Since he was never arrested, how would he have received jail time.
He was held by FoxConn security, not police.
post #120 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by MH01 View Post

You really think taking your life is the easy way out? Cowardly even? Go easy on the poor fella, it takes more guts to go his way.

It's takes more guts to commit suicide therefore he took the harder way out of the situation?
Why would someone intentiaonally choose the more difficult way out of something?
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