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Palm fires back at Apple, fixes Pre sync with iTunes

post #1 of 167
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Just a week after Apple killed the Pre's ability to sync with desktop music management client iTunes, Palm has responded with webOS 1.1 -- a software update that again enables Palm's phone to access media from the current version of iTunes.

Palm announced the update Thursday on the company's blog. Pre users can expect the new software to arrive via an over-the-air update.

"Oh, and one more thing: Palm webOS 1.1 re-enables Palm media sync," the post reads. "Thats right -- you once again can have seamless access to your music, photos and videos from the current version of iTunes (8.2.1)."

Last week, Apple released iTunes 8.2.1. In accompanying release notes, the company was vague about what the upgrade actually did, stating only that the update provided "a number of important bug fixes and addresses an issue with verification of Apple devices."

But soon after the new version of iTunes was released, Pre users realized that the update had broken their ability to sync music with the software.

Beyond iTunes, webOS 1.1 brings a number of updates focused on business users, including remote wipe, inactivity timeout, improved certificate handling and more for Exchange ActiveSync. The update also provides emoticons in the messaging app.

When they unveiled the handset, Palm boasted about their smartphone's ability to transfer media from iTunes. The feature worked by identifying the Pre in its hardware ID as an iPod -- a trick Apple warned might not work for long.

Last month, Apple warned Pre users that future software updates may kill sync capability with the device.

"Apple designs the hardware and software to provide seamless integration of the iPhone and iPod with iTunes, the iTunes Store, and tens of thousands of apps on the App Store," Apple warned a document released in June. "Apple is aware that some third-parties claim that their digital media players are able to sync with Apple software. However, Apple does not provide support for, or test for compatibility with, non-Apple digital media players."

In its blog post, Palm declined to elaborate on how they circumvented the changes presented in iTunes 8.2.1.
post #2 of 167
i'm sure apple has several pre phones to test and figure out how they hacked the itunes thing
why don't they just sue them, its invasion of intellectual property, sure looks like palm is spitting in apples face, seems personal. i can't wait for SJ to fire back, but it will be more than a simple itunes upgrade
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post #3 of 167
Apple should right some sort of virus thing that hits your Pre when you sync it like they wrote the iWork one =P
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post #4 of 167
Palm needs to stop being such rank amateurs and write their own sync software. It was unprofessional of them the first time, when they weren't sure that Apple would stop iTunes from delivering music to them. But now it's almost criminally negligent.
post #5 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

i'm sure apple has several pre phones to test and figure out how they hacked the itunes thing
why don't they just sue them, its invasion of intellectual property, sure looks like palm is spitting in apples face, seems personal. i can't wait for SJ to fire back, but it will be more than a simple itunes upgrade

They used to let 3rd party MP3 players sync with iTunes; now that there aren't any 3rd party MP3 players left on the market, what's the harm in letting the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?
post #6 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

They used to let 3rd party MP3 players sync with iTunes; now that there aren't any 3rd party MP3 players left on the market, what's the harm in letting the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?

What would be the harm in Palm syncing the music themselves, right out of iTunes' library?

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post #7 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

i'm sure apple has several pre phones to test and figure out how they hacked the itunes thing

hardly. and not needed. Palm wasn't too careful to keep the hack a secret.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsNly View Post

Apple should right some sort of virus thing that hits your Pre when you sync it like they wrote the iWork one =P

they didn't write the iwork one. or the photoshop one. and they have better things to do with their time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfisher View Post

Palm needs to stop being such rank amateurs and write their own sync software.

on the one hand, I agree that they need to write their own software. on the other, if they are going to insist on this itunes thing they aren't being very smart. given the popularity of the ipod, why hasn't anyone tried to file an anti-trust suit to stop Apple from being able to tie the itunes software to only their ipods.

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post #8 of 167
If Apple don't have a Pre, I'd be worried. Sticking your head in the sand is the best way to lose out to your competition.
post #9 of 167
It's almost as though they're asking for a (legal) fight.

Regardless, the ball's in Apple's proverbial court.
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post #10 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

given the popularity of the ipod, why hasn't anyone tried to file an anti-trust suit to stop Apple from being able to tie the itunes software to only their ipods.

I think someone has tried that. And it doesn't work, since the iTunes+iPod/iPhone combination doesn't violate any anti-trust laws. It's their software and their hardware, they are free to do as they please. And if customers don't like that, they're free to use different software and hardware.
post #11 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

They used to let 3rd party MP3 players sync with iTunes; now that there aren't any 3rd party MP3 players left on the market, what's the harm in letting the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?

Apple made iTunes for iPod sales.

Apple doesn't make money from the Palm Pre.
post #12 of 167
Too all Pre users.....

You want to use Apple products? BUY AN iPHONE/iPod.

Otherwise stop whining......



I'm tired of people who whine "it's not fair we can't do this" attitude and then hack in. If you pay the premium, you GET THE PREMIUM. Simple as that. Stop being juvenile, Palm. I trashed my Treo years ago because it didn't keep up with the times (mostly software).
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post #13 of 167
If Apple wanted to share the market with someone else they would have done it with their OS. Their formula for success works. They are not going to let Pre in.

Pre should just make their own service or work out a deal with Rhapsody.
post #14 of 167
[QUOTE=NOFEER;1453250
why don't they just sue them, its invasion of intellectual property,[/QUOTE]

So then why doesn't Microsoft sue Apple for reverse engineering NTFS? Reverse engineering is not automatically illegal. The world would be even more dependent to Microsoft otherwise. This just makes Apple look like they're scared or being petty or both.
post #15 of 167
Until Apple breaks Pre syncing AGAIN.

Apple is not bound to support the Palm Pre or any other device.

And who loses out from Palm's idiocy? Pre users. Who gets to feel frustrsted on a regular basis? Pre users. Good work, Palm.
post #16 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

They used to let 3rd party MP3 players sync with iTunes; now that there aren't any 3rd party MP3 players left on the market, what's the harm in letting the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?

If iTunes was only written for Macs, then I'd agree with you that Apple should let their Mac users use the Pre. But since iTunes is also available for the PC, that indicates that iTunes is developed first and foremost for Apple's pocket devices (iPod, iPhone), and Pre is not one of them.

Apple has not precluded its competitors from accessing the same library of songs on a PC or Mac, through development of their own software. Pre should do the honorable thing and just write the software for their Pre (and future WebOS device) owners.

This is childish and puts Palm on the same level of respectability as Real Networks. (I wonder if Jon Rubinstein also disagreed with the way Apple handled Real, and whether that was just another item that signaled his need to be moved out of Apple.)
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post #17 of 167
I think Apple need to be very slightly careful here. Microsoft got into trouble with the anti-trust people, because they were able to do things with an essentially ubiquitous piece of software (Windows) that third parties could not.

In many respects, Apple are doing similar. iTunes is incredibly dominant, and they are using that dominance to tie people to their products. Whilst it's not as bad as what Microsoft were upto, if they are not careful anti-trust people will start sniffing around.
post #18 of 167
Apple is being an A$$! They are worse than Microsoft. They should just tell Palm users "Welcome to the best software for your Pre" and leave it at that. They could even toss up little iPhone ads on the sync screen when you connect a Pre....I would be cool with that. I can't believe the EU is going after MS over IE integration and nobody blinks when Apple won't even let other devices connect to iTunes.

Someone gave my wife a Zen Stone for running last year. It is great and just what she needed but I can't us it with iTunes so I'm left with hacking the music in or shelling out more money for a Shuffle. That is BS. I mean I love Apple products, own quite a few, iPhone(2), Touch, Nano, Mac Minis, MacBook but it pisses me off when another company has a great product and it won't work with an Apple product because of Apple. You suck Apple when it comes to playing fair.
post #19 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Until Apple breaks Pre syncing AGAIN.

Apple is not bound to support the Palm Pre or any other device.

And who loses out from Palm's idiocy? Pre users. Who gets to feel frustrsted on a regular basis? Pre users. Good work, Palm.

I would think that since Apple allows RIM to sync the Blackberry and isn't allowing PALM to sync the PRE it's more a case of very bad for Apple's Image along with slave labor they use to manufacture the phone.

Allow Blackberry
Don't Allow Palm Pre

Can anyone say EU anti Trust?

You are celebrating "PRE" Maturely.
post #20 of 167
This really seems like a stupid plan on Palm's part.

More than half of a new platform like the Pre is convincing people that your company can write amazing software.

It seems to me that the message theyre sending right now is that, although they think theyre good, theres no point in competing with Apple. The best they can do is fasten down, leech-like, and suck as hard as possible, while they can. They expect to get dislodged from time to time, but they also expect to re-attach more firmly someplace else next time--hoping no doubt that with each new place they latch on, theyll be harder to dislodge.

Never mind that theyre callously sacrificing their actual customers to a back and forth of I-can-sync-wait-no-I-cant!

The funny thing is that theyll manage to get a lot of people loudly angry at Apple. Hardly any of their users will actually blame Palm for the inconvenience.

Oh. I see weve got one of those posts already. Didnt take long.

sdfisher has already pointed out that iTunes puts the playlist and song data in an XML file, so Palm should be able to able to sync without using hacks. But they seem to prefer hacks. And thats pretty disappointing. I was hoping we were going to have genuine competition. All we actually got was leeches and ticks. Oh well.
post #21 of 167
Regardless of the arguments for or against Apple's position Palm is doing a disservice to its customers by supplying these hacks. The tit-for-tat battle back and forth will eventually leave a bad taste in the mouths of Pre owners, and they won't be mad at Apple. They will blame Palm. Palm should respect Apple's wishes in this matter. Hackers providing patches to jailbreak or modify proprietary software is one thing. A major corporation doing it on its flagship product is another thing altogether. It makes them look stupid and incompetent.
post #22 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

they didn't write the iwork one. or the photoshop one. and they have better things to do with their time.

Ever heard or sarcasm?
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post #23 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

They used to let 3rd party MP3 players sync with iTunes; now that there aren't any 3rd party MP3 players left on the market, what's the harm in letting the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?

Exactly.

Apple was more than happy to develop iTunes for PC's, since it was a way to help gain them market share by drawing people to buying iPods, and then to Mac computers themselves.

Now, however, Apple is becoming the control-freak 'Big Brother' company...the kind of company that they used to be fighting against. I applaud those who are taking on 'Big Brother' -- everyone from Palm in this case, to companies like Psystar. Apple is getting too haughty and needs to be humbled.
post #24 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Exactly.
Now, however, Apple is becoming the control-freak 'Big Brother' company...the kind of company that they used to be fighting against. I applaud those who are taking on 'Big Brother' -- everyone from Palm in this case, to companies like Psystar. Apple is getting too haughty and needs to be humbled.

Why should Apple spend THEIR money on making sure 3rd party products work with THEIR products while SOMEONE ELSE makes the money that would be paying for that checking?
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post #25 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post

This really seems like a stupid plan on Palm's part.

Yup. Palm should just ship SongBird with the Pre.
post #26 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

I would think that since Apple allows RIM to sync the Blackberry and isn't allowing PALM to sync the PRE it's more a case of very bad for Apple's Image along with slave labor they use to manufacture the phone.

BlackBerry offers an application. You download it. It syncs. All legitimate.

Pre tricks iTunes into syncing to it by cheating on USB identifiers (and who knows what else).

You don't see the difference here? Please tell me you're joking. It's a HUGE difference on a technical level. Apple isn't stopping Palm from creating their own software, it's stopping them from tricking Apple's software.

It's unbelievable that Palm took this approach to begin with, but still crazier that they haven't given it up in favor of something reliable, legitimate and ethical.
post #27 of 167
The Blackberry does not sync directly to iTunes. It has its own desktop software. It doesn't masquerade as an iPod/iPhone.
post #28 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Yup. Palm should just ship SongBird with the Pre.

Maybe Apple should give an AppleTV with every iPhone. That and SongBird were both huge money makers.
post #29 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post

But they seem to prefer hacks. And thats pretty disappointing. I was hoping we were going to have genuine competition. All we actually got was leeches and ticks. Oh well.

I really want Palm to succeed, too. I was a Palm developer for many years. But they really need to step it up and take the battle out of their users' devices.
post #30 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

The Blackberry does not sync directly to iTunes. It has its own desktop software. It doesn't masquerade as an iPod/iPhone.

That's not the point. Microsoft had to allow other Browsers on their Operating System. Apple has become Microsoft. Biil Gates Gives to Charity and Steve buys Livers.

Who's the evil one.
post #31 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

I would think that since Apple allows RIM to sync the Blackberry and isn't allowing PALM to sync the PRE it's more a case of very bad for Apple's Image along with slave labor they use to manufacture the phone.

Allow Blackberry
Don't Allow Palm Pre

Can anyone say EU anti Trust?

You are celebrating "PRE" Maturely.

Once again, you're incredibly misinformed.

The breaking of Pre syncing didn't hurt Apple's image before, and it won't hurt it again, and again, and again.

What makes or breaks Apple's "image" is the strength of its products, and how the customer is treated when something goes wrong. That's where it begins and ends. And their image has never been better.

And whatever "slave labour" issues Apple has, were uncovered by Apple's OWN investigation, instigated of their OWN accord. And it isn't "slave labour", either. That's just your rhetoric intended to spread FUD. In fact, the issue makes them look completely diligent and ethically responsible.
post #32 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

That's not the point. Microsoft had to allow other Browsers on their Operating System. Apple has become Microsoft. Biil Gates Gives to Charity and Steve buys Livers.

Who's the evil one.



WTF??? Seriously?

You didn't even say how they were like Microsoft?

And allowing other software onto and operating system is a big difference from what is going on here.
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post #33 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfisher View Post

Palm needs to stop being such rank amateurs and write their own sync software. It was unprofessional of them the first time, when they weren't sure that Apple would stop iTunes from delivering music to them. But now it's almost criminally negligent.

i concur! in all fairness to Apple, iTunes is its property – its creation specifically designed to support Apple's hardware. the response from Palm is out of character - unprofessional. Palm has position itself as a hacker instead of an innovative company capable of creating its own software to support its hardware. an innovative company was what i've always thought of Palm, but now i'm doubtful of its ability to compete fairly, and certainly not at the expense of its Pre owners. Pre owners would expect Palm to create its own Pre software (just as elegant as the Pre) to sync between devices.

this is too bad for Palm. what a shame to waste company's resources and reputation on hacking then to spend them on innovation.
post #34 of 167
I think Apple should do to these LEECHES what they deserve; sue them or break them.

Palm cannot piggyback on Apple's years of research and development. Rubinstein and the other traitors he recruited from Apple are responsible for this treachery. It is time to call in the lawyers and the programmers/softwares engineers, to fight this war from both ends, until Palm is crushed.

No piggybacking Palm! Get your shit together before coming out for the big show!
post #35 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

That's not the point. Microsoft had to allow other Browsers on their Operating System. Apple has become Microsoft. Biil Gates Gives to Charity and Steve buys Livers.

Who's the evil one.

No one is "evil."

Apple's legal position re monopoly has already been ruled on several times in the US, and once already ibh the EU (though the EU ruling was on pricing issues.) The iTunes issue has been decided years ago in the US.

But if you want to keep dreaming up hypotheticl events and make wild predicitons, hey, knock yourself out.

MS' problems are of an entirely different nature. And they're not new. Wishing for Apple to get into trouble a la MS does not, and will not, make it so.

And Bill Gates' charitable donatins have nothing to do with any of this. And SJ didn't "buy" his liver. Unless you can prove otherwise. But I'm sure in your head there's already an imaginary investigation going on and Steve is scheduled to take the stand tomorow.
post #36 of 167
The Pre hitching a ride off of Apple's iTunes coat tails is like your neighbor having the nerve to ask you to wash his car just after your done doing yours.


Palm should be carrying their own weight and not relying upon another companies product.

Of course if they come up with something BETTER than iTunes...then Apple has a problem.
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post #37 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

I think Apple should do to these LEECHES what they deserve; sue them or break them.

Palm cannot piggyback on Apple's years of research and development. Rubinstein and the other traitors he recruited from Apple are responsible for this treachery. It is time to call in the lawyers and the programmers/softwares engineers, to fight this war from both ends, until Palm is crushed.

No piggybacking Palm! Get your shit together before coming out for the big show!

Oh I completely agree with your attitude. But it might be better to simply continue brdeaking Pre syncing with iTunes updates. Hey, they're just "updates" after all, right? Apple's first priority is iTunes and OS X functionality, and if it breaks Pre syncing, oh well . . . Apple isn't responsible.
post #38 of 167
Apple has no obligation what so ever to support the Pre.

Palm should be able to piggy back off iTunes if they please (same with any third party if they can figure it out themselves) Apple doesn't have to (nor should they) support them.


At the same time, Apple really shows their true colors when they make updates that specifically break a Non-Apple device. They shouldn't care that much. Its like the kid who specifically doesn't invite people to their party just to be hurtful because too many people picked on them. Not a good way to play.

If Apple's products are really as good as most on this site tout, then the Pre should be no competition right? Or is the fact Apple is making these updates actually acknowledging "Wait, we really do have TRUE competition!" and so aren't as "Top Notch" as this community usually perceives them?

This really reminds me of the Hackintosh debate. Same tactics. And this is why I encourage people to not buy Apple. Go Linux!


Also: iTunes is free software, right? (On Mac AND Windows too!) Second, the more people who use iTunes, the more who can buy off iTunes, thus actually supporting Apple right? (Even on a Windows machine!) So where does Apple have to loose here? If they do backhanded things like break Non-Apple iTunes syncing, they aren't helping themselves any, only loosing customers (myself included).
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post #39 of 167
This is an interesting battle Palm is picking. If nothing else, its definitely exposure of the Pre to more and more users.

I don't think Palm is doing their customers justice for claiming iTunes compatibility, and I do wonder about the legality of their actions. But hey, being a lover of all things open, I kinda like seeing a big player take some jabs at Apple. This is going to make for some great stories in the future ^_^.

Disclosure: I own an iPhone, not Pre. My contract with AT&T is coming near the end, however, and with the Pre and HTC Hero on the market, I may be open to something new...
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post #40 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfisher View Post

What would be the harm in Palm syncing the music themselves, right out of iTunes' library?

I don't know, but I thought you had an excellent point in comments on another article on AI. You mentioned that all the elements necessary for Palm to write its own conduit were freely accessible.

I think the harm is partly just the greasy feel this all has. It feels like a hack.

Plus, if you make it okay for other MP3 players to link to your software, it acquires a certain feature-immobility. If 3rd party connections are sanctified and made legitimate, then every time Apple wants to change iTunes, it has to do extra testing to ensure compatibility (which isn't fair to Apple). And whenever a 3rd party does something that breaks iTunes, Apple would get the blame. Where's the upside for them? --Besides the obvious upside that this kind of fight is a distraction associated with a certain cost, and that surrendering would thereby save that cost.

But is this so very different from the eternal fight against hackers in general? Hackers never go away. It's like any kind of security. Yes, it's a diversion of resources you wished you could spend elsewhere. But if you don't do it, it's not like the bad guys relent.

And maybe THAT'S the point. If people hack your stuff and you don't try and stop them, they're not satisfied with that. Giving them a pass just emboldens them. And people asinine enough to make one hack are likely to think of another. Remember that when you save yourself the effort of fighting a hacker, you also save THEM the effort of regaining their lost position. So you spend your money on something else, and so do they. And now there's two hacks you have to worry about. (Maybe Palm isn't like that, but there's not a lot of reason right now to cut them that kind of slack, seems to me).

If you resist enough, perhaps Palm will ask the matching question: "Wouldn't it just be easier to actually write the conduit we should have written in the beginning?"
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